We have worn out 'Art versus Craft', at least for the time being. To
further waste your time how about reviving another old and useless
debate? I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? It's not as simple as it looks, is it? The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

In my dictionary there are several definitions of a professional that
seem to overlap both hobbyist and professional woodturners. Do terms
like 'learned endeavor', 'expert', 'code of ethics', 'for financial
gain', 'livelihood', 'long, intensive preparation' 'full time' apply
only to the professional and rule out the accomplished hobbyist? Nope.

I thought I had found a definition or a reasonable understanding that
works for me, namely that a hobby is a pursuit outside of one's regular
occupation engaged in for relaxation. But suppose that a 'hobbist who
sells is retired or has no other occupation? This would apply to an
amateur turner as well, although there is a sense of lack of experienced
competence in the term 'amateur turner'.

For those who sell and call themselves hobbists, I ask why? For you who
consider yourselves to be professionals, how do you separate yourself
from accomplished hobbists who are retired or have no other occupation,
and sell a few birdhouses at the local flea market?

Of course the separation may not be distinct and only relates to the
degree of time spent turning and money made, but at what degree is the
difference apparent? Forty hours a week? Five hundred dollars a bowl?
What's your take? Please respond, even if you don't care. Orphan posts
even silly ones, are not much fun.

I've about decided that having a printed business card makes one a
professional. But suppose the work is amateurish? Here we go again.
Maybe he's an artist. Oh no, he's a craftsman, although his work is
amateurish art. In the end I reckon you are a professional or a hobbyist
(or a redneck) if you say you are. Who cares.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

In message , Arch
writes

We have worn out 'Art versus Craft', at least for the time being. To
further waste your time how about reviving another old and useless
debate? I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? It's not as simple as it looks, is it? The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

In my dictionary there are several definitions of a professional that
seem to overlap both hobbyist and professional woodturners. Do terms
like 'learned endeavor', 'expert', 'code of ethics', 'for financial
gain', 'livelihood', 'long, intensive preparation' 'full time' apply
only to the professional and rule out the accomplished hobbyist? Nope.

I thought I had found a definition or a reasonable understanding that
works for me, namely that a hobby is a pursuit outside of one's regular
occupation engaged in for relaxation. But suppose that a 'hobbist who
sells is retired or has no other occupation? This would apply to an
amateur turner as well, although there is a sense of lack of experienced
competence in the term 'amateur turner'.

For those who sell and call themselves hobbists, I ask why? For you who
consider yourselves to be professionals, how do you separate yourself
from accomplished hobbists who are retired or have no other occupation,
and sell a few birdhouses at the local flea market?

Of course the separation may not be distinct and only relates to the
degree of time spent turning and money made, but at what degree is the
difference apparent? Forty hours a week? Five hundred dollars a bowl?
What's your take? Please respond, even if you don't care. Orphan posts
even silly ones, are not much fun.

I've about decided that having a printed business card makes one a
professional. But suppose the work is amateurish? Here we go again.
Maybe he's an artist. Oh no, he's a craftsman, although his work is
amateurish art. In the end I reckon you are a professional or a hobbyist
(or a redneck) if you say you are. Who cares.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


I come from a background of Quality Assurance, and an important factor
is "Fit for Purpose" If the object that is made meets the needs of the
client then it can be either be by A N Other or Picasso, it matters not.

As has been mentioned by Mac and others each turning has an owner, you
just need to find them.

You could turn the most awful pen, none of the joints meeting smoothly,
horrid style. But what's to say it has no value, someone may purchase it
just to use as an example of how not to do it. (Have you ever tried to
do something your good at, badly ?)

My definition of a Professional has always been the simple one of if you
are paid for a service or produce a product you are paid for then you
are a professional. But you could extrapolate from this, a turner
producing bowls, but never sells one may not be a Professional Bowl
Turner' , though the same person could be producing hundreds of pens a
day, everyone selling, so you could call them a "Professional Pen
Turner".

So is it better to define a Professional Turner for individual
Disciplines Bowls, Pens, Spindles etc. as above. Or should the term
Professional Turner be applied, when the turner acquires Professional
status (as I have defined above) in 2,3,4, 5 different fields of
turning.

Is repeatability an important factor too, I would say no, as artists
like free expression, so probably prefer to make different objects every
time, always looking for that something better.

One thing over the years I have noticed is that "Professional Bodies"
have grown up to represent the interests of those in a specific trade,
they then define and tailor the standards for that Trade, and everyone
assumes they are correct, often to the exclusion of those who are not
members of their "Body" In some cases you can find such bodies where
when they started the requirements were A, B, C but now new members must
have X,Y,Z too, even though many existing members still have only A,B,C

We have all seen website that look amateurish, but they are often
created by Professionals, but to the clients requirements. So does a
professional needs to have the skill to look like an amateur? Conversely
does an Amateur have the skill to look like a Professional ?

Arch, you raise an interesting point, one which I think will be
discussed for hundreds of years, or until money is obsolete and the
definition of Professional needs revising
--
John

Many thanks John, for your thoughtful and thought provoking response.
Here's some questionable thoughts that you provoked.

In my corner of the USA money may not be becoming obsolete, but it sure
is an endangered species and it's rapidly becoming extinct; disappearing
into our hungry gas tanks and greedy mortgagees.

In many trade or professional (whatever's the difference) associations,
the original rigid ABC requirements for membership have often been
reduced to AB or even A, instead of being strengthened to XYZ. I suspect
that's owing to the increasing recognition of the value of belonging and
the inability of the organizations to keep up with testing and
certifying an ever increasing number of applicants. Ex.: Medical
speciality certification boards have mostly discontinued hands on
practicals and narrative answers in favor of checking the right multiple
choice box.

Also I think, that as these "august bodies" age and grow in size there
is an inexorable need to spend more money for administration and
therefore they have to resort to raising it not only by dues, but also
by activities that don't enhance prestige, such as selling advertising,
or becoming a publishing house. The American Medical Associaton and the
American Radio Relay League might be examples, but to stay on topic,
maybe the AAW and the GMC isn't there yet, but their list of
publications and videos is getting longer while the content gets more
expensive and less original.

As to rcw's fine woodturning professionals and their equally fine
hobbyist brethren, not to mention we amateurs, I don't know what to
think, but that doesn't stop me from posting too long and too often.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

In message , Arch
writes
Many thanks John, for your thoughtful and thought provoking response.
Here's some questionable thoughts that you provoked.

In my corner of the USA money may not be becoming obsolete, but it sure
is an endangered species and it's rapidly becoming extinct; disappearing
into our hungry gas tanks and greedy mortgagees.


If you think its an endangered species there, take a trip to the UK for
a week and you will need a second mortgage, Our fuel prices are
currently hovering at about 11 US Dollars a Gallon


In many trade or professional (whatever's the difference) associations,
the original rigid ABC requirements for membership have often been
reduced to AB or even A, instead of being strengthened to XYZ. I suspect
that's owing to the increasing recognition of the value of belonging and
the inability of the organizations to keep up with testing and
certifying an ever increasing number of applicants. Ex.: Medical
speciality certification boards have mostly discontinued hands on
practicals and narrative answers in favor of checking the right multiple
choice box.

That is interesting, as I see here many bodies increasing the
requirements. An example was in the recent past that for 'Gas' ( Not
sure what you call it in the US seeing you call fuel for cars Gas)
installations in the UK the requirement was to be Competent, but now the
main Registration body has convinced the Government that only their
members are suitable, and if the installation is not performed by one of
their people you will have trouble getting insurance on your building.
Maybe this is the outcome of numerous bodies in the EU clambering for.

Also I think, that as these "august bodies" age and grow in size there
is an inexorable need to spend more money for administration and
therefore they have to resort to raising it not only by dues, but also
by activities that don't enhance prestige, such as selling advertising,
or becoming a publishing house. The American Medical Associaton and the
American Radio Relay League might be examples, but to stay on topic,
maybe the AAW and the GMC isn't there yet, but their list of
publications and videos is getting longer while the content gets more
expensive and less original.
You may have a point there, I have seen the self importance of the ARRL,
and for us in the UK RSGB grow. Admittedly they represent the members
but, the hobby is slowly being replaced for many by the Internet. Partly
due to it appearing unsociable to have a mast on ones land. Now maybe I
should take up operations and watch all these remote devices, WiFi
systems come to a grinding halt

Many bodies are struggling to find good contributions, maybe as you say
less original. How many times can we turn that pen, bowl, etc.?. There
are only a limited number of ways. But to new and old alike its
sometimes understanding the difference in mechanics that matters. And as
areas of interest expand, it becomes harder to provide articles of
interest for all to read. I am still new at the game, still hoping to
complete the workshop in a few weeks. But I believe I have learnt more
on this newsgroup than I could from any book. Why ? Because it is
interactive, and that's something no video or book can provide, so we
don't get a chance to ask a question.


I will add one further thought for the wood turners here. Are Artists -
Professionals ? or Professionals - Artists ? or does each have their own
preference ?


As to rcw's fine woodturning professionals and their equally fine
hobbyist brethren, not to mention we amateurs, I don't know what to
think, but that doesn't stop me from posting too long and too often.


While turners keep thinking and keep provoking thought, conversation
debate, or even argument, the hobby or profession for some, will always
have a chance to grow, and not stagnate into total indifference.

For me Turning is just a bit of fun before lunch
--
John

In article ,
John wrote:

In message , Arch
writes

Also I think, that as these "august bodies" age and grow in size there
is an inexorable need to spend more money for administration and
therefore they have to resort to raising it not only by dues, but also
by activities that don't enhance prestige, such as selling advertising,
or becoming a publishing house. The American Medical Associaton and the
American Radio Relay League might be examples, but to stay on topic,
maybe the AAW and the GMC isn't there yet, but their list of
publications and videos is getting longer while the content gets more
expensive and less original.
You may have a point there, I have seen the self importance of the ARRL,
and for us in the UK RSGB grow. Admittedly they represent the members
but, the hobby is slowly being replaced for many by the Internet. Partly
due to it appearing unsociable to have a mast on ones land. Now maybe I
should take up operations and watch all these remote devices, WiFi
systems come to a grinding halt

I have no experience with the RSGB, but I certainly agree about the
ARRL.

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

John wrote:

As has been mentioned by Mac and others each turning has an owner, you
just need to find them.

Somebody buys the Elvis on Velvet, else they would disappear.

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

I have no experience with the RSGB, but I certainly agree about the
ARRL.

The ARRL seems to fill a necessary public function: communications in a
'disaster'.

On May 30, 10:50 am, (Arch) wrote:

I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? It's not as simple as it looks, is it? The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

Well, a comment from the black and white world of Robert. My
definition of a professional is much more pedantic, and certainly much
more pragmatic.

If you can support yourself (and maybe your family) in the style you
want in the profession you want for two years or more, then you are a
professional.

The rest is just playing.

Extra money on the weekends is just a paying hobby or moonlight job.

Turning out an exceptional piece of work and getting paid for it once
every six months or so...still playing.

Because someone pays you to paint their doghouse, you aren't a
professional painter, I don't care how nice your work is. You are
simply a talented painter.

If someone pays you to cut a tree down, you are not a professional
arborist, you are a guy with a chainsaw. (But if you do it for free,
you probably ARE a woodturner!)

I think a professional is someone that grinds out his living with
regular hours, self employed or not, and makes a living at his/her
chosen profession. A pro is someone that pays taxes on his income
from his chosen profession, and probably has some write offs that are
available because the business has met the IRS litmus test.

I am not saying that a hobby guy cannot turn out work better than some
professionals; and I am not saying that there is a lot of difference
in the quality of work between hobby guys and professionals.

But when you do things for a living, especially as a self employed
guy, there are times the lunch whistle means nothing, the dinner bell
means nothing, and all you see is finishing the task at hand to
fulfill obligations.

When you are a hobby guy, you stop for lunch, come in when your wife
calls for dinner, watch playoff games, etc. during your time at the
tools. Just because you find someone to buy your efforts doesn't make
you some kind of pro.

I guess I have been self employed too long. In reading my typing, I
almost hit the IRS definition on the head.

Robert

'Professional' is one of the words I'd like to see made into a word
people don't use in polite company. The word 'professional' probably
means whatever someone wants it to mean. All I know is it seems to add
to the cost of a new tool when they put 'professional' on it.

On the other hand a profession goes through a series of steps as the
people in it try to control the market for their services (my
opinion). According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession

"Classically, there were only three professions: Divinity, Medicine,
and Law[16]. The main milestones which mark an occupation being
identified as a profession a

1. It became a full-time occupation;
2. The first training school was established;
3. The first university school was established;
4. The first local association was established;
5. The first national association was established;
6. The codes of professional ethics were introduced;
7. State licencing laws were established"

I guess we have a ways to go before we will need to buy licenses to
turn wood and can be members of a profession.

That link above has a long list of what describes a profession in case
you have any interest.

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:50:11 -0400, (Arch) wrote:

Arch... Might be over simplified, but to me, a professional is someone who sells
their turnings..
Good, bad, ugly, artsy, whatever..
I know turners that are much more skilled than I am that try to sell their stuff
but aren't successful..
OTOH, I look at some of the crap that I did 5 or 6 years ago, that people
actually bought, and I'm both amazed and embarrassed..

I think Micro$oft is a good example.. they turn out some good stuff and some
real crap.. but it all sells, so I consider them professional.. YMWV

We have worn out 'Art versus Craft', at least for the time being. To
further waste your time how about reviving another old and useless
debate? I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? It's not as simple as it looks, is it? The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

In my dictionary there are several definitions of a professional that
seem to overlap both hobbyist and professional woodturners. Do terms
like 'learned endeavor', 'expert', 'code of ethics', 'for financial
gain', 'livelihood', 'long, intensive preparation' 'full time' apply
only to the professional and rule out the accomplished hobbyist? Nope.

I thought I had found a definition or a reasonable understanding that
works for me, namely that a hobby is a pursuit outside of one's regular
occupation engaged in for relaxation. But suppose that a 'hobbist who
sells is retired or has no other occupation? This would apply to an
amateur turner as well, although there is a sense of lack of experienced
competence in the term 'amateur turner'.

For those who sell and call themselves hobbists, I ask why? For you who
consider yourselves to be professionals, how do you separate yourself
from accomplished hobbists who are retired or have no other occupation,
and sell a few birdhouses at the local flea market?

Of course the separation may not be distinct and only relates to the
degree of time spent turning and money made, but at what degree is the
difference apparent? Forty hours a week? Five hundred dollars a bowl?
What's your take? Please respond, even if you don't care. Orphan posts
even silly ones, are not much fun.

I've about decided that having a printed business card makes one a
professional. But suppose the work is amateurish? Here we go again.
Maybe he's an artist. Oh no, he's a craftsman, although his work is
amateurish art. In the end I reckon you are a professional or a hobbyist
(or a redneck) if you say you are. Who cares.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings




mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:25:49 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

John wrote:

As has been mentioned by Mac and others each turning has an owner, you
just need to find them.

Somebody buys the Elvis on Velvet, else they would disappear.

Yep.. my dad used to say that there was "an ass for every seat"..lol


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

tww wrote:


'Professional' is one of the words I'd like to see made into a word
people don't use in polite company. The word 'professional' probably
means whatever someone wants it to mean. All I know is it seems to add
to the cost of a new tool when they put 'professional' on it.

Company I worked for in DC advertised itself as a "Professional Services
Company". Translated, that meant "Beltway Bandit" - in the most pejorative
sense of the term. Some BBs substituted "Firm" for "Company", believing
that gave them an international cachet.

After reading the post, what springs to my mind is who the hell cares? If
you need a definition, surely an amateur in it's proper sense means one who
does it for the sake of , a professional does it for profit i.e.to earn a
living.
I seriously doubt many turners actually making enough to live on from
turning these days, unless they are extremely famous, and even then they
probably make more from teaching or writing than production.

"Arch" wrote in message
...

We have worn out 'Art versus Craft', at least for the time being. To
further waste your time how about reviving another old and useless
debate? I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? It's not as simple as it looks, is it? The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

In my dictionary there are several definitions of a professional that
seem to overlap both hobbyist and professional woodturners. Do terms
like 'learned endeavor', 'expert', 'code of ethics', 'for financial
gain', 'livelihood', 'long, intensive preparation' 'full time' apply
only to the professional and rule out the accomplished hobbyist? Nope.

I thought I had found a definition or a reasonable understanding that
works for me, namely that a hobby is a pursuit outside of one's regular
occupation engaged in for relaxation. But suppose that a 'hobbist who
sells is retired or has no other occupation? This would apply to an
amateur turner as well, although there is a sense of lack of experienced
competence in the term 'amateur turner'.

For those who sell and call themselves hobbists, I ask why? For you who
consider yourselves to be professionals, how do you separate yourself
from accomplished hobbists who are retired or have no other occupation,
and sell a few birdhouses at the local flea market?

Of course the separation may not be distinct and only relates to the
degree of time spent turning and money made, but at what degree is the
difference apparent? Forty hours a week? Five hundred dollars a bowl?
What's your take? Please respond, even if you don't care. Orphan posts
even silly ones, are not much fun.

I've about decided that having a printed business card makes one a
professional. But suppose the work is amateurish? Here we go again.
Maybe he's an artist. Oh no, he's a craftsman, although his work is
amateurish art. In the end I reckon you are a professional or a hobbyist
(or a redneck) if you say you are. Who cares.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I can remember when I first started in on my woodworking career that
the magazine questionaires would ask are you professional, or
hobbyist. I felt that I was, and still am a semi-pro. I work at it
pretty much full time, I pay taxes, I make enough money at it to
support my habbit in good style, and to pay all the associated bills
(business inusrance included). I don't make a living at it. I can see
how I could make a living at it, but that would require working too
hard at it, and would probably suck most of the joy out of it.
Amateur, from the root word amator (lover) One who engages in a
pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a
profession. A little of both for me, I do love what I do.

One other definition, I was attending some talk about being an artist,
and the speaker said some thing about an artist has a 'studio, not a
work shop.' A studio implys too much order for me, my chaos is a work
shop, no one who sees it would argue that point, yet some of my work
is definatly art. Quoting Anthony Yak on another forum (Wood Net), "if
it don't hold soup, then it's art".
robo hippy

On Jun 1, 2:34*am, "c.les hewitt" wrote:
After reading the post, what springs to my mind *is who the hell cares? If
you need a definition, surely an amateur in it's proper sense means one who
does it for the sake of , a professional does it for profit i.e.to earn a
living.
* *I seriously doubt many turners actually making enough to live on from
turning these days, unless they are *extremely famous, and even then they
probably make more from teaching or writing than production.

"Arch" wrote in message

...



We have worn out 'Art versus Craft', at least for the time being. To
further waste your time how about reviving another old and useless
debate? *I mean "What defines a Professional Woodturner or separates him
from a Hobbyist"? * It's not as simple as it looks, is it? *The work of
some professionals can be amateurish. A hobbyist's work can be very
professional. etc. etc.

In my dictionary there are several definitions of a professional that
seem to overlap both hobbyist and professional woodturners. Do terms
like 'learned endeavor', 'expert', 'code of ethics', 'for financial
gain', 'livelihood', *'long, intensive preparation' 'full time' apply
only to the professional and rule out the accomplished hobbyist? Nope.

I thought I had found a definition or a reasonable understanding that
works for me, namely that a hobby is a pursuit outside of one's regular
occupation engaged in for relaxation. But suppose that a 'hobbist who
sells is retired or has no other occupation? This would apply to an
amateur turner as well, although there is a sense of lack of experienced
competence in the term 'amateur turner'.

For those who sell and call themselves hobbists, I ask why? *For you who
consider yourselves to be professionals, how do you separate yourself
from accomplished hobbists who are retired or have no other occupation,
and sell a few birdhouses at the local flea market?

Of course the separation may not be distinct and only relates to the
degree of time spent turning and money made, but at what degree is the
difference apparent? Forty hours a week? Five hundred dollars a bowl?
What's your take? *Please respond, even if you don't care. *Orphan posts
even silly ones, are not much fun.

I've about decided that having a printed business card makes one a
professional. But suppose the work is amateurish? Here we go again.
Maybe he's an artist. Oh no, he's a craftsman, although his work is
amateurish art. In the end I reckon you are a professional or a hobbyist
(or a redneck) if you say you are. *Who cares. *

Turn to Safety, *Arch
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT), robo hippy
wrote:

One other definition, I was attending some talk about being an artist,
and the speaker said some thing about an artist has a 'studio, not a
work shop.' A studio implys too much order for me, my chaos is a work
shop, no one who sees it would argue that point, yet some of my work
is definatly art. Quoting Anthony Yak on another forum (Wood Net), "if
it don't hold soup, then it's art".
robo hippy

Just had that discussion a few days ago!

A lady wanted to come see my "studio"...
I told her that my pieces were in 2 studios, meaning "art studios", in my mind..

She said something like "No, I mean where you create your art"..

I told her that my shop was part of my house and that she was welcome to come on
up and visit..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing