George,

We are violently agreeing on this topic. My whole point is that in a forum
like this, we can't control the audience. In other words, a novice turner
may read a discussion of tool use between to experienced turners who are
doing rather unconventional things. As an experienced turner, I feel that I
am obligated to provide appropriate caveats so that the novice lurker, etc.
understands my frame of reference. I know that in an open forum like this,
the reader is on his or her own to try to measure the validity of others'
statements. I just prefer to be very clear so as not to confuse someone who
doesn't yet have enough knowledge to evaluate what I am saying.

And, for the record, I use spindle gouges on bowls and hollow forms; bowl
gouges on spindles; scrapers everywhere; parting tools, beading tools,
skews, X-Acto knives, dental picks and allen wrenches as scrapers; I hollow
some vessels with spindle gouges; and, for between center work, I use my
chuck as a driver instead of a drive spur most of the time. For anyone out
there that doesn't know how to do these things safely: DON'T, until you
have someone explain the risk and rewards. In all these cases, FOR ME, they
provide speed, expediency, or an unusual cut. I just don't openly discuss
these techniques unless I know the audience.

See further comments below:

Again - great discussion!

"George" wrote in message
...
No, I don't think so. If you're not chewing beech or chasing chunks
across
the floor, you've got a proper sense of caution. I'd only recommend it on
the outside, though

I think the insight that: "A turning tool is designed to present a
cutting
edge or a scraping edge to the wood in a limited range of orientations,
such
that the cut/scrape can be accomplished easily, efficiently and safely.
Taken at its core, what does this mean? It means that every tool has a
"sweet spot" of operation."

Was overwhelmed by a few bitter experiences or comfortable conventional
wisdom.

I don't believe there is _a_ sweet spot on _a_ type of tool for all
operations and configurations, because there are right and left hand cuts,
concave and convex, face and long grain ... well, you get the picture.
Not
to mention that the number of tools available to do the same job, and
turners still trying for more, is the best indication there isn't even a
perfect tool for a particular job, much less technique.

jf While I believe that every tool has a range of capabilities, there are
things you can't do with those same tools. You refer to this as operator
error and I agree. My point is that to describe the use of a non-typical
tool for a particular cut is risky because a novice turner probably doesn't
have the tool or turning knowledge to determine what is safe and what is
not. Rather than telling them that tool X can do a job without explaining
the pitfalls, I would error on the side of caution. On the other side,
there are cuts that no tool does easily. In these cases, a fundamental
knowledge of woodturning dynamics and tools will help a turner select the
best tool to do the job.

The observations, before they wander away, are observations that bad tool
practice can be dangerous with _any_ tool. Tool rest too far is not a
comment on the suitability of the tool, but the carelessness of the
operator. Tool presented at the wrong angle (out of the "sweet spot") is
also not the fault of the tool, though, I'll bet a lot of folks have found
a
heck of a lot more sweet spots on a gouge - or not, which is why they
grind
'em funny - than I have, and it wasn't by presenting "the" proper tool for
"the" conventional reason. After seeming to object, Joe does return to
experience, both individual and vicarious, as the best teacher.

jf Again, we are agreeing here. My point is that a novice turner, for
example, may read someone in this forum talking about using a rouging gouge
for bowls. In this whole thread, however, the people that have stated this
use have never provide caveats like: "only on the outside of the bowl", or
"only with the wings ground back", or " only when I could get the tool rest
close enough".

It's sort of like when I went to pour my first concrete. I read, pestered
and questioned, and discovered the consensus that sometimes concrete
cracks,
sometimes it doesn't. While there are bad practices which will guarantee
failure, there are no practices which will guarantee success.

"Reyd Dorakeen" wrote in message
...
oops, guess I better top using that rougingin gouge to open the inside
of
my
bowls