On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:53:28 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 09:33:35 +0000 (GMT), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote:

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
The average DIYer is better off with mains drill with torque control for
driving. In most cases a socket is handy. Then no problem of batteries
going kaput and change the whole tool. Unfortunately these tools are not
cheap, but something you may have for 20 plus years, so not that bad.

Now that *is* sense. Cordless drills seem very attractive at first
thought, but in practice for intermittent DIY use are likely to be a pain.
And at about the same money, a mains drill will out perform a cordless one
every time.

.... for drilling. But a cordless is invaluable for screw driving.



Yes, and actually unless you are going to drive really large screws, a
relatively small tool will work well because it can be highly geared.



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On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:47:50 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

A nice contribution John, thanks very much for the effort. I haven't
read the follow-ups yet, so apologies if any of this has already been
mentioned.

Having read it all through and inserted some detailed comments below, my
overall impression is that it is very useful information, but would fit
better if presented in a more informal way.

Phil, I think you'll find that by the time the font etc. is reduced
for going onto a web page this won't be so large.

Also, I feel that having a quite structured introduction is a good
idea.

From several recent threads, I think that it's become clear that there
are ranges of views on

a) tool selection criteria. I'm probably towards one end of the
spectrum on that, there are some people at the other and a range of
different views in between. I think that if we include these as John
has done, then it is easy to point people to the FAQ section and they
can figure out for themselves where they sit. This would go some way
towards avoiding apples and pears arguments when the "customer" wanted
to buy bananas.

b) scope of DIY. This feeds into a) to some extent. I have a very
broad view of what it includes which goes quite some way beyond
putting up a few shelves (the IoP definition of DIY). Again, as you
have suggested below, this plays a part in a).


That should condensed it
somewhat too, and it could then be an excellent lead-in to a discussion
of which tools are needed for specific tasks (why should I want an
electric drill?), and which are specialist tools without which certain
tasks cannot realistically be achieved, eg Worktop jig and router.

That's a good idea. Sections like this could be slotted in as and
when and should be relatively timeless.




Following that, a section on what to look for on specific tools would be
good. e.g. if you buy a router make sure it has dust extraction if you
ever want to use it indoors.

I'd say dust extraction anyway, possibly face mask and definitely eye
and ear protection :-) but I take your point.

I do think it's important to try to keep sections like this generic
rather than getting manufacturer and model specific. Otherwise there
will be a lot of work in keeping it up to date as well as it becoming
enormous.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , Andy Hall
writes
(the IoP definition of DIY)

the Institute of Psychiatry has a definition of DIY ???

--
dave @ stejonda

Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

Kress (Wickes) is firmly pro, and aimed at that market.

As an aside, Wickes (grey) and Kress are not synonomous... for example
the Wickes 1/2" rebadged router is made by Freud not Kress. Nice router,
shame is they charge more for it that Freud do!

That is true. You can ask at the enquiry desk at Wickes and they will tell
you were it is made. If it is Germany, it is a Kress. The more
knowledgeable people there will tell you the OEM name.

The point is that Wickes grey range is not like B&Q, Homebase, Focus ranges.
They are sourced from pro makers.



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Doctor Evil wrote:

Kress (Wickes) is firmly pro, and aimed at that market.

As an aside, Wickes (grey) and Kress are not synonomous... for example
the Wickes 1/2" rebadged router is made by Freud not Kress. Nice router,
shame is they charge more for it that Freud do!


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

A cheap "percussion", some SDSs are being described as "rotary hammer", with
a new, small, masonry bit can drill a nice neat hole in brick which an SDS
would have difficulty doing.



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"Phil Addison" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 09:33:35 +0000 (GMT), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote:

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
The average DIYer is better off with mains drill with torque control
for
driving. In most cases a socket is handy. Then no problem of
batteries
going kaput and change the whole tool. Unfortunately these tools are
not
cheap, but something you may have for 20 plus years, so not that bad.

Now that *is* sense. Cordless drills seem very attractive at first
thought, but in practice for intermittent DIY use are likely to be a
pain.
And at about the same money, a mains drill will out perform a cordless
one
every time.

.... for drilling. But a cordless is invaluable for screw driving.

!invaluable", a bit more convenient you mean. A mains driver will
outperform a battery driver. I was screwing in about 200 6" screws. The 12v
would not look at them. What I did it was use the SDS with a driver bit in.
The very slow speed and high torque meant the srews went in no problem.
Also, when screwing down floorboards with 2.5" screws, the 12v Bosch could
only just manage. Some screws needed a mains drill on them to get them home.


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wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff wrote:
wrote :-

, and torque slip sds vs those without.

Hmm , got a dewalt sds at work with a clutch, infuriating, only
possible use
is up a ladder or single handed

the purpose is to avoid physical injury, which is liable to happen with
sds if the bit jams. SDS use lower gearing and higher torques than trad
mains drills, and are a genuine risk.

They can easily break your wrist.


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In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
Now that *is* sense. Cordless drills seem very attractive at first
thought, but in practice for intermittent DIY use are likely to be a
pain. And at about the same money, a mains drill will out perform a
cordless one every time.

.... for drilling. But a cordless is invaluable for screw driving.

If I've got lots to do, like floorboards, I use my mains drill for
screwing.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I'm not sure what the SDS hammer action would do to an ordinary masonry
drill?

I'd certainly advise against *buying* a keyless chuck for an SDS - ok I
suppose if it comes for free. Might be worth it if you're a jobbing pro to
avoid carting around an ordinary drill as well. But not for DIY.

--
*You! Off my planet!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:00:15 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

will love in a cupboard for 362 days a year,

love?

Bosh (green bodied),

Bosch.

Wicks own brand (grey bodied),

Wickes

Bosh (blue bodied),

Consistent at least. B-)

Bear in mind that Black & Decker and DeWalt(*) are a bit like Bosch
green/blue they just try to hide it better.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Plowman (News) wrote :-

I'd certainly advise against *buying* a keyless chuck for an SDS - ok I
suppose if it comes for free. Might be worth it if you're a jobbing pro to
avoid carting around an ordinary drill as well. But not for DIY.

My opinion is based on owning the bosch with interchangable chucks for 3+
years. Together with a pair of 12v cordless I cannot see a need for anything
else.
Without the swappable chuck then yes you would also need a normal mains
drill aswell.
As a first purchase for a serious diy'er I could not think of a better tool,
you have sds, drilling and screwing all in the one quality package.

Regards Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want normal
hammer when you have sds ?


Agree that SDS is superior system to hammer but to answer your question as I
found out when my Makita SDS drill packed up, a cheapo 700W hammer drill
handles up to 8mm holes in masonry, thats most of my requirements,
adequately well at considerably less cost and less than half the weight of a
SDS drill. Up a ladder that may equate to more safely and some cheap SDS
drills weigh considerably more to the point of being unmanageable.

Jim A

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want normal
hammer when you have sds ?


Agree that SDS is superior system to hammer but to answer your question as
I
found out when my Makita SDS drill packed up, a cheapo 700W hammer drill
handles up to 8mm holes in masonry, thats most of my requirements,
adequately well at considerably less cost and less than half the weight of
a
SDS drill. Up a ladder that may equate to more safely and some cheap SDS
drills weigh considerably more to the point of being unmanageable.

Even with 8mm and a new masonry bit, with some bricks it can be hard going.
An SDS just sails through.

BTW, did you get the Makita fixed? If so how much did it cost?



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New draft posted in a separate thread....


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:14:30 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Jeff" wrote in message
m...

Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

A cheap "percussion", some SDSs are being described as "rotary hammer", with
a new, small, masonry bit can drill a nice neat hole in brick which an SDS
would have difficulty doing.

That depends on the SDS.....



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:51:29 +0000, "dave @ stejonda"
wrote:

In message , Andy Hall
writes
(the IoP definition of DIY)

the Institute of Psychiatry has a definition of DIY ???

Plumbers.


Look it up and you will feel like heaving a brick through their
window........



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:14:30 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Jeff" wrote in message
m...

Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck
for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point if
you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want
normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

A cheap "percussion", some SDSs are being described as "rotary hammer",
with
a new, small, masonry bit can drill a nice neat hole in brick which an
SDS
would have difficulty doing.

That depends on the SDS.....

SDSs are designed for big stuff.


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Jeff wrote:
Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck
for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point
if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want
normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

IMlimitedE the hammer action of sds is far OTT for drilling some
bricks, and can smash them to pieces before the hole is done. Just a
little hammer can be a good thing sometimes.

NT

In message , Andy Hall
writes
In message , Andy Hall
writes
(the IoP definition of DIY)

Plumbers.

Look it up and you will feel like heaving a brick through their
window........


quote
trying a bit of DIY on your plumbing system can not only be dangerous
and expensive, but could also drop you in hot water with the law!
/quote

ahaha :-

--
dave @ stejonda

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want
normal
hammer when you have sds ?


Agree that SDS is superior system to hammer but to answer your question
as
I
found out when my Makita SDS drill packed up, a cheapo 700W hammer drill
handles up to 8mm holes in masonry, thats most of my requirements,
adequately well at considerably less cost and less than half the weight
of
a
SDS drill. Up a ladder that may equate to more safely and some cheap SDS
drills weigh considerably more to the point of being unmanageable.

Even with 8mm and a new masonry bit, with some bricks it can be hard
going.
An SDS just sails through.

BTW, did you get the Makita fixed? If so how much did it cost?

No, its BER thanks partly to the new cost of the similar model being about
half what I paid, at the stroke of a pen neatly invalidating any costing
calculations made at purchase. When I have a new project which requires SDS
will possibly get the Wickes/Kress with the underslung motor as the balance
is superb. And when its "clapped out" Kress will take it back to avoid
upsetting those with environmental sensitivites.

Jim A

wrote:

IMlimitedE the hammer action of sds is far OTT for drilling some
bricks, and can smash them to pieces before the hole is done. Just a
little hammer can be a good thing sometimes.

That is where the realy good speed control of the better drills comes
in. You can have it spin slow and hammer gently!

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

In article .com,
wrote:
IMlimitedE the hammer action of sds is far OTT for drilling some
bricks, and can smash them to pieces before the hole is done. Just a
little hammer can be a good thing sometimes.

I find mine ok even for small holes in London stocks by using a very slow
speed.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want
normal
hammer when you have sds ?


Agree that SDS is superior system to hammer but to answer your question
as
I
found out when my Makita SDS drill packed up, a cheapo 700W hammer
drill
handles up to 8mm holes in masonry, thats most of my requirements,
adequately well at considerably less cost and less than half the weight
of
a
SDS drill. Up a ladder that may equate to more safely and some cheap
SDS
drills weigh considerably more to the point of being unmanageable.

Even with 8mm and a new masonry bit, with some bricks it can be hard
going.
An SDS just sails through.

BTW, did you get the Makita fixed? If so how much did it cost?

No, its BER thanks partly to the new cost of the similar model being about
half what I paid, at the stroke of a pen neatly invalidating any costing
calculations made at purchase.

This is one reason why not to buy some kit as it may date too soon and as
prices are dropping and quality rising in a market that has far from
stabilised, a new tack has to be viewed.

When I have a new project which requires SDS
will possibly get the Wickes/Kress with the
underslung motor as the balance
is superb. And when its "clapped out" Kress
will take it back to avoid upsetting those with
environmental sensitivites.

I have one of these and balance is good for such a big drill. Occasionally
Wickes have deals on tools and this can go for £110.




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On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:56:22 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



A cheap "percussion", some SDSs are being described as "rotary hammer",
with
a new, small, masonry bit can drill a nice neat hole in brick which an
SDS
would have difficulty doing.

That depends on the SDS.....

SDSs are designed for big stuff.



That really depends on what you mean by "big" and the drill.

I've had very good results for 6-8mm holes and above for plugs into
hard brick using my Bosch Multidrill (4kg SDS with exchangeable chuck)
as well as a 2kg Bosch. It doesn't automatically explode the brick
on the other side if one takes reasonable care.

Obviously the Multidrill will do "big stuff" as well.


At and below the 6-8mm range into lighter masonry I manage perfectly
well with the Makita 14.4v

That's not to say that a mains drill in there somewhere might not be
useful, but it's by no means a requirement.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 7 Mar 2005 05:15:41 -0800, wrote:

Jeff wrote:
Phil Addison wrote :-

Don't know if its just my cheapie, but once you swap the sds chuck
for a
keyless, you loose the hammer. This means there is not much point
if you
have a normal electric drill as well.

I don't have another mains drill, but why on earth would you want
normal
hammer when you have sds ?

Regards Jeff

IMlimitedE the hammer action of sds is far OTT for drilling some
bricks, and can smash them to pieces before the hole is done. Just a
little hammer can be a good thing sometimes.

NT



That depends a great deal on the SDS, your choice of bits and the
motor control.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:16:40 +0000, "dave @ stejonda"
wrote:

In message , Andy Hall
writes
In message , Andy Hall
writes
(the IoP definition of DIY)

Plumbers.

Look it up and you will feel like heaving a brick through their
window........


quote
trying a bit of DIY on your plumbing system can not only be dangerous
and expensive, but could also drop you in hot water with the law!
/quote

ahaha :-


See what I mean? That was one of the funny lines. Others I found
insulting to the point that I wrote to them and told them that I would
never contemplate giving any of their members any work as a result.

They did admit that it was unnecessarily OTT and they "would look into
it". THey haven't so I won't "look into" putting any business their
way. Not that I would have done in the first place, but any
organisation that thinks that it's OK to be rude to its potential
customers can be invited to enjoy sex and travel in my view.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

John Rumm wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

Mid range tools

Bosh (green bodied), Black & Decker, Skill, Wicks own brand (grey
bodied), Freud, DeWalt


??????


Which were you questioning? (DeWalt being in mid range?)

Yes, I thought they were pretty firmly in the Pro camp: certainly equiv
to Bosch blue rather than green.


I beg to differ. Rebadged B&D most of it.

Really? B&D must have improved a _lot_ since I last used any (although
AIUI they used to source their stuff from all over, all different
quality, so there was no canonical B&D). Certainly the 14.4 cordless and
18V jigsaw (DW933) I have are vastly better than the Ryobi-sourced
(AIUI) PPPro ones I was using before (which I think were Ryobi's
equivalent of Bosch green stuff).

Doctor Evil wrote:
"Phil Addison" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 09:33:35 +0000 (GMT), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote:


In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:

The average DIYer is better off with mains drill with torque control

for

driving. In most cases a socket is handy. Then no problem of

batteries

going kaput and change the whole tool. Unfortunately these tools are

not

cheap, but something you may have for 20 plus years, so not that bad.

Now that *is* sense. Cordless drills seem very attractive at first
thought, but in practice for intermittent DIY use are likely to be a

pain.

And at about the same money, a mains drill will out perform a cordless

one

every time.

.... for drilling. But a cordless is invaluable for screw driving.


!invaluable", a bit more convenient you mean. A mains driver will
outperform a battery driver. I was screwing in about 200 6" screws. The 12v
would not look at them. What I did it was use the SDS with a driver bit in.
The very slow speed and high torque meant the srews went in no problem.
Also, when screwing down floorboards with 2.5" screws, the 12v Bosch could
only just manage. Some screws needed a mains drill on them to get them home.

Odd, I thought Bosch were quite good. Driving screws into flooring is
the canonical task for which a cordless excels on convenience (no
tripping over mains leads) and control. Mind you I tend to use 50 or
60mm x 6mm Goldscrews which I think are waxed and single-threaded so
maybe other screws are harder work. Perhaps too much for a 12V without
optimum gearing, but both my 14.4Vs are a joy to use for this sort of
job. They're certainly torquey enough to shear the screws if you give
them too much welly (and/or they hit a particularly tough bit of wood).
I've had no problem with 4" x No 12s either (except bit slip).

Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Doctor Evil wrote:


I must admit I haven't had a mains drill
with good enough speed and/or
torque control to use for driving. If you
can get one for the cost of a
cheap cordless then there's a good
argument to go for that.


Approx £90-100 Bosch. There may be other makes around.

I think you can get a good cordless (i.e. with good batteries & charger)
for that.

However since you can get a Bosch
cordless (which I assume has a reasonable
battery and charger) for £75 - £100 then
if a good mains drill is similar price I'd say
go for the cordless, unless it's really only ever
for drilling a couple of holes once in a blue moon.


The problem with battery drills is that the batteries run down and have to
be expensively replaced. Most DIYers, once a project is done, leave the
drill in the cupboard for maybe years on end.

John Rumm addresses the question of 'What is DIY (to you)' in his piece.
I implicitly addressed it when I said "unless it's really only ever
for drilling a couple of holes once in a blue moon" OK I exaggerated a
bit but the point I was making (or trying to) is that if you just need a
drill for occasional use get mains, but just because you're a DIYer
doesn't mean you won't use it much so if you find yourself working with
the tool more frequently than the time it takes for the batteries to
self-discharge to a useless state then consider getting a _good_ cordless.


A mains drill will always
work and has far more torque than a battery drill.

Depends on the drill: single-speed mains drills don't have huge torgue
compared to quite cheap cordlesses.






In my view a complete drill kit is:

1. mid range 12v drill./driver
2. £80 plus SDS drill with rotary stop
3. cheap 700w general pupose mains hammer drill.

Can't see the use of 3 if you've got 1 and 2:
I use a dW 14.4 (non-combi i.e. no hammer
action) with universal/cordless drill bits (£8 for set of
5 from sfx) with which I can drill everything short
of quarry tiles,


Masonry bits for hammering, if you don't you blunt them pronto.

The universal/cordless ones cut through masonry without hammering and
without going blunt (unless you let them spin uselessly on material
that's too hard for them and overheat them).

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Doctor Evil wrote:


I must admit I haven't had a mains drill
with good enough speed and/or
torque control to use for driving. If you
can get one for the cost of a
cheap cordless then there's a good
argument to go for that.


Approx £90-100 Bosch. There may be other makes around.

I think you can get a good cordless (i.e. with good batteries & charger)
for that.

I'm certain you can. The point is that the mains drill can do more, except
run away from a power socket. It will also outlive the battery drill too.

I'm sure some must available cheaper than the Bosch.


However since you can get a Bosch
cordless (which I assume has a reasonable
battery and charger) for £75 - £100 then
if a good mains drill is similar price I'd say
go for the cordless, unless it's really only ever
for drilling a couple of holes once in a blue moon.


The problem with battery drills is that the batteries run down and have
to
be expensively replaced. Most DIYers, once a project is done, leave the
drill in the cupboard for maybe years on end.

John Rumm addresses the question of 'What is DIY (to you)' in his piece.
I implicitly addressed it when I said "unless it's really only ever
for drilling a couple of holes once in a blue moon" OK I exaggerated a
bit but the point I was making (or trying to) is that if you just need a
drill for occasional use get mains, but just because you're a DIYer
doesn't mean you won't use it much so if you find yourself working with
the tool more frequently than the time it takes for the batteries to
self-discharge to a useless state then consider getting a _good_ cordless.

A mains drill will always
work and has far more torque than a battery drill.

Depends on the drill: single-speed mains drills don't have huge torgue
compared to quite cheap cordlesses.

I disagree after using a 500W mains drill to finish off screw driving that a
12v Bosch could not handle.

In my view a complete drill kit is:

1. mid range 12v drill./driver
2. £80 plus SDS drill with rotary stop
3. cheap 700w general pupose mains hammer drill.

Can't see the use of 3 if you've got 1 and 2:
I use a dW 14.4 (non-combi i.e. no hammer
action) with universal/cordless drill bits (£8 for set of
5 from sfx) with which I can drill everything short
of quarry tiles,


Masonry bits for hammering, if you don't you blunt them pronto.

The universal/cordless ones cut through masonry without hammering and
without going blunt (unless you let them spin uselessly on material
that's too hard for them and overheat them).



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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

John Rumm wrote:

John Stumbles wrote:

Mid range tools

Bosh (green bodied), Black & Decker, Skill, Wicks own brand (grey
bodied), Freud, DeWalt


??????


Which were you questioning? (DeWalt being in mid range?)

Yes, I thought they were pretty firmly in the Pro camp: certainly equiv
to Bosch blue rather than green.


I beg to differ. Rebadged B&D most of it.

Really? B&D must have improved a _lot_ since I last used any (although
AIUI they used to source their stuff from all over, all different quality,
so there was no canonical B&D). Certainly the 14.4 cordless and 18V jigsaw
(DW933) I have are vastly better than the Ryobi-sourced (AIUI) PPPro ones
I was using before (which I think were Ryobi's equivalent of Bosch green
stuff).

PPPro are not Ryobi. They are manufactured by GMC Australia.

http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm

"Doctor Evil" wrote in
:

The point is that Wickes grey range is not like B&Q, Homebase, Focus
ranges. They are sourced from pro makers.

Recently 'acquired' a grey Wickes jigsaw. Draper. Not, in my opinion,
either a pro maker or re-labeller. (Actually, better than I expected.)

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

"Doctor Evil" wrote in
:

Yes, I thought they were pretty firmly in the Pro camp: certainly equiv
to Bosch blue rather than green.

I keep seeing that Bosch blue = pro. The other day, in Isaac Lord's shop, I
noticed a green Bosch box with 'Pro' emblazoned. Does this mean the Bosch
blue = really pro and Bosch green = pro like PPRo?

--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:50:35 +0000, John Stumbles
wrote:



Really? B&D must have improved a _lot_ since I last used any (although
AIUI they used to source their stuff from all over, all different
quality, so there was no canonical B&D). Certainly the 14.4 cordless and
18V jigsaw (DW933) I have are vastly better than the Ryobi-sourced
(AIUI) PPPro ones I was using before (which I think were Ryobi's
equivalent of Bosch green stuff).

Mmmmm.....


Generally I've felt that the Bosch green range has been better on
average than B&D - some products of which are pretty poor like the
planers, jigsaws, sanders and cordless multiple tools.

It's worth checking the origin of Bosch green stuff. For example, I
have a few items originating from Scintilla such as a sabre saw, which
are excellent.

I've had good and conistent results from Bosch blue products such as
the blue jig saws.


DeWalt seems to have more variation depending on tool type and source.
For example, the routers, originating from Elu like the DW625 are best
of breed with the possible exception of Festo. I posted a
disappointment about the biscuit jointer. I have a laminate trimmer
bought in the U.S. which is good, as is a cordless screwdriver. A
mitre saw stand is good, but a mitre saw is pipped at the post by
Makita. I have a contractor portable table saw which is solid and
does the job and is better than others in its class.

So I'd say with DW that careful research is a good idea. They have
some really good stuff, some mediochre and some complete garbage.







--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Rod Hewitt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Evil" wrote in
:

Yes, I thought they were pretty firmly in the Pro camp: certainly equiv
to Bosch blue rather than green.

I keep seeing that Bosch blue = pro. The other day, in Isaac Lord's shop,
I
noticed a green Bosch box with 'Pro' emblazoned. Does this mean the Bosch
blue = really pro and Bosch green = pro like PPRo?

You can normally tell Bosch Pro by the prefix in the model number, Pro
models are prefixed with "G" and DIY models are prefixed with "P".

In article ,
Rod Hewitt wrote:
Recently 'acquired' a grey Wickes jigsaw. Draper. Not, in my opinion,
either a pro maker or re-labeller. (Actually, better than I expected.)

I'd always thought Draper made nothing, but simply re-labelled other's
stuff?

--
*Prepositions are not words to end sentences with *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Hewitt wrote:
Recently 'acquired' a grey Wickes jigsaw. Draper. Not, in my opinion,
either a pro maker or re-labeller. (Actually, better than I expected.)

I'd always thought Draper made nothing, but simply re-labelled other's
stuff?


They have a Draper Expert (Pro) range, but who makes it is anyone's guess.

On 7 Mar 2005 21:42:51 GMT, Rod Hewitt
wrote:

"Doctor Evil" wrote in
:

Yes, I thought they were pretty firmly in the Pro camp: certainly equiv
to Bosch blue rather than green.

I keep seeing that Bosch blue = pro. The other day, in Isaac Lord's shop, I
noticed a green Bosch box with 'Pro' emblazoned. Does this mean the Bosch
blue = really pro and Bosch green = pro like PPRo?



No. It means that Isaac Lord recently went to the Woodworking Show
at Alexandra Palace and had a selection of promotional products from
Bosch.

You need to look at models and prices.

I had to look at the tearful experience of negotiating the north
London traffic on a Friday. It was challenging, even without a blue
light extravaganza on the A1/A406 confluence.....

Bloody plod, shouldn't be allowed out....









--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl