I'm doing some renovating work an old house at the mo, and have turned my
attention to the electrics... Today I've been endeavouring to check the
various earth cables and bonding arrangements. I've found two old green
6mm(?) earth lead which emerge from the plaster adjacent to the (ancient)
fusebox and connect to a terminal block, from which I'd expect to find at
least one wire heading for the fusebox, and another heading for the house
earth, whatever that is. But as far as I can see(*), nothing; so presumably
there's no earthing in the house at all. All I can find is a small,
uninsulated, twisted wire dangling down from the terminal block, with an eye
in one end, which once upon a time will have been connected somewhere I
suppose.

This lot clearly needs some work to sort out; but I am confused about what
earthing provision there _should_ be. I've read the FAQ again, but am not
clear how I find out what sort of earthing system I have, or should have.
Is it up to the electric co to provide one, ie can I whinge at them? Or do
I need to fit an earthing rod? If so, where do you put them - this is a
solid floor house, and the front (which is where the meters are) is directly
on to the pavement.

Thanks for any pointers.

David


*It's incredibly difficult to see anything; some knobhead has installed the
gas meter directly in front of the electric meter and board (presumably too
close for regs); and then somebody else, equally cerebrally-challenged, has
built a large fitted cupboard enclosing the whole lot, in the corner of the
room. Best I can do is point my digital camera round the back of the gas
meter and then examine the pictures!

Best I can do is point my digital camera round the back of the gas
meter and then examine the pictures!

If you would...

Christian.

In message ,
"Christian McArdle" wrote:

Best I can do is point my digital camera round the back of the gas
meter and then examine the pictures!

If you would...


In case that was too obscure, what Christian is saying is that it would
help us enormously if you could take a few shots of the installation (an
overview and one or two closeups perhaps), stick them up on a website
somewhere and then post the link in this thread.

As you say, sounds like you have an interesting situation and need to
get sorted.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... I believe I will take this opportunity to remove my ears.

"Lobster" wrote
| ... I've found two old green 6mm(?) earth lead which emerge from the
| plaster adjacent to the (ancient) fusebox and connect to a terminal
| block,

Those might disappear off to water and gas pipes somewhere.

| from which I'd expect to find at least one wire heading for
| the fusebox, and another heading for the house earth, whatever that
| is. But as far as I can see(*), nothing; so presumably there's no
| earthing in the house at all. All I can find is a small, uninsulated,
| twisted wire dangling down from the terminal block, with an eye
| in one end, which once upon a time will have been connected somewhere
| I suppose.

to the fusebox, especially if it is (or an even older one was) metalclad.

It is also possible that there's an earth (ie bonding) from a socket in the
kitchen to the cold water main, and that, brought back through the circuit
protective conductor to the fusebox, was considered sufficient to earth the
whole installation.

Owain

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message ,
"Christian McArdle" wrote:

Best I can do is point my digital camera round the back of the gas
meter and then examine the pictures!

If you would...


In case that was too obscure, what Christian is saying is that it would
help us enormously if you could take a few shots of the installation (an
overview and one or two closeups perhaps), stick them up on a website
somewhere and then post the link in this thread.

Yup, I realised! OK, after a protracted session of Noddy does HTML, please
have a look at http://tinyurl.com/67ggt where I've done my best. Any advice
appreciated (and I don't mean 'rip it out and start again'; I think that
goes without saying! It's the earthing question I'm most concerned about.)

Thanks a lot
David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message ,
"Christian McArdle" wrote:

Best I can do is point my digital camera round the back of the gas
meter and then examine the pictures!

If you would...


In case that was too obscure, what Christian is saying is that it would
help us enormously if you could take a few shots of the installation (an
overview and one or two closeups perhaps), stick them up on a website
somewhere and then post the link in this thread.

Yup, I realised! OK, after a protracted session of Noddy does HTML,
please
have a look at http://tinyurl.com/67ggt where I've done my best. Any
advice
appreciated (and I don't mean 'rip it out and start again'; I think that
goes without saying! It's the earthing question I'm most concerned
about.)

Thanks a lot
David



WOW WEEEEEE !!!!!! Rip it out and start again mate!!! If you have an
electrical fire at the consumer unit (God Forbid), or a lightning strike to
the power supply outside, you won't know anything about it. It would be
over for you by the time you got out your seat.

You now need at least a 10mm sq' Green / Yellow sleeved conductor from the
consumer side of both the water and gas supplies, and that means even over
the short distances you have between the gas and electrical service in the
cupboard. These two leads can be connected to a separate block beside the
consumer unit and then one other lead directly from the block to your
consumer unit earthing bar.

You'll also need a sixteen millimetre (16mm) sq' Green / Yellow from the
earthing bar of the consumer unit to the main supply cable of the electrical
service headend, which is under the black main fuse block, and properly
clamped to the outer braiding of the supply cable.

For one thing, the electrical supply should be at a minimum of 500mm spacing
away from any gas supply equipment, and vice versa of course. Next, the gas
and electrical supplies should be fully accessible in case of emergency.

The last thing to have been installed inside that cupboard was the gas
meter, and it sure weren't fitted by a CORGI engineer. The soldering gives
that show away, unless that is, the engineer was going in blind like you had
to with the camera.

By the look of it you'll have to, and I mean have to, move either the gas
meter or the electrics to one side of the cupboard, and leave the other
service supply at the other side. This looks to be the only way you're
going to get the 500mm spacing between them in the area you've got to work
in.

Rip it out and start again mate. For your own safety.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Lobster" wrote in message
...

Yup, I realised! OK, after a protracted session of Noddy does HTML,
please
have a look at http://tinyurl.com/67ggt where I've done my best. Any
advice
appreciated (and I don't mean 'rip it out and start again'; I think that
goes without saying! It's the earthing question I'm most concerned
about.)

WOW WEEEEEE !!!!!! Rip it out and start again mate!!! If you have an
electrical fire at the consumer unit (God Forbid), or a lightning strike
to
the power supply outside, you won't know anything about it. It would be
over for you by the time you got out your seat.

Yeah, cool isn't it! Have no fear, 'rip out' is definitely the plan...!

You'll also need a sixteen millimetre (16mm) sq' Green / Yellow from the
earthing bar of the consumer unit to the main supply cable of the
electrical
service headend, which is under the black main fuse block, and properly
clamped to the outer braiding of the supply cable.

This bit was really the reason for my post, cos I'm not clear about the main
'supply' earth. The other issues I'm Ok with. So I take it that it's
possible to confirm that mine is definitely a TN-S system (he says, having
just looked at the FAQ again!)? If I scrape away the black crap which seems
to cover the electrical service headend, I should find braid there, then?
(As you'll appreciate, this is well-nigh impossible to get at to even check,
right now).

By the look of it you'll have to, and I mean have to, move either the gas
meter or the electrics to one side of the cupboard, and leave the other
service supply at the other side. This looks to be the only way you're
going to get the 500mm spacing between them in the area you've got to work
in.

Yes, fortunately the cupboard is L-shaped (goes round the corner to the
right), so it will be quite easy to get the gas meter moved round there.

Thanks for the reply
David

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Lobster" wrote
| ... I've found two old green 6mm(?) earth lead which emerge from the
| plaster adjacent to the (ancient) fusebox and connect to a terminal
| block,

Those might disappear off to water and gas pipes somewhere.

Indeed; one such lead is in fact attached to CW piping below the kitchen
sink (which is close to the water main, located at the opposite end of the
house) but I haven't confirmed continuity to one of those near the fusebox
yet.

It is also possible that there's an earth (ie bonding) from a socket in
the
kitchen to the cold water main, and that, brought back through the circuit
protective conductor to the fusebox, was considered sufficient to earth
the
whole installation.

Yes that does fit the evidence! If so, I suppose the place is marginally
less of a death trap than I thought, but either way, it will be sorted.

Thanks
David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped
service headend, which is under the black main fuse block, and properly
clamped to the outer braiding of the supply cable.

This bit was really the reason for my post, cos I'm not clear about the
main
'supply' earth. The other issues I'm Ok with. So I take it that it's
possible to confirm that mine is definitely a TN-S system (he says, having
just looked at the FAQ again!)? If I scrape away the black crap which
seems
to cover the electrical service headend, I should find braid there, then?
(As you'll appreciate, this is well-nigh impossible to get at to even
check,
right now).


The service mains cable you have, by what is showing in the pictures, is an
older wire armoured type, so it will have a braiding around it. Wither it
is properly earth bonded further down the line is another matter, but best
to bond it anyway to make sure. Both water and gas services need to be
bonded on the consumer side of the installation. This means on the parts of
the pipework that go into the house and not on the parts that comes from the
outside of the building.

Good luck with it.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"Lobster" wrote
| Yup, I realised! OK, after a protracted session of Noddy does
| HTML,

www.irfanview.com will produce an HTML gallery of thumbnails with links to
your original images. For linux, try mkgallery

| please have a look at http://tinyurl.com/67ggt

a.k.a.
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/eric...rcupboard.html

| where I've done my best. Any advice appreciated (and I don't
| mean 'rip it out and start again'; I think that goes without
| saying! It's the earthing question I'm most concerned about.)

I'd worry more about the gas than the electrics. I've seen better soldering
by blind heroin addicts.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message ...
"Lobster" wrote
| ... I've found two old green 6mm(?) earth lead which emerge from the
| plaster adjacent to the (ancient) fusebox and connect to a terminal
| block,

Those might disappear off to water and gas pipes somewhere.

or they might be disconnected, who knows. Have seen that one before.


It is also possible that there's an earth (ie bonding) from a socket in the
kitchen to the cold water main, and that, brought back through the circuit
protective conductor to the fusebox, was considered sufficient to earth the
whole installation.


You say the house has been rewired recently, but to be honest thats
hard to believe from the pics of the fusebox. Partial rewiring might
have been done, but the idea that someone managed to gain enough
access to that old fusebox is stretching it. And again, if they didnt
replace an old and inaccessible 4-way wire fuse only box, or even
upgrade it to mcbs, youve got to wonder what they were thinking.

Does the bathroom have equipotential bonding? Is there an electric
shower? Electric cooker? Is there an earth wire running down the side
of the house exterior?

Clearly youve got to start again, at least in the CU area, but before
doing that youve got to get access. I dont know whats going on with
the cupboard but you'll have to make at the minimum another access
door so you can actually get to things, both to do the work, and for
future householder access.

If I knew who'd done the gas job I'd be calling them back to refit it
sensibly at no further cost. On second thoughts..... maybe not!

If it were mine I might start by checking resistance from house wiring
earth to real earth, as it would at least give a very quick idea of
how unsatisfactory things are. If R is high you would have a high risk
install there. If R is nice and low that would at least be reassuring
on that fairly major point.

I also would check and test all existing circuits, with a setup like
that I wouldnt want to make assumptions.


NT

In article ,
BigWallop wrote:
The service mains cable you have, by what is showing in the pictures, is
an older wire armoured type, so it will have a braiding around it.
Wither it is properly earth bonded further down the line is another
matter, but best to bond it anyway to make sure. Both water and gas
services need to be bonded on the consumer side of the installation.
This means on the parts of the pipework that go into the house and not
on the parts that comes from the outside of the building.

I'm confused. ;-) If you're not sure about the armoured cable, shouldn't
you use an earth spike? Or shouldn't you anyway?

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Owain wrote:
I'd worry more about the gas than the electrics. I've seen better
soldering by blind heroin addicts.

Not too neat, is it?. But could still be perfectly safe.

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Owain wrote:
I'd worry more about the gas than the electrics. I've seen better
soldering by blind heroin addicts.

Not too neat, is it?. But could still be perfectly safe.

And you know what? According to NPower, the whole setup *is* perfectly
safe....

I phone a corgi this morning, to come and shift the gas meter.
Corgi: "Sorry, no can do; everything upstream of and including the meter is
Transco's responsibility"

I get a nasty feeling coming on.

I phone Transco.

Transco drone "No, we don't do that, it's the responsibility of your gas
supplier"

The nasty feeling is definitely materialising...

I phone NPower and explain all the details of my extremely dangerous
installation which needs sorting out pronto.
NPower drone: "OK I'll pass on your details to the appropriate dept; they
will send you out a questionnaire; when you return that they'll send you a
quote..."
"Whoa! And how long is it likely to take until I get this sorted out"
Drone: "Usually 6-8 weeks"
"But I'm phoning to get this work done purely because it's a safety issue;
it needs doing now, not in two months!"
Drone: "Errrrrr just a minute..."
Shortly afterwards I am duly passed up the chain of command a bit.
Senior Drone: "Could you please explain the problem again?"
I do so, in all its gory detail.
Senior Drone: "Well it must be safe and OK because none of our agents have
ever reported it as being an issue"
"But the meter is practically touching the fuse box - they have to be 0.5m
apart doesn't it?"
Senior Drone: "Well it must be safe and OK because none of our agents have
ever reported it as being an issue"

Oh God...
1....2.....3.....4.....5.....6....

Senior Drone: "However, if you prefer a CORGI-registered engineer could do
the work for you, if it only needs moving less than 1 metre..."
"But.... but..... but...."
Senior Drone: ".... Transco changed the rules about 6 weeks ago"
"So how do I convince my local Corgi guy about that?"
Senior Drone: "Oh you'll need to phone Transco...".

click....

Unbelievable.
What do you do? I feel like sending a photo of the installation to Transco
by recorded delivery, holding them liable for the safety of the residents,
but providing I can convince my corgi to just go in and do the job, I don't
think I can be bothered. :-(

David

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

You say the house has been rewired recently, but to be honest thats
hard to believe from the pics of the fusebox. Partial rewiring might
have been done, but the idea that someone managed to gain enough
access to that old fusebox is stretching it. And again, if they didnt
replace an old and inaccessible 4-way wire fuse only box, or even
upgrade it to mcbs, youve got to wonder what they were thinking.

You may be right - I can't remember (or find!) what I said about rewiring,
but it certainly wouldn't have been that
recent; I just meant that it was more recent than the fusebox suggests. I
would certainly
guess that the gas meter was added later though.

I certainly have lots of checking to do; I agree.

If it were mine I might start by checking resistance from house wiring
earth to real earth, as it would at least give a very quick idea of
how unsatisfactory things are. If R is high you would have a high risk
install there. If R is nice and low that would at least be reassuring
on that fairly major point.

What do you define as 'real earth' - are you refering to the incoming cable
sheath? Or an earth rod somewhere (which would be difficult as there's no
'soft' ground anywhere nearby.

Thanks
David

"BigWallop" wrote in message
k...

The service mains cable you have, by what is showing in the pictures, is
an
older wire armoured type, so it will have a braiding around it. Wither it
is properly earth bonded further down the line is another matter, but best
to bond it anyway to make sure.

Thanks. Do you do this using the same sort of earth clamp as you'd use for
bonding to a water pipe, or is there something different? (I can't find
mention of any other sort).

David

If nothing else, console yourself that you have given some of us here
a hell of a laugh.

"Better soldering by blind heroin addicts", indeed.

Jeez, I thought I had problems and now at least I know it is not just
me that hates calling these companies.

Good luck with it all.

Rob


Replace 'spam' with 'org' to reply

"Lobster" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
k...

The service mains cable you have, by what is showing in the pictures, is
an
older wire armoured type, so it will have a braiding around it. Wither
it
is properly earth bonded further down the line is another matter, but
best
to bond it anyway to make sure.

Thanks. Do you do this using the same sort of earth clamp as you'd use
for
bonding to a water pipe, or is there something different? (I can't find
mention of any other sort).

David



A standard earth strap is ideal Dave, nothing fancy needed mate.

"Kalico" wrote in message
news
If nothing else, console yourself that you have given some of us here
a hell of a laugh.

"Better soldering by blind heroin addicts", indeed.

Jeez, I thought I had problems and now at least I know it is not just
me that hates calling these companies.

Good luck with it all.

Rob


LOL !!!

Now I'm wondering where Owain saw a blind heroin addict soldering a gas
meter? And doing a better job than the one that done Lobsters meter? :-))
LOL !!!

On 4 Nov 2004 "Lobster" wrote:

"Owain" wrote:
"Lobster" wrote
| ... I've found two old green 6mm(?) earth lead which emerge from
| the plaster adjacent to the (ancient) fusebox and connect to a
| terminal block,

Those might disappear off to water and gas pipes somewhere.

Indeed; one such lead is in fact attached to CW piping below the
kitchen sink (which is close to the water main, located at the
opposite end of the house) but I haven't confirmed continuity to one
of those near the fusebox yet.

It is also possible that there's an earth (ie bonding) from a socket
in the kitchen to the cold water main, and that, brought back through
the circuit protective conductor to the fusebox, was considered
sufficient to earth the whole installation.

Yes that does fit the evidence! If so, I suppose the place is marginally
less of a death trap than I thought, but either way, it will be sorted.

It used to be common practice to bond the house earth to the rising
water main. However with water companies increasingly using plastic
piping this is no longer reliable. It's now necessary to bond the
house's water system to an independent earth.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

"Lobster" wrote in message ...
"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

You say the house has been rewired recently, but to be honest thats
hard to believe from the pics of the fusebox. Partial rewiring might
have been done, but the idea that someone managed to gain enough
access to that old fusebox is stretching it. And again, if they didnt
replace an old and inaccessible 4-way wire fuse only box, or even
upgrade it to mcbs, youve got to wonder what they were thinking.

You may be right - I can't remember (or find!) what I said about rewiring,
but it certainly wouldn't have been that
recent; I just meant that it was more recent than the fusebox suggests.

4 way Wylexes are typical 70s kit, and were widely installed in the
80s as well. Those old Wylexes arent as old as they first appear. In
the 70s they were partly wooden, and many people have misjudged their
age.

I
would certainly
guess that the gas meter was added later though.

ha, I hope so! If the leccy were added _sfter_ the gas there would be
more reason to worry


I certainly have lots of checking to do; I agree.

If it were mine I might start by checking resistance from house wiring
earth to real earth, as it would at least give a very quick idea of
how unsatisfactory things are. If R is high you would have a high risk
install there. If R is nice and low that would at least be reassuring
on that fairly major point.

What do you define as 'real earth' - are you refering to the incoming cable
sheath? Or an earth rod somewhere (which would be difficult as there's no
'soft' ground anywhere nearby.

Local earth rod, which you probably have in the form of an incoming
metal water mains pipe. Confirming low R doesnt mean all is well, but
it at least would eliminate the biggest possible risk of all, the lack
of any functional earth.

Unfortunately having an earth connection doesnt automatically imply it
will work as a safety feature. If earth R is too high, with no RCD the
fuse wires would sit there forever more before anything blows, with
the whole earth circuit live - but its not very likely to be anything
like that bad.


NT

"Lobster" wrote in message ...

Unbelievable.
What do you do?

First, resist the urge to do what youd really like to do.
A lawyer might be able to advise.

This is the penultimate result of the modern practice of putting
complete t--- in charge of things that matter.


"Well it must be safe and OK because none of our agents have
ever reported it as being an issue"

what a joke. I would be tempted to repeat that sentence slowly, word
by word, as if writing it down, then suggest that if that comes out in
court after an accident they would really have problems. And that yes
you have warned the householders in writing of the dangers present.


NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
"Lobster" wrote in message
...

Unbelievable.
What do you do?

First, resist the urge to do what youd really like to do.
A lawyer might be able to advise.

This is the penultimate result of the modern practice of putting
complete t--- in charge of things that matter.

"Well it must be safe and OK because none of our agents have
ever reported it as being an issue"

what a joke. I would be tempted to repeat that sentence slowly, word
by word, as if writing it down, then suggest that if that comes out in
court after an accident they would really have problems. And that yes
you have warned the householders in writing of the dangers present.

Well for those that are interested (and somebody must be, as 90 of you have
inspected the shambles on the website link I gave!) I wasted another hour or
so on this "project" this morning...

I spoke to several Corgis, as well as your actual CORGI, Transco (several
times each) and got more or less equal numbers of responses of "yes a corgi
can move a meter" and "no a corgi can't move a meter" (it was particularly
inspiring that two separate calls to Transco elicited diametrically opposite
responses). A tech guy at CORGI gave me contact details of half a dozen
local fitters who he said had completed their "MET 1" certification which
enabled them to move meters, but the two of them I managed to get hold of
said told me that was b****ks.

Finally I had, erm, a sense of humour failure on the phone with Transco, and
to cut a long story short, it ended with them coming round to my way of
thinking, and they sent an engineer round 3 hours later to inspect, on
safety grounds. The guy who came was very relaxed about it, said he'd seen
plenty worse and that it wasn't really a priority issue, but he agreed to
shift it anyway, FOC. So he's left me with the meter in a new position,
capped off, and all (all?) I need to do now is get a corgi round to
reconnect it to the house gas system. Result! And now I can finally
access, and get to grips with the electrics shambles!

David

Lobster wrote:

What do you define as 'real earth' - are you refering to the incoming cable
sheath? Or an earth rod somewhere (which would be difficult as there's no
'soft' ground anywhere nearby.

From the photos it looks as if there _might_ be an earth connection
made to the sheath of the supply cable - i.e. a TN-S earth. Now that
the gas meter is out of the way can you post a photo showing the supply
head - basically the same as 2.jpg but without the gas meter.

Other points:

- there appears no main bonding conductor to the gas service. Add this
once the Corgi man has done his bit. It needs to be 10mm^2 and goes
between the gas pipe on your side of the meter and the main earth
terminal; ditto for water if main bonding is missing;

- clean everything up;

- replace the fuse cover on the Wylex CU.

--
Andy

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
snipped
said told me that was b****ks.

Finally I had, erm, a sense of humour failure on the phone with Transco,
and
to cut a long story short, it ended with them coming round to my way of
thinking, and they sent an engineer round 3 hours later to inspect, on
safety grounds. The guy who came was very relaxed about it, said he'd
seen
plenty worse and that it wasn't really a priority issue, but he agreed to
shift it anyway, FOC. So he's left me with the meter in a new position,
capped off, and all (all?) I need to do now is get a corgi round to
reconnect it to the house gas system. Result! And now I can finally
access, and get to grips with the electrics shambles!

David



Yippee !!! Good on ya' Davey Boy. Keep up the fight with the big
monopoly's and you'll win every time.

Do we get to see the pictures of where they moved the gas meter too?
Please.


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