Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a
better idea of what I want.
Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice
(number three didn't bother to turn up).
Given that a combi seems to be the way to go:
Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in
his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush
with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and
flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230.
Seems reasonable?

No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable. Non-condensing are a waste of
time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers
have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have
condensing. Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
and room 'stat for £115. Powerflush essential, and better than taking
rads off, £350. Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)
He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000
boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be
cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20
l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though
maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent
non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what
I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than
Ferroli?

Her indoors is starting to mutter about why pay a fortune to get rid
of the Glow worm gravity system which is simple, not to say primitive,
and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic, and the gas bills are
high. There's still the sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers
of course.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.

Rob




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Rob Bradley wrote:
Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a
better idea of what I want.
Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice
(number three didn't bother to turn up).
Given that a combi seems to be the way to go:
Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in
his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush
with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and
flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230.
Seems reasonable?

No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable. Non-condensing are a waste of
time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers
have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have
condensing. Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
and room 'stat for £115. Powerflush essential, and better than taking
rads off, £350. Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)
He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000
boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be
cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20
l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though
maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent
non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what
I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than
Ferroli?

Her indoors is starting to mutter about why pay a fortune to get rid
of the Glow worm gravity system which is simple, not to say primitive,
and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic, and the gas bills are
high. There's still the sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers
of course.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.


When I did the pay back calculations for a CH upgrades earlier this year
I compared about a dozen scenarios; combining the existing boiler, a new
non-condensing boiler or a new condensing boiler with adding weather
compensation, optimised start and insulating my house (walls and/or
loft).

[I based the results on the SAP worksheet which is close enough for the
ballpark figures I wanted to work with.]

I found that a new non-condensing boiler was never the most
cost-effective option. A condensing boiler + insulating the walls would
pay back in 22 years (gas prices have risen since which will reduce this
period). This is clearly at or above the expected lifespan of a boiler
depending on the quality of the item chosen.

Over all other timescales it was never the most economic option to
replace my existing boiler, which is 15 years old and works perfectly
well, albeit rather inefficiently.

I concluded that my best bet was to keep the old one going until either
it died, or I needed a new boiler for some other reason.

Neil

"Rob Bradley" wrote in message
...
Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a
better idea of what I want.
Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice
(number three didn't bother to turn up).
Given that a combi seems to be the way to go:
Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in
his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush
with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and
flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230.
Seems reasonable?

No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable. Non-condensing are a waste of
time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers
have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have
condensing.

Tosh. 90% of the che controls are identical to all boilers.

Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,

Sounds good.

and room 'stat for £115.

Room stat? a Honeywell CM67 is only £50. Tell him to put one of those in.

Powerflush essential, and better than taking
rads off, £350. Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)

He gets commission.

He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000
boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be
cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20
l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

No. He can if he does not charge you.

I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though
maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent
non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what
I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than
Ferroli?

Ferroli are OK. They are not unreliable. Some fitters get discounts for
pushing certain boilers.

Her indoors is starting to mutter
about why pay a fortune to get rid
of the Glow worm gravity system
which is simple, not to say primitive,
and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic,
and the gas bills are high. There's still the
sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers
of course.

You are better all around getting a new boiler and getting the system sorted
out. You save approx 40% on fuel.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.

Go no. 1, and specify a condensing boiler.

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
Rob Bradley wrote:
Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a
better idea of what I want.
Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice
(number three didn't bother to turn up).
Given that a combi seems to be the way to go:
Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in
his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush
with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and
flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230.
Seems reasonable?

No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable. Non-condensing are a waste of
time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers
have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have
condensing. Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
and room 'stat for £115. Powerflush essential, and better than taking
rads off, £350. Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)
He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000
boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be
cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20
l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though
maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent
non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what
I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than
Ferroli?

Her indoors is starting to mutter about why pay a fortune to get rid
of the Glow worm gravity system which is simple, not to say primitive,
and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic, and the gas bills are
high. There's still the sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers
of course.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.


When I did the pay back calculations for a CH upgrades earlier this year
I compared about a dozen scenarios; combining the existing boiler, a new
non-condensing boiler or a new condensing boiler with adding weather
compensation, optimised start and insulating my house (walls and/or
loft).

[I based the results on the SAP worksheet which is close enough for the
ballpark figures I wanted to work with.]

I found that a new non-condensing boiler was never the most
cost-effective option. A condensing boiler + insulating the walls would
pay back in 22 years (gas prices have risen since

By 12%.

which will reduce this
period). This is clearly at or above
the expected lifespan of a boiler
depending on the quality of the item
chosen.

Fuel will always go up in price. Payback periods are always difficult to
asses, but 22 years sound way off mark.

Over all other timescales it was never the most economic option to
replace my existing boiler, which is 15 years old and works perfectly
well, albeit rather inefficiently.

I concluded that my best bet was to keep the old one going until either
it died, or I needed a new boiler for some other reason.

His system is sludged up and his hot water is pathetic. He need major
surgery. This is not an economic exercise. So, he may as well go for a
condensing boiler.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:05:32 +0100, "Rob Bradley"
wrote:

Thanks to all who replied to my previous posts, I'm slowly getting a
better idea of what I want.
Unfortunately, the two quotations I've had gave opposing advice
(number three didn't bother to turn up).
Given that a combi seems to be the way to go:
Heating engineer no.1 says: Ferroli F30, non-condensing, reliable in
his experience. Fitted, tanks etc removed from old system, power flush
with hired equipment (if I want, but would prefer to remove rads and
flush outside), should take about one day with his mate, cost £1230.
Seems reasonable?

The price is reasonable, and the flushing method - not sure about the
boiler because it is very low efficiency.



No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable.

Vaillant make good products, but not the *only* good product. He
probably would say that anything else is unreliable.


Non-condensing are a waste of
time because the Government is likely to reduce the time manufacturers
have to stock spares for old boilers so we all have to have
condensing.

AIUI, manufacturers have to agree to stock spares for at least ten
years after date of last manufacture to get a gas council approval for
the boiler.

Clearly the government (not even Rocky) can reasonably legislate about
spares for older products being made unavailable. I think that this
guy is doing some wishful thinking.

Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
and room 'stat for £115.

Replacing valves could make sense if the system is oldish. Running a
sealed system could make them weep. I replaced mine when I
refurbished my system at the same time as taking the radiators outside
to be flushed. They are cheap to do at the time and a pain
afterwards.


Powerflush essential, and better than taking
rads off, £350.

It's an alternative, but not necessarily better. Some form of flushing
is essential, and there should be a strainer fitted to the return to
the boiler to filter out any remaining crud.
£350 is high.


Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)

Simple. He gets something from BG to sell the contract.

He seems to be trying it on at £3292 to install a roughly £1000
boiler. He's a local (2 man) trader, but surely even BG would be
cheaper? At least he tested the mains water pressure and flow (20
l/min) which is more than no.1 did.

BG probably more.




Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

His employer should be registered (you can check that with CORGI).
Then check whether this guy is listed under their registration.



I'm leaning towards a condensing combi as more up to date, though
maybe there are bargains to be had if stocks of obsolescent
non-condensing boilers have to be shifted before April 2005. From what
I've read here, Vaillant or Worcester Bosch might be safer bets than
Ferroli?

Vaillant and WB are both good products but would likely be more than
the Ferroli.




Her indoors is starting to mutter about why pay a fortune to get rid
of the Glow worm gravity system which is simple, not to say primitive,
and reliable, but the DHW flow is pathetic, and the gas bills are
high. There's still the sludge to shift whatever we do about boilers
of course.

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.

Another strategy might be to wait until after next April.
Competition on condensing products should reduce prices a bit.

It would be nice if you could get the kind of price point of No. 1,
with a better boiler and be sure of CORGI registration.

No. 2. is a rip-off IMHO, especially as there are a few misleading
comments.




Rob




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..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

So, three options: no.1, possible. No.2, er, no, I think not. Or,
stick as we are until the Glow worm conks out and go through this all
over again.

Can quotee number 1 be persuaded to fit a condensing boiler? That might be
your best option.

Christian.

"Rob Bradley" wrote in message
...

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

Just to add my comments on this. I had the same situation when refitting my
bathroom. Installer was a friend of a friend etc. The job went badly wrong
but luckily there was no ill feeling caused between my friend and myself.
Personally, in future I would always go with someone of no relation as if
there was a problem and god forbid court action etc this is likely to cause
a lot of ill feeling.

Not saying you will have a problem but perhaps something to consider.

CM.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:42:08 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:





No.2 says: Vaillant ecoMax 835E condensing, the only boiler he
recommends. Ferroli are very unreliable.

I think that's a little unfair on Ferroli there are plenty of others I
would like to fit less (Alpha, Biasi, Halstead...)


Vaillant make good products, but not the *only* good product. He
probably would say that anything else is unreliable.

Quite pricey for this particular bit of kit. Ideal, BW and others could be
in the frame.




Boiler £3292. 2-3 days work. Discount if I take out a
BG service contract.(Why?)

Simple. He gets something from BG to sell the contract.


I think his time scale is realistic. However his prices are in the BG
region. I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.


He said the gas supply was OK, but it could do with re-routing at
least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a
corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there,
then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go
under the floor, I think. Why do you say it would "almost certainly"
need replacing?


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html




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IMM wrote:
"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
Fuel will always go up in price. Payback periods are always difficult
to asses, but 22 years sound way off mark.

It's going to be expensive to fit a condensing boiler in my house...

I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

Why would the gas supply "almost certainly"
need replacing?
He said it was OK, it's 22mm pipe, but could do with re-routing at
least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a
corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there,
then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go
under the floor, I think.

Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
Sounds good. (IMM)

He said it's because they're all "bull nose" fittings to the radiator,
and olive compression joints are better. I replaced several just
recently with drain cock type valves and I don't remember seeing
anything about them being unsuitable for pressurized systems?


Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

His employer should be registered (you can check that with CORGI).
Then check whether this guy is listed under their registration. (
..andy)
No. He can if he does not charge you. (IMM)

Corgi say he can't do private work even if he is listed under his
employer's registration. As far as I'm concerned that would make him
qualified to do the work but it seems it would be illegal. Maybe there
would be insurance implications if anything went wrong.
I like the idea of him not charging, but I don't think he would!

Thanks everybody

Rob




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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:19:53 +0100, "Rob Bradley"
wrote:

I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

Why would the gas supply "almost certainly"
need replacing?
He said it was OK, it's 22mm pipe, but could do with re-routing at
least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a
corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there,
then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go
under the floor, I think.

If you want to look it up, there's an application note on running gas
pipes which deals with lengths, counts of elbows etc. and carrying
capacity on the Copper Development Association web site.

If the boiler size is being increased it may be that with a long run
with lots of bends that the pressure drop becomes too much.


Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
Sounds good. (IMM)

He said it's because they're all "bull nose" fittings to the radiator,
and olive compression joints are better. I replaced several just
recently with drain cock type valves and I don't remember seeing
anything about them being unsuitable for pressurized systems?

They are fine, although if there's any corrosion or poor manufacture
there may be some seepage. This could potentially be fixed with
liquid PTFE. Lockshields, IME, have more of a tendency to leak
around the spindle. Sometimes that can be fixed by tightening the
gland nut. I had one or two that tended to seep so simply
replaced the whole lot as I took radiators outside to be flushed.




Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

His employer should be registered (you can check that with CORGI).
Then check whether this guy is listed under their registration. (
.andy)
No. He can if he does not charge you. (IMM)

Corgi say he can't do private work even if he is listed under his
employer's registration. As far as I'm concerned that would make him
qualified to do the work but it seems it would be illegal. Maybe there
would be insurance implications if anything went wrong.
I like the idea of him not charging, but I don't think he would!

I think that that is on dubious ground. Clearly some money is going
to be paid to him even if the invoice loads the cost into the
materials and shows the labour as "free". He is still doing the
work in a professional capacity, and if he does not have an individual
registration technically he is breaking the law, even though
qualified to do the work. If he's employed, then it is deemed that
the employer is responsible for supervision; if self employed, he has
his own registration and is responsible himself. If you placed the
business through his employer, then that is clear, but work on the
side falls out of both categories.

In practice, nothing is any more likely to go wrong than if firm 2 did
the work. However, in the event of something bad happening, it does
not appear that the law would differentiate on method of payment.

The other aspect is what happens as and when you sell the house and
you are asked that the installation was done by a registered
installer.

You can look at the statutory instrument

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/s...8/19982451.htm

Section 3 and make up your own mind on that one.

One possible way around it is to have him do the work, and then ask a
separate (full CORGI covered) fitter to do a Landlord's inspection and
certificate, as though you were letting the house. Whether this
flies legally is a question, and I can find no evidence that it has
ever been tested in court.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Rob Bradley" wrote in message
...
I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

Why would the gas supply "almost certainly"
need replacing?
He said it was OK, it's 22mm pipe, but could do with re-routing at
least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a
corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there,
then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go
under the floor, I think.

Need to replace all lockshield valves 'cos they'll leak,
Sounds good. (IMM)

He said it's because they're all "bull nose" fittings to the radiator,
and olive compression joints are better. I replaced several just
recently with drain cock type valves and I don't remember seeing
anything about them being unsuitable for pressurized systems?

At this stage it is better to replace all rad valves. They are now old.

Installer no.1 is the brother of a friend doing the work in his spare
time as he works for someone else. He isn't Corgi registered in his
own name, so would it be legal for him to commission the new boiler?

His employer should be registered (you can check that with CORGI).
Then check whether this guy is listed under their registration. (
.andy)
No. He can if he does not charge you. (IMM)

Corgi say he can't do private work even if he is listed under his
employer's registration. As far as I'm concerned that would make him
qualified to do the work but it seems it would be illegal. Maybe there
would be insurance implications if anything went wrong.
I like the idea of him not charging, but I don't think he would!

Thanks everybody

Rob




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He said it's because they're all "bull nose" fittings to the radiator,
and olive compression joints are better. I replaced several just
recently with drain cock type valves and I don't remember seeing
anything about them being unsuitable for pressurized systems?

At this stage it is better to replace all rad valves. They are now old.

It won't be necessary if they have been recently replaced. I use drain cock
types and my system is pressurised.

Christian.

At this stage it is better to replace all rad valves. They are now old.

Typical IMM =) Quality doesn't come into it.

Wouldn't be hard to pressure test the pipes, valves, and rads etc once
the old boiler is removed.

cheers,
Pete.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:54:43 +0100, Rob Bradley wrote:

I would say even in London and with replacing the gas supply (almost
certainly needed) that £2500 would be nearer the mark.


He said the gas supply was OK, but it could do with re-routing at
least, because it comes into the bedroom, along the wall and round a
corner then through into the bathroom and along the wall in there,
then through into the kitchen where the boiler is. Much better to go
under the floor, I think. Why do you say it would "almost certainly"
need replacing?


With a 37kW boiler then the pipe run has to be shortish and smooth for
22mm. Also I made the (reasonable) assumption that you existing boiler
may well be rated at around 15-20kW and (wrongly assumed) the pipe might
only be 15mm.
The "almost certainly" is based on myexperience of how often I have to
upgrade the gas pipe when goiung from a conventional boiler to a combi.
In this case the matter is more likely 50:50 with a 37kW boiler and
"almost certainly" OK for 24kW.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html