Noticed Arch asking a question on one of the pay-to-play sites, don't know
if he still reads here. If so, Lyn had some remarks (surprise!) on a
random-orbit experiment which should turn up in a "sanding" search. Think
it was one of those European models like Festool with the big price tags he
commented on.

Then saw a "Norm" thread.

There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper. Hit me especially
because I had just had Susan Who Must Be Obeyed take some dynamic pictures
for my personal page. Among others, it shows the 1 1/2" roughing gouge,
1/2" spindle gouge, and, yes, even a "bowl" gouge working a bowl. I even
included a couple of close-ups to show the surface finish produced by the
gouges. Thirty-three percent isn't bad, I guess, but why are the others
wrong?

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

Whatta you think, Arch?

In article ,
"George" wrote:

There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper.

There are those who believe this, and those at tool companies who worked
hard to get them to believe this, but it just ain't so.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that
allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

I think Richard Raffan is a good example of this. He spent a few years
teaching himself to turn. It appears that in addition to just plain
technique, he worked hard at improving his efficiency. I have three of his
videos and firmly believe he would use his car keys to turn if it helped
getting the job done better and faster. His (well not really his) method of
back hollowing is an example of going against conventional techniques. In
his bowl turning video he uses both a skew and a spindle gouge.

In fact, I'm not sure his videos are the best for beginners. His techniques
and abilities are so far beyond most of us that is impossible for the
beginner to emulate him. Best to start with sound methods and then advance
to what works best for you. You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.

Harry

Harry B. Pye wrote: (clip) You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I can remember when the educators thought that you could not learn
arithmetic without understanding higher math first. What a disaster.

Its interesting that you should say that. One of my first bowls that I
turned app. 20 years ago was with a spindle gouge, skew chisel and
parting tool - all to hollow it out. That was befor " I KNEW BETTER". I
still use this bowl today

Harry B. Pye wrote:

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that

allows

"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?


I think Richard Raffan is a good example of this. He spent a few years
teaching himself to turn. It appears that in addition to just plain
technique, he worked hard at improving his efficiency. I have three of his
videos and firmly believe he would use his car keys to turn if it helped
getting the job done better and faster. His (well not really his) method of
back hollowing is an example of going against conventional techniques. In
his bowl turning video he uses both a skew and a spindle gouge.

In fact, I'm not sure his videos are the best for beginners. His techniques
and abilities are so far beyond most of us that is impossible for the
beginner to emulate him. Best to start with sound methods and then advance
to what works best for you. You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.

Harry

Your darn right, Ecnerwal.

Seem to recall someone saying "there's another sucker born every day"
and those that profit from it will try to keep it that way !!

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
"George" wrote:


There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper.


There are those who believe this, and those at tool companies who worked
hard to get them to believe this, but it just ain't so.

...........and if "old Richard" did actually use his "car keys" as turning
tools, at least two of the big name companies would be offering similar "car
keys" in several varieties of stainless steel and powdered metal within a
month.............Barry



"Harry B. Pye" wrote in message
groups.com...
OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that
allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

I think Richard Raffan is a good example of this. He spent a few years
teaching himself to turn. It appears that in addition to just plain
technique, he worked hard at improving his efficiency. I have three of his
videos and firmly believe he would use his car keys to turn if it helped
getting the job done better and faster. His (well not really his) method
of
back hollowing is an example of going against conventional techniques. In
his bowl turning video he uses both a skew and a spindle gouge.

In fact, I'm not sure his videos are the best for beginners. His
techniques
and abilities are so far beyond most of us that is impossible for the
beginner to emulate him. Best to start with sound methods and then advance
to what works best for you. You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.

Harry

And I thought a 1/2" round nose was a hollowing tool for several years.
Barry

PS Actually, it is a pretty danged good hollowing tool! :-)

"Ralph Fedorak" wrote in message
news:OnBTb.8897$7O2.3476@edtnps89...
Its interesting that you should say that. One of my first bowls that I
turned app. 20 years ago was with a spindle gouge, skew chisel and
parting tool - all to hollow it out. That was befor " I KNEW BETTER". I
still use this bowl today

Harry B. Pye wrote:

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that

allows

"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?


I think Richard Raffan is a good example of this. He spent a few years
teaching himself to turn. It appears that in addition to just plain
technique, he worked hard at improving his efficiency. I have three of
his
videos and firmly believe he would use his car keys to turn if it helped
getting the job done better and faster. His (well not really his) method
of
back hollowing is an example of going against conventional techniques.
In
his bowl turning video he uses both a skew and a spindle gouge.

In fact, I'm not sure his videos are the best for beginners. His
techniques
and abilities are so far beyond most of us that is impossible for the
beginner to emulate him. Best to start with sound methods and then
advance
to what works best for you. You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.

Harry

There is no doubt that better lathes, better tools, and better techniques
can all contribute to more efficient turning. But we should not get caught
up in the idea that it is the ONLY way.
I spent five years teaching myself all the wrong ways to sharpen and use
tools before I discovered that there were instructions available. I still
use many of the old methods which seem natural.
I have several other turning friends in the area. One turns only on a home
made lathe powered by a belt sander. It looks like something out of Fred
Sanford's front yard. He owns only a very cheap set of Chinese turning
tools.
One has an old Sears lathe and uses only a large screwdriver as a turning
tool.
One has a 'Big Momma' Oneway lathe and probably as much money tied up in
turning tools as he does in the lathe.
Guess which one of us consistently turns out the shoddiest work.
A bunch of years ago, I saw a sign in an automotive repair shop that very
aptly captures the essence of workmanship,
"A determined man with one rusty wrench can do more work than a slackard
with a box
full of tools."

Ron Robinson
East Texas

"Ralph Fedorak" wrote in message
news:OnBTb.8897$7O2.3476@edtnps89...
Its interesting that you should say that. One of my first bowls that I
turned app. 20 years ago was with a spindle gouge, skew chisel and
parting tool - all to hollow it out. That was befor " I KNEW BETTER". I
still use this bowl today

Harry B. Pye wrote:
========================================
Hi,
Sounds like the lesson to learn here is to learn how to use any tools you
have available, then if have funds available, you may want to upgrade. Just
don't expect to get better results just because you got better tools. They
still have to be operated in a competent manner to produce an acceptable end
product. I've seen screwdrivers, files, wires, nails, saw blades, and wood
chisels (I use a 3/8 wood chisel as a bedan on a regular basis) used for
turning tools with great results.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

I can remember when they were "teachers."

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

Harry B. Pye wrote: (clip) You can't learn higher mathematics without
understanding arithmetic.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I can remember when the educators thought that you could not learn
arithmetic without understanding higher math first. What a disaster.

Ron,
You said a mouthful I'm the guy with the sears and the patience to make
it work.
Good turning
Ed S.
Ron Robinson wrote:

There is no doubt that better lathes, better tools, and better techniques
can all contribute to more efficient turning. But we should not get caught
up in the idea that it is the ONLY way.
I spent five years teaching myself all the wrong ways to sharpen and use
tools before I discovered that there were instructions available. I still
use many of the old methods which seem natural.
I have several other turning friends in the area. One turns only on a home
made lathe powered by a belt sander. It looks like something out of Fred
Sanford's front yard. He owns only a very cheap set of Chinese turning
tools.
One has an old Sears lathe and uses only a large screwdriver as a turning
tool.
One has a 'Big Momma' Oneway lathe and probably as much money tied up in
turning tools as he does in the lathe.
Guess which one of us consistently turns out the shoddiest work.
A bunch of years ago, I saw a sign in an automotive repair shop that very
aptly captures the essence of workmanship,
"A determined man with one rusty wrench can do more work than a slackard
with a box
full of tools."

Ron Robinson
East Texas

Is it only design that allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?


I think that without personal styles of tool use, there would
be very little advancement in tool design.
Look at a bowl gouge and all the different shapes.
Watch how R Raffan uses the skew, and how his is shaped.
Open up any turning tool catalog and see all the tool designs
that carry someones name.
Being self taught, with the aid of a few books and videos I've found
that some tools have a lot of different uses. The more I turn,
the more uses I find for some.

After watching two turners demonstrate spindle turning at an AAW
Symposium, there styles of turning and the tools they used were
as different as night and day. Both were accepted as being correct
methods of turning. One used gouges,skews and a parting tool.
The other used only a parting tool and a small 1/4" scraper.

I discovered that I had been using a 1/8" parting tool in much the same
way as one of these turners. Though I never saw it used this way
in any of the books or videos. And all the time thinking that I was using
it wrong.
Personal styles of tool use, yes there's no dought in my mind.
By the way one of my favorites is ,
The Robert Sorby Oval Skew Shear Scrapper.
Jim

Is it only design that allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?


I think that without personal styles of tool use, there would
be very little advancement in tool design.
Look at a bowl gouge and all the different shapes.
Watch how R Raffan uses the skew, and how his is shaped.
Open up any turning tool catalog and see all the tool designs
that carry someones name.
Being self taught, with the aid of a few books and videos I've found
that some tools have a lot of different uses. The more I turn,
the more uses I find for some.

After watching two turners demonstrate spindle turning at an AAW
Symposium, there styles of turning and the tools they used were
as different as night and day. Both were accepted as being correct
methods of turning. One used gouges,skews and a parting tool.
The other used only a parting tool and a small 1/4" scraper.

I discovered that I had been using a 1/8" parting tool in much the same
way as one of these turners. Though I never saw it used this way
in any of the books or videos. And all the time thinking that I was using
it wrong.
Personal styles of tool use, yes there's no dought in my mind.
By the way one of my favorites is ,
The Robert Sorby Oval Skew Shear Scrapper.
Jim

I thought to give you fellows a little respite from my posting overload.
but I see that my name is part of a thread's subject and that I was
asked a question. George, my answer remains my tired old opinion:
There are no rules and no always or nevers in woodturning, Don't be a
slave to other's insistance for "A better way" .
Regards to all, Arch

(Reviewed and cleared for unintended insult misperception.)

Fortiter,

You're not getting away that easy, Arch! Where have you been!?

Leif
"Arch" wrote in message
...
I thought to give you fellows a little respite from my posting overload.
but I see that my name is part of a thread's subject and that I was
asked a question. George, my answer remains my tired old opinion:
There are no rules and no always or nevers in woodturning, Don't be a
slave to other's insistance for "A better way" .
Regards to all, Arch

(Reviewed and cleared for unintended insult misperception.)

Fortiter,

Hey Leif, To answer your thinly veiled insult, [ G G G G G G G G G G G
G & more G's not to mention a plethora of TIC's and excess 's ] I
got herself's permission to run & play outside, bought a Jet-mini and
have been turning happily out on the deck in the Florida sun. I had
considered returning to the ng as
"ASSUMMA BEN LOONEY" but I'm glad I didn't. Owen would have tracked me
down, and I'm already one of his usual suspects. More G's, 's &
TIC's, Owen!

Your partner (in crime) Arch

Fortiter,

All,

Not knowing who the new turners are that are reading this thread, I am
always a little cautious in these kinds of discussions because even though
tools can be used flexibly, there are limits to what they can do safely. To
say, for example, that it is OK to use a roughing gouge on a bowl, is
dangerous for a new turner who doesn't understand the design limitations of
that tool such as how its grind could be dangerous inside a bowl, or how the
tang of the tool can be easily snapped if the tool is used too far over the
toolrest.. Consequently, I would offer this comment.

A turning tool is designed to present a cutting edge or a scraping edge to
the wood in a limited range of orientations, such that the cut/scrape can be
accomplished easily, efficiently and safely. Taken at its core, what does
this mean? It means that every tool has a "sweet spot" of operation. It
also means that many tools can be operated beyond their "normal" range of
operation by compromising a little on the ease, efficiency or the safety.

For example, someone mentioned Raffan using a spindle gouge during bowl
turning. Two comments on this. First, he uses a "shallow fluted" gouge,
not a "spindle" gouge. This is only a naming convention (exact same tool),
but his point is that the tools are flexible if used safely. He also refers
to a "bowl" gouge as a "deep fluted" gouge. Again, he doesn't allow a
naming convention limit the tool's usefulness. Second, when using the
shallow fluted tool, he doesn't over-reach the toolrest such that the wood
gains more leverage than the turner.

For a beginner, I recommend that they use the tools for the designations as
they are named. As you learn about tool design: strengths and weaknesses,
you can start to safely relax the operating range limits that are
customarily placed on these tools. I also recommend that new turners do not
allow their own fugality to prevent them from buying tools to accomplish
their goals. If you are too cheap to buy the appropriate tool, your
frugality will "force" you out of the customary sweet spots for your tools
and potentially into dangerous situations.

On the flip side, my experience is that most people gain this experience
through trial and error as well as formal training/education. In other
words, the more you know, the cheaper you can be because you are making
intelligent decisions in regard to tool usage.

Great discussion!

Joe Fleming - San Diego
===========================



"George" wrote in message
...
Noticed Arch asking a question on one of the pay-to-play sites, don't know
if he still reads here. If so, Lyn had some remarks (surprise!) on a
random-orbit experiment which should turn up in a "sanding" search. Think
it was one of those European models like Festool with the big price tags
he
commented on.

Then saw a "Norm" thread.

There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper. Hit me
especially
because I had just had Susan Who Must Be Obeyed take some dynamic pictures
for my personal page. Among others, it shows the 1 1/2" roughing gouge,
1/2" spindle gouge, and, yes, even a "bowl" gouge working a bowl. I even
included a couple of close-ups to show the surface finish produced by the
gouges. Thirty-three percent isn't bad, I guess, but why are the others
wrong?

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that
allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

Whatta you think, Arch?

You bring up a point about basic knowledge versus tool knowledge.

Kids always give the "shucks and shuffle" when I begin with the obvious,
that you never let the tool get the leverage, or your body get in the line
of fire, but it never stopped me (surprise) from reviewing and demanding
compliance when I saw incorrect operation.

I think that tools of all sorts are important, but the sort of thing you do
with all tools is more so.

If you turn downhill and down grain, and let the wood come to the tool, not
force the tool to the wood, you'll be a better turner with the proverbial
screwdriver than the guy who suits up to the protective nines, grabs a Texas
size whatever, and attacks a rapidly spinning piece of wood.

Oh yeah, if it seems too fast for you - it is.

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
...


A turning tool is designed to present a cutting edge or a scraping edge to
the wood in a limited range of orientations, such that the cut/scrape can
be
accomplished easily, efficiently and safely. Taken at its core, what does
this mean? It means that every tool has a "sweet spot" of operation. It
also means that many tools can be operated beyond their "normal" range of
operation by compromising a little on the ease, efficiency or the safety.

Joe Fleming wrote:
All,

Not knowing who the new turners are that are reading this thread, I am
always a little cautious in these kinds of discussions because even though
tools can be used flexibly, there are limits to what they can do safely. To
say, for example, that it is OK to use a roughing gouge on a bowl, is
dangerous for a new turner who doesn't understand the design limitations of
that tool such as how its grind could be dangerous inside a bowl, or how the
tang of the tool can be easily snapped if the tool is used too far over the
toolrest.. Consequently, I would offer this comment.

A turning tool is designed to present a cutting edge or a scraping edge to
the wood in a limited range of orientations, such that the cut/scrape can be
accomplished easily, efficiently and safely. Taken at its core, what does
this mean? It means that every tool has a "sweet spot" of operation. It
also means that many tools can be operated beyond their "normal" range of
operation by compromising a little on the ease, efficiency or the safety.

For example, someone mentioned Raffan using a spindle gouge during bowl
turning. Two comments on this. First, he uses a "shallow fluted" gouge,
not a "spindle" gouge. This is only a naming convention (exact same tool),
but his point is that the tools are flexible if used safely. He also refers
to a "bowl" gouge as a "deep fluted" gouge. Again, he doesn't allow a
naming convention limit the tool's usefulness. Second, when using the
shallow fluted tool, he doesn't over-reach the toolrest such that the wood
gains more leverage than the turner.

For a beginner, I recommend that they use the tools for the designations as
they are named. As you learn about tool design: strengths and weaknesses,
you can start to safely relax the operating range limits that are
customarily placed on these tools. I also recommend that new turners do not
allow their own fugality to prevent them from buying tools to accomplish
their goals. If you are too cheap to buy the appropriate tool, your
frugality will "force" you out of the customary sweet spots for your tools
and potentially into dangerous situations.

On the flip side, my experience is that most people gain this experience
through trial and error as well as formal training/education. In other
words, the more you know, the cheaper you can be because you are making
intelligent decisions in regard to tool usage.

Great discussion!

Joe Fleming - San Diego
===========================



"George" wrote in message
...

Noticed Arch asking a question on one of the pay-to-play sites, don't know
if he still reads here. If so, Lyn had some remarks (surprise!) on a
random-orbit experiment which should turn up in a "sanding" search. Think
it was one of those European models like Festool with the big price tags

he

commented on.

Then saw a "Norm" thread.

There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper. Hit me

especially

because I had just had Susan Who Must Be Obeyed take some dynamic pictures
for my personal page. Among others, it shows the 1 1/2" roughing gouge,
1/2" spindle gouge, and, yes, even a "bowl" gouge working a bowl. I even
included a couple of close-ups to show the surface finish produced by the
gouges. Thirty-three percent isn't bad, I guess, but why are the others
wrong?

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that

allows

"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

Whatta you think, Arch?

In article .net,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:

A man of few words, eh Lyn?

Joe Fleming wrote:
SNIP
For a beginner, I recommend that they use the tools for the designations as
they are named. As you learn about tool design: strengths and weaknesses,
you can start to safely relax the operating range limits that are
customarily placed on these tools. I also recommend that new turners do not
allow their own fugality to prevent them from buying tools to accomplish
their goals. If you are too cheap to buy the appropriate tool, your
frugality will "force" you out of the customary sweet spots for your tools
and potentially into dangerous situations.

On the flip side, my experience is that most people gain this experience
through trial and error as well as formal training/education. In other
words, the more you know, the cheaper you can be because you are making
intelligent decisions in regard to tool usage.

Joe, these two paragraphs are excellent comments and advice. It's only
after having a knowledge of the rotational forces and various aspects of
removing wood can one safely and confidently experiment with
non-traditional methods and tool use.

_____
American Association of Woodturners
Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon
Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon
_____

oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside of my
bowls

All,

Not knowing who the new turners are that are reading this thread, I am
always a little cautious in these kinds of discussions because even though
tools can be used flexibly, there are limits to what they can do safely. To
say, for example, that it is OK to use a roughing gouge on a bowl, is
dangerous for a new turner who doesn't understand the design limitations of
that tool such as how its grind could be dangerous inside a bowl, or how the
tang of the tool can be easily snapped if the tool is used too far over the
toolrest.. Consequently, I would offer this comment.

A turning tool is designed to present a cutting edge or a scraping edge to
the wood in a limited range of orientations, such that the cut/scrape can be
accomplished easily, efficiently and safely. Taken at its core, what does
this mean? It means that every tool has a "sweet spot" of operation. It
also means that many tools can be operated beyond their "normal" range of
operation by compromising a little on the ease, efficiency or the safety.

For example, someone mentioned Raffan using a spindle gouge during bowl
turning. Two comments on this. First, he uses a "shallow fluted" gouge,
not a "spindle" gouge. This is only a naming convention (exact same tool),
but his point is that the tools are flexible if used safely. He also refers
to a "bowl" gouge as a "deep fluted" gouge. Again, he doesn't allow a
naming convention limit the tool's usefulness. Second, when using the
shallow fluted tool, he doesn't over-reach the toolrest such that the wood
gains more leverage than the turner.

For a beginner, I recommend that they use the tools for the designations as
they are named. As you learn about tool design: strengths and weaknesses,
you can start to safely relax the operating range limits that are
customarily placed on these tools. I also recommend that new turners do not
allow their own fugality to prevent them from buying tools to accomplish
their goals. If you are too cheap to buy the appropriate tool, your
frugality will "force" you out of the customary sweet spots for your tools
and potentially into dangerous situations.

On the flip side, my experience is that most people gain this experience
through trial and error as well as formal training/education. In other
words, the more you know, the cheaper you can be because you are making
intelligent decisions in regard to tool usage.

Great discussion!

Joe Fleming - San Diego
===========================



"George" wrote in message
...
Noticed Arch asking a question on one of the pay-to-play sites, don't know
if he still reads here. If so, Lyn had some remarks (surprise!) on a
random-orbit experiment which should turn up in a "sanding" search. Think
it was one of those European models like Festool with the big price tags
he
commented on.

Then saw a "Norm" thread.

There, in a conflict-free forum, is the old "use the tool properly"
statement. One participant even intimated that a turner couldn't develop
properly without restricting tool use to what was proper. Hit me
especially
because I had just had Susan Who Must Be Obeyed take some dynamic pictures
for my personal page. Among others, it shows the 1 1/2" roughing gouge,
1/2" spindle gouge, and, yes, even a "bowl" gouge working a bowl. I even
included a couple of close-ups to show the surface finish produced by the
gouges. Thirty-three percent isn't bad, I guess, but why are the others
wrong?

OK, so here's the question - did you ever develop beyond the ordinary by
following conventional wisdom? Can anyone? Is it only design that
allows
"style," or can there be personal styles of tool use?

Whatta you think, Arch?

No, I don't think so. If you're not chewing beech or chasing chunks across
the floor, you've got a proper sense of caution. I'd only recommend it on
the outside, though

I think the insight that: "A turning tool is designed to present a cutting
edge or a scraping edge to the wood in a limited range of orientations, such
that the cut/scrape can be accomplished easily, efficiently and safely.
Taken at its core, what does this mean? It means that every tool has a
"sweet spot" of operation."

Was overwhelmed by a few bitter experiences or comfortable conventional
wisdom.

I don't believe there is _a_ sweet spot on _a_ type of tool for all
operations and configurations, because there are right and left hand cuts,
concave and convex, face and long grain ... well, you get the picture. Not
to mention that the number of tools available to do the same job, and
turners still trying for more, is the best indication there isn't even a
perfect tool for a particular job, much less technique.

The observations, before they wander away, are observations that bad tool
practice can be dangerous with _any_ tool. Tool rest too far is not a
comment on the suitability of the tool, but the carelessness of the
operator. Tool presented at the wrong angle (out of the "sweet spot") is
also not the fault of the tool, though, I'll bet a lot of folks have found a
heck of a lot more sweet spots on a gouge - or not, which is why they grind
'em funny - than I have, and it wasn't by presenting "the" proper tool for
"the" conventional reason. After seeming to object, Joe does return to
experience, both individual and vicarious, as the best teacher.

It's sort of like when I went to pour my first concrete. I read, pestered
and questioned, and discovered the consensus that sometimes concrete cracks,
sometimes it doesn't. While there are bad practices which will guarantee
failure, there are no practices which will guarantee success.

"Reyd Dorakeen" wrote in message
...
oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside of
my
bowls

Even there it's 6KB.

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article .net,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:

A man of few words, eh Lyn?

George,

We are violently agreeing on this topic. My whole point is that in a forum
like this, we can't control the audience. In other words, a novice turner
may read a discussion of tool use between to experienced turners who are
doing rather unconventional things. As an experienced turner, I feel that I
am obligated to provide appropriate caveats so that the novice lurker, etc.
understands my frame of reference. I know that in an open forum like this,
the reader is on his or her own to try to measure the validity of others'
statements. I just prefer to be very clear so as not to confuse someone who
doesn't yet have enough knowledge to evaluate what I am saying.

And, for the record, I use spindle gouges on bowls and hollow forms; bowl
gouges on spindles; scrapers everywhere; parting tools, beading tools,
skews, X-Acto knives, dental picks and allen wrenches as scrapers; I hollow
some vessels with spindle gouges; and, for between center work, I use my
chuck as a driver instead of a drive spur most of the time. For anyone out
there that doesn't know how to do these things safely: DON'T, until you
have someone explain the risk and rewards. In all these cases, FOR ME, they
provide speed, expediency, or an unusual cut. I just don't openly discuss
these techniques unless I know the audience.

See further comments below:

Again - great discussion!

"George" wrote in message
...
No, I don't think so. If you're not chewing beech or chasing chunks
across
the floor, you've got a proper sense of caution. I'd only recommend it on
the outside, though

I think the insight that: "A turning tool is designed to present a
cutting
edge or a scraping edge to the wood in a limited range of orientations,
such
that the cut/scrape can be accomplished easily, efficiently and safely.
Taken at its core, what does this mean? It means that every tool has a
"sweet spot" of operation."

Was overwhelmed by a few bitter experiences or comfortable conventional
wisdom.

I don't believe there is _a_ sweet spot on _a_ type of tool for all
operations and configurations, because there are right and left hand cuts,
concave and convex, face and long grain ... well, you get the picture.
Not
to mention that the number of tools available to do the same job, and
turners still trying for more, is the best indication there isn't even a
perfect tool for a particular job, much less technique.

jf While I believe that every tool has a range of capabilities, there are
things you can't do with those same tools. You refer to this as operator
error and I agree. My point is that to describe the use of a non-typical
tool for a particular cut is risky because a novice turner probably doesn't
have the tool or turning knowledge to determine what is safe and what is
not. Rather than telling them that tool X can do a job without explaining
the pitfalls, I would error on the side of caution. On the other side,
there are cuts that no tool does easily. In these cases, a fundamental
knowledge of woodturning dynamics and tools will help a turner select the
best tool to do the job.

The observations, before they wander away, are observations that bad tool
practice can be dangerous with _any_ tool. Tool rest too far is not a
comment on the suitability of the tool, but the carelessness of the
operator. Tool presented at the wrong angle (out of the "sweet spot") is
also not the fault of the tool, though, I'll bet a lot of folks have found
a
heck of a lot more sweet spots on a gouge - or not, which is why they
grind
'em funny - than I have, and it wasn't by presenting "the" proper tool for
"the" conventional reason. After seeming to object, Joe does return to
experience, both individual and vicarious, as the best teacher.

jf Again, we are agreeing here. My point is that a novice turner, for
example, may read someone in this forum talking about using a rouging gouge
for bowls. In this whole thread, however, the people that have stated this
use have never provide caveats like: "only on the outside of the bowl", or
"only with the wings ground back", or " only when I could get the tool rest
close enough".

It's sort of like when I went to pour my first concrete. I read, pestered
and questioned, and discovered the consensus that sometimes concrete
cracks,
sometimes it doesn't. While there are bad practices which will guarantee
failure, there are no practices which will guarantee success.

"Reyd Dorakeen" wrote in message
...
oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside
of
my
bowls

I meant it, i used it inside, the front flat, not ground back wing, and i
was doing it for the extra length(I was far over the rest for the other
tools)

jf Again, we are agreeing here. My point is that a novice turner, for
example, may read someone in this forum talking about using a rouging gouge
for bowls. In this whole thread, however, the people that have stated this
use have never provide caveats like: "only on the outside of the bowl", or
"only with the wings ground back", or " only when I could get the tool rest
close enough".


oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside
of
my
bowls

Now I understand. It's about "the children...."

"Reyd Dorakeen" wrote in message
...
I meant it, i used it inside, the front flat, not ground back wing, and i
was doing it for the extra length(I was far over the rest for the other
tools)

jf Again, we are agreeing here. My point is that a novice turner,
for
example, may read someone in this forum talking about using a rouging
gouge
for bowls. In this whole thread, however, the people that have stated
this
use have never provide caveats like: "only on the outside of the bowl",
or
"only with the wings ground back", or " only when I could get the tool
rest
close enough".


oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside
of
my
bowls