In the process of laying a concrete base for a 16x8 workshop which I will be
ordering soon. Base consists of 50mm type1 sub-base and 100mm ready mixed
concrete. I now want to sort out electrics to the workshop and stumbled
across this website

http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...er/print.phtml

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc). My objective is to do as much as possible, e.g. sourcing
all required materials, parts etc and laying the armoured cable etc - then
contacting a qualified electrician to actually connect the circuit. Despite
being technically minded and well skilled in IT - I am not confident enough
to touch electrics and besides, I am unqualified anyway!. I intend to have a
strip light and perhaps 4 double sockets for power tools etc.

Thanks
John

In article ,
"pmakesp" writes:
In the process of laying a concrete base for a 16x8 workshop which I will be
ordering soon. Base consists of 50mm type1 sub-base and 100mm ready mixed
concrete. I now want to sort out electrics to the workshop and stumbled
across this website

http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...er/print.phtml

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

It looks like something you might find in a pre WW-II book in the UK.
No, we don't do it like that anymore.

There have been lots of threads in this newsgroup over the years on
connecting up garages/sheds/greenhouses/etc to an electricity supply.
Search back over them.

My objective is to do as much as possible, e.g. sourcing
all required materials, parts etc and laying the armoured cable etc - then
contacting a qualified electrician to actually connect the circuit. Despite

I would leave sourcing the parts to the electrician if you are
not wiring it yourself. You could deg the trench in preparation.

being technically minded and well skilled in IT - I am not confident enough
to touch electrics and besides, I am unqualified anyway!. I intend to have a
strip light and perhaps 4 double sockets for power tools etc.

--
Andrew Gabriel

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

In the UK, current practices are entirely different in almost every aspect.

I intend to have a strip light and perhaps 4 double sockets for power
tools etc.

Personally, I'd wire this up with a "garage" consumer unit, such as

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...06156&id=63138.

This would be connected to the house via armoured cable, the size of which
depends on the length your cable run, which you don't state. If using a
cable size calculator, remember to ensure that you still have some voltage
drop left to run the circuits. Either do a proper calculation, or go one
size bigger. The house end would run to an appropriate MCB fitted into a
spare way on the consumer unit.

The 6A runs the lighting circuit. The 16A, which can be uprated to as much
as 32A, if desired, runs the sockets. I'd stick a weatherproof socket
outside as well, to run the lawnmower. Inside, use metal clad sockets and
conduit. It will look nicer and be much tougher against inevitable dings
whilst working. Up to 20A, you can use 2.5mm T&E PVC cable inside the
conduit. Any more and you need 4mm or even 6mm, unless you run in a ring. A
radial may be easier in conduit, though.

Earthing will probably be TT via an earthing rod. You can let the
electrician you are planning to hire test this to ensure an adequete earth.
However, there's nothing stopping you driving it in before he/she arrives.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

In the UK, current practices are entirely different in almost every
aspect.

Personally, I'd wire this up with a "garage" consumer unit, such as

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...06156&id=63138.

This would be connected to the house via armoured cable, the size of which
depends on the length your cable run, which you don't state. If using a
cable size calculator, remember to ensure that you still have some voltage
drop left to run the circuits. Either do a proper calculation, or go one
size bigger. The house end would run to an appropriate MCB fitted into a
spare way on the consumer unit.

The 6A runs the lighting circuit. The 16A, which can be uprated to as much
as 32A, if desired, runs the sockets. I'd stick a weatherproof socket
outside as well, to run the lawnmower. Inside, use metal clad sockets and
conduit. It will look nicer and be much tougher against inevitable dings
whilst working. Up to 20A, you can use 2.5mm T&E PVC cable inside the
conduit. Any more and you need 4mm or even 6mm, unless you run in a ring.
A
radial may be easier in conduit, though.

Earthing will probably be TT via an earthing rod. You can let the
electrician you are planning to hire test this to ensure an adequete
earth.
However, there's nothing stopping you driving it in before he/she arrives.

Christian.

Thanks Christian. Didn't realise that american site was so 'off the mark'!!

The info you've provided is top class, and the link to the actual product on
screwfix is the icing on the cake!!. Thanks alot.

In article ,
pmakesp wrote:
I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious
power differences etc).

Couldn't be bothered reading it all - I stopped at the bit about burying
plastic conduit to take the cable.

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.



Don't knock it - some people pay good money for that!

snip (no pun intended)

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:15:19 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:35:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

First we have
http://www.esfi.org/sub.php?l0=news&l1=20020904.html


In the UK, current practices are entirely different in almost every aspect.


Then we have
http://www.firesafetytoolbox.org.uk/...ty/default.htm

Adjusting for population it seems the UK is over 3 times as dangerous!



Err. No. Read more carefully.

From the first reference:

"According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC),
statistics indicate there are 40,000 residential fires annually caused
by problems with electrical wiring systems, claiming more than 350
lives, causing thousands of injuries from electric shocks and burns
and resulting in more than $2 billion in personal property damage. "

This refers to fixed wiring.

From the second:

"Each year, electrical faults, accidents or misuse of electrical
equipment cause 28,000 fires in homes."

This includes electrical appliances, and it is well known that many
more fires are caused by appliance misuse and failure than from fixed
wiring.








..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:15:19 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:35:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

First we have
http://www.esfi.org/sub.php?l0=news&l1=20020904.html


In the UK, current practices are entirely different in almost every aspect.


Then we have
http://www.firesafetytoolbox.org.uk/...ty/default.htm

Adjusting for population it seems the UK is over 3 times as dangerous!



If you look at

http://www.firesafetytoolbox.org.uk/...dfirefacts.htm

you will see that only 2000 out of 28000 fires were due to fixed
wiring and that 5 lives were lost. Five too many of course, but
adjusting for population (say 60m vs. 250m), the U.S. rate of 350
would equate to 84, some 17 times worse for the U.S.

So as Christian says, it is about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals (or wire-nuts if you prefer)




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:35:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I'm aware that this is an American site but just wondered if it is
accurate
enough to follow for my own project (apart from the obvious power
differences etc).

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

Possibly - but with the US supply you'll survive this bit of sado-masochism.

Earth - sorry ground - potential is somewhat hit and miss over there but
often it lies fairly centrally between the two wires so you've only got
55volts or so of shock.

In article ,
"G&M" writes:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:35:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes to
your genitals.

Possibly - but with the US supply you'll survive this bit of sado-masochism.

Earth - sorry ground - potential is somewhat hit and miss over there but
often it lies fairly centrally between the two wires so you've only got
55volts or so of shock.

You maybe thinking of a construction site supply in UK.
US supply is 120V with one side grounded, or 120-0-120V
if you have access to both hot legs.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"G&M" writes:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:35:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

You are joking! US electrics are about as safe as attaching electrodes
to
your genitals.

Possibly - but with the US supply you'll survive this bit of
sado-masochism.

Earth - sorry ground - potential is somewhat hit and miss over there but
often it lies fairly centrally between the two wires so you've only got
55volts or so of shock.

You maybe thinking of a construction site supply in UK.
US supply is 120V with one side grounded, or 120-0-120V
if you have access to both hot legs.

--
Andrew Gabriel

I agree Andrew. There are three wires coming into my house which is
atypical for most homes built or rewired within the last 40 years or so. Two
conductors are at 120 volts RMS 60 Hertz AC above/to ground (earth). And
there is 240 volts RMS between the two live wires. 200 amp is minimum in
most cases, cos. of electric heating.
In other words we have a single phase centre tapped 240 volt supply. The
centre tap conductor is the neutral and is earthed, once (also earthed at
the electric utility distribution transformer) at the point it enters the
main CU of the residence.
So the maximum voltage to earth 'is' 120 volts RMS.
The two wires or legs each at 120 volts are sometimes, incorrectly referred
to as 'Phases' which they are not.
Could be confusing to someone when they do get into, occasionally, in some
commercial installations a real three phase situation.
Which here for small installations would usually be 208/117 Star/Delta with
centre point earthed. In fact our electric heaters, for example, are
listed/boxed with two ratings 230 or 208 volts. Same 'R' different 'V
squared'. About a 20% difference!
That centre tapped 55 volts to ground/earth construction site transformer
idea is ingenious and safer than North American 117/120 even with what are
called here GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) i.e. same current unbalance
principle as an RCD, I think?

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:50:35 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:37:02 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Err. No. Read more carefully.

From the first reference:

"According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC),
statistics indicate there are 40,000 residential fires annually caused
by problems with electrical wiring systems, claiming more than 350
lives, causing thousands of injuries from electric shocks and burns
and resulting in more than $2 billion in personal property damage. "

This refers to fixed wiring.

It is not clear what it refers to.

It says "electrical wiring systems". I would take that to mean fixed
wiring installations.





From the second:

"Each year, electrical faults, accidents or misuse of electrical
equipment cause 28,000 fires in homes."

This includes electrical appliances, and it is well known that many
more fires are caused by appliance misuse and failure than from fixed
wiring.


A US number that seems more equivalent
http://www.esfi.org/sub.php?l0=hs&l1=index
including the appliances is 69,000

Even worse then.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:50:35 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:



If you look at

http://www.firesafetytoolbox.org.uk/...dfirefacts.htm

you will see that only 2000 out of 28000 fires were due to fixed
wiring and that 5 lives were lost. Five too many of course, but
adjusting for population (say 60m vs. 250m), the U.S. rate of 350
would equate to 84, some 17 times worse for the U.S.

An improbable ratio.

The US number certainly includes more causes than "Fixed Wiring".

Really?


If you include heating and air conditioning systems in the U.S. it
adds up to over 100,000 fires.

There were 860 deaths in the U.S. and 97 deaths in the UK per year.


However you count it, the rate of problems is around an order of
magnitude higher for a 5:1 population.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

If you include heating and air conditioning systems in the U.S. it
adds up to over 100,000 fires.

There were 860 deaths in the U.S. and 97 deaths in the UK per year.

However you count it, the rate of problems is around an order of
magnitude higher for a 5:1 population.

I went along to a workshop in New York a few years ago which
someone (may have been IEEE) organised. I was actually there
for a Unix session which was a dead loss, but there were several
others going on too, and one was about precisely this issue.
I only sat in for an hour or so (wish I'd sat throught the whole
thing now), but what I gleened was that US engineers are well
aware of the appaling safety issues with US wiring installations
compared with Europe, Australia, etc. Lots of stats were produced
(ISTR deaths caused by electrical fires is the figure which is way
above the equivalent per-capita figures for all other developed
countries). Even electrocutions were slightly higher than most
220-240V countries (which is ironic as most people would assume
quite the opposite, and I often see people say in newsgroups US
120V must be safer than 240V).

Anyway, I think the issue was that these engineers who were fully
aware of the issue have no power to change anything, and are met
with disbelief when trying to explain the problem to their
government, trade bodies, and electrical equipment manufactures,
who would rather things just stayed as they are.[*]

Subsequently, I had a conversation about this with someone in
the US electrical manufacturing industry. One thing that appears
to be significantly different is people buying products based on
safety/price. His comment was "no one will buy an outlet costing
a dollar, because someone else makes one costing 60c." This is
quite the opposite in the UK -- I would guess that the more
expensive quality products such as MK and Crabtree have a very
significant market share. Personally, I pretty well always buy MK,
even though there will be a cheaper no-name equivalent on the
shelf just next to it for 1/3rd of the price, and this is by no
means uncommon. Anyway, this guy pointed out that his company do
manufacture higher quality versions of many of their products,
but generally these are only bought in Europe -- no market for
them in the US. If anyone here who normally uses UK DIY store
ever gets a chance to wander around the electrical section in a
US equivalent store, you can see exactly what this chap is talking
about.

* I've seen the same issues being raised by US lighting engineers
about US vehicle lighting regs being 40 years behind Europe's,
but the US government won't take any notice as the US vehicle
manufactures don't want to have to redesign their 40 year old
lighting systems.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 23 Jun 2004 11:21:04 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



Subsequently, I had a conversation about this with someone in
the US electrical manufacturing industry. One thing that appears
to be significantly different is people buying products based on
safety/price. His comment was "no one will buy an outlet costing
a dollar, because someone else makes one costing 60c."

Yes, I've had very similar conversations.

This is
quite the opposite in the UK -- I would guess that the more
expensive quality products such as MK and Crabtree have a very
significant market share. Personally, I pretty well always buy MK,
even though there will be a cheaper no-name equivalent on the
shelf just next to it for 1/3rd of the price, and this is by no
means uncommon.

I do the same and have been weeding out the original unnamed fittings
that were installed in the house. I bought quite a lot for kitchen,
conservatory and workshop use and sent lists to several electrical
wholesalers for a quote. Significant discounts can be had on MK so
although the prices are still a bit higher than unbranded stuff, it's
not as bad as 3:1

I've had to use other manufacturer's products such as isolating
switches from Schneider etc. for the workshop machines where MK
didn't have a suitable product, but that is about all.

Anyway, this guy pointed out that his company do
manufacture higher quality versions of many of their products,
but generally these are only bought in Europe -- no market for
them in the US. If anyone here who normally uses UK DIY store
ever gets a chance to wander around the electrical section in a
US equivalent store, you can see exactly what this chap is talking
about.

It really is horrendously poor crap and I am not surprised that it
causes fires.


* I've seen the same issues being raised by US lighting engineers
about US vehicle lighting regs being 40 years behind Europe's,
but the US government won't take any notice as the US vehicle
manufactures don't want to have to redesign their 40 year old
lighting systems.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl