It's the first I've heard about burying cables 50mm. How many builders
or electricians do you think have complied with these regulations?
You'd be chasing half the brick wall out and that's not going to be
easy without some heavy duty machinery and surely would compromise
strength in the wall?

It's a sad story but I can only see one person who is to blame here
and that is the guy who fitted the rack without checking for cables.

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:

Another interesting question is woulp part P make any difference.

If this was not a "New Circuit" it wouldnt have needed any checking
anyway!

Yes it would: all electrical work in kitchens and bathrooms will
notifiable under Part P - see

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou.../page/odpm_bre
g_029960.pdf
Table 1.

--
Andy

So is everyone buying up reels of T&E in the old colours so we can avoid
paying a "professional" electrician for the next few years at least?

Bob

In article , "Bob"
says...
snip
So is everyone buying up reels of T&E in the old colours so we can avoid
paying a "professional" electrician for the next few years at least?

Old colours?

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Bob"
says...
snip
So is everyone buying up reels of T&E in the old colours so we can avoid
paying a "professional" electrician for the next few years at least?

Old colours?

I understood that when the regs come in, the wiring colours would be
changing, enabling inspectors to identify new work.

Bob wrote:

I understood that when the regs come in, the wiring colours would be
changing, enabling inspectors to identify new work.

It's not quite as deliberately coordinated as that, I don't think, but
it is suggestive/indicative, since the changes occur within a year of
each other. "The New Colours" meaning for ornery T&E a change to brown &
blue for L and N respectively, to match the much-loved code for flexes.
You remember - the one the wags tried to make us remember as "ah, well,
that dark brown's the same colour as the earth, so it must be for E; the
bright blue's electric-blue, innit, so that'll be L where all the
electrickery comes from; and the stripey one can't make up its mind what
colour to be, so it's a middle-of-the-road thing, which must mean
Neutral'. [No, that's NOT what the colours really mean. It's a *joke*,
alright?]

Stefek

Out of interest, does anyone know just how many people get electrocuted in
the home each year in this country? Is it really enough to warrent these
new regulations?

Andy Hall will be along in a little while with chapter and verse; but if
I remember the posts around the time the "Part P" stuff was being
mooted, he tracked down the UK figures. Deaths from fixed wiring were in
the low single-digits; total electrocutions - mainly from faulty
appliances - were in the tens.

OK, you made me do it (fx: googling). Over at
http://www.rospa.com/product/pdfs/electrical.pdf
there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there were
5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998, and 14
more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally, around 25
deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by "faulty electrical
equipment and wiring" - no breakdown in this source of appliances versus
fixed wiring, sadly. Each one's a personal tragedy, clearly; but the
overall level strikes me as low, and there would seem to be more to be
gained from looking at appliance safety than the fixed wiring which Part
P sets out to regulate and inspecturate...

Stefek

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Bob"
says...
snip
So is everyone buying up reels of T&E in the old colours so we can
avoid
paying a "professional" electrician for the next few years at least?

Old colours?

I understood that when the regs come in, the wiring colours would be
changing, enabling inspectors to identify new work.


On Saturday - 9 Oct - I needed to buy a reel of T&E; the
trade-counter distributor said 'we haven't _had_ any
new colour cable yet': presumably all installations in
the area are red/black!

--

Brian

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:
Another interesting question is woulp part P make any difference.

No, but the new Part Q requiring all plate racks to be wooden will
g.

More sensible to have plastic screws. ;-)

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
StealthUK wrote:
It's the first I've heard about burying cables 50mm. How many builders
or electricians do you think have complied with these regulations?

Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall. I can't think of
any real reason ever to do it - apart from to 'save' cable.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
TimD wrote:
Very sad story, but no doubt will be seized upon as justification for
changes to the Electrical Wiring Regulations (Part P)

Possibly. However, it would be very difficult to check for depth of wiring
after the installation was complete. And extremely time consuming to check
the route of every cable with a detector - and not that reliably either.

The existing regs if observed would have prevented this. But no regs can
prevent bodging - unless they provide for a thorough independant
inspection.

Made me think to invest in a good wiring detector for drilling holes
etc.

Or protecting with a RCD - although I know this can cause problems with
kitchen appliances.

No it shouldn't, not if they are working as they should, and its a
useful early warning device if they aren't.....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the fact is the dickhead D-I-Y er put a screw through a cable, and
didn't earth the appliance.

You'd earth a kitchen tool rack?

Hey presto. What happened to te RCD, and all teh earths on everything
else?

Having just changed my CU to a split load one, I've not included the
kitchen ring on the RCD side - due to possible leakage from the various
heating elements in appliances.

Yes but if their leaking there more likely than not going to fail before
much longer, unless its a point close to the neutral end of the element.
And if that's the case more current is leaking via the safety earth
where it didnae oughta!...


--
Tony Sayer

"Stefek Zaba" wrote in message
...
The builders may be at fault to some degree, but the man who installed
the
rack, when cable detectors have been around for along time now, is the
culprit. I doubt the builders would be roasted.
Except that you are supposed to install vertically from fittings or more
than 50mm deep for the precise reason to avoid electrocution when fixing
to
the wall. They must bear partial responsibility.

The Standard report is quite detailed, and supports Christian's point.
The original fitters were the primary cause of this death, by cavalier
routing of a mains cable which "meandered across the wall instead of
being fitted in strict horizontal or vertical lines".

I wonder just how "meandering" it was actually. Nobody deliberately does
that - it uses more cable and takes longer to plaster over to start with.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
TimD wrote:
Very sad story, but no doubt will be seized upon as justification for
changes to the Electrical Wiring Regulations (Part P)

Or protecting with a RCD - although I know this can cause problems with
kitchen appliances.

???

Perhaps the kitchen appliance causes problem with the RCD but I would say
that's the appliance that's out of spec. I've always had everything on an
RCD and never had more than a couple of annoying trips. Last one was the
washing machine literally exploding inside (a triac had had enough of life)
and as we were out I'm glad it was fully protected as the 30A kitchen trip
didn't cutout.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall. I can't think of
any real reason ever to do it - apart from to 'save' cable.

Quite true; but penny-pinching fools do exist. A previous boss of mine
was surprised to find 2.5mmsq for the kitchen ring as he drilled a
largish hole for a tumble dryer vent; the cable ran diagonally. This was
a new build on a not-that-cheap estate. A bit of popping round a couple
of neighbours with a cable detector he'd bought (after the fact!)
established that the electrical contractor had decided the savings in
cable in this design of house was worthwhile - so while one of us doing
one job at home (or an honest local jobbing sparks doing a one-off)
wouldn't be tempted to cut corners [sic] this way, the economics look
different when you're planning wiring runs for tens of "carbon copy"
houses on a new estate. And for all I know the diagonal run may've been
regs-compliant anyway, if the cable were reliably held in place at a
depth of over 5cm...

Stefek

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I think we just need to accept that just as driving cars mean that
sometimes
people will get run over, so electricity in the home will sometimes lead
to
electrocution. In both cases the usefulness of the killer is deemed to
outweigh the loss of life it causes.

Certainly there are rules things that could imposed to reduce the toll -
30
mph everywhere maximum speed for a car, visible conduits for wiring - but
those kind of limits would be unacceptable to most people.

Out of interest, does anyone know just how many people get electrocuted in
the home each year in this country? Is it really enough to warrent these
new regulations?

A few get electrocuted but mostly by cuting through mower cables and
suchlike. The OPDM report did sort of admit that these changes in regs may
not save any lives on an average year.

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
On 12 Oct 2004 01:17:50 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(TimD) randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

In the Evening Standard last night.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...vening%20Stand
ard

Very sad story, but no doubt will be seized upon as justification for
changes to the Electrical Wiring Regulations (Part P)

The wiring (by the report) wasn't installed correctly, but how is a
BCO or any electrical inspector to know that after it's been covered
over? Admittedly, probably the route of the wiring may be easy to
spot or detect, but what about the depth?

I spot a market opportunity for a 3D cable wiring sensing system :-)

On 12-Oct-2004, MM wrote:

Could it be that all school children
need to be exposed to, say, an electric fence at least once during
their education?

Some of them should be exposed to an electric chair at least once during
their education.

Steve

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:48:45 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:

I think we just need to accept that just as driving cars mean that sometimes
people will get run over, so electricity in the home will sometimes lead to
electrocution. In both cases the usefulness of the killer is deemed to
outweigh the loss of life it causes.

Sadly, I think we are no longer in a commom sense time.

Todays Idiocy was being told that the local primary can no longer
display school photos on the internal notice board in the school hall.

Every parent is required to agree to their childs image being included
in any photo. Half a dozen always refuse, so the school photo is
ended.

"EricP" wrote in message
...

snip

Sadly, I think we are no longer in a commom sense time.

Todays Idiocy was being told that the local primary can no longer
display school photos on the internal notice board in the school hall.

Every parent is required to agree to their childs image being included
in any photo. Half a dozen always refuse, so the school photo is
ended.


Don't know the veracity of this ... told it by a man that knew a man ...
Schools have a requirement to have a photograph of each child
on its file ... this costs money ... so;- photographers come into
school and produce the 'file' photo for free ... then recoup the
money by selling copies to parents, grand-parents plus the
siblings' photos, plus the school photos ...funny old world!

--

Brian

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:13:46 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Bob wrote:

I understood that when the regs come in, the wiring colours would be
changing, enabling inspectors to identify new work.

It's not quite as deliberately coordinated as that, I don't think, but
it is suggestive/indicative, since the changes occur within a year of
each other. "The New Colours" meaning for ornery T&E a change to brown &
blue for L and N respectively, to match the much-loved code for flexes.
You remember - the one the wags tried to make us remember as "ah, well,
that dark brown's the same colour as the earth, so it must be for E; the
bright blue's electric-blue, innit, so that'll be L where all the
electrickery comes from; and the stripey one can't make up its mind what
colour to be, so it's a middle-of-the-road thing, which must mean
Neutral'. [No, that's NOT what the colours really mean. It's a *joke*,
alright?]

Stefek

You can buy new coloured cable now, so it would be legitimate to say
that you did the work before the introduction of Part P.

Considering the practicalities, it seems to me that there are three
scenarios where the issue comes up:

- new and additional building work involving a building control notice
or application. An inspection gets done.

- something bad happens such as this Darwin situation, or a fire etc.
Officialdom gets involved and it's determined that the householder
DIYed the job and it wasn't inspected. Really all that has changed
is that an offence will have been committed.

- the house is on the market and the issue comes up with solicitor'q
questions. Thi s is a moot point, because the purchaser will
probably get an electrical inspection done anyway.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:58:09 GMT, EricP wrote:

Sadly, I think we are no longer in a commom sense time.

It does seem to be on the wane...

Todays Idiocy was being told that the local primary can no longer
display school photos on the internal notice board in the school
hall.

Every parent is required to agree to their childs image being
included in any photo. Half a dozen always refuse, so the school
photo is ended.

I can see some circumstances where parents might object to photos of
their child, anything from belief system to hiding from abusive
partner.

However it's just pigging stupid of the school to deprive the rest of
the school of the photo, simply ensure that those pupils that cannot
be in the photo aren't. Or is that not "politicaly correct" as it
singles those pupils out as "different", bah, stuff 'em they had a
choice.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:30:28 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Out of interest, does anyone know just how many people get electrocuted in
the home each year in this country? Is it really enough to warrent these
new regulations?

Andy Hall will be along in a little while with chapter and verse; but if
I remember the posts around the time the "Part P" stuff was being
mooted, he tracked down the UK figures. Deaths from fixed wiring were in
the low single-digits; total electrocutions - mainly from faulty
appliances - were in the tens.

OK, you made me do it (fx: googling). Over at
http://www.rospa.com/product/pdfs/electrical.pdf
there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there were
5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998, and 14
more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally, around 25
deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by "faulty electrical
equipment and wiring" - no breakdown in this source of appliances versus
fixed wiring, sadly. Each one's a personal tragedy, clearly; but the
overall level strikes me as low, and there would seem to be more to be
gained from looking at appliance safety than the fixed wiring which Part
P sets out to regulate and inspecturate...

Stefek

That sums it up pretty well. Andrew Gabriel also did a lot of
research and the conclusion was that the vast majority of electrical
injuries in the home were from faulty portable appliances, with fixed
wiring related issues very much smaller.

If set in the context of all accidents in the home, electricity
related ones pale into insignificance.

Several of us wrote to our MPs at the time and kept a close eye on
developments reported on the ODPM web site, among other places.

The figures and comments were massaged to de-emphasise anything based
on statistics and anyhting dissenting from what had almost certainly
been decided by Rocky and his sidekick Raynsford.

MPs making enquiries received waffly duplicated letters which said
nothing apart from the party line.

The risk assessment that was done focussed more on anecdotal opinion
from interested parties such as the IEE, NICEIC and others with
something to gain economically or politically.

Little or no tthought was given to enforcability, and of course in
practice this is unenforcable apart from in certain defined
circumstances.

There will still be electrical DIY and there will still be people
doing electrical work who are unregistered.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
news

"EricP" wrote in message
...

snip

Sadly, I think we are no longer in a commom sense time.

Todays Idiocy was being told that the local primary can no longer
display school photos on the internal notice board in the school hall.

Every parent is required to agree to their childs image being included
in any photo. Half a dozen always refuse, so the school photo is
ended.


Don't know the veracity of this ... told it by a man that knew a man ...
Schools have a requirement to have a photograph of each child
on its file

Certain religions don't allow the taking of photographs so I assume this
overrides this requirement.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:30:28 +0100, Stefek Zaba wrote:

there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there
were 5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998,
and 14 more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally,
around 25 deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by
"faulty electrical equipment and wiring"

44 on average, not many. How many get killed on the roads each year?

FX:Google Figures for 2003:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pns/DisplayPN.cgi?pn_id=2004_0125

"3,508 people were killed on Britains roads in 2003, 2 per cent more
than in 2002. The number of people seriously injured fell to 33,707, 6
per cent lower than in 2002. Total casualties in 2003 were 290,607, 4
percent fewer than in 2002;"

So not far short of 10 people *per day* are killed on UK roads. I
don't see any new regulations coming in to enforce higher driving
standards or banning the general public from driving completely,
allowing only those who are members of a closed shop body to drive.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:53:06 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall. I can't think
of any real reason ever to do it - apart from to 'save' cable.

Or time when the the bit of cable they have just threaded through 6
joists is to short by 12"...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The inspector reported that;
A two-and-a-half inch black mark with yellow bruising was found on her
left ankle, indicating the spot where the electricity had left her
body and travelled to the dishwasher,
I would not be happy to agree with this statment
Electric shock victims suffer burns not brusing
Most people who are shock victims survive because of muscle
retraction,
Also, The kitchen fitter did not break any law in wiring the hood as
there are non
Jim

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:45:04 GMT, Brian Sharrock wrote:

On Saturday - 9 Oct - I needed to buy a reel of T&E; the
trade-counter distributor said 'we haven't _had_ any new colour
cable yet':

CEF, Penrith said the opposite last month, new colours only. After I
bought a reel of 2.5mm and spotted it was new colour.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"EricP" wrote in message
...

snip

Sadly, I think we are no longer in a commom sense time.

Todays Idiocy was being told that the local primary can no longer
display school photos on the internal notice board in the school
hall.

Every parent is required to agree to their childs image being
included in any photo. Half a dozen always refuse, so the school
photo is ended.


Don't know the veracity of this ... told it by a man that knew a man
... Schools have a requirement to have a photograph of each child
on its file ... this costs money ... so;- photographers come into
school and produce the 'file' photo for free ... then recoup the
money by selling copies to parents, grand-parents plus the
siblings' photos, plus the school photos ...funny old world!

When we were kids it was always sort of implied that the standard good
quality school photo was needed for the media and police for the "school kid
missing, here's what he looks like" situations. Nowadays when you see a
missing person on the telly, it's often a zoomed-in crop of a holiday snap
that doesn't clearly show the person involved, makes you wonder if there was
some truth in what we were told after all.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:30:28 +0100, Stefek Zaba wrote:

there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there
were 5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998,
and 14 more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally,
around 25 deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by
"faulty electrical equipment and wiring"

44 on average, not many. How many get killed on the roads each year?

FX:Google Figures for 2003:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pns/DisplayPN.cgi?pn_id=2004_0125

"3,508 people were killed on Britains roads in 2003, 2 per cent more
than in 2002. The number of people seriously injured fell to 33,707, 6
per cent lower than in 2002. Total casualties in 2003 were 290,607, 4
percent fewer than in 2002;"

So not far short of 10 people *per day* are killed on UK roads.

What amazes me is when less than 10 people get killed in a very rare train
crash, the whole system gets suspended for months.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall.


No shortage of those in this world !

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall.

I've seen it done several times, from the cooker switch to the final
emerging point of the cooker cable to the cooker.

Feckin' potentially lethal, and that was done by sparks.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:37:07 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Only a fool would run cables diagonally across a wall.

I've seen it done once. It was on one of those TV DIY programs that
involves Linda Barker screeching. A spur wired diagonally from the socket
positioned about 4ft above the floor in the middle of a wall down to the
bottom right to provide an outlet for a washing machine.

Heh. Was MDF involved by any chance?

Timbo

On 12 Oct 2004 (Jim) wrote:

The inspector reported that;
A two-and-a-half inch black mark with yellow bruising was found on her
left ankle, indicating the spot where the electricity had left her
body and travelled to the dishwasher,
I would not be happy to agree with this statment
Electric shock victims suffer burns not brusing
Most people who are shock victims survive because of muscle
retraction,

Muscles contract. If there are two muscles working in opposition the
stronger one wins so for example your hand will grip rather than
opening. If you touch something live with the back of your hand and you'll
be thrown off: if you grab hold of it you won't be able to let go. If you
get a shock you can quite easily hit or kick something, including
yourself, or throw yourself against the nearest hard object.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

On 12 Oct 2004 "Bob" wrote:

Certainly there are rules things that could imposed to reduce the
toll - 30 mph everywhere maximum speed for a car, visible conduits
for wiring - but those kind of limits would be unacceptable to most
people.

AFAIAA most road casualities occur in 30mph or lower limits.

I'd quite like to have visible trunking for sockets, though conduit
would be a bit unsightly for lights and switches.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:54:07 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:


Is 5cm deep really the recommended depth? I tend to just go as deep as
the plaster is. Once I hit brick that is it.

And is this just a recommendation or compulsory.


For cables not running in the "standard" routes, it's mandated by the
Regs: 5cm (2 of your earth inches) is what the regs-writers consider to
be deeper than a casual picture-hook or small-fitting-wallplug will go.
If the cable runs in the "standard" routes (once again: a 6-inch/15cm
band vertically and horizontally from each visible fitting, and a
similar-width band around the top and side BUT NOT BOTTOM corners of
each room), the 5cm depth is *not* required.

The other approved way of running cables in the non-standard routes is
to provide hefty additional protection: in practice that would mean
serious metal (which would need to be earthed), such as heavy-duty
conduit or trunking. Galvanised capping isn't protection enough - it's
easily penetrated by a nail (which is how you usually fix it!).

Isn't running it on the surface where its obvious to everyone also
allowed? And what does a 2" trench in a wall do to it's structural
integrity?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:47:33 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Well the fact is the dickhead D-I-Y er put a screw through a cable, and
didn't earth the appliance.

Not quite: they put a screw through a cable, but it wasn't holding an
Appliance, just a bit of metalwork (some fancy-pantsy chromed cutlery
rack, mfg cost 2 squid, yours-at-Heals-for-only-40-notes or some such).
And it was the all-too-effective earthing of a nearby appliance which
provided a low-impedance path to earth for the fatal current.

Bloody 'ell, you've just reminded me that my daughter has one of these
metal racks above her hob, and below the cupboard where an extractor fan
can be fitted. And I do recall seeing a fused outlet in the back of the
cupboard. I'll be round there with my meters and detectors tomorrow to
see if its feed is anywhere near the screws!!!

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:35:30 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:



A few get electrocuted but mostly by cuting through mower cables and
suchlike. The OPDM report did sort of admit that these changes in regs may
not save any lives on an average year.

Actually they will make things worse. By making minor improvements -
like adding extra sockets - much more expensive for most people they
will encourage the use of extension sockets, trailing leads etc with
the consequent increase in risk from both falling over them and
fires.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:13:46 +0100, Stefek Zaba

- the house is on the market and the issue comes up with solicitor'q
questions. Thi s is a moot point, because the purchaser will
probably get an electrical inspection done anyway.



Ah well, an inspection can't see what's under the plaster anyway, and
there's no way the council will have a wiring diagram for every house, so I
guess we can carry on as normal.

I really don't need to be paying over the odds for some muppet to come round
and make a bad job of wiring my house when I can do it better myself.

Bob

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:30:28 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Out of interest, does anyone know just how many people get electrocuted
in
the home each year in this country? Is it really enough to warrent
these
new regulations?

Andy Hall will be along in a little while with chapter and verse; but if
I remember the posts around the time the "Part P" stuff was being
mooted, he tracked down the UK figures. Deaths from fixed wiring were in
the low single-digits; total electrocutions - mainly from faulty
appliances - were in the tens.

OK, you made me do it (fx: googling). Over at
http://www.rospa.com/product/pdfs/electrical.pdf
there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there were
5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998, and 14
more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally, around 25
deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by "faulty electrical
equipment and wiring" - no breakdown in this source of appliances versus
fixed wiring, sadly. Each one's a personal tragedy, clearly; but the
overall level strikes me as low, and there would seem to be more to be
gained from looking at appliance safety than the fixed wiring which Part
P sets out to regulate and inspecturate...

Stefek

That sums it up pretty well. Andrew Gabriel also did a lot of
research and the conclusion was that the vast majority of electrical
injuries in the home were from faulty portable appliances, with fixed
wiring related issues very much smaller.

If set in the context of all accidents in the home, electricity
related ones pale into insignificance.

Several of us wrote to our MPs at the time and kept a close eye on
developments reported on the ODPM web site, among other places.

The figures and comments were massaged to de-emphasise anything based
on statistics and anyhting dissenting from what had almost certainly
been decided by Rocky and his sidekick Raynsford.

MPs making enquiries received waffly duplicated letters which said
nothing apart from the party line.

The risk assessment that was done focussed more on anecdotal opinion
from interested parties such as the IEE, NICEIC and others with
something to gain economically or politically.

Little or no tthought was given to enforcability, and of course in
practice this is unenforcable apart from in certain defined
circumstances.

There will still be electrical DIY and there will still be people
doing electrical work who are unregistered.


This is a sign that the safety nazis must be bored - there's nothing big
left for them to deal with. Hence the over-regulation (and increased costs)
of the railways for example. I suspect there will be much more nonsense to
come in the future - perhaps we need a backlash now, before it's too late.

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Bob

"Richard Porter" wrote in message
...
On 12 Oct 2004 "Bob" wrote:

Certainly there are rules things that could imposed to reduce the
toll - 30 mph everywhere maximum speed for a car, visible conduits
for wiring - but those kind of limits would be unacceptable to most
people.

AFAIAA most road casualities occur in 30mph or lower limits.


You misunderstand - I didn't mean 30mph speed limit signs, I meant cars
being physically limited to 30mph!

I'd quite like to have visible trunking for sockets, though conduit
would be a bit unsightly for lights and switches.


It would be ugly for both, which is why people don't want it. It would
actually be easier to wire a house if visible conduit were the way to go -
obviously aesthetics still have some importance.