"Peter Watson" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know why wooden boxes fell out of favour? On a more general
point why was it comon to uses wooden boxes for light switches but metal
boxes for sockets (at least in my 1959 house)?

I thought at that time it was more common to make a hole in the skirting
board and screw a single socket directly to the wood at just the correct
height to stop a plug being used without putting massive strain on the flex.
Along with the then requirement to have three 4mm^2 cables twisted tightly
together and cut to the shortest possible length as to fit in the terminals.

--
Adam

In article , Harry
Bloomfield writes
DarkHorse laid this down on his screen :
I had another look, and I suppose they are 'box-like'. The lose one I
mentioned is badly split though, which makes it look more haphazard.

Is the cable brightly coloured plastic, or perhaps something much
older such
as dull coloured rubber or cable with a waxy cotton woven outer cover?

There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and a
yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out of
a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.

OK....

The wooden boxes suggest that the original installation was completed I
would guess sometime pre WWII. Down the walls to the switches there
will be metal conduits which has enabled them to rewire the lighting
circuits. The fact that there are earths provided which are sleaved
with green/yellow suggests it was rewired post about 1975 (anyone able
to confirm this?).

NICEIC newsletter (57 /58 iirc) chronicles the changes in wiring methods
to asist in dating the installation as required in their forms.

So the only thing which needs to be done to correct the obvious
problem, is for the wooden boxes to be replaced with proper metal
boxes. It might be worth chasing your landlord to get this done.


--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

"DarkHorse" wrote
| There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and
| a yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out
| of a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.

It sounds as though you have had a rewire reusing 'singles' in some existing
conduit; I wonder if the switches were originally round ones fitted on top
of circular conduit boxes, replaced with square ones perhaps in the 50s (I
have seen black bakelite square pattress switches) using wood plugs into the
wall to hold the switch, then subsequently replaced again with new switches
but the installer re-used the 1950s rewirer's wooden plugs or blocks. Shoddy
work but not necessarily criminal.

Incidentally, are you sure that conduit(tube)'s plastic? It might be fibre
which has started disintegrating.

| I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
| are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
| Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
| except to the lights.

Sounds like a split load consumer unit, again that's fairly modern.

| There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
| written on it.

Any indication who wrote it - if it's one of the council's own electricians
who also did the wiring, well, they'd pass their own work wouldn't they.

| If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
| willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
| installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
| with that.
| I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.

If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
applied.

Owain

PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains powered
smoke detectors.

"Owain" wrote:

"DarkHorse" wrote
| There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and
| a yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out
| of a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.

It sounds as though you have had a rewire reusing 'singles' in some existing
conduit; I wonder if the switches were originally round ones fitted on top
of circular conduit boxes, replaced with square ones perhaps in the 50s (I
have seen black bakelite square pattress switches) using wood plugs into the
wall to hold the switch, then subsequently replaced again with new switches
but the installer re-used the 1950s rewirer's wooden plugs or blocks. Shoddy
work but not necessarily criminal.

Incidentally, are you sure that conduit(tube)'s plastic? It might be fibre
which has started disintegrating.

It looks plastic to me. I can't see signs of disintegration.

| I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
| are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
| Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
| except to the lights.

Sounds like a split load consumer unit, again that's fairly modern.

| There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
| written on it.

Any indication who wrote it -

Nope.

if it's one of the council's own electricians
who also did the wiring, well, they'd pass their own work wouldn't they.

| If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
| willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
| installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
| with that.
| I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.

If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
applied.

Good idea, except I don't have a digital camera and have never
uploaded anything to any webspace!

Owain

PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains powered
smoke detectors.

Would you be surprised to learn that I don't even have battery
operated ones?

Is there a user-friendly site that lists requirements such as these
for rented properties?

DH

"DarkHorse" wrote
| PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains
| powered smoke detectors.
| Would you be surprised to learn that I don't even have battery
| operated ones?

The London Fire Brigade issued a report in 2001 which, for the first time,
investigated all fire deaths in London, ... 85% of these recorded deaths
took place in the home, and of those, 77% did not have a smoke alarm fitted.

In summary the study, which researched the Brigade's database of 27,000
fires, showed that you were more likely to die in a fire at your home if
you:
are over 60
are a smoker
enjoy a few evening drinks
live in Tower Hamlets, Brent or Westminster
do not own a smoke alarm
suffer from some kind of disability
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/fire_s...ty/fire_deaths.
asp



| Is there a user-friendly site that lists requirements such as these
| for rented properties?

It may not be compulsory unless your house is registered as a House of
Multiple Occupancy. However it is certainly good practice, and encouraged by
the Government's Guidance Note:

What type of alarms should local authorities provide?
10. The Approved Document to Part B of the Building Regulations recommends
the provision of hard-wired smoke alarms in new dwellings and dwellings
where a loft conversion is to be made. This Department recommends that,
wherever possible, local authorities should seek to provide hard-wired
alarms in their dwellings. This would most sensibly be achieved as part of
large scale improvement programmes.
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...page/odpm_hous
e_602533.hcsp
or Home Housing Information for local authority housing officers Other
housing policies Smoke alarms in local authority housing


However, whatever possessions the tenant moves in with, the landlord will
always be responsible for safety involving gas installations and appliances.
These must be subject to annual safety checks, with proper records kept.
Regulations also cover the safety of electrical installations and appliances
while common sense dictates that carbon monoxide and smoke detectors are
fitted in all let property.
http://www.arla.co.uk/btl/furnishnotfurnish.htm


The Accredited Property Scheme covers all types of private rented property
from single houses, to flats, and all types of houses in multiple
occupation, including student accommodation. The relevant standards are
based primarily upon existing legislation plus facilities normally expected
in the 21st Century and are therefore considered a satisfactory decent
standard. The scheme is entirely voluntary.
Smoke alarms should be provided in all rented accommodation. However, the
standard for multi-let properties, because of the higher risk, requires the
provision of adequate means of alarm; fire protection and escape route for
tenants. The precise specification will be determined following an
inspection by an Environmental Health Officer/ Fire Protection Officer
depending on the circumstances. Fire precautions must be well maintained and
alarm systems tested regularly. Requirements will include either a Part 6
mains interlinked or L2 systems
http://www.chestercc.gov.uk/communit...ives/Accredite
dprop.html


The Housing Act 1985 requires all accommodation to be maintained to a
reasonable standard and be fit for occupation. If you encounter any of the
following problems it is likely that your property does not meet these
minimum standards:
.... dangerous gas or electric supplies and appliances
If you do experience problems such as these, first notify the owner/agent
in writing asking for immediate action/repair. If, after a reasonable time,
the problem has not been remedied, contact the Private Sector Housing Team,
Environment and Development Department at the local council offices where
you can obtain relevant advice.
http://www.dmu.ac.uk/study/student_s...ty_home.jsp?Co
mponentID=934&SourcePageID=927


Shelterline Housing Helpline = 0808 800 4444
Under the Housing Act 1985, all houses must be fit for human habitation.
....
Tell the landlord about your worries in a letter, asking for a response
within a reasonable period (e.g. two weeks). Remind the landlord of the
common law ‘duty of care’ to ensure that occupants are safe. ...
as a result of your landlord neglecting to carry out the duties set out
in this leaflet, then you may be able to take action in the county court
under the Defective Premises Act 1972, Occupiers Liability Act 1957 or
common law negligence. ...
http://www.shelternet.org.uk/files/d...ire_safety.pdf



Owain

In message ,
"DarkHorse" wrote:

"Owain" wrote:


If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
applied.

Good idea, except I don't have a digital camera and have never
uploaded anything to any webspace!


Take an ordinary photograph and have it processed at somewhere like
Boots or Jessops (or Bonusprint for postal) who will also scan the
negatives and give you a CD for an extra quid or two if you ask them
nicely.

:-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Syntax is another name for conscience money.

In article , Harry
Bloomfield writes
DarkHorse wrote :
Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
mentioned below!

I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
in with slightly oversized screws.

This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.

Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.

Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.

Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it,


Surface boxes are plastic, fastfix flush boxes are plastic and flange
boxes are plastic.
I think you mean if there is a metal box behind a switch it must be
earthed.

Council properties usually have surface mounted accessories anyway.

--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

In other words the accessories are fitted to the flush back box with
woodscrews or self-tappers instead of the correct 3.5mm raised
countersunk machine screws.

Possibly a previous tenant.

Check on or around your consumer unit (fuseboard) for a label saying the
installation has been tested to the current edition of the wiring
regulations. If there's not one there or the date is way before you
moved in (leaving plenty time for the council to have fixed up the house
and re-let it to you) advise the council that the installation wasn't
tested. They may test your premises. This may take the best part of a
day including non-wiring repairs

One of their electricians will have to fit a new backbox if the threads
don't re-tap.

Be prepared for a bit of a wait as Council tradesmen are quite busy,
though this is near year end and budgets are spent and the rental income
doesn't come anywhere near the costs of repairs to council housing
stock.

In article , DarkHorse
writes
Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
mentioned below!

I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
in with slightly oversized screws.

This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.

Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.

Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.

This explains why the 'wrong' screws were used, i.e. they are pointy
at the end (so that they can screw into the bits of wood) instead of
flat.

At least one of the switches is definitely lose, and I'm sure the
landlord (i.e. the Council) would agree to fix that, but it would be
great if I could get them to 'tidy up' all the other switches too.

However, I'm sure they will only do it if the present set-up
contravenes safety regulations or 'good-practice'.

Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?

thanks
DH

--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

Z wrote:

In other words the accessories are fitted to the flush back box with
woodscrews or self-tappers instead of the correct 3.5mm raised
countersunk machine screws.

Possibly a previous tenant.

Check on or around your consumer unit (fuseboard) for a label saying the
installation has been tested to the current edition of the wiring
regulations. If there's not one there or the date is way before you
moved in (leaving plenty time for the council to have fixed up the house
and re-let it to you) advise the council that the installation wasn't
tested. They may test your premises. This may take the best part of a
day including non-wiring repairs

On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
ammended..' etc.

One of their electricians will have to fit a new backbox if the threads
don't re-tap.

Be prepared for a bit of a wait as Council tradesmen are quite busy,
though this is near year end and budgets are spent and the rental income
doesn't come anywhere near the costs of repairs to council housing
stock.

DarkHorse writes

Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
mentioned below!

I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
in with slightly oversized screws.

This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.

Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.

Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.

This explains why the 'wrong' screws were used, i.e. they are pointy
at the end (so that they can screw into the bits of wood) instead of
flat.

At least one of the switches is definitely lose, and I'm sure the
landlord (i.e. the Council) would agree to fix that, but it would be
great if I could get them to 'tidy up' all the other switches too.

However, I'm sure they will only do it if the present set-up
contravenes safety regulations or 'good-practice'.

Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?

thanks
DH

--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

There were no Zeds so I thought I'd better put a couple in there!

cheers
DH

"DarkHorse" wrote
| On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
| test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
| is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
| certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
| after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
| 'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
| ammended..' etc.

27.-(1) No supplier shall be compelled to commence or, subject to
regulation 28, to continue to give a supply to any consumer unless he is
reasonably satisfied that each part of the consumer's installation is so
constructed, installed, protected and used, so far as is reasonably
practicable, as to prevent danger and not to cause undue interference with
the supplier's system or with the supply to others.
(2) Any consumer's installation which complies with the provisions of
the Institution of Electrical Engineers Regulations shall be deemed to
comply with the requirements of this regulation as to safety.

Note that the requirements of (1) are considerably less onerous than the IEE
Regulations.

Owain

In article ,
"DarkHorse" writes:

On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
ammended..' etc.

Amusing - The Electricity Supply Regulations 1988 were entirely
revoked on 31 Jan 2003, 3 months before your London Electricity
certificate was issued ;-)

Anyway, Regulation 27 just says that a supplier is not compelled
to provide a supply if they are concerned that the installation
might not be safe or might cause indue interferance to others.
An installation which conforms to Wiring Regs is deemed to be
considered safe for this purpose.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article , DarkHorse
writes
Z wrote:

In other words the accessories are fitted to the flush back box with
woodscrews or self-tappers instead of the correct 3.5mm raised
countersunk machine screws.

Possibly a previous tenant.

Check on or around your consumer unit (fuseboard) for a label saying the
installation has been tested to the current edition of the wiring
regulations. If there's not one there or the date is way before you
moved in (leaving plenty time for the council to have fixed up the house
and re-let it to you) advise the council that the installation wasn't
tested. They may test your premises. This may take the best part of a
day including non-wiring repairs

On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
ammended..' etc.

One of their electricians will have to fit a new backbox if the threads
don't re-tap.

Be prepared for a bit of a wait as Council tradesmen are quite busy,
though this is near year end and budgets are spent and the rental income
doesn't come anywhere near the costs of repairs to council housing
stock.

DarkHorse writes

Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
mentioned below!

I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
in with slightly oversized screws.

This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.

Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.

Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.

This explains why the 'wrong' screws were used, i.e. they are pointy
at the end (so that they can screw into the bits of wood) instead of
flat.

At least one of the switches is definitely lose, and I'm sure the
landlord (i.e. the Council) would agree to fix that, but it would be
great if I could get them to 'tidy up' all the other switches too.

However, I'm sure they will only do it if the present set-up
contravenes safety regulations or 'good-practice'.

Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?

thanks
DH

--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.

There were no Zeds so I thought I'd better put a couple in there!

cheers
DH

Thankz,
MY spam filter prevented me mailing another NG.
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.