There is current thread that touches on what happens to the tools of a
deceased woodturner. I have thought about how Lori will dispose of mine,
but I haven't done anything about it. I like Bill's club's approach and
wonder about other's thoughts and ideas. What have you done to help your
surviving spouse? I started a separate thread so as not to imply that
the 'gloat thread' was unfair. For all I know, it may well have been
fair, even generous.

IMHO, woodturner's widows/widowers either vastly over value "My dear
Hiram's/Harriet's beloved tools" or they haven't the foggiest notion of
their worth and "I just want to get rid of all that greasy junk that
filled our garage". Thus, a problem often arises re fair play not only
to the seller, but also to the buyer. Designated gifts are notoriously
unfair to all inheritors.

I bet you all have overheard conversations like "Wish I had known. I
would have paid her twice that much for his Stubby" or "She thinks old
Hiram's tools are worth a fortune just because he prized them so. She'll
never sell 'em at that price". "Sorry Jack, I just sold all of Hiram's
tools to some nice guy who came by the house and offered to take the
entire lot off my hands. Didn't get much, but at least I got rid of
them". "I left all that up to the adjudicator and the guy at the bank,
They are experts and will get me a good price for Harriet's stuff".

Like the mortgage on our homes which is a pledge that goes beyond the
grave (mort--gage), perhaps we should give our tools and equipment some
thought ahead of time. I don't know if the 'insured replacement' value
is the same as the 'estate value', but the 'reasonable & fair value' of
the equipment in even a modest shop is surprisingly significant in most
every estate. Do you know the value of yours?

As always, my intent is to pry up your thoughts that might help somebody
besides me. I'm not trolling for trouble.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Now you know Arch, this is one your real "food for thought" winners.

I have been thinking for a long time what will happen to my tools when
I am no longer able to use them for whatever reason that might be. I
have been using/collecting/and working tools for about 35 years.

I am a contractor; I have too many tools. I have 4 lathes of
different sizes (wtih an embarassing amount of tools), a couple of
bandsaws, a nice radial saw, a table saw, a few large routers (one that
lives in its table), 4 compressors, 17 nail guns (crap!) about 60
clamps of all sizes and kinds, a jointer, a board planer, 4 compound
miter saws, a large stationary sander, hundreds of feet of extension
cords, pneumatic tool hose, and too many small tools to count like
drills, saws, etc. You get the picture; that's just the woodworking
stuff.

A literal lifetime of accumulation.

Why not take the "club approach" a little farther, and give the tools
(they want) to the club? Used tools have little value most of the
time, and if stuck with them I am thinking my significant other would
be much more annoyed than anything else. I would gladly sell them for
a lot less than they are worth (when I am finished with them) to
someone that would use and enjoy them.

I have no children, and few relatives. None have a passion for
sawdust, so at this stage I think giving/selling cheap/ or bequething
them the tools would be a waste. And it is terribly hard for me to
think that a tool that I enjoyed using for a few years and one that
made me money would be trashed.

I am thinking of my own father who determined that the highest and best
use for his wonderful old radial saw - about 35 years old - was to cut
firewood small enough to fit in his potbelly stove
that he warmed his shop with while watching TV in the winter time. It
was like a swiss watch, all machined and cast with no plastic.

He sold it to a guy that "took it off his hands" for $100 since he said
he might be able to use it, but at least he could get it out of my
Dad's way for him. He talked my Dad (a little over 80 years old with 5
strokes under his belt) that he was indeed doing him a favor, and the
$100 was because he was a great guy.

I see this all the time. But now I am thinking, how many guys would
like to turn on a Jet mini, little Carbatec or a Nova 3K variable? For
some, they would certainly scoff at this. However, many in our little
group have families and college ahead of them or are on fixed income,
so they don't have the luxury of buying something to try it out.

We took a blind survey a few months ago, and the leadership of our
group was aghast to learn how few had Oneways or Powermatics for their
hobby. No one in our group is more than a really interested hobby guy,
so while there are a few white and mustard colored lathes, there aren't
many. I was the same with scroll chucks. I take it for granted as I
have two... but some in our club have none.

With the financial burdens of some of these folks, this is not likely
to change.

While the general carpentry tools could go somewhere else, it seems to
me at the least that the club could use the lathes for demo work, or
our open workshop days and then also have a lot of the necessary tools
to turn/sharpen for some to try out.

Hmmm... the wheels are turning, Arch. Nice one.

Robert

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:

Designated gifts are notoriously unfair to all inheritors.

I'm not at all sure that statement is true. If a particular inheritor
has appreciation for a particular set of tools, far better those should
go to that inheritor than that they should be farmed out for cash and
the cash split up among all, IMHO. Perhaps some frank and open
discussions of the sort immortals don't like to have (since it means
facing mortality) with potential heirs would clear all that up ahead of
time. I am, at present, not at all inclined to treat all my potential
inheritors equally, as some are more deserving than others, based on the
way they conduct their lives & finances.

thought ahead of time. I don't know if the 'insured replacement' value
is the same as the 'estate value', but the 'reasonable & fair value' of
the equipment in even a modest shop is surprisingly significant in most
every estate. Do you know the value of yours?

The value of a set of tools has a great variance. One of the big
variables is time - in both cases where I have bought lathes of the late
departed, there was considerable value attached to getting them and all
of their associated tooling out of the house in a prompt manner [real
estate agents do not like substantial lathes in a house on the market,
evidently]. I did not dicker, and consider the prices fair to both
parties for ~120 year old lathes, while being way ahead of the curve for
what you'd pay for an equivalent quality/weight new lathe. In both cases
outside assistance by friends of the late departed had been supplied to
the survivors in the pricing phase.

There are plenty of "used stuff dealers" who make their mint by buying
out *everything* in a house, tossing the real junk, and selling the rest
off piecemeal. The people they buy from could make more money if they
took the time to do that, but choose not to (being interested in moving
on with life, or blowing their inheritance at the track, or whatever).

As for replacement .vs. estate value, not even close. Estate tools are
used, and the buyer can't speak to the previous user - the buyer has to
make an assessment based purely on what they can see. "Replacement
value" means "new tools from the store" to me.

It is certainly worthwhile to document your tools, especially if you
have any particularly valuable ones which might not be obvious to your
survivors (such as "rare, collectible antique tools" that look like "old
junk" to your spouse), so they don't get fleeced if they come to dealing
with a lowlife, but the fact is, they are not going to get what you paid
for the stuff if it's ordinary common tooling, unless you got one heck
of a deal on everything, and they take months or years to part it all
out piecemeal. The same documentation will be of use if you are alive
and dealing with insurance. Keep a copy or two at home and one in the
safe deposit box.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In my experience, the best solution to this "problem" is available if the
deceased turner is a member of a club. There is usually a surviving friend
who can fairly price the tools, and see that they get into the hands of
people who will use and appreciate them. I have bought tools at what I
consider bargain prices at club-based estate sales--yet I think the estate
got more than it would have by having the stuff sold off as a lot to some
dealer.

Furthermore, there is a certain emotional value to the survivors in knowing
that the tools are in the hands of friends. And, I know that when I use a
tool that I obtained in this way, I think of the old friend from whom it
came.

Thanks for bringing this up, Arch. My eyes are a little watery right now.
You'll have to excuse me.

A most interesting and, for me, timely musing. I have a fairly large
collection like most of us- carpentry, turning, metalwork, machinist,
and general use junk tools. Some better than others, some maybe valuable
antiques, some just old tools.

A quick guess, but about 50% came from my father when he died. I don't
pick one of those up without having pop stand behind me and watch I
don't slice a finger, like when I first started. His old Kennedy chest
from a mechanic job before I was born now graces my (his/our) hobby and
fine-detail tools. I still use his Machinery's Handbook (c 1952), and
his micrometer. My brother has some of his other tools, and I'm sure has
the same feeling for these old friends we grew up with.

My son will get the Kennedy chest when he graduates Mechanic school. In
it will be his grandfther's micrometer, a 1952 edition of Machinery's
Handbook, a lignum vitae mallet also from his g'dad and an old wood and
brass folding rule.

We've had this discussion... one that was difficult for both of us
because no one likes to face his own mortality, and certainly not a
parent's mortality. My son's not much into woodworking. He prefers
welding and metal arts, but he wants the tools when it's his turn for them.

As he said during our talk about it... "I'm not that good at woodwork,
dad. I can use both of you watching out for my fingers"

Yeah, he's a bright one that kid, and I'm a very lucky father to have
someone who not only wants these things I hold important, but will use
them and treat them as they deserve. Tools going into yet another set of
good hands.

Thanks Arch, for the musing.

tears came to my eyes when u all started this thread I have my dads
lwo last carpenter tool chests he hand made over 60 years ago for
job site and another for at hand tools. I grew up with theses chests
and tools and remember fondly their being used daily , As it is I;m
the last of the chain of family owners and i suppose they will endup
in the estate sale hopefully their new owners will apprecitate them.
Some times in the evening when things have been stressful
and im burnt out from turning i sit and handle them and talk to his
memory and things seem to work them selfs out
tks..

(Arch) wrote:

There is current thread that touches on what happens to the tools of a
deceased woodturner. I have thought about how Lori will dispose of mine,
but I haven't done anything about it. I like Bill's club's approach and
wonder about other's thoughts and ideas. What have you done to help your
surviving spouse?

Three 'rules':

1. Let the kids and grandkids pick through what she doesn't want - she does
a fair amount of stuff herself.

2. Offer first crack at the remainder to friends.

3. Get one of my friends to price the un-mailable for local sale and the
mailable for sale on e-bay, or whatever is similar Then.

Another thought that comes to mind, though it's perhaps even more
difficult than talking with the folks that will likely be around when
you are gone about your demise, and what you should do with things, is
to consider which bits you are really going to be using (barring
unexpected demise, which is the sort your base plan should cover, as
your survivors get royally screwed if you've pretended that can't happen
and it does) right up until you go, and which ones you're just hanging
onto out of habit - and think about distributing some of the latter
while you are still around to enjoy the results of handing them on to a
new owner.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Robert, Lawrence, Leo, V. Radin, Don and Lobby, Your responses ornament
this unmoderated ng. Many thanks.

It's a very long lecture not for everyone, but some of you might enjoy
reading about the inheritance and dispersion of family tools and crafts
long ago in America.

http://www.easthamptonlbrary.org/lic...leylecture.htm


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:

Snip
Thus, a problem often arises re fair play not only
to the seller, but also to the buyer. Designated gifts are notoriously
unfair to all inheritors.
Snip
I don't know if the 'insured replacement' value
is the same as the 'estate value', but the 'reasonable & fair value' of
the equipment in even a modest shop is surprisingly significant in most
every estate. Do you know the value of yours?

Arch, this whole subject is a constant nag to me.
I am about to retire with no male next of kin, end of the family line. I
am a woodworker of more than 45 years and so have accumulated a
collection of purely user grade tools, including lathes and turning
tools.
When I was an apprentice in London there used to be a tool store in
Clapham that bought tool boxes from carpenter/joiner widows for a set
price of ?5 and would then part out the tools and offer them at a very
large profit to apprentices and craftsmen. It meant that someone
beginning a trade could afford good quality tools at less than new
prices. Sometimes a real gem like a Norris smoothing plane or shoulder
plane could be snapped up by a craftsman looking to improve his kit.
Now there was a huge profit in this for the store that was located very
close to a huge woodworking company Hamptons who employed hundreds of
top notch carpenters and joiners. Maybe it provided a very necessary
service to the trades and could be something that would work now.
I have to get my head around the fact that woodworking has now become a
multi million $ hobby industry and has very little to do with skill
disciplines and learning a trade. Sure there are people looking to learn
more than the "Norm" way of working with wood and all I can do is hope
that at my estate sale there will be someone looking for some user tools
and will not nail them to the rec. room wall!
Thanks for the musing

--
Remove no & spam to email

meet me at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

In article
,
Peter Hyde wrote:
I am about to retire with no male next of kin, end of the family line. I
am a woodworker of more than 45 years and so have accumulated a
collection of purely user grade tools, including lathes and turning
tools.
....
more than the "Norm" way of working with wood and all I can do is hope
that at my estate sale there will be someone looking for some user tools
and will not nail them to the rec. room wall!

You might wish to provide instructions to your executor about how to
find the old tools list (lathe fans - this is a mailing list, rather
than a newsgroup, dedicated to hand tool use & collection, which Peter
and I both frequent), and have a posthumous FMM posting to get them into
good hands...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Thanks Pete. Former apprentice, eh? That's a rare & endangered species
today.
I hadn't seen your very good site before. Your turnings are very
pleasing and well done, but I was particularly interested in your
beautiful strip built Abenaki (I think) canoe. I've been hoping to build
one for years, even started to cut some strips and plywood forms, but
ran out of space plus rediscovered my lathe. I wonder if you used the
West system epoxy and cedar strips?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Pete, Either my recent memory loss is getting worse or I didn't read
your slide show narratives. Sorry!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Robert, Lawrence, Leo, V. Radin, Don and Lobby, Your responses ornament
this unmoderated ng. Many thanks.

It's a very long lecture not for everyone, but some of you might enjoy
reading about the inheritance and dispersion of family tools and crafts
long ago in America.

http://www.easthamptonlbrary.org/lic...leylecture.htm


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch's link is missing the i in library and doesn't work. Here is the
corrected link.
http://www.easthamptonlibrary.org/li...leylecture.htm
Thanks Arch, it is of interest although a bit of a ramble!

(Arch) wrote:

It's a very long lecture not for everyone, but some of you might enjoy
reading about the inheritance and dispersion of family tools and
crafts long ago in America.


Thanks Arch. Saved it for later.

I recently bought several very nice power tools from a fellow who had
cancer and could barely even walk and couldn't help at all in testing
the tools or lifting. But he was selling everything off before he died.
So this is another possibility providing your (my) death is not
instant. It would be hard to give up the emotional attachment to the
shop but how satisfying to know your tools are going at a decent price
to people who want them.

He had bought all his tools from a Western Tool store and the owner of
the store was actually sending customers to this fellow to help him
out! How's that for customer service!! That's how I found out--I was
looking for a spindle sander and a band saw. When I told the owner they
were out of my price range he referred me to this fellow!

So we don't have to wait until we die.

Earl

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:

Thanks Pete. Former apprentice, eh? That's a rare & endangered species
today.
I hadn't seen your very good site before. Your turnings are very
pleasing and well done, but I was particularly interested in your
beautiful strip built Abenaki (I think) canoe. I've been hoping to build
one for years, even started to cut some strips and plywood forms, but
ran out of space plus rediscovered my lathe. I wonder if you used the
West system epoxy and cedar strips?


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch,
The Canoe is indeed cedar strip and West System Epoxy. Found out I was
allergic to epoxy with this endeavor. Seems it is a gene thing as the
caustic nature of the epoxy fumes attacks my eyelids. Ended up using old
wet teabags on my eyes every day after using the epoxy. Got through it
but never again! The canoe plans are in the Canoe Craft book and mine
is the Chestnut Prospector. 16 ft long with a 32' beam and will carry
900 lbs.
Total build time was around 80 hours. All the cedar came from a house
wrecker's yard for $30CDN
Now it is the lathe that I turn to for R & R
Ooooh Pun Pun Pun

--
Remove no & spam to email

meet me at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

In article ,
Ecnerwal wrote:



You might wish to provide instructions to your executor about how to
find the old tools list (lathe fans - this is a mailing list, rather
than a newsgroup, dedicated to hand tool use & collection, which Peter
and I both frequent), and have a posthumous FMM posting to get them into
good hands...

That is one of the reasons I joined the Porch :-)

--
Remove no & spam to email

meet me at:
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/pHyde/

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Peter Hyde wrote:
I am about to retire with no male next of kin, end of the family line. I
am a woodworker of more than 45 years and so have accumulated a
collection of purely user grade tools, including lathes and turning
tools.
...
more than the "Norm" way of working with wood and all I can do is hope
that at my estate sale there will be someone looking for some user tools
and will not nail them to the rec. room wall!

You might wish to provide instructions to your executor about how to
find the old tools list (lathe fans - this is a mailing list, rather
than a newsgroup, dedicated to hand tool use & collection, which Peter
and I both frequent), and have a posthumous FMM posting to get them into
good hands...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
========================
Hi,
Now that camcorders are available in most households, or one can be borrowed
from a friend, a visual inventory of all your machinery and hand tools, with
the description and your estimate of value right there. This can then be
burned to a CD or DVD for filing with your important papers. That way you
don't have to be worried about magnetic degradation over time. CD media
isn't permanent, but can be expected to outlast magnetic media by quite a
bit, so long as they're protected from excess heat. Or, if you're paranoid,
save a version in each media and store in separate locations. Either way,
your executor will have a sight and sound description of everything you have
(or had).

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:16:54 -0500, Arch wrote:

There is current thread that touches on what happens to the tools of a
deceased woodturner.

My eldest son, who likes to work with wood, will get my woodworking tools.
His younger brother, a walkin' talkin' fire-breathing Ford Mustang
fanatic, will get the automotive stuff.

My wife will then consider what she wants to keep of the rest and pass
everything else on to a couple close personal friends and the trashman.

Or so we've discussed.

Bill