This was triggered by putting together a Harbor Freight "radial
arms saw kit", intended for mounting a hand held circular saw
to it (an accident looking for a victim?). A friend bought it on
a whim, decided it wasn't what he expected and gave it to me
"because you do woodworking YOU might find a use for this.".

You've got a pair of parallel horizontal rods with a carriage
tht can ride back and forth on them. The support for the
two parallel horizontal rods slides up and down on a 1" diameter
rod attached to a metal base and has a threaded nut in
front of that for a 3/4" threaded rod with a handle on top
and a pair of metal fingers in a slot near the bottom. The
metal fingers are bolted on the other end into a curved slot
in the metal base.

++
++======== crank for raising and lowering carriage assembly
+ + =
| | = -- carriage ----
+---------+ +--------+ ++
+| +--------| |------------------| |
+| +--------| |------------------| |
+---------+ +---------+ ++
| | =
| | =
| | =
| | =
+-------------+
+-------------+

So I'm thinking - "If I mount a small router on the carriage
and mount this puppy so the router can travel along the
long axis of the lathe . . ."

SO - now I can machine grooves into a piece, or maybe use
it, with some adapting, to turn spiral grooves into a piece
on the lathe. THAT's when my question came up. I'd be
"machining" grooves, spirals and who knows what else
into a piece I'd turned. I mean hell, the SuperNova2 and
it's kin has indexing holes in the back already - a machinist
feature. And there are "duplicating" attachements for
most wood lathes. Make a pattern, crank a handle and
you've got a copy - sort of.

So where is that illusive line between wood turning - and
machining?

charlie b

charlieb wrote:

So where is that illusive line between wood turning - and
machining?

charlie b


It would not be unreasonable, I think, to conclude that there never was
a distinction that went any deeper than the typical materials each dealt
in and the amount of math involved. It takes a LOT of trig to describe
the shape of a baseball bat, bowl or pen. And that stuff by Bin Pho and
his merry band with all its little cutouts and open-ended arcs? Puleeeeze!

Volutes and involutes, tangents, FIM, TIR, concentricity, runout ... the
list could probably go on for pages. Yup, we could muck things up proper
if we half put our hearts into it.

In fact, we could muck it up enough that a 7th grader would never again
pick up a scraper and a block of cast-off wood to give it a try.

I've been away from that rarified world that machinists and tool & die
makers live in for so long that I'm not even sure if I could speak the
lingo anymore, much less do the math and make the part coming out the
other end of the die look like the drawing says it's supposed to look like.

But I can still make shavings. Made some nice ones today. Tomorrow, God
willing, I'll finish up a desk set from awesomely curly koa. The only
math I did was to calculate a setback from one end because the drawing
was wrongly dimensioned. (It showed how much wood to leave when the
actual important issue was how much tube to expose. Bad dimensioning ...
so I guess I DO remember a LITTLE something from the machine shops.)

Tomorrow I'll do a little more math ... I'll figure out how much money
it's going to take to get me to part company with the set.

Bill


--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


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So where is that illusive line between wood turning - and
machining?

charlie b

To me, people tend to think of woodturning as more free form artistic
endeavors than other aspects of woodwork.

I would submit that this is because the end results of a typical
turning project don't have to serve any other function than to be
pleasing to the eye. Most projects aren't drawn out beforehand,
carefully laid out on the wood, and certainly don't adhere to strict
dimensions as a mark of a successful piece.

Nope. I think most chuck up a piece of wood with a general design in
mind, and start cutting.

To further the confusion, I think some mistake the fact that they are
manipulating the cutter in their hands as a totally different
operation than holding the material like you would with table saw.
Apparently there is a harmonic flow that eminates from the wood when
you become one with it.

Sadly, most of the demos that I have enjoyed have been from turners
that took the "gimme just a minute while I hog this off" approach. It
sure takes the airy approach of an artistic turner in another
direction.

If we call an operator of a metal lathe a machinist, why do we call
woodturners something different? Probably so we can be charged more
for our tools (my ears are still ringing from the newest price
increases from Craft Supplies and Packard). Think about it; both spin
the material to be shaped or cut. Both can be operated manually or
semi autonomously, and in both cases the cutter/scraper/finishing
tools approach the material. So the only difference to me is for the
most part one holds the tool when woodturning (unless using a
duplicator or one of those monster hollowing rigs) and in the other
the machine holds the cutter, placed and directed by the operator.

I think it is all machining, but wood has the added aspect
differing from many other mediums of being much more flexible in its
form and characteristics, as well as how it is finished.

Just my 0.02, though..

Robert

Maybe its what's between you, the tool that does the cutting,
and the wood - as well as the precision required. Trying to
cut a curve with a cutter in an XY cutter table is tough
- Etch-A-Sketch type thing. Maybe it's having the tactile feed
back that a hand held cutting tool provides.

Then there's CNC machines - no tactile feed back but curves
are no problem - not much fun either.

But back to routering in flutes, spirals and the like. Are you
actually turning with a Legacy machine - or machining?

There's a similar issue with dovetails. Handcut and you have
an infinite range of possibilities. With a router and jig you
have a limited number of possibilities. And when you handcut
them you can make the pins smaller than any affordable
machine/jig combo can make.

Maybe it's a practicality thing. Use whatever you've got to
get close to where you want to be - then do the part that
requires the finesse turning that's best done by hand.

As for Bin Pho - he's one of those guys that uses turning
as a part of the art he creates - one medium as a part of
a greater whole. His stuff "speaks" to me and I like what
I hear. Others may have completely different opinions of
course.

Turning sure has gone in a lot of different directions - most
in an interesting and good direction. Room for everyone!

charlie b

Hello Charlie, my boring tool is about as machined as your would
fancy. the only element that keeps it in the "creative range" and away
from automation is the fact that you have to feed the tool in and out,
and manually place the direction and depth at your finger tips.

I have had some coments about my boring system as taking all the
creativity out of boring, but to me it takes enough extreme dexterity
to draw sweat out of me even on cold days.

cad

On Apr 11, 11:59 pm, Bill in Detroit wrote:
charlieb wrote:
So where is that illusive line between wood turning - and
machining?

charlie b

It would not be unreasonable, I think, to conclude that there never was
a distinction that went any deeper than the typical materials each dealt
in and the amount of math involved. It takes a LOT of trig to describe
the shape of a baseball bat, bowl or pen. And that stuff by Bin Pho and
his merry band with all its little cutouts and open-ended arcs? Puleeeeze!

Volutes and involutes, tangents, FIM, TIR, concentricity, runout ... the
list could probably go on for pages. Yup, we could muck things up proper
if we half put our hearts into it.

In fact, we could muck it up enough that a 7th grader would never again
pick up a scraper and a block of cast-off wood to give it a try.

I've been away from that rarified world that machinists and tool & die
makers live in for so long that I'm not even sure if I could speak the
lingo anymore, much less do the math and make the part coming out the
other end of the die look like the drawing says it's supposed to look like.

But I can still make shavings. Made some nice ones today. Tomorrow, God
willing, I'll finish up a desk set from awesomely curly koa. The only
math I did was to calculate a setback from one end because the drawing
was wrongly dimensioned. (It showed how much wood to leave when the
actual important issue was how much tube to expose. Bad dimensioning ...
so I guess I DO remember a LITTLE something from the machine shops.)

Tomorrow I'll do a little more math ... I'll figure out how much money
it's going to take to get me to part company with the set.

Bill

--http://nmwoodworks.com/cube

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On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:42:08 -0700, charlieb
wrote:

Maybe its what's between you, the tool that does the cutting,
and the wood - as well as the precision required. Trying to
cut a curve with a cutter in an XY cutter table is tough
- Etch-A-Sketch type thing. Maybe it's having the tactile feed
back that a hand held cutting tool provides.

Then there's CNC machines - no tactile feed back but curves
are no problem - not much fun either.

But back to routering in flutes, spirals and the like. Are you
actually turning with a Legacy machine - or machining?

Some would argue that when you're machining something on a metal
lathe, you're turning.

Seriously, though- there is one thing here that you're missing, which
I have lately been reminded of when spending a lot of time on the knee
mill making my little metal lathe. While you're correct that there is
no tactile feedback from a CNC machine, the argument simply doesn't
hold up when you're talking about a manual metalworking machine.
Rather than holding a handle, you are turning cranks, but the
vibration is transmitted through the handles, the feed has greater or
lesser resistance, cuts can climb and jerk the table around if you
feed in the wrong direction, etc.

It's also interesting to note that you can turn steel with a handheld
graver much the same as you can turn a wooden blank with a gouge.
The differences are in how the tool is made and ground, and in the
fact that metal peels while wood shears.

Now, there's also nothing wrong with routing spirals and grooves.
There seems to be a big hangup about machining (and I confess that
I've occasionally trapped myself into defending the "everything
freehand" position) that probably should not be there. The biggest
difference that I can tell, and the one that always seems to get my
goat is that wood simply cannot be held to the same tolerances as
metal or plastic. A guy can mill or turn something perfectly to begin
with, but there is always swelling and contraction with changes in
humidity and temperature, and if you're having a bad day, cracking and
distortion to boot. When you run any machine, you're machining. I
don't cut freehand on my table saw- I use the fence, miter gauge or a
jig.

If you're concerned about the routed spirals lacking something because
you used a jig to keep them even, there is always room to embellish
them after roughing them in- and that can be done by hand. We don't
have the same workholding, material feed systems and degree of
precision in woodworking as there is in a metalworking shop because it
simply is not needed- wood is soft compared to a hunk of steel, and
it's not nearly as likely to catch on a drill bit or mill and tear out
of your hands. They're just geared towards different materials.

And beyond that, there is the question of commerical woodworking- if
you've ever been in a modern cabinet shop or furniture manufactuer,
you'll see the same types of machines you'd expect to find in a metal
shop. CNC isn't limited to metal- it's just simply beyond the
financial reach of most people who don't require it to make a living.

There's a similar issue with dovetails. Handcut and you have
an infinite range of possibilities. With a router and jig you
have a limited number of possibilities. And when you handcut
them you can make the pins smaller than any affordable
machine/jig combo can make.

Maybe it's a practicality thing. Use whatever you've got to
get close to where you want to be - then do the part that
requires the finesse turning that's best done by hand.

Bingo! I've been making a lot of custom carved pistol grips lately,
and the fine tuning is done with hand tools- but to rough them into
shape, I favor a pnuematic die-grinder with a 40 or 60 grit sanding
disk. It's not a matter of skill with the chisels- it's a matter of
doing the job efficiently enough to actually turn a profit on the
things. Rather than spending time searching for the carving gouge
with just the right profile to pare away the inside of a concave
curved surface, I can use one tool that stays in my hand, does not
require sharpening, and will leave a surface that makes sanding and
hand-tuning that much easier.

As for Bin Pho - he's one of those guys that uses turning
as a part of the art he creates - one medium as a part of
a greater whole. His stuff "speaks" to me and I like what
I hear. Others may have completely different opinions of
course.

Turning sure has gone in a lot of different directions - most
in an interesting and good direction. Room for everyone!

charlie b

charlieb wrote:
This was triggered by putting together a Harbor Freight "radial
arms saw kit", intended for mounting a hand held circular saw
to it (an accident looking for a victim?). A friend bought it on
a whim, decided it wasn't what he expected and gave it to me
"because you do woodworking YOU might find a use for this.".

You've got a pair of parallel horizontal rods with a carriage
tht can ride back and forth on them. The support for the
two parallel horizontal rods slides up and down on a 1" diameter
rod attached to a metal base and has a threaded nut in
front of that for a 3/4" threaded rod with a handle on top
and a pair of metal fingers in a slot near the bottom. The
metal fingers are bolted on the other end into a curved slot
in the metal base.

++
++======== crank for raising and lowering carriage assembly
+ + =
| | = -- carriage ----
+---------+ +--------+ ++
+| +--------| |------------------| |
+| +--------| |------------------| |
+---------+ +---------+ ++
| | =
| | =
| | =
| | =
+-------------+
+-------------+

So I'm thinking - "If I mount a small router on the carriage
and mount this puppy so the router can travel along the
long axis of the lathe . . ."

SO - now I can machine grooves into a piece, or maybe use
it, with some adapting, to turn spiral grooves into a piece
on the lathe. THAT's when my question came up. I'd be
"machining" grooves, spirals and who knows what else
into a piece I'd turned. I mean hell, the SuperNova2 and
it's kin has indexing holes in the back already - a machinist
feature. And there are "duplicating" attachements for
most wood lathes. Make a pattern, crank a handle and
you've got a copy - sort of.

So where is that illusive line between wood turning - and
machining?


It seems to me, the line is thick enough.

Turning: You rotate the workpiece past a stationary or moving tool.

Machining: You rotate or/and move the tool past a stationary workpiece.

Other ideas?

BjarteR

Machining: To cut, shape, or finish by machine.
There is no distinction as to material, tool type or process. You machine
something on your lathe (wood) using hand held tools. I machine something on
my lathe (metal, plastic) using machine held cutting tools. You machine
something with a router. I machine something with a milling machine. Same
thing.

"Bjarte Runderheim" wrote in message
...
It seems to me, the line is thick enough.

Turning: You rotate the workpiece past a stationary or moving tool.

Machining: You rotate or/and move the tool past a stationary workpiece.

Other ideas?

BjarteR