I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing boiler
today. Switched boiler on to warm up a cold house. Arrive home a couple
of hours later to find radiators only luke warm and a wonderful gurgling
noise coming from the boiler. Actually, it was really quite loud if you
went outside to the flue terminal. Someone reported similar symptoms
here some months back and I speculated the combustion chamber was half
full of water.

I was a little surprised the condensate trap could have blocked up in
the six months since I cleaned it out, but anyway off with the front to
look at the U-trap (you can see half of it as it's made of transparent
tubing). Well, it looks remarkably clean, but maybe the muck is in the
half you can't see as it's black plastic. Take the trap out and clean
it through in the sink. One thing I didn't consider when installing the
boiler was how easy it would be to empty the condensate U-trap, with
the result that pretty much the only way to empty it results in
chucking the water down the wall and over the floor -- there's nowhere
to hold a bucket to catch it before it's been deflected in all directions
by the pipework under the boiler. Oh well, something to bear in mind if
I install another one. Still, remarkably little muck came out, but at
least testing it under the tap shows water runs through it. Reassemble
U-trap, prime it by pouring a pint of water in the flue terminal (my
neighbours must think I'm bonkers;-), and fire up the boiler.

Next snag, it won't light -- oh bugger. It's going through the sequence,
but claiming the gas won't ignite. I'm wondering if the condensate
water got into somewhere it shouldn't have when draining it, e.g. maybe
no spark. Extract the spark electrode (as the EHT cable absolutely
refuses to unplug from it -- I suspect the heat has soldered the
connector on over time). Anyway, a nice healthy spark, so that's not
it. Check voltage on gas valve -- that's OK, although I can't see if
it actually operates. However, I can smell gas at the flue terminal
after it fails to light, so at least some gas must be getting through.
The fan is clearly running. There's no air flow pressure switch in the
Keston. Puzzled. Time for a cup of tea...

Have another try after the tea -- no joy, but I wander round outside
whilst it's trying to light -- gurgling noise loud and clear from the
flue. Where's the water come from -- the boiler hasn't actually lit
since I cleaned out the U-trap? The sealed system pressure hasn't
gone down at all since I last filled it 2.5 years ago. Oh well,
out the condensate trap comes again, more water all down the wall and
over the floor, although actually rather little. I'm now beginning to
get suspicious that the combustion chamber is half full of water which
won't drain out. Back outside, up the ladder, another pint of water
in the flue (neighbours now sure I've lost the plot), but nothing comes
out of the condensate drain (and it's not a problem in the trap as I
haven't refitted it yet).

Next, remove the burner assembly from the heat exchanger chamber so I
can look inside. What I can see is remarkably clean, but you can't see
much due to the heat exchanger construction, and certainly not down to
the bottom of the heat exchanger chamber. Pour a jug of water into the
chamber, but nothing comes out. Try another jug incase the pressure of
more water will dislodge whatever is stopping it draining, but this just
fills the chamber up above the top of the heat exchanger. I'm trying to
think how to access the bottom of the chamber. I could disconnect the
flexible flue pipe from the heat exchanger, but that connection has to
be very waterproof or condensate running back down the flue will leak
into boiler casing and corrode it (as happened to someone else in this
newsgroup), so I'm not keen. Instead, I disconnect the top of the pipe
(where the direction it is socketed into the flue spiggot is not so
critical for being watertight). Poke a stick down and give it a good
wiggle around, but it doesn't clear whatever is blocking the condensate
drain. The only other access is through the condensate drain. Find a
short length of mains flex to poke up there and wiggle around. Success,
and the two pints of water I had poured in plus the condensate which
was stuck in the come out, gushing all over the wall and floor of course.
Actually, I caught a good deal of it in a bucket this time, in order to
find what was blocking the drain. Nothing very conclusive -- water is
quite clean, although there is the remains of something which looks like
a small jellyfish in there. Pour several more jugfulls of water through
the heat exchanger to flush out anything else.

Reassemble the boiler, back round outside to prime the U-trap with yet
another jug of water down the flue (neighbours probably got the camcorder
on a tripod by now in preparation for a "You've been Framed" contribution).
Start the boiler -- SUCCESS!

Maybe this storey will be useful to some of you with Kestons.
I could also suggest to Keston that although they have a detector for
condensate pipe blocked after the boiler, they have no detection for
condensate U-trap blocked or the heat exchanger chamber filling with
condensate for some reason (as in this case). This might be worth
detecting, and would be easy to do using the existing detector which
just relies on water contacting an exposed terminal. OTOH, it would
seem that the boiler actually won't light in this state, although if
already lit, it manages to carry on going for a while at least.

Back to a nice warm house at least...
--
Andrew Gabriel

On 23 Dec 2004 00:03:51 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:


Actually, I caught a good deal of it in a bucket this time, in order to
find what was blocking the drain. Nothing very conclusive -- water is
quite clean, although there is the remains of something which looks like
a small jellyfish in there. Pour several more jugfulls of water through
the heat exchanger to flush out anything else.


But what of the jellyfish? How did that get in there? Are you
going to get it analysed?

Could it be a small bird, or perhaps a slug crawled up the wall and
in?



Back to a nice warm house at least...


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing
| boiler today.
| ... prime it by pouring a pint of water in the flue terminal
| (my neighbours must think I'm bonkers;-), ...
| ... Back outside, up the ladder, another pint of water
| in the flue (neighbours now sure I've lost the plot), ...
| ... back round outside to prime the U-trap with yet another
| jug of water down the flue (neighbours probably got the camcorder
| on a tripod by now in preparation for a "You've been Framed"
| contribution). ...

Presumably not the ideal choice of boiler for someone in an upper floor flat
then :-(

Owain

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing boiler
today. Switched boiler on to warm up a cold house. Arrive home a couple
of hours later to find radiators only luke warm and a wonderful gurgling
noise coming from the boiler. Actually, it was really quite loud if you
went outside to the flue terminal. Someone reported similar symptoms
here some months back and I speculated the combustion chamber was half
full of water.

Glad you fixed it...

I have had to remove the flexible flue pipe on mine to fix a leak of
condensate at the bottom and it is not too bad to refit. You need to
refit the bottom first (with the top not fastened) and use some silicone
sealant round the bottom of it. When I had the leak problem, Keston
denied that there should be any sealant on it (and what was I doing
messing with it anyway, that was a job for the installer). However they
had put some on mine, it just hadn't been applied properly, hence the
leak.

Having fitted the bottom you can stretch the pipe back up to the top
terminal and fit that.

Wee beasties can crawl down the flue pipe and end up in the burner /
condensate outlet. The flue pipe on mine is straight through the wall,
probably only about 12" long, so I can imagine things getting into the
burner and dying.
--
Tim Mitchell

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:03:51 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

There's no air flow pressure switch in the
Keston. Puzzled. Time for a cup of tea...

The DC blower has a tacho on it which tells the controller that the fan's
spindle is moving (if not the fan wry smile).




Maybe this storey will be useful to some of you with Kestons.
I could also suggest to Keston that although they have a detector for
condensate pipe blocked after the boiler, they have no detection for
condensate U-trap blocked or the heat exchanger chamber filling with
condensate for some reason (as in this case). This might be worth
detecting, and would be easy to do using the existing detector which
just relies on water contacting an exposed terminal. OTOH, it would
seem that the boiler actually won't light in this state, although if
already lit, it manages to carry on going for a while at least.

I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on the
C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:14:54 +0000, Owain wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing
| boiler today.
| ... prime it by pouring a pint of water in the flue terminal
| (my neighbours must think I'm bonkers;-), ...
| ... Back outside, up the ladder, another pint of water
| in the flue (neighbours now sure I've lost the plot), ...
| ... back round outside to prime the U-trap with yet another
| jug of water down the flue (neighbours probably got the camcorder
| on a tripod by now in preparation for a "You've been Framed"
| contribution). ...

Presumably not the ideal choice of boiler for someone in an upper floor flat
then :-(

Anthing that's gets has to be less than 10mmx10mm in crosssection (the
inlet air duct terminal has a mesh over it), but also has to capable of
blocking a 20mm diameter outlet hole.

I've not had any problems so far on the ones I've installed (27 months, 18
months and 6 months).


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 23 Dec 2004 00:03:51 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:


Actually, I caught a good deal of it in a bucket this time, in order to
find what was blocking the drain. Nothing very conclusive -- water is
quite clean, although there is the remains of something which looks like
a small jellyfish in there. Pour several more jugfulls of water through
the heat exchanger to flush out anything else.


But what of the jellyfish? How did that get in there? Are you
going to get it analysed?

Could it be a small bird, or perhaps a slug crawled up the wall and
in?

Having thought some more, I have an idea. I've been experimenting
with how low I can set the boiler temperature, the ideal being to
set it as low as possible so the boiler doesn't cycle on and off
via the roomstat, but runs continuously. This should give the most
efficient condensing operation. Over the last few months, I've never
had the flow temperature set above 50C, and for much of that it was
only 45C. This isn't hot enough to kill off all bugs, fungii, etc.
As others have commented, organic material does get sucked in -- some
of it I find desicated in the bottom of the casing, but some will
go on though the burner. This will leave organic debris at the bottom
of the heat exchanger chamber. Now with the temperature at only 45C,
it may be that some molds or other things can live there growing on
this residue. A lump of something growing submersed bacteria/mold/algae
on it might explain the jellyfish like thing I found bits of.

Well, it's the only theory I can think of at the moment.

Having had the burner out, I got to wondering what it looks like
operating (there's no way to see it as there's no observation
window). It was something like 3x8" in size, probably similar area
to a radiant gas fire of perhaps 3kW. However, this element is 25kW,
so it's probably quite spectacular if you could actually see it
operating.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

Having thought some more, I have an idea. I've been experimenting
with how low I can set the boiler temperature, the ideal being to
set it as low as possible so the boiler doesn't cycle on and off
via the roomstat, but runs continuously. This should give the most
efficient condensing operation. Over the last few months, I've never
had the flow temperature set above 50C, and for much of that it was
only 45C. This isn't hot enough to kill off all bugs, fungii, etc.
As others have commented, organic material does get sucked in -- some
of it I find desicated in the bottom of the casing, but some will
go on though the burner. This will leave organic debris at the bottom
of the heat exchanger chamber. Now with the temperature at only 45C,
it may be that some molds or other things can live there growing on
this residue. A lump of something growing submersed bacteria/mold/algae
on it might explain the jellyfish like thing I found bits of.

Well, it's the only theory I can think of at the moment.

Having had the burner out, I got to wondering what it looks like
operating (there's no way to see it as there's no observation
window). It was something like 3x8" in size, probably similar area
to a radiant gas fire of perhaps 3kW. However, this element is 25kW,
so it's probably quite spectacular if you could actually see it
operating.

I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water
demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you,
it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not
long enough to kill off the slime.

I didn't bother priming the condensate drain, no tundish, plumbed into a
closed drain and testing showed it would half fill a bucket in a day so I
reckoned the trap would fill in an hour or so of running. Also the CO
content at the outlet was tiny as I'd just set it up ;-).
--
fred

Ed Sirett wrote:
I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on
the
C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.

I'm sure they've modded units built this year to include a level switch
on the condensate trap.

Out of interest, I've never 'primed' the condensate trap before. Is it
necessary, as within a 30 minutes its full. As you say, when the flue
is inaccessible, its not possible anyway.

Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know
the exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If
I get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they
send an engineer out.

I'd be interested to know what others use as the jointing compound
between the flue spigot to the flue pipe.

Martyn

In article ,
fred writes:

I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water
demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you,

Interesting. I've built a replacement for the front panel indicator
board, which allows me to remote monitor it and remote control the
temperature setting. I've had it in the boiler for initial testing
only, but at the moment it's sitting in a breadboarded moch-up on
the workbench whilst I write the controlling software.

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by
a separate multi-point water heater. Without the type of additional
temperature control we both seem to have developed, it didn't seem
particularly suited to a combined heating/hot water system whilst
also optimising the condensing mode of operation for heating.

it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not
long enough to kill off the slime.

The full whack at the beginning is just to get the water up to the
set temperature -- I don't think it will result in the slime at the
bottom of the heat exchanger getting any hotter than during normal
running.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article .com,
Martyn Pollard writes
Ed Sirett wrote:
I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on
the
C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.

I'm sure they've modded units built this year to include a level switch
on the condensate trap.

Out of interest, I've never 'primed' the condensate trap before. Is it
necessary, as within a 30 minutes its full. As you say, when the flue
is inaccessible, its not possible anyway.

Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know
the exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If
I get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they
send an engineer out.

I have a problem with mine where it seems to get into a "hunting" state
where it can't seem to decide on the right pump speed. It does this when
it starts up and full output is not required. This causes all the
heating pipes to twitch and bang. I have consulted Keston about it but
they say it is a problem with the system not the boiler.

What is the issue you refer to above?


I'd be interested to know what others use as the jointing compound
between the flue spigot to the flue pipe.

The guys who installed mine just used solvent cement.
--
Tim Mitchell

In article .com,
"Martyn Pollard" writes:
Ed Sirett wrote:
I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on
the
C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.

I'm sure they've modded units built this year to include a level switch
on the condensate trap.

Mine, which is 2.5 years old IIRC, has a detector in the
condensate trap. It is after the U-trap part, so it will only
detect condensate blockage external to the Keston. If the U-trap
blocks with debris, or if the heat exchanger drain blocks as mine
did, the condensate won't get as far as the detector in the trap,
and won't trigger that fault detector.

Out of interest, I've never 'primed' the condensate trap before. Is it
necessary, as within a 30 minutes its full. As you say, when the flue
is inaccessible, its not possible anyway.

Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know
the exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If
I get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they
send an engineer out.

Several people have reported vibrations like you would get from
a 32' organ pipe. I suspect this is either combustion oscillating
back up into the pre-burner area or maybe an undamped feedback
loop in the venturi gas valve. I had this on initial installation
as the preset mixture adjustment was preset incorrectly.

I'd be interested to know what others use as the jointing compound
between the flue spigot to the flue pipe.

I solvent welded it. However, my flue spigot turned out to be
faulty (Keston's weld between the stainless steel and the muPVC
collar wasn't water tight). I broke it apart (at which point you
could see why -- the glue they used hadn't gone all the way round),
and remade it myself. I roughed up the stainless steel and used
a ring of solvent weld around the lower 3/4 of the area, and
used a special acid-resistant high temperature silicone sealant
in the top 1/4 to preserve the water seal even if the solvent
weld didn't seal to the stainless steel.

When that had all set, I then solvent welded it to the muPVC
flue as before.

I also used a non-setting sealant on the exhaust spigot gasket.
(Initially I had thought that's where the leak was. However, it
turned out the leak was in the manufacture of the flue spigot.)

Having had a leak, after I had fixed and reassembled it, I left
the garden hose running slowly into the flue terminal for perhaps
half an hour to be double sure there were no more leaks in the
condensate path. Leaks of condensate will rapidly wreck the boiler
as someone else reported here a while back. If I ever fit another
Keston, I will do this check with the garden hose as a matter of
course as part of the commisioning procedure.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Tim Mitchell writes:
Glad you fixed it...

I have had to remove the flexible flue pipe on mine to fix a leak of
condensate at the bottom and it is not too bad to refit. You need to
refit the bottom first (with the top not fastened) and use some silicone
sealant round the bottom of it. When I had the leak problem, Keston
denied that there should be any sealant on it (and what was I doing
messing with it anyway, that was a job for the installer). However they
had put some on mine, it just hadn't been applied properly, hence the
leak.

The top joint of mine had some sealant on it when I disassembled it.
I didn't disassemble the bottom joint. Mine has the black flexible flue;
I believe some earlier C25's had a blue(?) flexible flue pipe which
Keston seemed to be replacing with a black one. Mine was black from
the beginning.

Having fitted the bottom you can stretch the pipe back up to the top
terminal and fit that.

Wee beasties can crawl down the flue pipe and end up in the burner /
condensate outlet. The flue pipe on mine is straight through the wall,
probably only about 12" long, so I can imagine things getting into the
burner and dying.

Same with mine, although I suspect being sucked in the air intake is
another possibility.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by
a separate multi-point water heater.

Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
Several people have reported vibrations like you would get from
a 32' organ pipe. I suspect this is either combustion oscillating
back up into the pre-burner area or maybe an undamped feedback
loop in the venturi gas valve. I had this on initial installation
as the preset mixture adjustment was preset incorrectly.

I think its a combination of a very powerful fan and the small diameter
of the air intake. Your analogy of the pipe organ might not be too far
out. The powerful fan is needed to overcome the maximum resistance from
the 50mm system. The 'fix' chokes off the air intake pipe to the fan.

I also used a non-setting sealant on the exhaust spigot gasket.
(Initially I had thought that's where the leak was. However, it
turned out the leak was in the manufacture of the flue spigot.)

They now ship a new and improved spigot which extends a little way
inside the gasket. Presumably to prevent the condensate seeping through
gasket.

The reason I asked about the jointing compound was to see if anyone
else used a non-permanent seal, to aid future maintenance. I've used
LSX which is also smeared on the gasket. Its a pity there isn't a more
robust method of connecting the flue to the unit. IMO this is the weak
link in the chain. A male flue pipe should go into a female port on the
unit, which is how almost all other boilers are designed.

martyn

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:04:16 +0000, fred wrote:



I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water
demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you,
it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not
long enough to kill off the slime.

I'm interested in the circuit - I would like mine to do flat out for HW
and then I could experiment with low temps for the rads.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:57:57 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:



The top joint of mine had some sealant on it when I disassembled it.
I didn't disassemble the bottom joint. Mine has the black flexible flue;
I believe some earlier C25's had a blue(?) flexible flue pipe which
Keston seemed to be replacing with a black one. Mine was black from
the beginning.

Perhaps one of the directors died? [Recalls story of Rolls and Royce who
change the radiator hose colour on the death on one of the pair.]


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:24:18 -0800, Martyn Pollard wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on
the
C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.

I'm sure they've modded units built this year to include a level switch
on the condensate trap.

I must download the latest manual.


Out of interest, I've never 'primed' the condensate trap before. Is it
necessary, as within a 30 minutes its full. As you say, when the flue
is inaccessible, its not possible anyway.

Well by the book the boiler is not room sealed until you do.
but I'll confess that I don't either but I do check the trap is full
before I leave.


Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know the
exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If I
get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they
send an engineer out.

Ah 'buzz bombing' as I call it.
AFAIK after consultation with their technical dept it is due to the burner
being slightly weak. You really need a combustion analyser to make sure
that the CO2 values are in spec at both the minimum and maximum rates.




I'd be interested to know what others use as the jointing compound
between the flue spigot to the flue pipe.

This is not intended to be a demountable joint [1]. So I use bog standard
Black Swan brand 'solvent weld'.

[1] I'm nigh on certain that all of the flue joints (and air duct also)
are required to be permanent. Should the flue need to be taken from the
boiler then the flue spigot unit should be unbolted form the boiler.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article ,
Stefek Zaba writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by
a separate multi-point water heater.

Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)

Well, "Two Separates" would be more correct in my case...

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 25 Dec 2004 01:13:39 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Stefek Zaba writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by
a separate multi-point water heater.

Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)

Well, "Two Separates" would be more correct in my case...



A win-win situation..... :-)





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| Stefek Zaba writes:
| My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled
| by a separate multi-point water heater.
| Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)
| Well, "Two Separates" would be more correct in my case...

Hmmm, maybe Component Heating will be the next must-have in-home accessory.
With gold-plated braided hose interconnects of course.

Owain

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 13:55:23 -0000, "Owain"
wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| Stefek Zaba writes:
| My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled
| by a separate multi-point water heater.
| Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)
| Well, "Two Separates" would be more correct in my case...

Hmmm, maybe Component Heating will be the next must-have in-home accessory.
With gold-plated braided hose interconnects of course.

Owain



You mean you haven't got it?


Obviously hasn't reached north of the border yet then.....




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

ground beef
1 cup finely chopped onions
7 - 12 cloves garlic
1 cup seasoned bread crumbs
½ cup milk, 2 eggs
Oregano
basil
salt
pepper
Italian seasoning, etc.
Tomato gravy (see index)
Fresh or at least freshly cooked spaghetti or other pasta

Mix the ground meats together in a large bowl,
then mix each of the other ingredients.
Make balls about the size of a baby?s fist
(there should be one lying around for reference).
Bake at 400°for about 25 minutes -
or you could fry them in olive oil.
Place the meatballs in the tomato gravy, and simmer for several hours.
Serve on spaghetti.
Accompany with green salad, garlic bread and red wine.



Newborn Parmesan

This classic Sicilian cuisine can easily be turned into Eggplant Parmesan
If you are planning a vegetarian meal. Or you could just as well use veal -
after all, you have to be careful - Sicilians are touchy about their young
family members...

6 newborn or veal cutlets
Tomato gravy (see index)
4 cups mozzarella, 1cup parmesan, 1cup romano
Seasoned bre

30 - 45 minutes.



Umbilical Cordon Bleu

Nothing is so beautiful as the bond between mother and child,
so why not consume it?
Children or chicken breasts will work wonderfully also.

4 whole umbilical chords (or baby breasts, or chicken breasts)
4 thin slices of smoked ham, and Gruyere cheese
Flour
eggwash (milk and eggs)
seasoned bread crumbs
1 onion
minced
salt
pepper
butter
olive oil

Pound the breasts flat (parboil first if using umbilical
cords so they won?t be tough).
Place a slice of ham and cheese on each, along with some minced onion
then fold in half, trimming neatly.
Dredge in flour, eggwash, then seasoned breadcrumbs;
allow to sit for a few minutes.
Sauté in butter and olive oil until golden brown,
about 6 minutes on each side.



Shish Kababes

As old as the hills, this technique has employed seafood, beef, pork, lamb,
poultry, and vegetables; just about anything can be grilled, and young humans
are no exception!

High quality marinade (Teriyaki and garlic perhaps)
1 inch cubes of tender meat, preferably from the nursery
Onions
bell peppers
Wooden or metal skewers

Marinate the meat overnight.
Get the grill good and hot while placing meat, vegetables, and
fruit such as pineapples or cherries on the skewers.
Don?t be afraid to use a variety of meats.
Grill to medium rare,
serve with garlic cous-cous and sautéed asparagus.
Coffee and sherbet for desert then walnuts, cheese,

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:04:16 +0000, fred wrote:



I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water
demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you,
it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not
long enough to kill off the slime.

I'm interested in the circuit - I would like mine to do flat out for HW
and then I could experiment with low temps for the rads.

Right, back now & I will post it. Will see if I can make it work with an ascii
art so it is archivable, otherwise I will make a sketch & post is somewhere
binary friendly.
--
fred

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
fred writes:

I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water
demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you,

Interesting. I've built a replacement for the front panel indicator
board, which allows me to remote monitor it and remote control the
temperature setting. I've had it in the boiler for initial testing
only, but at the moment it's sitting in a breadboarded moch-up on
the workbench whilst I write the controlling software.

I'd forgotten you'd mentioned something about this in the past, controlling
from a PC IIRC. Didn't fancy a PC doing the work so my plan is to do the
control with dedicated hardware (an FPGA) as that is my area of expertise.
Needless to say the system is running on a basic room stat & TRVs setup
until I get a chance to set up the hardware for a multizone job ;-)

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by
a separate multi-point water heater. Without the type of additional
temperature control we both seem to have developed, it didn't seem
particularly suited to a combined heating/hot water system whilst
also optimising the condensing mode of operation for heating.

it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not
long enough to kill off the slime.

The full whack at the beginning is just to get the water up to the
set temperature -- I don't think it will result in the slime at the
bottom of the heat exchanger getting any hotter than during normal
running.

Yes I see your point, mine runs for about 20mins at a time on hot water
but no help for you there.

Re the trap filling, maybe that's a good reason to have a flexible hose on
the condensate drain so you could raise it above the level of the trap & fill
from a funnel. That might also be a way to reverse flush the combustion
chamber in a colonic irrigation kinda way - sorry, don't know where that
little bit of imagery came from, maybe that feeling following too much
turkey dinner.
--
fred

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:24:18 -0800, Martyn Pollard wrote:

Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know the
exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If I
get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they
send an engineer out.

Ah 'buzz bombing' as I call it.
AFAIK after consultation with their technical dept it is due to the burner
being slightly weak. You really need a combustion analyser to make sure
that the CO2 values are in spec at both the minimum and maximum rates.

Def seconded on that one (running weak). I set mine up using their timed
meter rate method (wot a joke) and as a result set it far too weak. I hired
an analyser (HSS do them) and once it was set up properly it hasn't been
a problem. Running weak also caused serious ignition problems.
--
fred