I personally want to attach myself to my turning tools - with just my
hands.
The idea of attaching the tool TO ME seems "undesirable" (see, I toned
it
down from "totally insane!!!!!!"). If something goes wrong - I'd prefer
to have
myself and the tool part ways - by MY choice/natural reaction to leg go
and
run away, perhaps even screaming "like a girl" - rather than me being
CONNECTED
TO IT - knowing "it" doesn't care one way or the other what the
consequences
are to "it" or ME!

And I know someone will say "an arm braced tool is perfectly safe" - and
may
or may not add the caveat "IF you use it close to perfectly and maintain
total
focus and concentration on using it - properly." But any set up that
transfers
uncontrolled forces from just my hands, to the bones, muscles, tendons
and
ligaments in my upper arm - and shoulder - is - to my mind - "not good".

What say you?

charlieb wrote:
I personally want to attach myself to my turning tools - with just my
hands.
The idea of attaching the tool TO ME seems "undesirable" (see, I toned
it
down from "totally insane!!!!!!"). If something goes wrong - I'd prefer
to have
myself and the tool part ways - by MY choice/natural reaction to leg go
and
run away, perhaps even screaming "like a girl" - rather than me being
CONNECTED
TO IT - knowing "it" doesn't care one way or the other what the
consequences
are to "it" or ME!

And I know someone will say "an arm braced tool is perfectly safe" - and
may
or may not add the caveat "IF you use it close to perfectly and maintain
total
focus and concentration on using it - properly." But any set up that
transfers
uncontrolled forces from just my hands, to the bones, muscles, tendons
and
ligaments in my upper arm - and shoulder - is - to my mind - "not good".

What say you?
I felt the same way about parting off a spindle at several hundred
rpm. After the first one just dropped down on the ways it seemed less
scary.

I use a side handle on my hollowing tool and it feels perfectly
natural and have never had any scary episodes. A lot of catches, but
none scary. I feel that an arm brace would be fine, but too expensive
for me.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Tis better to light a flame thrower
than to curse the darkness.

In article ,
charlieb wrote:

What say you?

How much horsepower drives your lathe? Is the drive geared? The reality
of arm-brace tools is that even with fairly long overhang, you have
enough leverage to stop the spindle dead, and smoke whatever smokes
(belt, motor, etc) on any reasonable wood lathe most normal humans run.

If you have a 5-10 hp geared-drive lathe, that might be different. If
you have that lathe, there's not much excuse for using any sort of hand
tool on it, actually. Chuck the tools in a toolholder and spin dials or
tell the CNC where to put the tool.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
charlieb wrote:

What say you?

How much horsepower drives your lathe? Is the drive geared? The reality
of arm-brace tools is that even with fairly long overhang, you have
enough leverage to stop the spindle dead, and smoke whatever smokes
(belt, motor, etc) on any reasonable wood lathe most normal humans run.

If you have a 5-10 hp geared-drive lathe, that might be different. If
you have that lathe, there's not much excuse for using any sort of hand
tool on it, actually. Chuck the tools in a toolholder and spin dials or
tell the CNC where to put the tool.

--

please, let me respectfully disagree - I have only 2 hp, and I have used
(note past tense) an arm brace type tool for hollowing - things have gone
wrong (you can blame the user if you like) and when things bind up the
resultant torque is turned into a nice solid twist to your arm, or a lifting
moment. If the piece is heavy, say 100 pounds, it can easily lift you off
the floor - with a slightly larger piece, I could see it breaking an arm -
in either case the result is not up to my standards for comfort and luxury.
Some folks use the arm brace for years with no problem, then break their arm
with a nasty catch, some never have issues.

I'd be happy to sell my now not-used arm brace tool to someone who would
make use of it because I'm not going to.... or I can just let it hang on
the wall to impress people

bill
www.wbnoble.com

I can't say that I have ever heard of some one breaking their arm with
one of the arm brace type of hollowing tools (there's one for
Mythbusters). I have used the regular handled type, and it is just too
much labor. Hard work never hurt any one, but why work harder than you
have to? For smaller hollowforms, one of the articulated types like
the Monster. For larger ones, a capured one like the Jaimeson type.
Much less effort expended.
robo hippy

On Mar 17, 9:00*pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:
"Ecnerwal" wrote in message

...





In article ,
charlieb wrote:

What say you?

How much horsepower drives your lathe? Is the drive geared? The reality
of arm-brace tools is that even with fairly long overhang, you have
enough leverage to stop the spindle dead, and smoke whatever smokes
(belt, motor, etc) on any reasonable wood lathe most normal humans run.

If you have a 5-10 hp geared-drive lathe, that might be different. If
you have that lathe, there's not much excuse for using any sort of hand
tool on it, actually. Chuck the tools in a toolholder and spin dials or
tell the CNC where to put the tool.

--

please, let me respectfully disagree - I have only 2 hp, and I have used
(note past tense) an arm brace type tool for hollowing - things have gone
wrong (you can blame the user if you like) and when things bind up the
resultant torque is turned into a nice solid twist to your arm, or a lifting
moment. If the piece is heavy, say 100 pounds, it can easily lift you off
the floor - with a slightly larger piece, I could see it breaking an arm -
in either case the result is not up to my standards for comfort and luxury.
Some folks use the arm brace for years with no problem, then break their arm
with a nasty catch, some never have issues.

I'd be happy to sell my now not-used arm brace tool to someone who would
make use of it because I'm not going to.... *or I can just let it hang on
the wall to impress people

billwww.wbnoble.com

robo hippy wrote:

I can't say that I have ever heard of some one breaking their arm with
one of the arm brace type of hollowing tools (there's one for
Mythbusters).

I know of one torn up shoulder as a result of a catch - on a Stubby.
And the individual is a very experienced turner, with 20+ years of
turning - and has turned just about everything that can be turned
on a lathe. The ONE incident required surgery to correct MOST of
the damage (shoulders are kind of a complicated joint, with lots of
tendons, ligaments and muscles holding the joint together in a somewhat
precarious combination of bones - and not easy to repair fully).

He readily admits that he had a momentary lapse in attention - and
that's all it took. Personally I prefer tools that, if something goes
really wrong, I merely have to change pants and drawers - and not
make a trip to the emergency room and subsequent trips to an
orthopedic surgeon (they are really EXPENSIVE).

It's good to keep in mind that the energy involved with a moving
mass, traveling at velocity V is not mxV but mxV^2. If you double
the rpms, you impart FOUR times more energy to the turning mass.

Here's the energy for a 12" diameter piece, weight 5 pounds,
spinning at 1500 rpms - 30,843 LBs-(ft^2/sec^2). For
comparison, a 2000 pound little sports car, traveling at a bit
over 2 1/2 MPH's energy is 29,645 LBs-(ft^2/sec^2). Can
you stop that little moving car - almost instantaneously - with just
your arm?

I'm going with the physics - and err on the side of caution - and
therefore avoid attaching a tool to ME.

BTW - the energy of the spinning mass is what you have to stop/
overcome, not the horsepower of the motor that's spinning it at the
speed it's traveling when the catch occurs. The belt(s) might slip
AFTER you've stopped the piece from spinning - but by then, the
damage is already done.

I've bought (and made) an arm brace because several turners whom I
respect use one. John Jordan who used to check in here used one, sells
one and I presume teaches its use. I don't use mine, mostly because I
don't need it for what I turn, but I've wondered about its safety.


What does an arm brace do for me? I assume it helps prevent lateral
motion of the tool's longer lever by "locking" to my right forearm and
therefore to my arm and shoulder girdle. If the brace's walls are
shallow so that my arm safely slips out when a strong lateral force
suddenly occurs then what's the use of the brace?
Do I need it for weak forces?


I don't know if vertical downward motion is impeded by an armbrace, but
upward impedance seems unlikely. Seems that the more efficient the
armbrace, the greater the risk of injury. Maybe it's just another of
dozens of trade offs between usefulness and injury. The risks we incur
and accept every time we turn wood.


This is all armchair thinking by a non-user and I may have it wrong.
Lets hear from some users since the armbrace has been used without
injury by many competent turners for a long time. The old rational vs
empirical reasoning thing we learned about in school and promptly
forgot.


Charlie notes the only accidental injury by a good turner that I know of
and he (not Charlie) admitted to inattention. If I don't pay attention
while turning with or without bracing my arm, I'm likely to get hurt.
What are the risks of an armbrace used properly? I sure don't know.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

This is a frightening recounting of anecdotes:


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...p/t-76155.html

Arch wrote:

snip

Charlie notes the only accidental injury by a good turner that I know of
and he (not Charlie) admitted to inattention. If I don't pay attention
while turning with or without bracing my arm, I'm likely to get hurt.
What are the risks of an armbrace used properly? I sure don't know.


Accidents, by definition, are not intentional. And the phrase
"Nobody's perfect" is true. And yes, like so many other things
in life, mounting a chunk of wood to a motor, spinning it at 500
to two or three thousand rpms and applying a steel cutting tool
to it involves some risk of injury. And yes, many accidental
injuries could have been prevented by better prior choices, one
of which is being risk assessment BEFORE acting in a potentially
risky manner.

I drive a little Miata - convertible - often atfreeway speeds -
on freeways of course. It has an airbag and I added a real
(as opposed to cosmetic cause it looks cool) roll bar, I ALWAYS
wear my seat belt, my rear and side mirrors are adjusted so
I can readily and often see what's around and behind me, I
don't play with the radio or use a cell phone while driving and
whenever possible, leave myself space to maneuver should
that become necessary. I also don't drink and I never drive
when I'm stressed out or angry. I've had two fender benders
that were my fault - in 40+ years, neither involving injuries
and only one other accident - caused by another driver,
going in the opposite direction hitting another car also
driving in the opposite direction - and spinning that car into
my stopped vehicle.

Given the math and physics vs the anecdotal evidence -
I choose to err on the side of caution - and the math and
physics - be it when driving - or turning. Captured Systems
readily available, and at least for me, affordable make the
potential
risks of a hand held, arm braced hollowing tool unnecessary.

For those getting into hollowing who haven't seen this before
here's a compendium of captured hollowing systems available
- and I bet more are out there now.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...gSystems1.html

Consider alternatives to arm brace hollowing tools and then
make a risk assessment.

In message , charlieb
writes

Given the math and physics vs the anecdotal evidence -
I choose to err on the side of caution - and the math and
physics - be it when driving - or turning. Captured Systems
readily available, and at least for me, affordable make the
potential
risks of a hand held, arm braced hollowing tool unnecessary.

Never trust statistics, Never trust fact
Statistically speaking the odds can be 100 Million to 1
Facts may show no evidence

But unless it can be guaranteed something can never happen, then it can,
so does anyone want to be the first ?

Their are many areas of life where their are risks, we try to control /
limit them as best we can, but their are no guarantees, and the risk may
be catastrophic.

I had a mitre saw that failed in use, and it was a design fault. The
only reason I know was I had a second identical machine, and it also
failed, but safely, and leaving the evidence. When the first machine
failed, not only the blade guard was destroyed, several Tungsten Carbide
teeth also and a large chunk of aluminium casting. What was the cause,
quite simple no screw lock, or spring washer, on a plate attached to the
guard. Vibration caused the screw to come loose fall into the guard as
it had just reached maximum speed..... and the rest was history. When
the second one failed I had the blade tilted and the screw fell on the
floor, the design has since been modified

For me I prefer the idea of not being attached

For those getting into hollowing who haven't seen this before
here's a compendium of captured hollowing systems available
- and I bet more are out there now.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...s/HollowingSys
tems1.html

I remember when I saw them before... I now wonder if anyone has tried 2
cutters, in parallel (like callipers) in such a way as to set a
thickness and do both inside and outside at the same time.

I do hope later this year to start building my own design hollowing
system, though I suspect it will include a combination of feature from
many of the designs seen already
--
John

There are 3 kind of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics. Mark
Twain

If some one invents some thing that is idiot proof, then some one else
will invent a better idiot. unknown

robo hippy

On Mar 18, 2:41*pm, John wrote:
In message , charlieb
writes



* *Given the math and physics vs the anecdotal evidence -
* *I choose to err on the side of caution - and the math and
* *physics - be it when driving - or turning. *Captured Systems
* *readily available, and at least for me, affordable make the
potential
* *risks of a hand held, arm braced hollowing tool unnecessary.

Never trust statistics, Never trust fact
Statistically speaking the odds can be 100 Million to 1
Facts may show no evidence

But unless it can be guaranteed something can never happen, then it can,
so does anyone want to be the first ?

Their are many areas of life where their are risks, we try to control /
limit them as best we can, but their are no guarantees, and the risk may
be catastrophic.

I had a mitre saw that failed in use, and it was a design fault. The
only reason I know was I had a second identical machine, and it also
failed, but safely, and leaving the evidence. When the first machine
failed, not only the blade guard was destroyed, several Tungsten Carbide
teeth also and a large chunk of aluminium casting. What was the cause,
quite simple no screw lock, or spring washer, on a plate attached to the
guard. Vibration caused the screw to come loose fall into the guard as
it had just reached maximum speed..... and the rest was history. When
the second one failed I had the blade tilted and the screw fell on the
floor, the design has since been modified

For me I prefer the idea of not being attached

* *For those getting into hollowing who haven't seen this before
* *here's a compendium of captured hollowing systems available
* *- and I bet more are out there now.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...s/HollowingSys
tems1.html

I remember when I saw them before... I now wonder if anyone has tried 2
cutters, in parallel (like callipers) in such a way as to set a
thickness and do both inside and outside at the same time.

I do hope later this year to start building my own design hollowing
system, though I suspect it will include a combination of feature from
many of the designs seen already
--
John

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:32:43 -0800, charlieb wrote:

I agree, Charlie... "hands down"

I looked at those things and my first thought was something like "those things
are for folks a lot younger than me"...


I personally want to attach myself to my turning tools - with just my
hands.
The idea of attaching the tool TO ME seems "undesirable" (see, I toned
it
down from "totally insane!!!!!!"). If something goes wrong - I'd prefer
to have
myself and the tool part ways - by MY choice/natural reaction to leg go
and
run away, perhaps even screaming "like a girl" - rather than me being
CONNECTED
TO IT - knowing "it" doesn't care one way or the other what the
consequences
are to "it" or ME!

And I know someone will say "an arm braced tool is perfectly safe" - and
may
or may not add the caveat "IF you use it close to perfectly and maintain
total
focus and concentration on using it - properly." But any set up that
transfers
uncontrolled forces from just my hands, to the bones, muscles, tendons
and
ligaments in my upper arm - and shoulder - is - to my mind - "not good".

What say you?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 00:43:22 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , charlieb
wrote:

What say you?

When I make a mistake, and I KNOW I will, I don't want the tool
attached to me.

I wnat my grip of the tool JUST precarious enough that I am going to
DAMNED WELL PAY ATTENTION in "iffy" situations when I'm pretending I'm
that little Engine saying "I think I can..."

I couldn't agree more...
Most of my gouges are ground "swept", so the tool handle is much lower than the
tip..
If I get a catch, (not that any of US ever do), I want the tool to be pushed
down and on MY side of the tool rest..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I like my arm braces for hollowing. By the way, an arm brace is only
attached by holding it with your hand. The extra control comes from
"resting" the arm in a holder, not strapping it in. The chances of the
force of a catch breaking your grip are a lot better than the forces
breaking your arm.

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:Rv1Cl.21530$PH1.14917@edtnps82...
I like my arm braces for hollowing. By the way, an arm brace is only
attached by holding it with your hand. The extra control comes from
"resting" the arm in a holder, not strapping it in. The chances of the
force of a catch breaking your grip are a lot better than the forces
breaking your arm.

true enough, but after some rough work with such a tool, I had a very very
sore shoulder and forearm