I've tried telling Screwfix about this, but they don't seem interested. In
fact the general 'shoddy goods' level from Screwfix seems particularly high
at the moment - not sure if it's just me?!

Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A jobs (13013
and 12802) and how these meet any relevant BS is beyond me. I've also tried
replacements, on the off chance it was a dodgy batch, but same problem -
clearly a fundamental design fault. I know you get what you pay for, but
these are plain dangerous - don't buy them!

Basically the grub screws cannot be properly tightened since the surrounding
brass socket gives way under any reasonable pressure. As can be seen by the
picture below, this causes the screws to jump out their threads, creating a
hot joint. Sometimes the thread will give way AFTER installation - so even
if it seems fine initially, it can fail later down the line:-

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctsfx.jpg

Comparing the Screwfix version to the Wickes version (both 30A) there's a
considerable difference between the two (Wickes on the right).

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctcomp.jpg


Andy

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:13:48 -0000, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

I've tried telling Screwfix about this, but they don't seem interested. In
fact the general 'shoddy goods' level from Screwfix seems particularly high
at the moment - not sure if it's just me?!

Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A jobs (13013
and 12802) and how these meet any relevant BS is beyond me. I've also tried
replacements, on the off chance it was a dodgy batch, but same problem -
clearly a fundamental design fault. I know you get what you pay for, but
these are plain dangerous - don't buy them!

Basically the grub screws cannot be properly tightened since the surrounding
brass socket gives way under any reasonable pressure. As can be seen by the
picture below, this causes the screws to jump out their threads, creating a
hot joint. Sometimes the thread will give way AFTER installation - so even
if it seems fine initially, it can fail later down the line:-

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctsfx.jpg

Comparing the Screwfix version to the Wickes version (both 30A) there's a
considerable difference between the two (Wickes on the right).

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctcomp.jpg


Andy


You might consider telling your local Trading Standards office. They
might fire off a letter to Screwfix, and that would have to be given
attention.

Two other alternatives would be not to buy this grade of product and
get decent MK ones, or perhaps better still to use crimps.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Two other alternatives would be not to buy this grade of product and
get decent MK ones, or perhaps better still to use crimps.

Are crimps really better than junction boxes? What sort of crimps? Am I
missing a trick?

Andy

"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...
[snip]

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctsfx.jpg

Comparing the Screwfix version to the Wickes version (both 30A) there's a
considerable difference between the two (Wickes on the right).

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctcomp.jpg

The one in the first photo looks distinctly nasty, but unfortunately, the
second photo is too small to make out the differences in quality.

Rick

"Pecanfan" wrote in news:1108401451.646741@smtp-
1.griffin.com:


Are crimps really better than junction boxes? What sort of crimps? Am I
missing a trick?

Andy

Can I second that?

mike

Pecanfan wrote:
I've tried telling Screwfix about this, but they don't seem interested. In
fact the general 'shoddy goods' level from Screwfix seems particularly high
at the moment - not sure if it's just me?!

Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A jobs (13013
and 12802) and how these meet any relevant BS is beyond me. I've also tried
replacements, on the off chance it was a dodgy batch, but same problem -
clearly a fundamental design fault. I know you get what you pay for, but
these are plain dangerous - don't buy them!

Basically the grub screws cannot be properly tightened since the surrounding
brass socket gives way under any reasonable pressure. As can be seen by the
picture below, this causes the screws to jump out their threads, creating a
hot joint. Sometimes the thread will give way AFTER installation - so even
if it seems fine initially, it can fail later down the line:-

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctsfx.jpg

Comparing the Screwfix version to the Wickes version (both 30A) there's a
considerable difference between the two (Wickes on the right).

http://www.pciq.co.uk/pics/junctcomp.jpg


Andy


Are these their cheapo 'Select' branded ones? I used a load of the 20A
ones when rewiring a lighting circuit not long ago - can't say I had any
problems. I certainly didn't feel I couldn't tighten the screws as much
as wanted to.

David

"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...
I've tried telling Screwfix about this, but they don't seem interested.
In
fact the general 'shoddy goods' level from Screwfix seems particularly
high
at the moment - not sure if it's just me?!

Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A jobs
(13013
and 12802) and how these meet any relevant BS is beyond me. I've also
tried
replacements, on the off chance it was a dodgy batch, but same problem -
clearly a fundamental design fault. I know you get what you pay for, but
these are plain dangerous - don't buy them!

Basically the grub screws cannot be properly tightened since the
surrounding
brass socket gives way under any reasonable pressure. As can be seen by
the
picture below, this causes the screws to jump out their threads, creating
a
hot joint. Sometimes the thread will give way AFTER installation - so
even
if it seems fine initially, it can fail later down the line:-


Totally agree. I complained to Screfix some time after I had them and this
came to light but they didn't want to know. Threw about 5 away.

Also don't touch "I can't believe it's not nails" at the moment - the mastic
cans leak all the gloop out of the back onto the gun.

They really have gone downhill recently.

mike ring wrote:

"Pecanfan" wrote in news:1108401451.646741@smtp-
1.griffin.com:


Are crimps really better than junction boxes? What sort of crimps? Am I
missing a trick?

Andy


Can I second that?

mike


My kitchen fitter suggested that I use crimps in place of a socket that
will be hidden by the new units, rather than any sort of junction box.
With a fair amount of scepticism I visited what I hope were a serious
electrical suppliers and asked 'vaguely' about crimps for joining
cables. Quick as a flash they produced red plastic inline cable crimps
of a sort that I am more accustomed to using on my car. They explained
that with the proper crimping tool, i.e. a ratchet-type rather than the
feeble plier-type, you can achieve a satisfactory joint that does not
need to be accessible in the way that screw connections do. Of course
you wrap it in tape to increase the rigidity of the joint.

Richard


--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...
Two other alternatives would be not to buy this grade of product and
get decent MK ones, or perhaps better still to use crimps.

Are crimps really better than junction boxes?

Yes; for in-line jointing of conductors

What sort of crimps?

They come in three(?) colours identifying the gauge of conductor
that can be joined .... basically the conducotrs are bared - inserted
into the crimp until the insulation buts into the crimp and then
you use an apropriate ratchet type crimper to compress the
crimp onto the conductor. A rachet-(calibrated) crimper is essential.
The crimps should be protected with heatshrink sleeves.

Am I missing a trick?

If you're not using crimps ... yes ... its much easier than
fiddling with the brass itsy-bitsy screw clamps -often
fighting against gravity.

Screwfix shows them on their web-pages.

--

Brian

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:09:22 +0000, Richard strung
together this:

Of course
you wrap it in tape to increase the rigidity of the joint.

Er, think you should have some sort of exlamation mark or other
feature after that to show it is actually a humurous comment. It is a
humurous comment, isn't it?
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:28:20 -0000, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

Two other alternatives would be not to buy this grade of product and
get decent MK ones, or perhaps better still to use crimps.

Are crimps really better than junction boxes? What sort of crimps? Am I
missing a trick?

Andy



Well...... if you have a situation where you need to make joints in a
place that won't be accessible again, then crimps are an approved
joint and anything with screw terminals is not.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

Well...... if you have a situation where you need to make joints in a
place that won't be accessible again, then crimps are an approved
joint and anything with screw terminals is not.


I agree with the concept, but IME crimping solid wire with Screwfix
red/blue/yellow receptacles and a ratchet tool produces a crap joint.
IMO to get a decent crimp with solid wire, you need a hex or AMP type
crimp and much thicker walled receptacles. The cheap terminals are just
about OK with stranded wire, but again do not achieve the wire grip
performance achievable with an industrial crimping system.

Regards
Capitol

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:24:47 +0000, Capitol
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:

Well...... if you have a situation where you need to make joints in a
place that won't be accessible again, then crimps are an approved
joint and anything with screw terminals is not.


I agree with the concept, but IME crimping solid wire with Screwfix
red/blue/yellow receptacles and a ratchet tool produces a crap joint.
IMO to get a decent crimp with solid wire, you need a hex or AMP type
crimp and much thicker walled receptacles. The cheap terminals are just
about OK with stranded wire, but again do not achieve the wire grip
performance achievable with an industrial crimping system.

Regards
Capitol



I didn't say anything about using Screwfix or any other cheap crimps.

Electrical wiring accessories are the *last* place to consider
anything less than top quality materials. It is a false economy to
use cheap electrical stuff for both reliability and safety reasons.

Obviously one should use best quality branded crimps to the right
specification and a properly specified ratchet tool to attach them.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:24:47 +0000, Capitol
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:


Well...... if you have a situation where you need to make joints in a
place that won't be accessible again, then crimps are an approved
joint and anything with screw terminals is not.


I agree with the concept, but IME crimping solid wire with Screwfix
red/blue/yellow receptacles and a ratchet tool produces a crap joint.
IMO to get a decent crimp with solid wire, you need a hex or AMP type
crimp and much thicker walled receptacles. The cheap terminals are just
about OK with stranded wire, but again do not achieve the wire grip
performance achievable with an industrial crimping system.

Regards
Capitol




I didn't say anything about using Screwfix or any other cheap crimps.

Electrical wiring accessories are the *last* place to consider
anything less than top quality materials. It is a false economy to
use cheap electrical stuff for both reliability and safety reasons.

Obviously one should use best quality branded crimps to the right
specification and a properly specified ratchet tool to attach them.


....but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:55:30 +0000, Andrew Chesters
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:




I didn't say anything about using Screwfix or any other cheap crimps.

Electrical wiring accessories are the *last* place to consider
anything less than top quality materials. It is a false economy to
use cheap electrical stuff for both reliability and safety reasons.

Obviously one should use best quality branded crimps to the right
specification and a properly specified ratchet tool to attach them.


...but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

I rest my case.....






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Richard wrote:
mike ring wrote:

"Pecanfan" wrote in news:1108401451.646741@smtp-
1.griffin.com:


Are crimps really better than junction boxes? What sort of crimps? Am I
missing a trick?

Andy


Can I second that?

mike


My kitchen fitter suggested that I use crimps in place of a socket that
will be hidden by the new units, rather than any sort of junction box.
With a fair amount of scepticism I visited what I hope were a serious
electrical suppliers and asked 'vaguely' about crimps for joining
cables. Quick as a flash they produced red plastic inline cable crimps
of a sort that I am more accustomed to using on my car. They explained
that with the proper crimping tool, i.e. a ratchet-type rather than the
feeble plier-type, you can achieve a satisfactory joint that does not
need to be accessible in the way that screw connections do. Of course
you wrap it in tape to increase the rigidity of the joint.

How do you join three (or more) wires together using crimps?

--
Chris Green

...but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

I rest my case.....

The Wickes ones are about the same price and are far superior quality wise.
I know you can get even better ones if you pay more, but cost isn't really
the point here. The Screwfix ones are BS marked, which leads you to the
conclusion that they might be cheap but *shouldn't* be dangerous. These are
dangerous.

Andy

Totally agree. I complained to Screfix some time after I had them and
this
came to light but they didn't want to know. Threw about 5 away.

Also don't touch "I can't believe it's not nails" at the moment - the
mastic
cans leak all the gloop out of the back onto the gun.

They really have gone downhill recently.

Of the last 5 orders I've placed, every one has resulted in a return or
replacement of some description. They just don't care any more. Apparently
everything gets packed by machine now too, which explains why my last order
had no less than 7 damaged items. It's OK (if annoying) for the likes of
me, mainly using them for DIY stuff, I don't see how anyone in the trade
could possibly rely on them now though. Shame...

Andy

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:55:30 +0000, Andrew Chesters
wrote:

...but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

But they're still supposed to work ! We have government interference
and mandatory standards for such things so that _anything_ with the
right marks on it _can_ safely be assumed to be fit for purpose.

Instead we seem to have pointless interferences like Part P, and
sometimes the odd dodgy fitting does slip through.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:29:33 -0000, "Pecanfan"
wrote:

...but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

I rest my case.....

The Wickes ones are about the same price and are far superior quality wise.
I know you can get even better ones if you pay more, but cost isn't really
the point here. The Screwfix ones are BS marked, which leads you to the
conclusion that they might be cheap but *shouldn't* be dangerous. These are
dangerous.

Andy


You would think so, wouldn't you?

I am always sceptical about standards because I see too many of them.
You have to look carefully at what is and isn't included. I haven't
looked at the relevant one here, but it could easily specify terminal
sizes and the flame retardant properties of the plastic - who knows.

I *never* consider that something having a "standard" mark, and
especially a CE label as being any measure of quality at all.
It is yet another example where cheap manufacturers will do the
minimum necessary and where they will use the label of a "standard" to
imply the product is better than it actually is.

The conclusion, as I've said many times, is to buy decent branded
wiring accessories from the major manufacturers and not this cheap
junk from DIY places. WIth electrical stuff, a penny pinching
decision may well cost lives.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Pecanfan
writes
...but then the OP was using the cheapest junction boxes this side of a
very cheap place...

I rest my case.....

The Wickes ones are about the same price and are far superior quality wise.
I know you can get even better ones if you pay more, but cost isn't really
the point here. The Screwfix ones are BS marked, which leads you to the
conclusion that they might be cheap but *shouldn't* be dangerous. These are
dangerous.


Brother in Law, who is an ex BS test technician, has many stories of
equipment sent for testing which subsequently failed, the manufacturer
would be contacted, sent some more and the process was repeated until it
passed

Just a thought
--
David

On 15 Feb 2005 09:25:39 GMT, strung together this:

How do you join three (or more) wires together using crimps?

You don't.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
The conclusion, as I've said many times, is to buy decent branded
wiring accessories from the major manufacturers and not this cheap
junk from DIY places. WIth electrical stuff, a penny pinching
decision may well cost lives.


Yes - but you may have to penny pinch on the accessories to be able to
afford the Part P inspection ....

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 29/11/2004

Lurch wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:09:22 +0000, Richard strung
together this:

Er, think you should have some sort of exlamation mark or other
feature after that to show it is actually a humurous comment. It is a
humurous comment, isn't it?

Which bit? The crimps is genuinely what the sparks at A1 electrical told
me. The tape wrapping was all my own idea.

Richard

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

And talking of dangerous products - bought a selection of Wickes dual
switched mains sockets. All same shelf, all same part number, all look
similar. Only on closer inspection they aren't. Most are wired L - N - E
but one has a slightly different moulding and is wired N - L - E !!!!!

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:24:16 +0000, Richard strung
together this:

Er, think you should have some sort of exlamation mark or other
feature after that to show it is actually a humurous comment. It is a
humurous comment, isn't it?

Which bit?

The tape wrapping, absolutely no mechanical strength wehatsoever.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Mike wrote:
"Pecanfan" wrote in message
...
I've tried telling Screwfix about this, but they don't seem
interested.
In
fact the general 'shoddy goods' level from Screwfix seems
particularly
high
at the moment - not sure if it's just me?!

Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A
jobs
(13013
and 12802) and how these meet any relevant BS is beyond me. I've
also
tried
replacements, on the off chance it was a dodgy batch, but same
problem -
clearly a fundamental design fault. I know you get what you pay
for, but
these are plain dangerous - don't buy them!

Basically the grub screws cannot be properly tightened since the
surrounding
brass socket gives way under any reasonable pressure. As can be
seen by
the
picture below, this causes the screws to jump out their threads,
creating
a
hot joint. Sometimes the thread will give way AFTER installation -
so
even
if it seems fine initially, it can fail later down the line:-


Totally agree. I complained to Screfix some time after I had them
and this
came to light but they didn't want to know. Threw about 5 away.

Also don't touch "I can't believe it's not nails" at the moment - the
mastic
cans leak all the gloop out of the back onto the gun.

They really have gone downhill recently.

Unbelievable... Only last weekend did I suffer both problems; namely
the failing screws on the junction boxes and the reward-projecting glue
gun.

In both cases I put it down to my gym attendance finally paying off but
now I'm not so sure...!

Mathew

Lurch wrote:
The tape wrapping, absolutely no mechanical strength wehatsoever.

Fair enough. Perhaps what I meant was that taping would (might?) make
the crimped area behave more like the rest of the cable, i.e. increase
the support (that's a better description perhaps) for the conductors to
something approaching that of the sheathed conductors. The idea being
that the crimped area was not more flexible than the rest of the cable -
not that any of it should be subject to flexing ;-)

Richard
--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

"Mathew J. Newton" wrote in message
ups.com...
Anyway - 'Standard Junction Boxes' - I've tried the 20A and 30A
jobs (13013 and 12802)

snip

Totally agree. I complained to Screfix some time after I had them
and this
came to light but they didn't want to know. Threw about 5 away.

Also don't touch "I can't believe it's not nails" at the moment - the
mastic
cans leak all the gloop out of the back onto the gun.

They really have gone downhill recently.

Unbelievable... Only last weekend did I suffer both problems; namely
the failing screws on the junction boxes and the reward-projecting glue
gun.

In both cases I put it down to my gym attendance finally paying off but
now I'm not so sure...!

They phoned me and claimed to have fixed the glue problem and would refund
unused tubes. Didn't offer to refund the used tubes or the messed up gun
though.

Anybodu know when Toolstation are going to stock everything Screwitup do so
that I can stop using them once and for all ?

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:12:39 +0000, Richard strung
together this:

The tape wrapping, absolutely no mechanical strength wehatsoever.

Fair enough. Perhaps what I meant was that taping would (might?) make
the crimped area behave more like the rest of the cable, i.e. increase
the support (that's a better description perhaps) for the conductors to
something approaching that of the sheathed conductors. The idea being
that the crimped area was not more flexible than the rest of the cable -
not that any of it should be subject to flexing ;-)

Well, sort of. The crimps should be mechanically strong enough not to
need any additional support, if they do then you've not done it right.
Tape isn't required, and will not add anything to the connection other
than tape!
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:

Well, sort of. The crimps should be mechanically strong enough not to
need any additional support, if they do then you've not done it right.
Tape isn't required, and will not add anything to the connection other
than tape!

True. I was thinking that a length of sheathed cable is fairly stiff.
If you remove the sheathing you reduce it's stiffness at that point.
So, three unsheathed insulated conductors are more flexible than 3 in an
overall sheath. Any opportunity for flexing will, probably occur at the
unsheathed section, or have most effect at the unsheathed section. Is
that not possible? Taping up the unsheathed section might restore some
of the stiffness?

Rgds Richard



--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:26:47 +0000, Richard strung
together this:

Any opportunity for flexing will, probably occur at the
unsheathed section, or have most effect at the unsheathed section. Is
that not possible? Taping up the unsheathed section might restore some
of the stiffness?

Well, yes, but you're not meant to use crimps, or any connections, if
the joint is to be subjected to movement. It should be replaced with a
continuous piece of cable.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:26:47 +0000, Richard strung
together this:


Well, yes, but you're not meant to use crimps, or any connections, if
the joint is to be subjected to movement. It should be replaced with a
continuous piece of cable.

Point taken.

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info