In message , on Fri, 15 Oct 2004, G&M
writes

"Philip Stokes" wrote in message
...
In message om, on
Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Dave Liquorice writes
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:42:19 +0100, Richard Porter wrote:

On the other hand I've seen drivers driving the wrong way round a
mini roundabout when turning right which is asking for trouble.

At some (not so) mini roundabouts that is what you have to do.
Thinking of the "magic roundabouts" near Swindon and Hemelhempstead.
Wonderful creations, spagehti junction is easier to navigate.

There are plenty of other mini roundabouts at what used to be ordinary
T-junctions in Hemel Hempstead, where it is impossible to turn right in
one go without going over or crossing to the wrong side of the
"roundabout", but the "Magic Roundabout" certainly isn't one of them. It
is perfectly feasible to keep to the correct side of each and every mini
roundabout in the system when negotiating it.

In a HGV ?

Richard has already covered the exemption for large vehicles in his
previous post, but since you ask, the only one out of the series that
seems to be at all tight for _LGVs_ is the Two Waters Road junction, but
even that doesn't require an artic driver to cross completely to the
wrong side unless he's particularly unskilled or lazy.

On 15 Oct 2004 "Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:05:14 GMT, raden wrote:

Thinking of the "magic roundabouts" near Swindon and
Hemelhempstead. Wonderful creations, spagehti junction is easier to
navigate.

What do you mean?

Simple - left round the outside, right round the inside

where's the problem ?

The problem is that going counter clock round a roundabout sounds
very loud alarm bells in any sensible driver.

But you're not going counterclockwise round any roundabout - you're
just going in a counterclockwise direction round a series of two-way
roads which connect the roundabouts in a circle.

I quite often come down the hill into Hemel from the M1/M10 direction
and go out towards Bovingdon. I find it easier to turn right at the
first roundabout and go round the system anticlockwise. Although it's
the same distance vehicles which go the other way round have to give
way to me at the fourth roundabout where I turn right again.

The first time I encountered the Swindon, of which I had no fore
knowledge, I was badly thrown by suddenly finding my self going,
apparently, the wrong way round a roundabout.

Swindon is wonderful, or at least it was when it was first built. There
were no markings, just oil drums at each entry point. You gave way to
anything coming from your right and passed to the left of the drums at
the entry and exit points. That was it.

Now I know the layout they aren't a problem but that first encounter
was horrendous. Decent road planning should not present such
"challanges".

The first normal roundabout was no doubt a "challenge" when it was
built. Most new developments are. The ones I don't like are the
completely unnecessary pinch points, build-outs and slalom courses
which are just plain dangerous.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:05:14 GMT, raden wrote:

Thinking of the "magic roundabouts" near Swindon and
Hemelhempstead. Wonderful creations, spagehti junction is easier to
navigate.

What do you mean?

Simple - left round the outside, right round the inside

where's the problem ?

The problem is that going counter clock round a roundabout sounds very
loud alarm bells in any sensible driver.

Why so?

I never had a problem with either Hemel or Swindon.

You just have to think of it as going clockwise round the
mini-roundabout

I think you should remove the word sensible from the above

--
geoff

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:33:30 +0100, Richard Porter wrote:

But you're not going counterclockwise round any roundabout - you're
just going in a counterclockwise direction round a series of two-way
roads which connect the roundabouts in a circle.

I quite often come down the hill into Hemel from the M1/M10

Hemel might not have a marked roundabout in the middle, Swindon does
(or did)...

The ones I don't like are the completely unnecessary pinch points,
build-outs and slalom courses which are just plain dangerous.

Only if you are going to fast (that old chesnut). Having lived on a
busy straight, treelined, broad, road that was nothing more than
normal 1930's housing area road. Cars would travel at 40 to 60mph down
it, despite the 30 limit. The platforms and pinch points have brought
the upper speed down to a much more acceptable but still illegal
40mph.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 15 Oct 2004, Dave Liquorice wrote
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:05:14 GMT, raden wrote:

Thinking of the "magic roundabouts" near Swindon and
Hemelhempstead. Wonderful creations, spagehti junction is easier
to navigate.

What do you mean?
Simple - left round the outside, right round the inside
where's the problem ?

The problem is that going counter clock round a roundabout sounds
very loud alarm bells in any sensible driver. The first time I
encountered the Swindon, of which I had no fore knowledge, I was
badly thrown by suddenly finding my self going, apparently, the
wrong way round a roundabout.

Now I know the layout they aren't a problem but that first
encounter was horrendous. Decent road planning should not present
such "challanges".

I have to disgree, at least in the case of the Swindon one. (I love
the fact that they actually *did* call it the Magic Roundabout.)

I travel through it a couple of times per month, and whilst I still
have to work quite hard to understand the principle on paper -- or by
looking at the road sign -- I find that driving through it is extremely
straightfoward and clear.

It's not often that one encounters something that works better on the
ground that it does on paper.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

On 16 Oct 2004 "Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:33:30 +0100, Richard Porter wrote:

The ones I don't like are the completely unnecessary pinch points,
build-outs and slalom courses which are just plain dangerous.

Only if you are going to fast (that old chesnut). Having lived on a
busy straight, treelined, broad, road that was nothing more than
normal 1930's housing area road. Cars would travel at 40 to 60mph down
it, despite the 30 limit. The platforms and pinch points have brought
the upper speed down to a much more acceptable but still illegal
40mph.

No its not that I'm going too fast, though with some of the slaloms
they set up it's a great temptation to treat them as such. There's a
good one coming into South Mimms! A few years ago our council put in
build-outs on alternate sides of a road to slow down the traffic and the
accident rate went through the roof. They had to rip the whole lot out
again at great expense to the council tax payers.

I can't see the point of forcing alternate line traffic. It just causes
unnecessary delays, aggravation, noise and pollution.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
The ones I don't like are the completely unnecessary pinch points,
build-outs and slalom courses which are just plain dangerous.

Only if you are going to fast (that old chesnut). Having lived on a
busy straight, treelined, broad, road that was nothing more than
normal 1930's housing area road. Cars would travel at 40 to 60mph down
it, despite the 30 limit. The platforms and pinch points have brought
the upper speed down to a much more acceptable but still illegal
40mph.

Yes; I have a similar road at the end of mine that I regularly walk down
to get to the local shops. Before the speed bumps were introduced,
crossing it was a nightmare due to the speed of the traffic. Now it's easy.
I dislike speed bumps as a motorist of course, but there's no doubt in my
mind of their effectiveness. And that it's the only way to force the
majority of drivers to go at a sensible speed in residential areas.
Pedestrian crossings and phases at traffic lights aren't the answer either
- so many drivers just ignore those too.

--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message om, Dave
Liquorice wrote

Only if you are going to fast (that old chesnut). Having lived on a
busy straight, treelined, broad, road that was nothing more than
normal 1930's housing area road. Cars would travel at 40 to 60mph down
it, despite the 30 limit. The platforms and pinch points have brought
the upper speed down to a much more acceptable but still illegal
40mph.


Around my way, the council have achieved slower speeds on the _main
roads_ by road narrowing. The result - many more people now bypass the
main roads and use the side roads to reach their destination.

If you really want to see safety measures that really do not work go to
any school during the 'school run'. Note the number of responsible
parents double parked or letting their precious children from the car
when parked on the zig-zag lines etc..
--
Alan

In article , Richard Porter
wrote:

I can't see the point of forcing alternate line traffic. It just causes
unnecessary delays, aggravation, noise and pollution.

QED

You should see Gloucester. They use any excuse they can to cause congestion
and delays. Many of their daft ideas are actually very dangerous, the latest
gem being pedestrian crossings on all roundabout junctions. How there
hasn't been a major fatality yet I don't know, but there was another
(hopefully damage only) accident just yesterday on one near my home.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Richard Porter
wrote:

I can't see the point of forcing alternate line traffic. It just causes
unnecessary delays, aggravation, noise and pollution.

QED

You should see Gloucester. They use any excuse they can to cause
congestion
and delays. Many of their daft ideas are actually very dangerous, the
latest
gem being pedestrian crossings on all roundabout junctions.

That is dangerous. As cars crowned the roundabouts they are unaware of a
crossing directly in front of them. When roundabouts are crowned so you
can't see the other side they problem is worse, also when there is lots of
traffic so the crossing obscured.

The best place for crossing is usually the safest and most convenient for
drivers.

How there
hasn't been a major fatality yet I don't know, but there was another
(hopefully damage only) accident just yesterday on one near my home.

In article ,
Philip Stokes wrote:

Richard has already covered the exemption for large vehicles in
his previous post, but since you ask, the only one out of the
series that seems to be at all tight for _LGVs_ is the Two
Waters Road junction, but even that doesn't require an artic
driver to cross completely to the wrong side unless he's
particularly unskilled or lazy.

I go around Hemel's MR anticlockwise just for the hell
of it. Before the A41(M) was built the worst roundabout
in Hemel was the little one on the A41 near the station,
which had traffic lights just past one of it's exits.
A blocked exit on a roundabout causes immediate gridlock
and that would spillback and gridlock the big roundabout
leading to the MR.

--
Tony Williams.

In message , Bob
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:30:28 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Out of interest, does anyone know just how many people get electrocuted
in
the home each year in this country? Is it really enough to warrent
these
new regulations?

Andy Hall will be along in a little while with chapter and verse; but if
I remember the posts around the time the "Part P" stuff was being
mooted, he tracked down the UK figures. Deaths from fixed wiring were in
the low single-digits; total electrocutions - mainly from faulty
appliances - were in the tens.

OK, you made me do it (fx: googling). Over at
http://www.rospa.com/product/pdfs/electrical.pdf
there's some information from the
predisposed-to-take-safety-Very-Seriously lobby. They tell us there were
5 fatalities annually from fixed wiring between 1990 and 1998, and 14
more from portable and non-portable equipment. Additionally, around 25
deaths annually are attributable to fires caused by "faulty electrical
equipment and wiring" - no breakdown in this source of appliances versus
fixed wiring, sadly. Each one's a personal tragedy, clearly; but the
overall level strikes me as low, and there would seem to be more to be
gained from looking at appliance safety than the fixed wiring which Part
P sets out to regulate and inspecturate...

Stefek

That sums it up pretty well. Andrew Gabriel also did a lot of
research and the conclusion was that the vast majority of electrical
injuries in the home were from faulty portable appliances, with fixed
wiring related issues very much smaller.

If set in the context of all accidents in the home, electricity
related ones pale into insignificance.

Several of us wrote to our MPs at the time and kept a close eye on
developments reported on the ODPM web site, among other places.

The figures and comments were massaged to de-emphasise anything based
on statistics and anyhting dissenting from what had almost certainly
been decided by Rocky and his sidekick Raynsford.

MPs making enquiries received waffly duplicated letters which said
nothing apart from the party line.

The risk assessment that was done focussed more on anecdotal opinion
from interested parties such as the IEE, NICEIC and others with
something to gain economically or politically.

Little or no tthought was given to enforcability, and of course in
practice this is unenforcable apart from in certain defined
circumstances.

There will still be electrical DIY and there will still be people
doing electrical work who are unregistered.


This is a sign that the safety nazis must be bored - there's nothing big
left for them to deal with. Hence the over-regulation (and increased costs)
of the railways for example. I suspect there will be much more nonsense to
come in the future - perhaps we need a backlash now, before it's too late.

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Right, I'm off to wire up a couple of AA batteries !



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.


--
Alan

On 19 Oct 2004 raden wrote:

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some
electrical work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas
fitting too ;-)

Right, I'm off to wire up a couple of AA batteries !

Does the campaign of civil disobedience extend to not trimming the
message you are replying to?

pedantryAA cells are cells, not batteries. "Battery" is a collective
nown for voltaic cells, guns, hen houses, cameras, etc./pedantry

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

Richard Porter wrote:

pedantryAA cells are cells, not batteries. "Battery" is a collective
nown for voltaic cells, guns, hen houses, cameras, etc./pedantry
! ^^^^

The trouble with pedantry is ... :-). And anyway I can't help thinking
you're fighting a totally lost cause with the cell/battery thing.

--
Andy

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Timbo

On 20 Oct 2004 Andy Wade wrote:

Richard Porter wrote:

pedantryAA cells are cells, not batteries. "Battery" is a collective
nown for voltaic cells, guns, hen houses, cameras, etc./pedantry
! ^^^^

The trouble with pedantry is ... :-).

Oops! And w is nowhere near u either!

And anyway I can't help thinking you're fighting a totally lost cause
with the cell/battery thing.

You're probably right :-(

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

In message , Richard Porter
writes
On 19 Oct 2004 raden wrote:

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some
electrical work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas
fitting too ;-)

Right, I'm off to wire up a couple of AA batteries !

Does the campaign of civil disobedience extend to not trimming the
message you are replying to?

pedantryAA cells are cells, not batteries. "Battery" is a collective
nown for voltaic cells, guns, hen houses, cameras, etc./pedantry

I know that, do I give a **** ?

Oops, forgot to trim again ...


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago

[1] For the pedants, not "new" new


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago

[1] For the pedants, not "new" new


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

.... but it's not all yours, you've included posts from other people,
they might even be bits of text from http://www.diyprojects.info.

--
Chris Green

In message , writes
raden wrote:
In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago

[1] For the pedants, not "new" new


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

... but it's not all yours, you've included posts from other people,
they might even be bits of text from http://www.diyprojects.info.


I consider the post to be the bit I added to the thread

If you can word it better, please do so. I just object to what I've
written being hijacked in the way it has been


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , raden
wrote
In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago


There is probably nothing wrong with reinforced hose pipe for gas
fitting. If it can cope with water pressure it can cope with gas
pressure. If it is has been safe for Bunsen burners to be connected to
gas outlet via a rubber hose for more than 100 years it should safe for
your kitchen cooker or for your boiler.

I believe that everything is now permissible if it inspected by someone
who is affiliated with Crufts.

When checking the gas pressure how long should the flame be from the gas
test points?
--
Alan

In message , Alan
writes
In message , raden
wrote
In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago


There is probably nothing wrong with reinforced

I didn't mention anything about it being reinforced

hose pipe for gas fitting.

Really ?

Ask your insurance company


--
geoff

In message , writes
raden wrote:
In message , Tim
writes
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:12:41 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , Bob
wrote

Maybe a campaign of civil disobedience - let's all go do some electrical
work. The more bolshie among us could try a bit of gas fitting too ;-)

Go for it - gas fitting is so easy - especially with modern plastic
pipes and push fittings. A tiny bit of skill is required when it comes
to fitting in-line compression fitting service valves - just throw away
the olives and use a good quality glue such as boss-white instead.

Boss-white? Overkill. Used chewing gum and a few turns of gaffer tape
shurely? ;D

Or hose pipe - as my brother discovered when he moved into his new [1]
house a couple of years ago

[1] For the pedants, not "new" new


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

... but it's not all yours, you've included posts from other people,
they might even be bits of text from http://www.diyprojects.info.

You're probably under the misconception that I give a toss

I've already explained my perceived position in other posts, and since
the disclaimer's served it's function and the problem has magically
resolved itself, as far as I'm concerned, it's the end of the story.

--
geoff