Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

How much worse might happen in the hands of a less than competent
person?

Mixed installations? Oh yes - they're allowing that too.

Now, is that blue live, or not? Should it be?

And what about the black? Is that an "old" black, or a new one? Live
then, huh?

Yes, *I* know that a new multi-core SWA has a grey core in it and an
"old" one has a red core.......

Whaddya think?

Sugar Free wrote:

Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

It is actually a special get out clause for that nice Mr. Prescot.

So when the death rate rises as a result of part P, he can point to the
swapping of colours, throw up his hands in dispair, and say its all
down to harmonisation with those pesky europeans and hence "not my fault
gov". If it was not for them, then the half billion or so it has cost
you so far would have all been worth it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Sugar Free writes:
Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

The trade press has been full of such concerns from electricians.
Some companies have banned the use of the new colours in any of
their premises where they would be mixed with the old colours in
the same installation, on health and safety grounds.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:30:42 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Sugar Free writes:
Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

The trade press has been full of such concerns from electricians.
Some companies have banned the use of the new colours in any of
their premises where they would be mixed with the old colours in
the same installation, on health and safety grounds.

It now means that any colour except Green&Yellow could be live.
And the latter two if it's found in CH controls.

However is the situation that different from the _majority_ of domestic
installations that already have many black wires that carry switch live.
(I know it _should_ be sleeved in red or brown)?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Sugar Free wrote :-
in message

snip
Whaddya think?

......the world is run by idiots

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

at home I cannot do my own electrical work, at work I do occasional
installations and daily 110, 240 and 3 phase work and fault finding

imho the biggest mistake was changing fire extinguisher colours from easily
identifiable colours to all red and the idiots are daft enough to do the
same with wiring

Regards Jeff

Jeff wrote:
Sugar Free wrote :-
in message

snip

Whaddya think?


.....the world is run by idiots

Err, Yes! I agree 100 percent with you here :-((

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

Me too :-(
Can any one tell me what a ladder footer can do in the event of a ladder
slipping?

at home I cannot do my own electrical work, at work I do occasional
installations and daily 110, 240 and 3 phase work and fault finding

Me too again :-(
I also have a City and Guild certificate and a licence issued by the
home office that legalizes me to work on high powered, high voltage
systems, but I am not allowed to re-wire some of my house. :-(

imho the biggest mistake was changing fire extinguisher colours from easily
identifiable colours to all red

I have to agree with you on this. A quick glance told you what fire the
extinguisher was capable of containing.

and the idiots are daft enough to do the
same with wiring

Perhaps we should have all cores coloured red, with sleeving to define
what runs through it. :-)

Red insulator with a blue sleeve denotes neutral
Red insulator with a brown sleeve denotes live
Red insulator with no sleeve denotes a switched live
Red insulator with no sleeve denotes a bell wire that runs at low voltage.
etc. ;-)

Going back to the fire extinguisher problem. I once asked a Lancashire
Fire Brigade officer why the sound of a fire alarm had never been
standardized. He looked very sheepish and claimed that it was not needed.
Well before, I asked this question I had been in MFI when their alarm
went off and I thought that it was just a door open alarm. Just goes to
show how quick you could get fried.

I am led to believe that buy and spew were amazed at how quick one of
their stores went up in a fire a couple of years ago.

Perhaps they didn't know they were selling anything inflammable in their
stores and how warm it was before the fire :-(

Dave

"Dave" wrote
| Me too :-(
| Can any one tell me what a ladder footer can do in the event
| of a ladder slipping?

He can write up the accident book for you when you're immobilised in
plaster.

Owain

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:25:23 -0000, "Jeff" wrote:


Sugar Free wrote :-
in message

snip
Whaddya think?

.....the world is run by idiots

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

This is all written by people who probably haven't even been potty
trained.



at home I cannot do my own electrical work, at work I do occasional
installations and daily 110, 240 and 3 phase work and fault finding

I know......



imho the biggest mistake was changing fire extinguisher colours from easily
identifiable colours to all red and the idiots are daft enough to do the
same with wiring

I completely agree. I know a couple of firemen and they feel that
this was one of the worst things ever done. To be fair they do also
say that fire extinguishers are of limited use because most people
don't know how to use them anyway, especially in the stress of the
situation. However, they did mention that there have been cases where
fires have developed more than they might have done if people had been
sure on which extinguisher to use.





Regards Jeff



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave wrote:

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

Me too :-(
Can any one tell me what a ladder footer can do in the event of a ladder
slipping?

Not a lot maybe but on the other hand I *never* use a ladder at home
unless there is someone else in the house who is aware of what I'm
doing. Falling off a ladder and breaking a leg is not something I
ever want to do but, if it happens, I want someone to be around to
call the ambulance.

Someone else around is vital and that 'footer' may be the way to ensure
it.

--
Chris Green

Andy Hall wrote in
:


I completely agree. I know a couple of firemen

Can't call them firemen any more.

They're firelighters

mike

Someone else around is vital and that 'footer' may be the way to ensure
it.

Agreed. However, I would insist on that person being a footer. I want
someone holding onto the ladder if I'm climbing more than 6 feet off the
ground.

Christian.

"Sugar Free" wrote in message
...
Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

How much worse might happen in the hands of a less than competent
person?

Mixed installations? Oh yes - they're allowing that too.

Now, is that blue live, or not? Should it be?

And what about the black? Is that an "old" black, or a new one? Live
then, huh?

Yes, *I* know that a new multi-core SWA has a grey core in it and an
"old" one has a red core.......

Whaddya think?

Well the rest of Europe seems either to have got it right first time or
changed and survived. Its clear its the british standards establishment
that go it wrong. Seems to me that having harmonised flexible cable
colours, wasn't that so that the colour blind, quite a common affliction
could distinguish, its inevitable and right that fixed wiring should
follow. Easy solution, make sure we only employ eastern european sparkies.
Oh well happenning anyway.

Jim A

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:25:23 -0000, "Jeff" wrote:


Sugar Free wrote :-
in message

snip
Whaddya think?

.....the world is run by idiots

I thought that fell into the category of what we "knew".

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

Yep - figures.

I can cook whatever I like at home. For whoever I like.

Can't do that at work. Even though they have (better) facilities for
so doing.

at home I cannot do my own electrical work, at work I do occasional
installations and daily 110, 240 and 3 phase work and fault finding

Ah - you can, so long as it meets the "ideas" proposed in Part P.

You might have noted that the very *worst* that can happen is the
Building Inspector can require you to pay to have the work re-done
"safely".

Presumably, he is also going to pay for the cost of ripping open walls
to ascertain that you used the correct cable all the way through, and
didn't bury cable in the wall unprotected, or bury junction boxes in
the wall somewhere?

That is Part P"athetic" at work for your Tax Pounds.

imho the biggest mistake was changing fire extinguisher colours from easily
identifiable colours to all red and the idiots are daft enough to do the
same with wiring

Yep - f*kkin stupid.

Red - wait, red with a white label......wassit say - hang on, I'll get
me glasses......out of the fire........

An' they ain't stopping with wiring.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:12:30 +0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote:

at home I can use ladders without restriction, at work I have to be 'ladder
trained', fill in a ladder log and have someone foot the ladder.

Me too :-(
Can any one tell me what a ladder footer can do in the event of a ladder
slipping?

(a) Catch you?
(b) Provide a soft(er) landing?
(c) Laugh like buggery as you break your neck?
(d) None of the above?
(e) Make damn certain he "nevver saw nuffin guv"?

Perhaps we should have all cores coloured red, with sleeving to define
what runs through it. :-)

Red insulator with a blue sleeve denotes neutral

Or switched earth.......

Red insulator with a brown sleeve denotes live

Brown, to date, is generally switched.

Red insulator with no sleeve denotes a switched live

Red, on the other hand is typically not.

Red insulator with no sleeve denotes a bell wire that runs at low voltage.
etc. ;-)

Or a neutral or earth when you run out of other cores. Hang on, you
can do that now!!!!

Going back to the fire extinguisher problem. I once asked a Lancashire
Fire Brigade officer why the sound of a fire alarm had never been
standardized. He looked very sheepish and claimed that it was not needed.
Well before, I asked this question I had been in MFI when their alarm
went off and I thought that it was just a door open alarm. Just goes to
show how quick you could get fried.

The primary reason given is that BS5839 calls for a sound unique to
the protected area. The onus is on the system holder to ensure fire
safety training identifies the sound of the fire alarm to people
needing to know it.

For this reason, and with the introduction of EN54, more and more
corproates are moving to a combined fire alarm/PA whereupon fire alarm
activations are voice announced, giving specific instruction as to how
fast to run, in what direction, and when to jump from the fifteenth
floor, since the lifts grounded ten minutes previously, AND, some
******* locked the fire exit door because staff were having a crafty
fag in the fire stairs, which started the fire.....

By the way - fire alarms are often used to evacuate buildings in the
event of a bomb alert also. I am reminded of one of the first PA
annunciators we installed in Canary Wharf some years ago -

Given the statistically likely occurrence of a bomb alert, the people
building the PA decided it would be good to stick in a general
evacuate message, manually triggered by a button labelled "BOMB ALERT"
-

The message joyfully announced to all twelve floors "Please leave the
building by the nearest available exit - there is a bomb in the
building - please leave quickly - the bomb may explode at any time!"

Needless to say, it was heard once during commissioning, and changed
rapdily.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:43:43 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

This is all written by people who probably haven't even been potty
trained.

Just like Part P......

When was the Secretary of State ever an electrician?

Or the Deputy Prime Minister?

Or his "Office", come to that?

Can they even wire a plug top themselves?

"Sugar Free" wrote
| ... some ******* locked the fire exit door because staff
| were having a crafty fag in the fire stairs, which
| started the fire.....

I walked past a petrol station this afternoon where a member of staff (in
uniform) was having a crafty fag behind the barbecue briquettes display.

Owain

Owain wrote:

"Sugar Free" wrote
| ... some ******* locked the fire exit door because staff
| were having a crafty fag in the fire stairs, which
| started the fire.....

I walked past a petrol station this afternoon where a member of staff (in
uniform) was having a crafty fag behind the barbecue briquettes display.

Owain


That's outrageous! One false move and there could be glowing coals and
badly cooked food everywhere! Don't people know how dangerous barbecues
are?

I'll get me coat.

--
Cut along the dotted line to reply

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:29:49 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

What do they propose post April 2006 ?

For twin and earth cables:

Blue - Neutral
Brown - Live
Bare - Earth (to be sheathed green/yellow)

For 3 and Earth:

Brown - Live
Black - Live
Grey - Live
Bare - Earth

For SWA As Above, plus:

4 Core SWA:

Brown - Live Phase 1
Blue - Neutral
Black - Live Phase 2
Grey - Live Phase 3

Green and Yellow flexes have been known to be used as switched live in
many CH installs - it commonly happens where lazy plumbers cannot be
bothered to use 4 or 5 core flex.

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:50:39 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:

Well the rest of Europe seems either to have got it right first time or
changed and survived.

Have you ever worked on a European installation?

Didn't think so. Most of Europe is a disaster waiting to happen.

Maybe it already has......

The whole point of most harmonisation is that the furriners want OUR
standards. Only so long as they can make it look like we need theirs,
though.

Its clear its the british standards establishment
that go it wrong.

Only in places.

They should never have changed the colours of flexible cable to start
with!

Seems to me that having harmonised flexible cable
colours, wasn't that so that the colour blind, quite a common affliction
could distinguish, its inevitable and right that fixed wiring should
follow.

Then it should have harmonised at the same time, no?

Besides, most recognised electrical installers have in place
safeguards to ensure colour blind people do not get put in the
position of electrocuting themselves.

Easy solution, make sure we only employ eastern european sparkies.

No thanks.

Oh well happenning anyway.

And changing again, rapidly.

"Sugar Free" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:50:39 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:

Well the rest of Europe seems either to have got it right first time or
changed and survived.

The whole point of most harmonisation is that the furriners want OUR
standards. Only so long as they can make it look like we need theirs,
though.

I sincerely hope you don't think that. A friend at the EU likes recounting
the time in a mid-90s meeting on trying to harmonise Europe to use a common
IEC mains plug/socket when one of the representatives of our glorious IEE
actually proposed that everybody changed to the UK system. Everybody went
deathly silent, presumably hoping this idiot would say he was only joking.
But he didn't.

Eventually a Swede pointed out that the UK system was actually a Swedish
design that was rejected by them as too dangerous.

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:55:13 -0000, "Owain"
wrote:

"Sugar Free" wrote
| ... some ******* locked the fire exit door because staff
| were having a crafty fag in the fire stairs, which
| started the fire.....

I walked past a petrol station this afternoon where a member of staff (in
uniform) was having a crafty fag behind the barbecue briquettes display.

Many years ago I worked for the GPO. We had a covered-in telephone
engineering centre which had a petrol pump indoors. The attendant used
to throw his used fag-end on to the ground and douse it with petrol
from the pump.

--
Frank Erskine

"Sugar Free" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:50:39 -0000, "Jim Alexander"
wrote:

Well the rest of Europe seems either to have got it right first time or
changed and survived.

Have you ever worked on a European installation?

Is this a gap or have you just paused for breath?

Didn't think so. Most of Europe is a disaster waiting to happen.

Maybe it already has......

The whole point of most harmonisation is that the furriners want OUR
standards. Only so long as they can make it look like we need theirs,
though.

Its clear its the british standards establishment
that go it wrong.

Only in places.

They should never have changed the colours of flexible cable to start
with!

Seems to me that having harmonised flexible cable
colours, wasn't that so that the colour blind, quite a common affliction
could distinguish, its inevitable and right that fixed wiring should
follow.

Then it should have harmonised at the same time, no?

Besides, most recognised electrical installers have in place
safeguards to ensure colour blind people do not get put in the
position of electrocuting themselves.

I've ignored the rest because I don't necessarily disagree with your
arguments its just that I favour harmonisation but I confess I meant to use
the term colour blindness, not colour blind (or colour blind people as you
have echoed). You are surely not saying that its quite right that people
can no longer DIY in their own home because they might not be able to tell
the colours apart?

Easy solution, make sure we only employ eastern european sparkies.

No thanks.

Oh well happenning anyway.

And changing again, rapidly.

Jim A

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:30:42 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Sugar Free writes:
Having just browsed Part P (again), I am always "amused" to note the
section at the end detailing the harmonisation of colour coding
(Appendix D).

How many costly errors are going to be made before someone realises
the special stupidity of changing a secondary live phase colour (or
switched live) to the dominant neutral colour, and vice versa?

The trade press has been full of such concerns from electricians.
Some companies have banned the use of the new colours in any of
their premises where they would be mixed with the old colours in
the same installation, on health and safety grounds.

What do they propose post April 2006 ?


It now means that any colour except Green&Yellow could be live.
And the latter two if it's found in CH controls.

Uh ????????????????

"Sugar Free" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:43:43 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

This is all written by people who probably haven't even been potty
trained.

Just like Part P......

When was the Secretary of State ever an electrician?

Or the Deputy Prime Minister?

Or his "Office", come to that?

Can they even wire a plug top themselves?

Civil service rules specifically prohibit it. Any electrical problem
involves a call via three departments to the in-house sparky who arrives a
month later.