In article ,
markzoom wrote:
As for banging nails in skirting board, You can be absolutely dead
effing sure people will bang them in walls, not so with properly
screwed skirting board.

The usual way is to fit battens to the wall if brick etc, and then nail to
those. Nail 'holes' are much easier to make good for decorating than screw
heads. Which will invariably show through after some time unless plugged
with wood which then rather negates the benefits of screws.

--
*It doesn't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
t...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
Are there any practical reasons why wiring should not be run
behind
skirting boards?

Nails.


There should be an IQ test by law before people are allowed to
contemplate carrying out DIY, the OP's question has such an obvious
answer to it that the question shouldn't even need to be asked....
:~(

I am sure that you also consider any subversive lowlife who doesn't
paint their internal walls regulation Magnolia utterly despicable.
Your ilk is a big reason I'm getting a place abroad, actually. I'm fed
up with the anals taking over the UK.

Mr Zoom, well go to free and easy Australia, where they make Part P look
like anarchy.

Sorry, there are other countries in the world people can go to live,
you know.
As for banging nails in skirting board, You can be absolutely dead
effing sure people will bang them in walls, not so with properly
screwed skirting board.

Come to think of it, the BBC Integer eco house had wiring behind skirting
for ease if fitting and future amending.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 31 Mar 2005 10:55:06 -0800, (markzoom)
wrote:


I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

Certainly not, but it would saved a lot of everybody's time if you had
taken a little more trouble to explain the actual situation.

No, I also wanted to know why it's not done in GB. Strikes me that if
skirting board was the prime place for running wiring (like it should
be, since it's the most logical) then everybody would know where most
of the wires run, instead of hoping you don't hit it when hanging a
shelf or pic.



It would be utterly pointless to run wiring INSIDE THE WALL behind a
skirting board.

In the UK, it is common practice to attach cables to walls and plaster
or plasterboard over them. Then the skirting is fixed over that.
Thus the cables are hidden. Since the skirting is usually nailed to
the wall through the plaster, one doesn't want cables there.

Fair enough, but I'd say that practice is flawed for a variety of
reasons (nails being one of them and no clue where the wires are being
another).



The house is made of hard lava stone and I have no idea where the
stones project close to the surface of the plaster, so I'm not going
to start cutting grooves in it.
It is in an earthquake zone, so I want to keep as much structural
integrity as possible ( no 50mm+ deep grooves !)
It IS by far more unsafe to run wires in walls because people DO hang
pictures and shelves there (unlike skirting boards), in every house,
hence the big market for cable detectors.
I may want to add low voltage wiring at a later stage, from green
energy generation, so I want electrics to be accessible.
I may want to add (suitably heavy duty) spurs to extensions some
distance from the consumer unit at a later stage.

Fine, so you are talking about a totally different situation with
different construction methods and a different environment.

??? To what?


You posted your original question on a UK newsgroup with no
information that would lead anybody to believe that you were doing
this in other than a standard UK construction house.

Eeer, there's no such thing as a standard construction UK house,
there's architecture here going right back to roman times. You are
right about new housing having become standard though, that's why most
of it is so utterly bland and ugly.
My intent was to find out why wiring doesn't run in/behind skirting
board since it is a very logical place for it.


Several people then took the trouble to explain to you why running
cables behind skirting was a) not a good idea and b) not permitted by
the wiring standards written to cover the UK situation.

The only PRACTICAL reason put was "nails". Well sorry, same goes for
walls.
As for UK regulations, many of them are an ass, in particular this
one.


Then you gradually introduce more information about the real situation
and complain that the advise you were given doesn't apply. Of course
it doesn't apply.

Aha, so now you confirm that UK building regs are an ass when applied
to anything other than a standard Bland Brit Box

And last but not least: I have absolutely no faith in alleged
"experts" (In particular those who work for governments), they tend to
be self-opinionated assholes out to create work for themselves or
braindead drones whom I have proved wrong on various occasions .
That's why I asked the question here, where there is a higher chance
of common sense replies from normal people.

You have had a great deal of common sense from common sense people. I
agree with you regarding your comments about governments and
over-regulation.

However for once, the standard used in the regulation is a reasonable
attempt to create a safe situation in the environment for which it was
intended - i.e. the practical recommendation *for the environment
intended* does line up with the standard reasonably well. Of course
it isn't perfect, but it is not generally inconvenient and has a lower
risk than if people runs cables where and in which direction they
think.

That is exactly what the regulations encourage. The average house
owner still has no idea where he will hit cables. If skirting boards
were the route of preference for wiring, that would be public
knowledge, never so with some complex set of design "rules" set out in
a big, expensive, illegible and unobtainable volume of beurocratic
dictats.
It seems far more illogical to me to bury (non-lighting) wiring in
inaccessible, unknown, expensive and difficult to uncover places than
closest to the sockets and easily renewable.
Aside from that, a few people are beginning to consider low voltage DC
circuits (0-12-24 nominal, say) and these should follow the shortest
route.






As you can see from the above, UK regulations would prevent me from
installing a common sense and adaptable wiring circuit.

I am not sure that they would if you were implementing the skirting as
a box.

Aha! Some here say no and some say yes.


They might be
fine for your bog-average brit box but not for more exotic foreign
structures that will be adapted to green energy in the coming years.

I hope that the next earthquake doesn't cause it to all fall down.

The new build houses there would tumble (as would a brit regulation
box). The old stone ones though have survived various earthquakes.

The upshot of this thread is that it appears there's no other
practical reason than nails against wiring in a skirting board.

Mark K.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
snip

I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

But that is not what you originally said, so yes I am saying that you
are stupid and from what you latter went on to say I would suggest
that many 7 year old kids have more understanding than you will ever
have.

You're a frecking moron IMO.

Hehehe! I'd rather be a "moron" about to retire to a nice island than
you, spending your petty life attempting to comply to the ever
changing dictats of fellow anals.
M.K.

"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
snip

I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

But that is not what you originally said, so yes I am saying that you
are stupid and from what you latter went on to say I would suggest
that many 7 year old kids have more understanding than you will ever
have.

You're a frecking moron IMO.

Hehehe! I'd rather be a "moron" about to retire to a nice island than
you, spending your petty life attempting to comply to the ever
changing dictats of fellow anals.

It is clear you cannot handle life.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In article ,
markzoom wrote:
No, I also wanted to know why it's not done in GB. Strikes me that if
skirting board was the prime place for running wiring (like it should
be, since it's the most logical) then everybody would know where most
of the wires run, instead of hoping you don't hit it when hanging a
shelf or pic.

It's only 'logical' if you have concrete floors, which luckily ain't the
norm in better quality UK houses.

--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Owain wrote in message ...
markzoom wrote:
I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

You're talking about manufacturing your own skirting trunking from wood
- which isn't really the same as skirting board.

I may want to add low voltage wiring at a later stage, from green
energy generation, so I want electrics to be accessible.

From a UK regs perspective, low voltage wiring could not be run in the
same compartment (single trunking) as mains, unless the LV cable is
insulated to mains voltage. I think Cat5 data cables usually are, but
phone, alarm, doorbell and others might not be. Multi-compartment
trunking is used in the UK to get round this, with cunning adaptor bits
where the lv faceplates are mounted over the mains compartment.

Yes, I was thinking of separating it with a batten.


From a practical perspective, running long lenths of mains in close
proximity to alarm/phone/speaker wiring may cause electromagnetic
incompatiblity (hum on speakers or phone, false triggering on alarms).

Thanks, I know.


Another thought - how are you heating the place? If you are having
skirting trunking all the way round, it might make it a bit awkward
getting CH pipes from under the floor to radiators on the wall above.

Good point but this house doesn't need much heating so radiators are
unnecessary. I am looking into various ideas like air conditioning and
heat pumps or ground source heating.
Heat pumps (like fridges, for one example) tend to be over 300%
efficient. IE it only takes 1kw to generate an equivalent of 3kw of
heat difference (absorbed from ambient ground, air or water). I am
looking into a variety of ways to exploit this efficiency. BTW. phase
change materials (paraffin wax is a suitable one) are good at storing
heat, absorbing/releasing a lot of it in the melting/hardening stage.

{Alternatively I could install some "Jerrys". NG posters like him are
full of hot air, if only the screeching noise can be dampened.)


I worked in an office where exactly what you are talking about was done,
a skirting offset from the wall about 2" with CH pipes and phone wiring
in the gap. (That was in the days when a fax machine was new and
exciting, so no gigabit ethernet to the desktop.)

Owain

And I bet you never had any problems with it!
Mark K.

On 2 Apr 2005 03:35:49 -0800, (markzoom) wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 31 Mar 2005 10:55:06 -0800, (markzoom)
wrote:


I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

Certainly not, but it would saved a lot of everybody's time if you had
taken a little more trouble to explain the actual situation.

No, I also wanted to know why it's not done in GB. Strikes me that if
skirting board was the prime place for running wiring (like it should
be, since it's the most logical) then everybody would know where most
of the wires run, instead of hoping you don't hit it when hanging a
shelf or pic.

You know that and I know that. Ideally there should be ducting in
walls to run cables without having to damage decorations etc. as there
frequently is elsewhere in Europe. Unfortunately, here in the UK
this is not usually done and the wiring standards are written to take
into account the normal method of construction.





It would be utterly pointless to run wiring INSIDE THE WALL behind a
skirting board.

In the UK, it is common practice to attach cables to walls and plaster
or plasterboard over them. Then the skirting is fixed over that.
Thus the cables are hidden. Since the skirting is usually nailed to
the wall through the plaster, one doesn't want cables there.

Fair enough, but I'd say that practice is flawed for a variety of
reasons (nails being one of them and no clue where the wires are being
another).



The house is made of hard lava stone and I have no idea where the
stones project close to the surface of the plaster, so I'm not going
to start cutting grooves in it.
It is in an earthquake zone, so I want to keep as much structural
integrity as possible ( no 50mm+ deep grooves !)
It IS by far more unsafe to run wires in walls because people DO hang
pictures and shelves there (unlike skirting boards), in every house,
hence the big market for cable detectors.
I may want to add low voltage wiring at a later stage, from green
energy generation, so I want electrics to be accessible.
I may want to add (suitably heavy duty) spurs to extensions some
distance from the consumer unit at a later stage.

Fine, so you are talking about a totally different situation with
different construction methods and a different environment.

??? To what?

To the typical method used in the UK. This is a UK-related newsgroup.



You posted your original question on a UK newsgroup with no
information that would lead anybody to believe that you were doing
this in other than a standard UK construction house.

Eeer, there's no such thing as a standard construction UK house,
there's architecture here going right back to roman times. You are
right about new housing having become standard though, that's why most
of it is so utterly bland and ugly.

The vast proportion of the housing stock and new housing was built
after 1850. The standard construction method, which is still widely
used, is to plaster walls and fix skirtings with nails. I didn't say
that I thought it was good, but it is why the wiring standards are
written to account for it.


My intent was to find out why wiring doesn't run in/behind skirting
board since it is a very logical place for it.

Fine, but you gave very little information at the outset and in a UK
newsgroup, in the absence of information to the contrary, the default
would be for people to respond on the basis of it being a standard
construction UK property.

For new properties, in the Building Regulations, there is now a
requirement for power outlets to be installed a minimum distance from
the floor which is a long way above a skirting height, so one would
still need vertical runs of cable. In any case, light switches are
not normally put on skirtings but higher on walls and there has to be
cable run to them - usually vertically.

Given those situations, it's fairly reasonable to have a rule saying
that cables may be run vertically or horizontally from fittings.
Therefore there is cable running behind plaster normally anyway.

Obviously one can't control people knocking nails into those, but if
you think about the sequence in building a house here it runs:

- walls
- first fit of cables to walls
- plaster or plasterboard
- fitting of skirting boards with nails
- final fit electrical

Given that sequence, it is clear that there is a risk of damage to
cables if they were run in the space where the skirting board is to be
fitted.



Several people then took the trouble to explain to you why running
cables behind skirting was a) not a good idea and b) not permitted by
the wiring standards written to cover the UK situation.

The only PRACTICAL reason put was "nails". Well sorry, same goes for
walls.
As for UK regulations, many of them are an ass, in particular this
one.

It is a reasonable attempt to prevent damage and danger during the
construction process based on the normal sequence of construction.
Obviously it can't prevent all sorts of stupid things happening
afterwards, but that is not the intention.




Then you gradually introduce more information about the real situation
and complain that the advise you were given doesn't apply. Of course
it doesn't apply.

Aha, so now you confirm that UK building regs are an ass when applied
to anything other than a standard Bland Brit Box

I think that that is overstating the situation. Until recently, the
wiring standards were not connected with Building Regulations.

As far as Building Regulations themselves are concerned, they are
written to cover the situation in the environment where they are to be
used. There are not that many caves in the middle of the ocean in
the UK, so it's a nonsense to suggest the UK Building Regulations are
stupid because they don't apply to caves.




However for once, the standard used in the regulation is a reasonable
attempt to create a safe situation in the environment for which it was
intended - i.e. the practical recommendation *for the environment
intended* does line up with the standard reasonably well. Of course
it isn't perfect, but it is not generally inconvenient and has a lower
risk than if people runs cables where and in which direction they
think.

That is exactly what the regulations encourage. The average house
owner still has no idea where he will hit cables.

That issue is independent of whether or not cables were allowed to be
hidden in the band behind a skirting. There still need to be cables
hidden to run to sockets and switches. Short of insisting that metal
conduit be used, whatever standard one has that allows cables to be
run unprotected and hidden somewhere has the potential that people can
knock in nails and hit a cable. There are plenty of situations
where people can do themselves harm with electricity, regardless of
regulation.

If skirting boards
were the route of preference for wiring, that would be public
knowledge, never so with some complex set of design "rules" set out in
a big, expensive, illegible and unobtainable volume of beurocratic
dictats.
It seems far more illogical to me to bury (non-lighting) wiring in
inaccessible, unknown, expensive and difficult to uncover places than
closest to the sockets and easily renewable.

Of course this could be done. One could have ductwork that runs in
the wall at skirting level and is constructed of appropriate material
and then have an arrangement to clip the decorative skirting to the
front. Unfortunately, this is not what the UK construction industry
does. It still follows the methods of a century ago. The wiring
standards simply follow after that and attempt to create the safest
situation during construction and afterwards.




Aside from that, a few people are beginning to consider low voltage DC
circuits (0-12-24 nominal, say) and these should follow the shortest
route.


There is a limit to what can be run from that before the wiring needs
to be incredibly thick. Even in the US with 110v wiring, anything of
size is run at 220v.






As you can see from the above, UK regulations would prevent me from
installing a common sense and adaptable wiring circuit.

I am not sure that they would if you were implementing the skirting as
a box.

Aha! Some here say no and some say yes.

There is skirting trunking on the market. Use of this is not
equivalent to hiding the cables behind plaster and skirting board.
However, most are not a thing of beauty.




They might be
fine for your bog-average brit box but not for more exotic foreign
structures that will be adapted to green energy in the coming years.

I hope that the next earthquake doesn't cause it to all fall down.

The new build houses there would tumble (as would a brit regulation
box). The old stone ones though have survived various earthquakes.

The upshot of this thread is that it appears there's no other
practical reason than nails against wiring in a skirting board.


If you change the environment to being outside the UK, then obviously
UK wiring standards don't apply. I would suggest that you do find out
which ones do for your island paradise, even if it is only paying off
the local government official.

In any case, it would be prudent to construct or buy the skirting with
non-combustible material.

The only other common-sense thing would be to run cables from sockets
and switches vertically or horizontally rather than at an angle.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 31 Mar 2005 15:08:44 -0800, (markzoom)
wrote:

Fortunately I don't have to give a blind **** what some snotty little
bunch of backward beurocrats deem "allowable", but what's safe and
sensible. I will therefore not carve cracks into structural walls in
an earthquake zone, nor will I put mains cabling into walls where
pictures and shelves are likely to be hung. I will instead construct
suitable skirting board to take my wiring and sockets and have a safe,
easily inspectable, aestetic and adaptable electrical system that can
be rewired, upgraded or modified in a day with the minimal of fuss and
expense.
Mark K.


If you had already decided that this was what you were going to do,
why did you bother posting the question with incomplete information in
the first place, wasting everybody's time and then behaving
obnoxiously?


I just decided it AFTER reading the posts, since it emerged that the
only *practical* reason it is allegedly "forbidden" is because of
nails. My information was not "incomplete" some just didn't notice the
word "practical" and digressed to preaching regulatory dictats. Your
obnoxious little friend Jerry, for one.

We also managed to touch the numerous ADVANTAGES of wiring in skirting
boards, something which those here capable of innovation and
independent thought might find interesting.

I don't think we wasted many people's time because most find heated
threads quite entertaining as you can see by the number of posts
compared to other threads :-P
Anyone is welcome not to post, I however remain grateful to all who
made useful comments.

Mark K.

Stefek Zaba wrote in message ...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

What if you have sockets on said skirtings though?

Then you would expect to find wires either vertically above or below
the said outlet.

Umm, the permitted-cable-routes explicitly allow *horizontal* runs from
visible accessories too... so not only would the clued-up
householder/electrician would consider the possibility of cables being
behind the skirting in an older property, but they're even Permitted
Under Current Regs. Admittedly, horizontal runs are rarer in practice
than vertical ones, but they're common enough in kitchens where there's
sockets all round the worktops...

Hehehe, so thanks to the building regs you can now expect to find
wires pretty much anywhere except for the most logical place for them,
in the skirting board. Bwahahaha!
Mark K.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
(Thinking back to the Victorian place I grew up in - tall (ish)
skirtings (c. 8") - all sockets surface mounted on the skirtings)

They're more like 18" in my 'public' rooms. And have got all the sockets
etc flush mounted in them.

A sensible arrangement (me thinks). Adding the sum health hazards and
injuries of the act of installing cabling in walls and installing
them in skirting boards, me thinks the boards are safest in total. The
dust alone is reason enough, particularly if it contains old lead
paint.

"Mark" wrote in message ...
markzoom wrote in message
om...
Are there any practical reasons why wiring should not be run behind
skirting boards?
Mark

How old is the house,

It's not in GB.
Old. Hard to tell how old but it was a stacked stone house originally
(not even cement or plaster), later rendered. There can't have been
any electricity at first, cables were tacked to the walls.

ive encountered gas, water, and electric running vertical horizontal and
every angle between, in walls and skirting.
Most Victorian/30s houses, which still foam over 50% of the housing stock,
had sockets installed on the skirting with no conduit and lead or rubber
cable.
Arguably less chance of someone at a latter date fitting shelves to the
skirting.
However we now live in nanny land, "practical" is a word Rarely found in
legislation.

Fortunately it's not in Nanny GB, it's where "practical" is of primary
importance, nay survival depended on it. I don't have to worry much
about regulations, but about practicality and safety. It looks like
skirting boards are the best way, I'll just make it obvious that wires
run in it.
Mark K.

"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
snip

Hehehe! I'd rather be a "moron" about to retire to a nice island
than
you, spending your petty life attempting to comply to the ever
changing dictats of fellow anals.

Oh **** off troll.

"andrewpreece" wrote in message ...
It's all very well specifying the directions in which cables may run to a
socket or switch,
but for this to be effective, everyone needs to know about it, a situation
that will never
materialise so long as humans are human. You can still stick a nail through
a properly
positioned cable if you have no idea where a properly positioned cable would
run. You
may argue that such people should be banned from doing their own diy, what,
putting
pictures up?

Andy.

Exactly! Well said.
Quite possibly so many people will start to ignore petty
over-beurocracy that it becomes uninforcable.

Pete C wrote in message . ..
On 30 Mar 2005 15:39:00 -0800, (markzoom)
wrote:

Are there any practical reasons why wiring should not be run behind skirting boards?
Mark

I'd use mineral insulated cable with a copper sheath, and make sure
the circuit is on an RCD. Probably still against the regs though.

The ends of the cable need to be sealed with the right glands as the
insulation absorb moisture, and it has to be bent carefully without
going below the min bend radius.

The cable is quite thin so would fit in a rebate channeled into the
skirting, but some derating may be necessary as it's not in free air.

cheers,
Pete.


Good suggestions, many thanks.
Mark K.

markzoom wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

(Thinking back to the Victorian place I grew up in - tall (ish)
skirtings (c. 8") - all sockets surface mounted on the skirtings)

They're more like 18" in my 'public' rooms. And have got all the sockets
etc flush mounted in them.


A sensible arrangement (me thinks). Adding the sum health hazards and
injuries of the act of installing cabling in walls and installing
them in skirting boards, me thinks the boards are safest in total. The
dust alone is reason enough, particularly if it contains old lead
paint.

In my mum's place the cables were/are almost always in the floor voids
rather than in the skirtings. This is pretty common for pre 1900 houses
since the elctrics were fitted after the place was built, and ripping
off the skirtings to install wires would be a PITA.

(the gas pipes for the lights were plastered into the walls when the
place was built though)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

markzoom wrote:

Fortunately it's not in Nanny GB, it's where "practical" is of primary
importance, nay survival depended on it. I don't have to worry much
about regulations, but about practicality and safety. It looks like

To be fair the UK wiring regs represent very good practice from the
point of view of both practicality and safety. So following the spirit
of them will not do you any disservice even if you have no obligation to
do so.

skirting boards are the best way, I'll just make it obvious that wires
run in it.

There is nothing in the UK regs that would preclude doing that either
(if the sockets were also on the skirtings), and as you say given the
construction of the house, that may be the best way forward.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...
In article ,
markzoom wrote:
As for banging nails in skirting board, You can be absolutely dead
effing sure people will bang them in walls, not so with properly
screwed skirting board.

The usual way is to fit battens to the wall if brick etc, and then nail to
those. Nail 'holes' are much easier to make good for decorating than screw
heads. Which will invariably show through after some time unless plugged
with wood which then rather negates the benefits of screws.

Well, that's what I intend to do, and run wiring in between. I may fit
a small inspection panel in the skirting board, mainly to give people
a chance to look behind it and discover the wires. The mere presence
of an inspection cover will give a pretty clear indication that
there's stuff behind it.

Something else has crossed my mind: the fact that per regulations live
mains wires are, electrically, only a mm or two away from all
plumbing (assuming that the earth wire connects to the pipework as per
dictats).....

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message ...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...
"markzoom" wrote in message
om...
snip

I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

But that is not what you originally said, so yes I am saying that you
are stupid and from what you latter went on to say I would suggest
that many 7 year old kids have more understanding than you will ever
have.

You're a frecking moron IMO.

Hehehe! I'd rather be a "moron" about to retire to a nice island than
you, spending your petty life attempting to comply to the ever
changing dictats of fellow anals.

It is clear you cannot handle life.

Hehehe, I certainly handle it well enough not to have to be dictated
to by anal retentives.




_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Many thanks for your comprehensive replies, I now have enough info to
proceed in the most suitable manner.
Mark K.

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 2 Apr 2005 03:35:49 -0800, (markzoom) wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 31 Mar 2005 10:55:06 -0800, (markzoom)
wrote:


I hope you're not implying I'm "stupid". I have a number of good
reasons for wanting to run wires IN a purpose made skirting board:

Certainly not, but it would saved a lot of everybody's time if you had
taken a little more trouble to explain the actual situation.

No, I also wanted to know why it's not done in GB. Strikes me that if
skirting board was the prime place for running wiring (like it should
be, since it's the most logical) then everybody would know where most
of the wires run, instead of hoping you don't hit it when hanging a
shelf or pic.

You know that and I know that. Ideally there should be ducting in
walls to run cables without having to damage decorations etc. as there
frequently is elsewhere in Europe. Unfortunately, here in the UK
this is not usually done and the wiring standards are written to take
into account the normal method of construction.





It would be utterly pointless to run wiring INSIDE THE WALL behind a
skirting board.

In the UK, it is common practice to attach cables to walls and plaster
or plasterboard over them. Then the skirting is fixed over that.
Thus the cables are hidden. Since the skirting is usually nailed to
the wall through the plaster, one doesn't want cables there.

Fair enough, but I'd say that practice is flawed for a variety of
reasons (nails being one of them and no clue where the wires are being
another).



The house is made of hard lava stone and I have no idea where the
stones project close to the surface of the plaster, so I'm not going
to start cutting grooves in it.
It is in an earthquake zone, so I want to keep as much structural
integrity as possible ( no 50mm+ deep grooves !)
It IS by far more unsafe to run wires in walls because people DO hang
pictures and shelves there (unlike skirting boards), in every house,
hence the big market for cable detectors.
I may want to add low voltage wiring at a later stage, from green
energy generation, so I want electrics to be accessible.
I may want to add (suitably heavy duty) spurs to extensions some
distance from the consumer unit at a later stage.

Fine, so you are talking about a totally different situation with
different construction methods and a different environment.

??? To what?

To the typical method used in the UK. This is a UK-related newsgroup.



You posted your original question on a UK newsgroup with no
information that would lead anybody to believe that you were doing
this in other than a standard UK construction house.

Eeer, there's no such thing as a standard construction UK house,
there's architecture here going right back to roman times. You are
right about new housing having become standard though, that's why most
of it is so utterly bland and ugly.

The vast proportion of the housing stock and new housing was built
after 1850. The standard construction method, which is still widely
used, is to plaster walls and fix skirtings with nails. I didn't say
that I thought it was good, but it is why the wiring standards are
written to account for it.


My intent was to find out why wiring doesn't run in/behind skirting
board since it is a very logical place for it.

Fine, but you gave very little information at the outset and in a UK
newsgroup, in the absence of information to the contrary, the default
would be for people to respond on the basis of it being a standard
construction UK property.

For new properties, in the Building Regulations, there is now a
requirement for power outlets to be installed a minimum distance from
the floor which is a long way above a skirting height, so one would
still need vertical runs of cable. In any case, light switches are
not normally put on skirtings but higher on walls and there has to be
cable run to them - usually vertically.

Given those situations, it's fairly reasonable to have a rule saying
that cables may be run vertically or horizontally from fittings.
Therefore there is cable running behind plaster normally anyway.

Obviously one can't control people knocking nails into those, but if
you think about the sequence in building a house here it runs:

- walls
- first fit of cables to walls
- plaster or plasterboard
- fitting of skirting boards with nails
- final fit electrical

Given that sequence, it is clear that there is a risk of damage to
cables if they were run in the space where the skirting board is to be
fitted.



Several people then took the trouble to explain to you why running
cables behind skirting was a) not a good idea and b) not permitted by
the wiring standards written to cover the UK situation.

The only PRACTICAL reason put was "nails". Well sorry, same goes for
walls.
As for UK regulations, many of them are an ass, in particular this
one.

It is a reasonable attempt to prevent damage and danger during the
construction process based on the normal sequence of construction.
Obviously it can't prevent all sorts of stupid things happening
afterwards, but that is not the intention.




Then you gradually introduce more information about the real situation
and complain that the advise you were given doesn't apply. Of course
it doesn't apply.

Aha, so now you confirm that UK building regs are an ass when applied
to anything other than a standard Bland Brit Box

I think that that is overstating the situation. Until recently, the
wiring standards were not connected with Building Regulations.

As far as Building Regulations themselves are concerned, they are
written to cover the situation in the environment where they are to be
used. There are not that many caves in the middle of the ocean in
the UK, so it's a nonsense to suggest the UK Building Regulations are
stupid because they don't apply to caves.




However for once, the standard used in the regulation is a reasonable
attempt to create a safe situation in the environment for which it was
intended - i.e. the practical recommendation *for the environment
intended* does line up with the standard reasonably well. Of course
it isn't perfect, but it is not generally inconvenient and has a lower
risk than if people runs cables where and in which direction they
think.

That is exactly what the regulations encourage. The average house
owner still has no idea where he will hit cables.

That issue is independent of whether or not cables were allowed to be
hidden in the band behind a skirting. There still need to be cables
hidden to run to sockets and switches. Short of insisting that metal
conduit be used, whatever standard one has that allows cables to be
run unprotected and hidden somewhere has the potential that people can
knock in nails and hit a cable. There are plenty of situations
where people can do themselves harm with electricity, regardless of
regulation.

If skirting boards
were the route of preference for wiring, that would be public
knowledge, never so with some complex set of design "rules" set out in
a big, expensive, illegible and unobtainable volume of beurocratic
dictats.
It seems far more illogical to me to bury (non-lighting) wiring in
inaccessible, unknown, expensive and difficult to uncover places than
closest to the sockets and easily renewable.

Of course this could be done. One could have ductwork that runs in
the wall at skirting level and is constructed of appropriate material
and then have an arrangement to clip the decorative skirting to the
front. Unfortunately, this is not what the UK construction industry
does. It still follows the methods of a century ago. The wiring
standards simply follow after that and attempt to create the safest
situation during construction and afterwards.




Aside from that, a few people are beginning to consider low voltage DC
circuits (0-12-24 nominal, say) and these should follow the shortest
route.


There is a limit to what can be run from that before the wiring needs
to be incredibly thick. Even in the US with 110v wiring, anything of
size is run at 220v.






As you can see from the above, UK regulations would prevent me from
installing a common sense and adaptable wiring circuit.

I am not sure that they would if you were implementing the skirting as
a box.

Aha! Some here say no and some say yes.

There is skirting trunking on the market. Use of this is not
equivalent to hiding the cables behind plaster and skirting board.
However, most are not a thing of beauty.




They might be
fine for your bog-average brit box but not for more exotic foreign
structures that will be adapted to green energy in the coming years.

I hope that the next earthquake doesn't cause it to all fall down.

The new build houses there would tumble (as would a brit regulation
box). The old stone ones though have survived various earthquakes.

The upshot of this thread is that it appears there's no other
practical reason than nails against wiring in a skirting board.


If you change the environment to being outside the UK, then obviously
UK wiring standards don't apply. I would suggest that you do find out
which ones do for your island paradise, even if it is only paying off
the local government official.

In any case, it would be prudent to construct or buy the skirting with
non-combustible material.

The only other common-sense thing would be to run cables from sockets
and switches vertically or horizontally rather than at an angle.

John Rumm wrote in message ...
markzoom wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

(Thinking back to the Victorian place I grew up in - tall (ish)
skirtings (c. 8") - all sockets surface mounted on the skirtings)

They're more like 18" in my 'public' rooms. And have got all the sockets
etc flush mounted in them.


A sensible arrangement (me thinks). Adding the sum health hazards and
injuries of the act of installing cabling in walls and installing
them in skirting boards, me thinks the boards are safest in total. The
dust alone is reason enough, particularly if it contains old lead
paint.

In my mum's place the cables were/are almost always in the floor voids
rather than in the skirtings. This is pretty common for pre 1900 houses
since the elctrics were fitted after the place was built, and ripping
off the skirtings to install wires would be a PITA.

Sure, that's a popular place to put wires. In my case it's not an
option though because the beams and floorboards are exposed to the
room below. Replacing the skirting is not a big problem though.
M.K.


(the gas pipes for the lights were plastered into the walls when the
place was built though)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:02:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In my experience, no wiring inspection is performed in the case
of a "full survey". Indeed, the state of all services is explicitly
excluded from a full survey. If the surveyor happens to notice
something extremely obvious like a bit of rubber wire with the
insulation all fallen off, you _might_ just get a comment along
the lines of "Some deteroration to the wiring was noticed in the
loft, and we would recommend that you engage a speciallist company
to carry out a more detailed inspection".

Indeed. It must be one of the easiest job's in the world. Walk round
the house and note if it has gas, electricty, water etc. Return to the
office, click the boxes (yes/no and - if they bought the expensive
version of the software "did it look dodgy") on the input form and press
print.

The software then prints out one paragraph based on your above for each
"present" with either "Some deterioration" or "No deterioration", and
with "and" or "but" after the comma.

I always assume they pay a backhander to the building society and the
whole thing is a joint con to take money off the householder. I was
reinforced in this view when the last time I did this they found
something that wasn't entirely standard and bugged out with the final
clause in the software "You must employ a structural engineer".

Now that was a different story: I got a detailed and accurate report
which found a fault that the surveyer had missed, said good things as
well (ie, instead of "the masonary is over 10 years old and may require
repointing" I got "the masonary is in good condition for its age").
Also, significantly, he charged less for the real job than the BS
employed surveyor had charged for his idle stroll. Since then I'd pay
for the absolute minimum that the BS require - viewing it as an
additional charge on getting the mortgage and of no other value - and
employ a SE for my own information.

I've decided "surveyor" in this context is based on survey in the old
sense of "cast an eye over".
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)