Mike Mitchell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:30:43 +0100, John Laird
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:01:27 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:

A lot of the people I've seen on that show have only made money
because house prices have risen while they've been doing it up. In
some cases they'd have been better of doing nothing to it at all,
leaving it unlet and just selling it a year later.

Exactly the conclusion I came to while idly perusing the first
series. Especially as, in a rising market, unimproved properties
will still sell.

[Anyone know what the time lag is between filming and airing these
sort of programmes ? Whenever I watch one of the relocation ones, I
am bewildered by the prices which sometimes seem to be so low as to
be unreal at times.]

I thought the same when they said they'd paid £35K for that property
in Lincs. I'm currently looking for properties in Lincs and you've got
to pay around £135K for a detached 2-bed bungalow. Even a terraced
property seems to be a lot more than £35K! Mind you, that property was
in a bit of a state, wasn't it?

That one was done over a winter, I'd assume 03-04 but the prices would seem
to indicate a year or 2 further back. Must make a note of passing number
plates in the next one to judge the age.

They introduced the issue of the skip and then rapidly brushed over it,
surely even the skip people must have mentioned permits/lights/cones at some
stage.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

TonyK wrote:
Have a look at MFIs prices today, just orderd enough units to do an "L"
2.6x2.6m inc. sink,taps, hob, cooker, extractor and dishwasher (all
stainless).

I wish you luck. At the moment I have been waiting 2months for delivery
of certain MFI shortage bedroom items. The shortages have now been
delayed for a third time, each time by at least 2 weeks. They have
managed to deliver two panels of an order on the same day for which the
remaining two panels were cancelled and failed to deliver another panel
order which I had waited in for all day and was subsequently
rescheduled. They appear to be in as much of a mess as Screwfix, whose
telephone order line appears to have been out of action all this week. I
do wonder if MFI have financial problems as the finance director
departed at great speed recently and the reason given for non delivery
is being unable to get supplies in on schedule. Their customer service
however I will give full marks to, useless at management caused problem
solving, but very reliable at returning phone calls to apologise for the
foul ups.

Does anyone know if MFI make for Homebase/Wickes/Focus/B & Q, as I find
that almost all the doors,drawer fronts of kitchen units are the same
size, which seems strange?

Regards
Capitol

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:24:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


One off payment? They cost to run. They estimate 6 years payback. Then the
cost of the electricity to run it must be colossal after too. Very little
insulation in that place, and those Atlantic winds blowing in. UFH only on
the ground floor. To run a heat pumps is about the same cost as natural
gas.

Think of it as an indulgence. After all, isn't the building in last
nights show coming close to being the ultimate in property development
as the new religion?

--
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to mail me.

"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:24:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

One off payment? They cost to run. They estimate 6 years payback. Then
the
cost of the electricity to run it must be colossal after too. Very
little
insulation in that place, and those Atlantic winds blowing in. UFH only
on
the ground floor. To run a heat pumps is about the same cost as natural
gas.

Think of it as an indulgence. After all, isn't the building in last
nights show coming close to being the ultimate in property development
as the new religion?

It was in Ireland and they have a thing about religion. I personally would
have ripped the place down and built a proper eco house. Who wants to live
in a church? It looked like a church from the outside too. No additions to
distinguish it as a house.

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:38:42 +0100, "James Hart"
wrote:

Mike Mitchell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:30:43 +0100, John Laird
wrote:

[Anyone know what the time lag is between filming and airing these
sort of programmes ? Whenever I watch one of the relocation ones, I
am bewildered by the prices which sometimes seem to be so low as to
be unreal at times.]

I thought the same when they said they'd paid £35K for that property
in Lincs. I'm currently looking for properties in Lincs and you've got
to pay around £135K for a detached 2-bed bungalow. Even a terraced
property seems to be a lot more than £35K! Mind you, that property was
in a bit of a state, wasn't it?

That one was done over a winter, I'd assume 03-04 but the prices would seem
to indicate a year or 2 further back. Must make a note of passing number
plates in the next one to judge the age.

Not sure I know which programme you refer to. I was thinking of the ones
recently repeated on BBC2 with the horsey-looking blonde presenter(*). They
may have concentrated entirely on country properties, not sure. But the
prices for some seemed extremely reasonable which made me think we were in
some time warp.

(*) Not even on the same playing field as the delightful Melissa Porter.
With her as a relocation agent, I'd soon be bankrupt, moving every 3 months
or so...

--
Excommunicated: On vacation without a computer.

Mail john rather than nospam...

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:09:54 GMT, "R Taylor"
wrote:

Bob wrote:
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
...

At 3 am this morning my wife asked me why the living expenses are not
shown for these couples who drop everything else to do up the
selected
properties whilst appearing on TV.
Is the program mainly intended as entertainment, information or
heavily slanted advertising on behalf of needy housing market
professionals?
I suppose it could be seen as some or all of those.

The amount of people who make little or lose is astounding. Doing up
property to sell is a dodgy game and you have to know what you are
doing and
the market the house is in. Beany knows her stuff and if her
guidelines are
followed you will make money, or not lose. The most important point is
know
the market the house or flat is in and what will add value in that
market.


A lot of the people I've seen on that show have only made money because
house prices have risen while they've been doing it up. In some cases
they'd have been better of doing nothing to it at all, leaving it unlet
and
just selling it a year later.

Bob

I'd have took the £15 pure profit that the solicitor offered and used it
as
a deposit on a finished house /then/ waited 12 months for the price to
rise in line with the rest of the street.

but then I'm a sensible bloke and not a lesbitarian with an axe to grind
:-)

Were they lesbitarians?

Is the Pop catholic? Does Dolly Parton sleep on her tummy? etc, etc...

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
JoeJoe wrote:

Watched the program tonight, and was wondering...

They claimed to have spent £1200 on their kitchen, which was of decent
size,
including appliances (which looked pretty expensive ones), and
installation.

I buy 3-4 per year, and have a joiner friend that fits them for me for
£400
each. I tend to buy mine from MFI/B&Q/etc middle-range, and with very
good
quality fitting they usually look pretty good. For similar kitchen to
the
ones I buy the sheds/MFI charge at least £1000 for fitting.

Even if I exclude the extra units that they had in their beautifully
appointed (NOT) utility room, where can one find all this lot for that
price?

Yeeees...I thought I smelt a rat there too. The hob/oven/extractor were
AEG. That's *at least* 150+300+300 = £750 for that lot - probably
significantly more (an AEG chimney extractor is ~£500).

I think the extractor was the one Baumatic used to make for B&Q for about
£200. No longer available. I thought the rest of the kitchen looked
B&Q-ish as well.

In message , Mike Mitchell
writes
hat episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the two
women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any episode
I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

This happens so often that it cannot be coincidence. I am sure that the
producers are actually looking for people like this - does it make good
TV? I, for one, cant watch it.

--
Richard Faulkner

In article , says...

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...

That episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the
two women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any
episode I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

But that's the whole point, innit? If everyone on the prog said 'Yeah,
Sarah, wow, great idea we'll do that' to everything she came up with it
wouldn't be "good" TV, would it? Much better to have lots of conflict,
and
stupid prats making saft statements and digging ginormous holes for
themselves.

I often wonder how many filmed projects never actually get shown because
they run smoothly, to budget and time, and the protagonists actually heed
Beeny's advice...

The same format for Grand Designs, although last nights went smoothly. Yet
near end Kevin McCloud said it was running over budget, and the architect
had told him that was because they ordered more extras not because of delays
or mismanagement. The only suspense McCloud put in was that he thought the
interior would be naff and it wasn't, it was brilliant. I wouldn't like to
pay to heat that place. Little insulation anywhere.



But then he was getting ir heated 'Free' from that huge thermal/heat
transfer/whatsit thing he buried in the next door field.

I would really have liked to know how well that system worked.
--
Paul Mc Cann

In article ,
says...
In message , Mike Mitchell
writes
hat episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the two
women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any episode
I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

This happens so often that it cannot be coincidence. I am sure that the
producers are actually looking for people like this - does it make good
TV? I, for one, cant watch it.


Its probably more down to the way the show is edited.

I often think that if you **** off the director he can amke you appear
very un-sympathetic.

--
Paul Mc Cann

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"TonyK" wrote in message
...

"JoeJoe" wrote in message
...
Watched the program tonight, and was wondering...

They claimed to have spent £1200 on their kitchen, which was of decent
size,
including appliances (which looked pretty expensive ones), and
installation.

I buy 3-4 per year, and have a joiner friend that fits them for me for
£400
each. I tend to buy mine from MFI/B&Q/etc middle-range, and with very
good
quality fitting they usually look pretty good. For similar kitchen to
the
ones I buy the sheds/MFI charge at least £1000 for fitting.

Even if I exclude the extra units that they had in their beautifully
appointed (NOT) utility room, where can one find all this lot for that
price?

Have a look at MFIs prices today, just orderd enough units to do an "L"
2.6x2.6m inc. sink,taps, hob, cooker, extractor and dishwasher (all
stainless). Plus a 2 breakfast bar with stainless legs, plus a utility
with
a 1.6m top with a 1000 base underneat and a space for the dishwasher.
Includes a drawline unit and two 1000 wall cabinets. Plinths, cornice
and
faced panels for end cabinets. Total price £1198.00, plus its not a
crappy
kitchen, doors aren't solid wood but fully wrapped etc so should last a
few
years of tenants.

Feeling quite chuffed actually!

What was the delivery time? What make of appliances?



Delivery is 5 weeks, oven/hob are "Diplomat" (never heard of that one!) and
the dishwasher is Indesit. Not the worlds greatest stuff but for £1200 I'm
not going to complain, especially since its for a rental.

"TonyK" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"TonyK" wrote in message
...

"JoeJoe" wrote in message
...
Watched the program tonight, and was wondering...

They claimed to have spent £1200 on their kitchen, which was of
decent
size,
including appliances (which looked pretty expensive ones), and
installation.

I buy 3-4 per year, and have a joiner friend that fits them for me
for
£400
each. I tend to buy mine from MFI/B&Q/etc middle-range, and with
very
good
quality fitting they usually look pretty good. For similar kitchen
to
the
ones I buy the sheds/MFI charge at least £1000 for fitting.

Even if I exclude the extra units that they had in their beautifully
appointed (NOT) utility room, where can one find all this lot for
that
price?

Have a look at MFIs prices today, just orderd enough units to do an
"L"
2.6x2.6m inc. sink,taps, hob, cooker, extractor and dishwasher (all
stainless). Plus a 2 breakfast bar with stainless legs, plus a utility
with
a 1.6m top with a 1000 base underneat and a space for the dishwasher.
Includes a drawline unit and two 1000 wall cabinets. Plinths, cornice
and
faced panels for end cabinets. Total price £1198.00, plus its not a
crappy
kitchen, doors aren't solid wood but fully wrapped etc so should last
a
few
years of tenants.

Feeling quite chuffed actually!

What was the delivery time? What make of appliances?

Delivery is 5 weeks, oven/hob are "Diplomat" (never heard of that one!)
and
the dishwasher is Indesit. Not the worlds greatest stuff but for £1200 I'm
not going to complain, especially since its for a rental.

You to make sure appliances are replaceable and that the range will be make
for a while in case some doors need replacing.

My previous dealing with MFI is that they promise and never deliver all the
order. You make find that handles or whatever will arrive after 10 weeks.

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 04:44:24 +0100, Richard Faulkner
wrote:

In message , Mike Mitchell
writes
hat episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the two
women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any episode
I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

This happens so often that it cannot be coincidence. I am sure that the
producers are actually looking for people like this - does it make good
TV? I, for one, cant watch it.

Oh, I can always watch it. There are always a few pointers to take
away. The one the other night, for example. They seemed to be taking a
heck of a long time ripping the old stuff out. Also, I didn't know
about the skip and legal ramifications of parking it on the street.
Probably, I would have found out about it, but it's another little
snippet of information to store away for free. Finally, in the summer
episodes, when the Beeney is blossoming out all over, so to speak,
with little restraint, it's far more fun than watching cricket.

MM

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 22:54:01 +0100, John Laird
wrote:

(*) Not even on the same playing field as the delightful Melissa Porter.
With her as a relocation agent, I'd soon be bankrupt, moving every 3 months
or so...

Totally agree! When she does the Get a New Life programmes and the
bald geezer gets to go instead of her, I turn off the TV, slink away,
and cry.

MM

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:14:08 +0100, "TonyK"
wrote:


"JoeJoe" wrote in message
...
Watched the program tonight, and was wondering...

They claimed to have spent £1200 on their kitchen, which was of decent
size,
including appliances (which looked pretty expensive ones), and
installation.

I buy 3-4 per year, and have a joiner friend that fits them for me for
£400
each. I tend to buy mine from MFI/B&Q/etc middle-range, and with very good
quality fitting they usually look pretty good. For similar kitchen to the
ones I buy the sheds/MFI charge at least £1000 for fitting.

Even if I exclude the extra units that they had in their beautifully
appointed (NOT) utility room, where can one find all this lot for that
price?



Have a look at MFIs prices today, just orderd enough units to do an "L"
2.6x2.6m inc. sink,taps, hob, cooker, extractor and dishwasher (all
stainless). Plus a 2 breakfast bar with stainless legs, plus a utility with
a 1.6m top with a 1000 base underneat and a space for the dishwasher.
Includes a drawline unit and two 1000 wall cabinets. Plinths, cornice and
faced panels for end cabinets. Total price £1198.00, plus its not a crappy
kitchen, doors aren't solid wood but fully wrapped etc so should last a few
years of tenants.

Feeling quite chuffed actually!

How would this compare with IKEA's prices? Magnet's? I've always
thought of MFI as the epitome of crap.

MM

G&M wrote:

I think the extractor was the one Baumatic used to make for B&Q for about
£200. No longer available. I thought the rest of the kitchen looked
B&Q-ish as well.

Hmm, ok, maybe - I thought it was this one:
http://www.theappliancepeople.co.uk/ap/_3805_AEG_C2020DM.html

The oven and hob *definitely* said AEG on them.


--
Grunff

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:14:08 +0100, "TonyK"
wrote:


"JoeJoe" wrote in message
...
Watched the program tonight, and was wondering...

They claimed to have spent £1200 on their kitchen, which was of decent
size,
including appliances (which looked pretty expensive ones), and
installation.

I buy 3-4 per year, and have a joiner friend that fits them for me for
£400
each. I tend to buy mine from MFI/B&Q/etc middle-range, and with very
good
quality fitting they usually look pretty good. For similar kitchen to
the
ones I buy the sheds/MFI charge at least £1000 for fitting.

Even if I exclude the extra units that they had in their beautifully
appointed (NOT) utility room, where can one find all this lot for that
price?



Have a look at MFIs prices today, just orderd enough units to do an "L"
2.6x2.6m inc. sink,taps, hob, cooker, extractor and dishwasher (all
stainless). Plus a 2 breakfast bar with stainless legs, plus a utility
with
a 1.6m top with a 1000 base underneat and a space for the dishwasher.
Includes a drawline unit and two 1000 wall cabinets. Plinths, cornice and
faced panels for end cabinets. Total price £1198.00, plus its not a
crappy
kitchen, doors aren't solid wood but fully wrapped etc so should last a
few
years of tenants.

Feeling quite chuffed actually!

How would this compare with IKEA's prices? Magnet's? I've always
thought of MFI as the epitome of crap.

IKEA well priced and v good, but they never have everything in stock, and
getting it from their appalling stores is another matter.

"Paul Mc Cann" wrote in message
.. .
In article , says...

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...

That episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the
two women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any
episode I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

But that's the whole point, innit? If everyone on the prog said
'Yeah,
Sarah, wow, great idea we'll do that' to everything she came up with
it
wouldn't be "good" TV, would it? Much better to have lots of
conflict,
and
stupid prats making saft statements and digging ginormous holes for
themselves.

I often wonder how many filmed projects never actually get shown
because
they run smoothly, to budget and time, and the protagonists actually
heed
Beeny's advice...

The same format for Grand Designs, although last nights went smoothly.
Yet
near end Kevin McCloud said it was running over budget, and the
architect
had told him that was because they ordered more extras not because of
delays
or mismanagement. The only suspense McCloud put in was that he thought
the
interior would be naff and it wasn't, it was brilliant. I wouldn't like
to
pay to heat that place. Little insulation anywhere.



But then he was getting ir heated 'Free' from that huge thermal/heat
transfer/whatsit thing he buried in the next door field.

I would really have liked to know how well that system worked.

He was getting nothing free at all. It was a heat pump, and as McCloud
explained it is the same as a fridge. they even use fridge compressors. Is
"moves" heat from the earth into the house, as a fridge moves heat from the
cabinet into the condensing tubes at the back of the fridge.

The compressor costs to run. The running costs of a ground sourced heat pump
is about the same as natural gas. He has a trench (surface) ground heat
pump system. The best are where you have a bore hole 50 to 60 foot deep.
Surface systems can run out of available heat giving only low grade heat,
not enough for hot DHW.

That church would cost a lot of money to heat as insulation was not a major
part of the construction. I would have pulled the church down and built a
proper eco house. The old stones could have been used to clad, or add
thermal mass to a new eco house, still giving a link with the past.

[Anyone know what the time lag is between filming and airing these sort of
programmes ? Whenever I watch one of the relocation ones, I am bewildered
by the prices which sometimes seem to be so low as to be unreal at times.]

Yeah, this particular episode started in 1875 because the design was
intended to appeal to factory workers who wanted to take their boots
off in the parlour after a hard 15-hour shift on the looms - and it
ended in 2095 when it was put on the market for the standard factory
worker wage of £108,000.

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:39:33 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 22:54:01 +0100, John Laird
wrote:

(*) Not even on the same playing field as the delightful Melissa Porter.
With her as a relocation agent, I'd soon be bankrupt, moving every 3 months
or so...

Totally agree! When she does the Get a New Life programmes and the
bald geezer gets to go instead of her, I turn off the TV, slink away,
and cry.

YMYA. Spoilsport producers. The answer is: work from home and leave the
telly on after the breakfast show. To Buy or Not to Buy is on daily at the
moment...

--
You dialed an imaginary number. Turn the phone 90 degrees and retry.

Mail john rather than nospam...

"Garibaldi8" wrote in message
...
the website says the kitchen supplier was Magnet - but Magnet's own price
list shows that the kitchen couldn't have been bought at anything like
full
price.

Although in all fairness, I (just an ordinary man on the street with a trade
account) get about 40-50% off at Magnet from their BM bit (on main items
like stock doors etc.), and I hardly go there. Not sure if it applies to
their kitchens though..

Alex

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:19:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

That church would cost a lot of money to heat as insulation was not a major
part of the construction. I would have pulled the church down and built a
proper eco house. The old stones could have been used to clad, or add
thermal mass to a new eco house, still giving a link with the past.

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

cheers,
Pete.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

I think the extractor was the one Baumatic used to make for B&Q for
about
£200. No longer available. I thought the rest of the kitchen looked
B&Q-ish as well.

Hmm, ok, maybe - I thought it was this one:
http://www.theappliancepeople.co.uk/ap/_3805_AEG_C2020DM.html

Had a narrower glass bit


The oven and hob *definitely* said AEG on them.

I think B&Q sell these now.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:19:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

That church would cost a lot of money to heat as insulation was not a
major
part of the construction. I would have pulled the church down and built a
proper eco house. The old stones could have been used to clad, or add
thermal mass to a new eco house, still giving a link with the past.

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25 years
demolished.

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was 10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

I can do most DIY needed to
refurbish a house. But I would never, ever attempt to do plastering.
It's a skill plasterers learn by lots of practice and one of the few
things you simply cannot learn by reading a DIY book. Sometimes you
have to open your wallet and pay a professional.

Hurrah!

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...

That episode last night really got on my nerves, as everything that
Sarah suggested was rejected out of hand, with a sneer even, by the
two women. I don't know why SB bothers, as hardly anyone on any
episode I've seen has heeded her advice at all.

But that's the whole point, innit? If everyone on the prog said
'Yeah,
Sarah, wow, great idea we'll do that' to everything she came up with
it
wouldn't be "good" TV, would it? Much better to have lots of
conflict,
and
stupid prats making saft statements and digging ginormous holes for
themselves.

I often wonder how many filmed projects never actually get shown
because
they run smoothly, to budget and time, and the protagonists actually
heed
Beeny's advice...

The same format for Grand Designs, although last nights went smoothly.
Yet
near end Kevin McCloud said it was running over budget, and the
architect
had told him that was because they ordered more extras not because of
delays
or mismanagement. The only suspense McCloud put in was that he thought
the
interior would be naff and it wasn't, it was brilliant. I wouldn't
like
to
pay to heat that place. Little insulation anywhere.

That's was what the ground pump was for wasn't it, a one off payment of
10,000 euro's for life not bad!

One off payment? They cost to run. They estimate 6 years payback. Then
the
cost of the electricity to run it must be colossal after too. Very little
insulation in that place, and those Atlantic winds blowing in. UFH only
on
the ground floor. To run a heat pumps is about the same cost as natural
gas.

In that case would have been cheaper to put in a top of the range condensing
combi

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:33:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25 years
demolished.

More mentalism...

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was 10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

Was the church a new house build to look like a church or and existing
church? Did it have a lot of thermal mass?

cheers,
Pete.

In message , Pete C
writes
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:33:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25 years
demolished.

More mentalism...

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was 10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

Was the church a new house build to look like a church or and existing
church?

It was an existing church, on the west coast of Ireland, in Co. Mayo.

Small old stone church, had been burnt out (after a lightening strike,
about 100 years ago. It was very sympathetic restoration. Masons rebuilt
the bell tower (damaged in the strike), Inside was divided up a bit of
course for practical use, but the whole internal structure was pretty
much free-standing (basically wood frame). whatever happens to the
internals the structure will still be there for a few more hundred years
I imagine.

Did it have a lot of thermal mass?

Thick solid stone walls, I should think so :-)

Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me
--
Chris French, Leeds

In article , "chris French"
says...
In message , Pete C
writes
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:33:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25 years
demolished.

More mentalism...

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was 10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

Was the church a new house build to look like a church or and existing
church?

It was an existing church, on the west coast of Ireland, in Co. Mayo.

Small old stone church, had been burnt out (after a lightening strike,
about 100 years ago. It was very sympathetic restoration. Masons rebuilt
the bell tower (damaged in the strike), Inside was divided up a bit of
course for practical use, but the whole internal structure was pretty
much free-standing (basically wood frame). whatever happens to the
internals the structure will still be there for a few more hundred years
I imagine.

Did it have a lot of thermal mass?

Thick solid stone walls, I should think so :-)

Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me

Could they not have used a wind pump instead of electric?

chris French wrote:
snip
Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me

But, it's not.

Let's be optimistic, and say that the heat pump takes 1Kwh to pump
7Kwh of heat. (about the theoretical maximum efficiency for pumping
from 0-40C.)
But, electricity is some 3-4 times dearer than gas.
So, unless you are comparing it with electric heating it's not looking
so rosy.

It's (eventually, assuming it lasts for ever) 7 times cheaper than
electricity.
But, it's only about 2 times cheaper than gas.

Payback can happen faster if energy prices rise (gas and electricity
will tend to rise together unless we go nuclear), but it will never
outperform adding insulation unless electricity is free.

I'll take a guess that the walls of the church are 75cm stone on average.
That's a R value of around .6, or a U value of 1.6W/m^2/K.
To halve the thermal loss you only need about 10-20mm extra insulation.

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
chris French wrote:
snip
Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me

But, it's not.

Let's be optimistic, and say that the heat pump takes 1Kwh to pump
7Kwh of heat. (about the theoretical maximum efficiency for pumping
from 0-40C.)
But, electricity is some 3-4 times dearer than gas.
So, unless you are comparing it with electric heating it's not looking
so rosy.

It's (eventually, assuming it lasts for ever) 7 times cheaper than
electricity.
But, it's only about 2 times cheaper than gas.

The location of the church would indicate the alternatives were oil or
LPG, I can't imagine mains gas was available there.

Payback can happen faster if energy prices rise (gas and electricity
will tend to rise together unless we go nuclear), but it will never
outperform adding insulation unless electricity is free.

I'll take a guess that the walls of the church are 75cm stone on average.
That's a R value of around .6, or a U value of 1.6W/m^2/K.
To halve the thermal loss you only need about 10-20mm extra insulation.

Oh sure, but they seemed to want to leave as much stone exposed as
possible, ditto exposed roof timber. I've no doubt it could have been
made more energy efficient.
--
Chris French, Leeds

Rob Morley wrote:
snip
Could they not have used a wind pump instead of electric?

A heat pump is more than simply a pump.
It's basically a refrigerator cooling the field where the coil is buried
and heating the church.
While in theory you could run this from wind power, it'd be a really
large and complex installation to do so. (in combination with battery
bank to level the load, and ...).

In article , "Ian
Stirling" says...
Rob Morley wrote:
snip
Could they not have used a wind pump instead of electric?

A heat pump is more than simply a pump.
It's basically a refrigerator cooling the field where the coil is buried
and heating the church.

I know - would you be happy if I called it a compressor rather than a
pump?

While in theory you could run this from wind power, it'd be a really
large and complex installation to do so.

Why? Wind turbine goes around, compressor goes around.

(in combination with battery bank to level the load, and ...).

Why would they need this?

Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Ian
Stirling" says...
Rob Morley wrote:
snip
Could they not have used a wind pump instead of electric?

A heat pump is more than simply a pump.
It's basically a refrigerator cooling the field where the coil is buried
and heating the church.

I know - would you be happy if I called it a compressor rather than a
pump?

Don't care, it's just some may misunderstand.

While in theory you could run this from wind power, it'd be a really
large and complex installation to do so.

Why? Wind turbine goes around, compressor goes around.

Because I'm not aware of any that do it that way.
It's of course possible.

(in combination with battery bank to level the load, and ...).

Why would they need this?

To make the heating work when the wind does not.
A 4Kw (mechanical or electrical) windmill is not going to be cheap
or easy.

In article , "Ian
Stirling" says...
Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Ian
Stirling" says...
Rob Morley wrote:
snip
Could they not have used a wind pump instead of electric?

A heat pump is more than simply a pump.
It's basically a refrigerator cooling the field where the coil is buried
and heating the church.

I know - would you be happy if I called it a compressor rather than a
pump?

Don't care, it's just some may misunderstand.

While in theory you could run this from wind power, it'd be a really
large and complex installation to do so.

Why? Wind turbine goes around, compressor goes around.

Because I'm not aware of any that do it that way.
It's of course possible.

(in combination with battery bank to level the load, and ...).

Why would they need this?

To make the heating work when the wind does not.

That's when you use the electric motor. Although I imagine that they
wouldn't need it much on the west coast of Ireland.

A 4Kw (mechanical or electrical) windmill is not going to be cheap
or easy.

Just had a quick read around, and it seems it would need to be rather
large. Oh well ...
:-)

"Alex \(YMG\)" wrote in message ...
"Garibaldi8" wrote in message
...
the website says the kitchen supplier was Magnet - but Magnet's own price
list shows that the kitchen couldn't have been bought at anything like
full
price.

Although in all fairness, I (just an ordinary man on the street with a trade
account) get about 40-50% off at Magnet from their BM bit (on main items
like stock doors etc.), and I hardly go there. Not sure if it applies to
their kitchens though..

Alex

Magnet mark up all their stuff at ridiculous prices in the first
place. Even after their discounts I've found the same stuff much
cheaper elsewhere.

On 09 Oct 2004 14:40:32 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:


Let's be optimistic, and say that the heat pump takes 1Kwh to pump
7Kwh of heat. (about the theoretical maximum efficiency for pumping
from 0-40C.)
But, electricity is some 3-4 times dearer than gas.
So, unless you are comparing it with electric heating it's not looking
so rosy.

Hi,

With a typical GSHP it would be 3:1 or 5:1 for a very good one.

It's (eventually, assuming it lasts for ever) 7 times cheaper than
electricity.
But, it's only about 2 times cheaper than gas.

What makes it worthwhile for a building with a lot of thermal mass is
that you can heat overnight on economy 7 and the building will keep
warm in the day.

Also the thick walls will average out the outside temp to around 5°C
for NI winters, averaging out the heat load which helps heat pump
capacity and efficiency.

AFAICS the economy 7 rate in NI is 3.44p and the gas rate is 2.1p, so
with a 4:1 heat pump running overnight it comes out at 3.44/5 = 0.688,
3x cheaper than gas.

Payback can happen faster if energy prices rise (gas and electricity
will tend to rise together unless we go nuclear), but it will never
outperform adding insulation unless electricity is free.

Electricity will lag behind a bit, so the saving will increase
slightly as gas prices rise.

I'll take a guess that the walls of the church are 75cm stone on average.
That's a R value of around .6, or a U value of 1.6W/m^2/K.
To halve the thermal loss you only need about 10-20mm extra insulation.

True, if they dry line the walls that would make a big difference as
heat is released through the floor so can only escape through the
walls, windows and roof.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:33:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more
energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed
church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25
years
demolished.

More mentalism...

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was
10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

Was the church a new house build to look like a church or and existing
church? Did it have a lot of thermal mass?

It was a church that burned down in 1904. The empty shell was there for 100
years. It was of no merit in looks. I would have ripped it down and used
the stones for cladding on a new house.

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Pete C
writes
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:33:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Eh? Why not leave the church alone and build your eco house elsewhere,
I bet the church will stand a lot longer!

That building is environmentally a disaster. It will consume far more
energy
than needed. It also looked crap. It looked like a lousily designed
church,
of which I have seen countess better looking churches over the past 25
years
demolished.

More mentalism...

BTW was there a natural gas supply where it was? If not it might
explain the use of a heat pump.

Oil and LPG would be cheaper. The capital cost of the heat pump was
10,000
euros. The extra they paid for a fad would buy a lot of oil.

Was the church a new house build to look like a church or and existing
church?

It was an existing church, on the west coast of Ireland, in Co. Mayo.

Small old stone church, had been burnt out (after a lightening strike,
about 100 years ago. It was very sympathetic restoration. Masons rebuilt
the bell tower (damaged in the strike), Inside was divided up a bit of
course for practical use, but the whole internal structure was pretty
much free-standing (basically wood frame). whatever happens to the
internals the structure will still be there for a few more hundred years
I imagine.

Did it have a lot of thermal mass?

Thick solid stone walls, I should think so :-)

Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me

10,00 euros. So, 10,000 divided by 6 divided by 52 = 32 per week. That is
416 per quarter. Not cheap at all. It didn't say how they calculated the
payback. So after 6 years it will still cost a fortune to that uninsulated
structure., I saw no insulation in the roof. None whatsoever in the wall.
A total waste of time. and this sort of conversion gobbling energy should be
discouraged.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
chris French wrote:
snip
Seeing as the geothermal heat is 'free' (ok electricity is needed for
the heat pump), I can't see what the fuss if it consumes more energy
than needed. and if it pays itself back in 6 years seems good value to
me

But, it's not.

Let's be optimistic, and say that the heat pump takes 1Kwh to pump
7Kwh of heat. (about the theoretical maximum efficiency for pumping
from 0-40C.)

What? The best of them x 4. So 1 kW to get 4kW of heat. Some may be x 5 as
heat pumps are getting more efficient.

But, electricity is some 3-4 times dearer than gas.
So, unless you are comparing it with electric heating it's not looking
so rosy.

In the UK it is about the same as natural gas. The church was in Ireland and
fuel prices may be different. An Irish guys to give us a clue?

It's (eventually, assuming it lasts for ever) 7 times cheaper than
electricity.
But, it's only about 2 times cheaper than gas.

Payback can happen faster if energy prices rise (gas and electricity
will tend to rise together unless we go nuclear), but it will never
outperform adding insulation unless electricity is free.

I'll take a guess that the walls of the church are 75cm stone on average.
That's a R value of around .6, or a U value of 1.6W/m^2/K.
To halve the thermal loss you only need about 10-20mm extra insulation.