present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads and a
decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to the most
reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly appreciated.

Thanks

willsniffer wrote:

present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads and a
decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to the most
reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly appreciated.

Thanks



Our 2 year old 28Kw Vaillant has been problem free and the DHW
performance IMO is good - but then we have very high mains pressure here
and I don't like the DHW set above 55C anyway...

It's easily more economical than the museum piece it replaced :-)

Only downside is that it's noisy, in that it's "clunky" with the relays
and stuff, not just ours either, the neighbours' one is the same.

Lee
--
To reply use lee.blaver and NTL world com

willsniffer wrote:
present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads
and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to
the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for 80kW
model from www.mrcentralheating.com
The Ariston microgenius are another good make. I've had excellent service
from their UK techie people.
27kw model is £539 from same outlet.

BillR wrote:
willsniffer wrote:
present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads
and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to
the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly
appreciated.

Thanks

Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for
80kW model from www.mrcentralheating.com
The Ariston microgenius are another good make. I've had excellent
service from their UK techie people.
27kw model is £539 from same outlet.

Ferroli are not highly regarded by me! We have a Ferroli Modena 1200 (with
8 rads and a decent shower as it happens), and it has given nothing but
trouble in the last 2 years. It's my first experience of a combi, and
possibly the last. It's noisy, unreliable and produces only a trickle of
hot water in the winter.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:28:14 +0000 (UTC), "Simon Stroud"
wrote:



We have an Eco Hometec EC31S combi (36kW DHW output). We are extremely
pleased with it. A slightly obscure make, but we went for it after seeing it
recommended here. No problems so far and (at least during summertime) it can
drive two very good showers simultaneously - handy when trying to get all
our boys off to bed!

See www.eco-hometec.co.uk for details

If you need any more details do a google groups search for my name - I have
posted plenty of info on this previously.

Regards,

Simon Stroud.


This is actually the MAN Micromat, made by MAN Heiztechnik in Bremen.
I have the non-combi version of this product. Eco Hometec are one of
the UK distributors, MHS Boilers being the other. Each stick on
their own label (sometimes) and the products are sold directly and not
through the trade merchants. Most are sold to self builders and
others looking for high quality energy saving products.

MAN is not that obscure, although are better known for trucks, buses
and diesel engines. The boiler manufacturing division is a fairly
well known player in Germany although not at the same volume as
Vaillant.

The Micromat is a well engineered and solid product with sophisticated
controls (all microprocessor based so no hardware reliability impact).
From an energy perspective it is saving between 25 and 30% as compared
to an old Glow Worm.

Not an inexpensive product, but I think very good value for money.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"BillR" wrote in message
...
willsniffer wrote:
present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads
and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to
the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for 80kW
model from www.mrcentralheating.com
The Ariston microgenius are another good make. I've had excellent service
from their UK techie people.
27kw model is £539 from same outlet.

I agree. Best get the Ferroli Modena 102 rather than the 80, which gives a
higher flowrate. The Microgenus is the smallest combi case around and has a
keep-warm heat exchanger to eliminate the cold lag to taps that many combi's
have. It has all failsafe devices such as anti-scale, anti-frost, built-in
filler loop, time clock, etc.

The Wickes Combi 102 is a good boiler too. Made by Halstead



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"Richard J." wrote in message
...
BillR wrote:
willsniffer wrote:
present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads
and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to
the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly
appreciated.

Thanks

Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for
80kW model from www.mrcentralheating.com
The Ariston microgenius are another good make. I've had excellent
service from their UK techie people.
27kw model is £539 from same outlet.

Ferroli are not highly regarded by me! We have a Ferroli Modena 1200
(with
8 rads and a decent shower as it happens), and it has given nothing but
trouble in the last 2 years. It's my first experience of a combi, and
possibly the last. It's noisy, unreliable and produces only a trickle of
hot water in the winter.

What has gone wrong?


---
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Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 06/06/2003

Andy Hall wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:28:14 +0000 (UTC), "Simon Stroud"
wrote:



We have an Eco Hometec EC31S combi (36kW DHW output). We are extremely
pleased with it. A slightly obscure make, but we went for it after seeing
it
recommended here. No problems so far and (at least during summertime) it
can
drive two very good showers simultaneously - handy when trying to get all
our boys off to bed!

See www.eco-hometec.co.uk for details

If you need any more details do a google groups search for my name - I
have
posted plenty of info on this previously.

Regards,

Simon Stroud.


This is actually the MAN Micromat, made by MAN Heiztechnik in Bremen.
I have the non-combi version of this product. Eco Hometec are one of
the UK distributors, MHS Boilers being the other. Each stick on
their own label (sometimes) and the products are sold directly and not
through the trade merchants. Most are sold to self builders and
others looking for high quality energy saving products.

MAN is not that obscure, although are better known for trucks, buses
and diesel engines. The boiler manufacturing division is a fairly
well known player in Germany although not at the same volume as
Vaillant.

The Micromat is a well engineered and solid product with sophisticated
controls (all microprocessor based so no hardware reliability impact).
From an energy perspective it is saving between 25 and 30% as compared
to an old Glow Worm.

Not an inexpensive product, but I think very good value for money.



.andy

Andy,

Thanks for the more comprehensive summary and a reminder about the
Micromat's true manufacturer. By "obscure" I was really referring to the
"nobody has heard of it" and more worryingly most plumbers/heating
installers that I spoke to when trying to get mine installed had the
approach of "haven't heard of that - wouldn't want to touch it". What they
probably mean is that they can't get it for £400 down at the local PM and
then charge £2500 for putting supplying one - most entertaining.

Regards,
Simon.

PS Hope your London meet goes well tomorrow. I would have been there but
unfortunately I'll be travelling half way across the country to pick up my
new car - that's the slight problem with these deals arranged by a broker.
Oh well, it was a good saving.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:38:07 +0000 (UTC), "Simon Stroud"
wrote:

Andy,

Thanks for the more comprehensive summary and a reminder about the
Micromat's true manufacturer. By "obscure" I was really referring to the
"nobody has heard of it" and more worryingly most plumbers/heating
installers that I spoke to when trying to get mine installed had the
approach of "haven't heard of that - wouldn't want to touch it".

There is a lot of conservatism in that industry. One only has to
spend a short time in a heating merchant early morning or late
afternoon to hear some of the misinformed claptrap about condensing
boilers or anything else other than what they have fitted for the last
15 years.

AIUI, Eco-Hometec mainly sell to self builders, who tend, quite often,
to hand pick components for the house and/or are sensitive to
eco-issues and to people looking for something better than the run of
the mill. MHS mainly has the larger capacity models and I believe
sells to projects requiring more capacity or small commercial
requirements needing multiple boilers. There is a mechanism to group
together multiple Micromats and have the modulating control across all
of them. A tip here. The manual on the MHS site for the Micromat
is far better produced than Eco-Hometec's translation and especially
with application notes and the operating modes described.

What they
probably mean is that they can't get it for £400 down at the local PM and
then charge £2500 for putting supplying one - most entertaining.

Quite. Then there are the loyalty incentives from the large
manufacturers like the holidays in Eye-bye-za and monogrammed
overalls.

I've always found it curious in the construction industry how
everybody has the same name. Mate. In the various merchants they
always seem to be on first name terms, which is friendly, I suppose.
I was wondering whether it's a derivation from Matthew or something,
and whether change of name by deed poll is required before becoming a
brickie or heating engineer.....


Regards,
Simon.






PS Hope your London meet goes well tomorrow. I would have been there but
unfortunately I'll be travelling half way across the country to pick up my
new car - that's the slight problem with these deals arranged by a broker.
Oh well, it was a good saving.

Thanks for that. Hopefully next time.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I spoke to several manufacturers when I was choosing a boiler.
More than one said to me that whilst condensing boilers are around
10% of the home market, they are pretty well all DIY installations.
Got into a conversation with some gas fitters at a trade counter.
They all said they would try and talk someone out of fitting a
condensing boiler, but if someone really wanted it, they would fit
it but would not commission or service it -- that had to be arranged
with the manufacturer.


Which probably explains why people have no faith in British plumbers! Did
they give any reasoning behind this bizarre behaviour?
--
Regards

Tony Hogarty
(take out garbage to reply)

Hi,

had a Worcester Greenstar 28KW last 2 years (not a CDi with the leaky
exchanger). Been very good except a problem with the brains which Worcester
replaced free of charge under Manufacturers Guarentee.

Heats 11 rads in 2 zone setup with an excellent shower and has a small
internal reservoir for immediate hot water. It is quite large tho.

It also survived me draining down the heating, then switching it on by
accident, then over-repressurising it, then restarting it with the water
turned off. And every time I cocked up it gave me an error code which I
could look up in the manual (Never DIY with a bad hangover).

Bax

IMM wrote:
"BillR" wrote in message
...
willsniffer wrote:
present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8
rads and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience
as to
the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly
appreciated.

Thanks

Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for
80kW model from www.mrcentralheating.com
The Ariston microgenius are another good make. I've had excellent
service from their UK techie people.
27kw model is £539 from same outlet.

I agree. Best get the Ferroli Modena 102 rather than the 80, which
gives a higher flowrate. The Microgenus is the smallest combi case
around and has a keep-warm heat exchanger to eliminate the cold lag
to taps that many combi's have. It has all failsafe devices such as
anti-scale, anti-frost, built-in filler loop, time clock, etc.

The Wickes Combi 102 is a good boiler too. Made by Halstead

I meant to say the Ferroli Moderna102. The £499 price was for this model

In article ,
Tony Hogarty writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I spoke to several manufacturers when I was choosing a boiler.
More than one said to me that whilst condensing boilers are around
10% of the home market, they are pretty well all DIY installations.
Got into a conversation with some gas fitters at a trade counter.
They all said they would try and talk someone out of fitting a
condensing boiler, but if someone really wanted it, they would fit
it but would not commission or service it -- that had to be arranged
with the manufacturer.

Which probably explains why people have no faith in British plumbers! Did
they give any reasoning behind this bizarre behaviour?

Yes. Some of it was bull****, but I wanted to hear it so I
didn't try and correct anything.

The main reason was lack of reliability and expensive repairs.
I can't argue with that -- I don't have the necessary data.
Bloke behind the counter said one of the manufacturers was on
fourth redesign of condensate drain in a year and third redesign
of something else and someone else's heat exchangers usually
failed just after warantee and cost over half the cost of the
boiler, and the tale of woe went on. Basically, after fitting,
they have to keep going back to sort the boiler, which gives the
fitter a bad name, so they don't fit them. I asked specifically
about the Keston (which I chose) and Ariston (which I looked at
because it was the smallest one made). There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.
They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why.
Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't
have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also
assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the
lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.

So, what are the issues?
I can believe that boilers based on conventional technology
which has matured over very many decades are probably more
reliable than boilers based on new technology. There seems
to be a problem (or at least a believed problem) in condensing
boilers not lasting out or very far past their warantee period
without expensive repairs required.
I suspect gas fitters have been using the same traditional
brands for condensing boilers which they use for conventional
boilers, and it seems to me those brands probably aren't the
best -- they certainly entered the game late.
Gas fitters are conservative (which is not unreasonable when
your salary depends on it) and/or gas fitters don't understand
condensing technology.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 31 Jul 2003 08:26:09 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

AIUI, Eco-Hometec mainly sell to self builders, who tend, quite often,
to hand pick components for the house and/or are sensitive to
eco-issues and to people looking for something better than the run of
the mill.

I spoke to several manufacturers when I was choosing a boiler.
More than one said to me that whilst condensing boilers are around
10% of the home market, they are pretty well all DIY installations.
Got into a conversation with some gas fitters at a trade counter.
They all said they would try and talk someone out of fitting a
condensing boiler, but if someone really wanted it, they would fit
it but would not commission or service it -- that had to be arranged
with the manufacturer.

That's pretty pathetic, isn't it.

The only reasons I can see for that is if they are still hanging on
the old wives tales of the unreliability of early UK manufactured
products, or they don't know how to properly fit a condensate drain,
or if the set up procedure requires a flue gas analyser.

If it's the last of these, there is really no excuse, they ought to
have one anyway since they are only a couple of hundred quid.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:17:21 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



You really meet them at trade counters. I once saw near a fight take place
over a trivial matter of opinion. The aggressive one was one of the Fred
Dibnah likes cast iron types.


His name wouldn't have been Ned Ludd would it?

Do you suspect a conspiracy?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

Which probably explains why people
have no faith in British plumbers! Did
they give any reasoning behind this
bizarre behaviour?

Yes. Some of it was bull****, but I wanted to hear it so I
didn't try and correct anything.

The main reason was lack of reliability and expensive repairs.
I can't argue with that -- I don't have the necessary data.
Bloke behind the counter said one of the manufacturers was on
fourth redesign of condensate drain in a year and third redesign
of something else and someone else's heat exchangers usually
failed just after warantee and cost over half the cost of the
boiler, and the tale of woe went on. Basically, after fitting,
they have to keep going back to sort the boiler, which gives the
fitter a bad name, so they don't fit them. I asked specifically
about the Keston (which I chose) and Ariston (which I looked at
because it was the smallest one made). There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.
They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why.

Some early Ariston combi's were not that hot. The Microgenus is great
little boiler and they give a 2 year guarantee with it.

If these fools had the intelligence to look around, they would see that some
companies give 3 to 5 years guarantees on all boilers and those with
stainless steel heat exchangers invariably give 5 years on the heat
exchanger. Glow Worm boilers are now predominantly stainless steel heat
exchangers.

You will find that the reason for many heat exchanger failures is that the
boiler was not installed or commissioned correctly. In many cases the
flowrate through the heat exchanger is far too low when TVRs close down.

Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't
have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also
assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the
lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.

Ed will clarify. There are many CORGI certificates. Some for gas
installation and some for boiler servicing. If plumber does a CORGI
installation course, he may not be licensed to touch the boiler innards.

Some gas cooker delivery drivers are CORGI registered, but only to connect
up a cooker with a flexible hose and do a soundness test. Ditto with
kitchen fitters who do gas hobs and ovens.

So, what are the issues?
I can believe that boilers based on conventional technology
which has matured over very many decades are probably more
reliable than boilers based on new technology.

Condensers have been around since the 1950s.



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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:17:21 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



You really meet them at trade counters. I once saw near a fight take
place
over a trivial matter of opinion. The aggressive one was one of the Fred
Dibnah likes cast iron types.

His name wouldn't have been Ned Ludd would it?

History paints the wrong picture of Ned. The Luddites were not
anti-advancement. What they were after was a system that would compensate
the 100,000s whose living would be wiped out by the new technology. This
was fair demand and the greedy factory owners, who were making millions, and
were to make even more, would not pay into this pot. The press obviously
sided with the establishment and painted the wrong picture of the Luddites
(nothing new there, and echos of the trade unionists jailed by Thatcher to
save 1,000s of jobs).

Ned Ludd was hanged. A sad and shameful era in our history.

Do you suspect a conspiracy?

A commie plot?



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On 31 Jul 2003 12:25:19 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



Yes. Some of it was bull****, but I wanted to hear it so I
didn't try and correct anything.

The main reason was lack of reliability and expensive repairs.
I can't argue with that -- I don't have the necessary data.
Bloke behind the counter said one of the manufacturers was on
fourth redesign of condensate drain in a year and third redesign
of something else and someone else's heat exchangers usually
failed just after warantee and cost over half the cost of the
boiler, and the tale of woe went on.

Certainly the heat exchangers are an expensive item, but perhaps this
is an issue of manufacturers building to a cost and price point.
When I was selecting, I eliminated all but stainless steel exchangers
for that reason.
I also asked each manufacturer for an extract from his spares
pricelist of the 10 most expensive items. That was quite revealing
and weeded a few vendors out.


Basically, after fitting,
they have to keep going back to sort the boiler, which gives the
fitter a bad name, so they don't fit them. I asked specifically
about the Keston (which I chose) and Ariston (which I looked at
because it was the smallest one made). There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.

I wonder how on earth they worked that one out.


They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why.
Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't
have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also
assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the
lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.

I think that's exactly it. IIRC from reading Keston's manual, they
supply the boiler preset and suggest that the fitter works out the gas
rate by timing the meter. They then go on to suggest that the CO2
level is measured to be sure, and of course that needs a flue gas
analyser. They then suggest that the fitter calls them if there are
problems.

On the MAN boilers the procedure requires a flue gas analyser since
the pressure test point that would normally be used on the burner side
of the gas valve is actually at negative pressure and not meaningful.
There is a procedure with a special test button that is used to allow
the CO2 level to be checked at minimum and maximum burn rates, there
being an adjuster for each. It is iterative, and takes a couple of
goes at each end to get right. The the CO level is checked at each
point.

I bought a flue gas analyser in a special introductory offer that BES
had last year. Even if I only use it once a year when servicing and
cleaning the boiler it pays for itself in two years.

I would have thought that any decent fitter should have an analyser as
well - there's really no excuse. Since one of their roles is to look
out for excessive CO emissions in an appliance, this is important
anyway for servicing. Looking at the flames is one thing, but AIUI
only shows relatively serious problems.


So, what are the issues?
I can believe that boilers based on conventional technology
which has matured over very many decades are probably more
reliable than boilers based on new technology. There seems
to be a problem (or at least a believed problem) in condensing
boilers not lasting out or very far past their warantee period
without expensive repairs required.
I suspect gas fitters have been using the same traditional
brands for condensing boilers which they use for conventional
boilers, and it seems to me those brands probably aren't the
best -- they certainly entered the game late.

Exactly. About 15 years late. The loyalty incentive programs are
pretty inviting as well.

Gas fitters are conservative (which is not unreasonable when
your salary depends on it) and/or gas fitters don't understand
condensing technology.

This is a shame.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.
They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why.
Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't
have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also
assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the
lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.

I'm not sure why heating engineers haven't got flue gas analysers
as according to the Screwfix book they're not that expensive. But
the guy who serviced our church boiler before we switched to a pair
of Kestons two years back hasn't and so far we've followed the
(unwritten) advice of a Keston engineer who said that if the boiler
was working leave well alone: the design is such that all soot etc
gets washed down the condensate drain.

We did have a minor problem with one, traced to a igniter that was
arcing down the ceramic insulator. The replacement cost £25, but
more to the point took a week. Not a problem in our case with twin
boilers but a plumber who had recommended one to a householder
(rather than them requesting it) would be getting a lot of stick
for doing so, this IMHO, the preference for the common names and
models with off the shelf parts.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.
They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why.
Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't
have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also
assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the
lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.

I'm not sure why heating engineers haven't got flue gas analysers
as according to the Screwfix book they're not that expensive. But
the guy who serviced our church boiler before we switched to a pair
of Kestons two years back hasn't and so far we've followed the
(unwritten) advice of a Keston engineer who said that if the boiler
was working leave well alone: the design is such that all soot etc
gets washed down the condensate drain.

We did have a minor problem with one, traced to a igniter that was
arcing down the ceramic insulator. The replacement cost £25, but
more to the point took a week. Not a problem in our case with twin
boilers but a plumber who had recommended one to a householder
(rather than them requesting it) would be getting a lot of stick
for doing so, this IMHO, the preference for the common names and
models with off the shelf parts.

A point here was that the common makes were not the best at condensing
technology, although changing fast. Ideal are good.



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Andy Hall wrote:


The Micromat is a well engineered and solid product with sophisticated
controls (all microprocessor based so no hardware reliability impact).
From an energy perspective it is saving between 25 and 30% as compared
to an old Glow Worm.

This is only a little less saving than a 'careful' [1] customer who I
installed a Keston25 for
earlier in the year. In his case the upgrade was from a conventional
flued Ideal Concord and very simple timer + plain copper cylinder with
(ragged jacket). Finished with
Grade 3 Part L cylinder (same size but with a fast coil).
All TRV (except bathroom as bypass).
Programmable Thermostat.

I think this finally put to rest the speculation about the maximum
savings acheivable by installing a condensing boiler.

[1] Notes and files gas bills etc.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

AIUI, Eco-Hometec mainly sell to self builders, who tend, quite often,
to hand pick components for the house and/or are sensitive to
eco-issues and to people looking for something better than the run of
the mill.

I spoke to several manufacturers when I was choosing a boiler.
More than one said to me that whilst condensing boilers are around
10% of the home market, they are pretty well all DIY installations.
Got into a conversation with some gas fitters at a trade counter.
They all said they would try and talk someone out of fitting a
condensing boiler, but if someone really wanted it, they would fit
it but would not commission or service it -- that had to be arranged
with the manufacturer.

At the merchant I use (Peter's Plumbing N11) we have had conversations
about which boilers have worked, gone wrong, were good value etc.

The opinion is that only the Keston boiler produces condensate. [I would
imaging the MAN would also].

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Andy Hall wrote:

On 31 Jul 2003 12:25:19 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:


Yes. Some of it was bull****, but I wanted to hear it so I

Basically, after fitting,
they have to keep going back to sort the boiler, which gives the
fitter a bad name, so they don't fit them. I asked specifically
about the Keston (which I chose) and Ariston (which I looked at
because it was the smallest one made). There was some agreement
that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones
which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers.
Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan
in it bull**** alert so it just used more electric instead.

I wonder how on earth they worked that one out.

Especially since the boiler is (should be) fused at 3A !


I would have thought that any decent fitter should have an analyser as
well - there's really no excuse. Since one of their roles is to look
out for excessive CO emissions in an appliance, this is important
anyway for servicing. Looking at the flames is one thing, but AIUI
only shows relatively serious problems.


Owner of a Kane 400 combustion analyser, and loads of 4xAA batteries ;-)

I am installing a Keston C25 in my own home right now.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:11:35 +0100, Ed Sirett
wrote:



At the merchant I use (Peter's Plumbing N11) we have had conversations
about which boilers have worked, gone wrong, were good value etc.

The opinion is that only the Keston boiler produces condensate. [I would
imaging the MAN would also].

Yes it does, by the bucketful. Not that it empties into a bucket I
should add, but through 22mm plastic and a trap to the waste.

I wonder whether modulating the pump as well as the burner has an
impact. The Keston, AIUI, does it by switching a Grundfos pump to
one of its three settings.

The MAN has a means of analogue or perhaps quasi-analogue control of
the pump (also Grundfos) from 35% minimum up to 100%. From the
display on the PC screen when the diagnostic software is run, the pump
rate adjusts to the firing rate, but they are not directly linked.
I've seen dT between flow and return on occasions of around 25
degrees, so even if the flow is approaching 80 degrees when it's
really cold or in HW mode, condensate is produced.
There is realtively little visible pluming, even on a cold day.
I wonder whether this has something to do with the cylindrical heat
exchanger and burner design.....

As I figure it, provided that the change from gaseous to liquid
state of the water happens either in the boiler or the part of the
flue within the building, the efficiency improvement should be
achieved since it is from the heat released by the latent heat of
condensation due to the change of phase. The visible "steam" is of
course water vapour and already in liquid phase from the latent heat
perspective.

Having it condense as water inside the boiler would appear to be more
of a convenience in that sense. Most installation guides that I have
seen talk about installing the flue such that it is at a slight angle,
sloping towards the boiler. I am told that this is mainly to avoid
acidic concentrate dripping down walls etc.

Perhaps this explains the "nuisance plume" aspect. If the heat
exchanger is rather too warm but nevertheless reasonably efficient and
the flue is cool enough, I would expect pluming to occur until the
water vapour re-evaporates. This would imply the best efficiencies
not being achieved, I think.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

There's no point in a 25% energy saving, if you have to replace it every
5-10 years. The replacement cost for a non diyer is probably £1000. There
seems to be a total lack of 10 year warranties!! Where are the projected
reliability figures? We know that Ideal Concords have a working life span of
20years under normal conditions, with only minor maintenance.

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

There's no point in a 25% energy saving,
if you have to replace it every
5-10 years.

Where do you get this notion that boilers have to be replaced every 5-10
years?

There seems to be a total lack of
10 year warranties!!

Lots of 3 and 5 though.

Where are the projected
reliability figures?

Don't you know as you are so confident on the lifespan of boilers.

We know that Ideal Concords have a working life span of
20years under normal conditions, with only minor maintenance.

The same for any boiler. Look at a Concord. There is sweet nothing inside.
All the kit is outside the case and that is what fails. So this inefficient
cast-iron lump just sit there, while the rest does the work.



---
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:45:09 +0100, "Capitol"
wrote:

There's no point in a 25% energy saving, if you have to replace it every
5-10 years.

That depends on your motivation. If it is purely economic and that
really were the motivation then that may be the case.
However, if you are also concerned about CO2 and NOx emissions and
fossil fuel consumption then it may be a factor.

There is no reason to assume that a well designed and made (and I
emphasise well designed and made) condensing boiler would be any less
reliable than a simplistic one with mechanical parts.

For example, the flame failure thermocouple used in most "simple"
boilers is an item that fails regularly. Granted they only cost £2 as
a part, but if professional labour is used to fit then that goes up to
at least £50 if not more. Bimetallic thermostats aren't that
brilliant either. Other components such as gas valves are of
similar technology and used in both cases.

That only leaves a fan, some thermal sensors, a microprocessor board
and the condensate drain arrangement. Provided the electronics are
of good design, using good quality components and not situated in a
hot part of the case, reliability should be high. There is very
little in a condensate drain.


The replacement cost for a non diyer is probably £1000. There
seems to be a total lack of 10 year warranties!! Where are the projected
reliability figures?

Condensing technology is only relatively new in the UK, and it is well
known that several manufacturers made a pig's ear of their early
designs.

However, in most of the rest of Europe, notably Holland and Germany,
condensing technology has been commonplace for 15 years.
German consumers are noted for their expectation of reliability and
good engineering so had condensing products been flakey for any length
of time, it would not have survived.

http://www.dvgw.de

http://www.dvgw.de/pdf/portrait_e.pdf

where you will note that there is a lot of emphasis on quality





We know that Ideal Concords have a working life span of
20years under normal conditions, with only minor maintenance.

Regards
Capitol



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl