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On 03/06/2021 13:38, Fredxx wrote:

I would recommend what3words for those circumstances. As an aside it
also integrates with SatNavs for those difficult places to find.


Why not get the phone to broadcast its location to a cloud service. 999
responders could read the location from the phone number.

Actually it appears this is already the case:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/google-now-automatically-provides-location-8502153

As a software developer I found it was normally easier to get
applications to talk directly to each other than handle issues related
to the various ways a human can mess up inputting information. The more
times software expected human input the more this was true.
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In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 19:56:36 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 17:08:28 +0100, Fredxx wrote:


I would recommend what3words for those circumstances. As an aside it
also integrates with SatNavs for those difficult places to find.


Although it appears it is not infallible:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797

The idea is that a simple misspelling of one of the words will be
obvious.
If the words suggest a different country then you ask again until it's
consistent with the known area / land features.


I've seen at least one example where the two locations were close enough
to be plausible, but far enough away to be dangerous.


Try:

///ashes.string.take

and

///ashes.string.takes

9 miles apart




No system is infallible, but how many people understand OS grid ref.
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In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 13:38:46 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

I would recommend what3words for those circumstances. As an aside it
also integrates with SatNavs for those difficult places to find.


Lots of discussions about the problems inherent in what3words.

Learn the NATO phonetic alphabet.
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In article , Pancho
writes
On 03/06/2021 13:38, Fredxx wrote:

I would recommend what3words for those circumstances. As an aside it
also integrates with SatNavs for those difficult places to find.


Why not get the phone to broadcast its location to a cloud service. 999
responders could read the location from the phone number.

Actually it appears this is already the case:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/google...ovides-locatio
n-8502153

As a software developer I found it was normally easier to get
applications to talk directly to each other than handle issues related
to the various ways a human can mess up inputting information. The more
times software expected human input the more this was true.

GIGO
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On Fri, 04 Jun 2021 11:23:12 +0100, bert wrote:

I've seen at least one example where the two locations were close
enough to be plausible, but far enough away to be dangerous.


Try:

///ashes.string.take

and

///ashes.string.takes

9 miles apart

No system is infallible, but how many people understand OS grid ref.


As I said earlier, pluscodes are simple:

https://maps.google.com/pluscodes/

e.g.

9C3XGV24+5G

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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 14:28:30 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 June 2021 at 21:21:37 UTC+1, NY wrote:
I was impressed when my wife called in an accident while we were driving on
the A1 a few years ago. The emergency operator didn't need to be told where
we were and said "ah yes, I can see you've just passed the turning to Kirk
Smeaton, heading north". The phone had its GPS turned on (we were recording
a track on Viewranger) so I wonder if the location is automatically passed
to the 999 operator if GPS is enabled.


Yes, it's called Advanced Mobile Location (AML). It's been supported in the UK for a number of years now as BT (who run the first line operator assistance centres) were one of its developers.

Google's implementation (in Android) is called Emergency Location Service (ELS) and there's a bit of info about how it works he

https://crisisresponse.google/emerge.../how-it-works/

It seems that it does rely on you having mobile data on your phone
turned on.
As I'm just on a payg arrangement (not even a contract) I don't
normally have it switched on, ever since on holiday one year and
loosing 40 of credit overnight when the bloody phone decided to do a
software update over a slow link (cruise ship).
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"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/06/2021 21:20, NY wrote:

snipped

I was impressed when my wife called in an accident while we were driving
on the A1 a few years ago. The emergency operator didn't need to be told
where we were and said "ah yes, I can see you've just passed the turning
to Kirk Smeaton, heading north". The phone had its GPS turned on (we were
recording a track on Viewranger) so I wonder if the location is
automatically passed to the 999 operator if GPS is enabled. It was too
precise to be based on triangulation of various in-range mobile phone
masts. If he'd quoted the location of the accident, I'd have said that
someone else had phoned in already, but he told us where we were at the
time of the call, which was a bit further north, allowing for delays in
"d'you think we ought to phone 999?", finding the phone and in dialling
999.


I'm sure your phone GPS hadn't told them. I expect they could see you on
the cameras, maybe your phone number had let them guess at your
numberplate (from tax renewal on-line), and one of the ANPR cameras
allowed them to home in on the vehicle.


Yes, that's plausible. But if so, it all happened very quickly:

999: Hello, which service do you need.
Wife: Police
999: [pause of a couple of seconds] Hello, police emergency.
Wife: I'm reporting a car crash northbound A1. We're...
999: Yes, we can see you've just passed the turning to Kirk Smeaton.

So within about 10 seconds my my wife dialling 999, the police operator had
identified our location, either by GPS or by relating her phone number to
her car and then seeing that car on one of the ANPR cameras.

How ever they did it, it was impressive.



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On Friday, 4 June 2021 at 12:57:21 UTC+1, Davidm wrote:

It seems that it does rely on you having mobile data on your phone
turned on.
As I'm just on a payg arrangement (not even a contract) I don't
normally have it switched on, ever since on holiday one year and
loosing £40 of credit overnight when the bloody phone decided to do a
software update over a slow link (cruise ship).


It uses the data transmission functionality of SMS i.e. it is more akin to a 'text message' (but one that won't appear in the user-facing message store) and hence requires only the signalling path of the base GSM service rather than the packet switched data extensions which, as you say, might well be turned off or otherwise not available.
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"Davidm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 14:28:30 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 June 2021 at 21:21:37 UTC+1, NY wrote:
I was impressed when my wife called in an accident while we were driving
on
the A1 a few years ago. The emergency operator didn't need to be told
where
we were and said "ah yes, I can see you've just passed the turning to
Kirk
Smeaton, heading north". The phone had its GPS turned on (we were
recording
a track on Viewranger) so I wonder if the location is automatically
passed
to the 999 operator if GPS is enabled.


Yes, it's called Advanced Mobile Location (AML). It's been supported in
the UK for a number of years now as BT (who run the first line operator
assistance centres) were one of its developers.

Google's implementation (in Android) is called Emergency Location Service
(ELS) and there's a bit of info about how it works he

https://crisisresponse.google/emerge.../how-it-works/

It seems that it does rely on you having mobile data on your phone
turned on.
As I'm just on a payg arrangement (not even a contract) I don't
normally have it switched on, ever since on holiday one year and
loosing 40 of credit overnight when the bloody phone decided to do a
software update over a slow link (cruise ship).


No, it says it can use either HTTPS (which needs mobile data) or Data SMS
(which I'm presuming doesn't - unless *data* SMS uses a different carrier to
ordinary SMS).

It says the "Location is computed on the handset" - does this mean that GPS
must be turned on, or does it use some other technology? Maybe ELS
temporarily turns on GPS even if it is turned off in the phone's pull-down
menu of receivers (GPS, Wifi, mobile data, Bluetooth).

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On Friday, 4 June 2021 at 14:19:20 UTC+1, NY wrote:

It says the "Location is computed on the handset" - does this mean that GPS
must be turned on, or does it use some other technology? Maybe ELS
temporarily turns on GPS even if it is turned off in the phone's pull-down
menu of receivers (GPS, Wifi, mobile data, Bluetooth).


On Android the location API provides a 'fused' location service i.e. it combines information from multiple sources to improve/maintain accuracy depending on what sources - such as GPS, known WiFi APs, GSM cell IDs etc - are available. It'll temporarily override any Location setting you might have previously set, unless you've disabled the ELS functionality entirely whose setting that will be honoured. The mobile provider might still provide cell tower triangulation location information but it is much less accurate (particularly if there aren't enough visible towers to triangulate against).
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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
I've seen at least one example where the two locations were close enough
to be plausible, but far enough away to be dangerous.


Try:

///ashes.string.take

and

///ashes.string.takes

9 miles apart


**** house design using both take and takes.


Very much the case. Plurals and (near) homonyms should not be in the
dictionary. And even if they are, they most definitely should not be within
a few miles of each other - they should be a "stupid distance" apart so any
ambiguity or mishearing makes it very obvious which is the right one.


I still like numerical references (OS and lat/long) because you can relate
two locations: AB123456 and AB124456 are 100 metres apart in the east-west
direction, and AB123456 and AB123457 are 100 metres apart in the north-south
direction.

They are also public-domain rather than being proprietary, so they are
available, both for encoding and decoding, to everyone for free.

For premises (as opposed to road locations that are not in a built-up
areas), UK postcodes are a good way of getting to within a hundred metres or
so, apart from in sparsely-populated areas where the accuracy is less.
That's close enough to bring up a pointer on a map from which precise
directions can be given verbally.

I suppose the perfect system would include checksums so it is obvious if a
digit has been transposed or mis-heard, so the operator can ask again.

I taught myself the radio phonetic alphabet, which should avoid mis-hearing
problems (M versus N, P versus D versus T). Likewise I would emphasis the
difference between "fife" and "niner".

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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:39:13 +0100, Pancho
wrote:


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-57335740

A vet has drowned in her car.

Astonishingly in my car there appears no way to get out from inside if
it is locked and/or the electrics are off.

Apparently the answer is to have a device to break the side door glass.

I was looking at:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wupettier-Portable-Window-Breaker-Seatbelt/dp/B08MFBZ2GV/ref=psdc_2481712031_t1_B08XNRVC3G

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Emergency-Cutter-Window-Hammer/dp/B073J92G1J/ref=psdc_2481712031_t3_B00K63TG9C

Do they work?, my gut feeling is the hammer would be best.


The first, the spring loaded one, or a normal spring loaded centre
punch such as https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur...e-punch/p69309

are better than a hammer and will shatter a side window effectively
and with little effort.

A seat belt cutter is of limited value. Most people are used to
releasing a normal seat buckle but will never have used a belt cutter
of any sort.






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On 04/06/2021 16:41, Peter Parry wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:39:13 +0100, Pancho
wrote:


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-57335740

A vet has drowned in her car.

Astonishingly in my car there appears no way to get out from inside if
it is locked and/or the electrics are off.

Apparently the answer is to have a device to break the side door glass.

I was looking at:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wupettier-Portable-Window-Breaker-Seatbelt/dp/B08MFBZ2GV/ref=psdc_2481712031_t1_B08XNRVC3G

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Emergency-Cutter-Window-Hammer/dp/B073J92G1J/ref=psdc_2481712031_t3_B00K63TG9C

Do they work?, my gut feeling is the hammer would be best.


The first, the spring loaded one, or a normal spring loaded centre
punch such as https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur...e-punch/p69309

are better than a hammer and will shatter a side window effectively
and with little effort.

A seat belt cutter is of limited value. Most people are used to
releasing a normal seat buckle but will never have used a belt cutter
of any sort.


I would agree with you from a lone driver POV, but with rear seatbelts
and children with buckles that are difficult to locate, especially with
child seats such I think the cutter may have value. Especially the pull
variety. The push style would be utterly useless.
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You place the tip on a the glass (in normal use, on metal) and push. The
body moves down around 1/4" and then the stored energy is released into
the tip - hard enough to indent steel and more than enough to shatter
toughened glass.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txh0lOVjN-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjAKTIYKtA

are a couple of American videos showing one working.





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"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 13:38:46 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

I would recommend what3words for those circumstances. As an aside it
also integrates with SatNavs for those difficult places to find.


Lots of discussions about the problems inherent in what3words.

Learn the NATO phonetic alphabet.


Wouldn't need to if they had chosen their keywords
better and didn't use plurals as well as singulars.

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"Davidm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 14:28:30 -0700 (PDT), Mathew Newton
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 June 2021 at 21:21:37 UTC+1, NY wrote:
I was impressed when my wife called in an accident while we were driving
on
the A1 a few years ago. The emergency operator didn't need to be told
where
we were and said "ah yes, I can see you've just passed the turning to
Kirk
Smeaton, heading north". The phone had its GPS turned on (we were
recording
a track on Viewranger) so I wonder if the location is automatically
passed
to the 999 operator if GPS is enabled.


Yes, it's called Advanced Mobile Location (AML). It's been supported in
the UK for a number of years now as BT (who run the first line operator
assistance centres) were one of its developers.

Google's implementation (in Android) is called Emergency Location Service
(ELS) and there's a bit of info about how it works he

https://crisisresponse.google/emerge.../how-it-works/


It seems that it does rely on you having mobile data on your phone turned
on.


No it doesn't with the enhanced 999 service etc.

As I'm just on a payg arrangement (not even a contract) I don't
normally have it switched on, ever since on holiday one year and
loosing 40 of credit overnight when the bloody phone decided
to do a software update over a slow link (cruise ship).


Better designed phones allow you to specify that they don't
update using mobile data, only when wifi is available.

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Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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On 03/06/2021 13:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2021 13:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 12:39:13 +0100, Pancho wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-57335740

A vet has drowned in her car.

Astonishingly in my car there appears no way to get out from inside if
it is locked and/or the electrics are off.

Apparently the answer is to have a device to break the side door glass.

I was looking at:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wupettier-P...r-Seatbelt/dp/

B08MFBZ2GV/ref=psdc_2481712031_t1_B08XNRVC3G

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasic...Window-Hammer/

dp/B073J92G1J/ref=psdc_2481712031_t3_B00K63TG9C

Do they work?, my gut feeling is the hammer would be best.


Irrespective of that, escaping from a submerged (or submerging) car isn't
a walk in the park. It may well be that the driver could have perished
with the windows broken anyway.

The stock advice is to open the windows as soon as you are in a flood.
then if you cant open the doors wait until the water is inside the car
to the same level as outside

THEN you can open the door

Of course the doors may not have been locked, or they may have been damaged



My van goes into eco mode a few minutes after the engine is turned off
(and stalling it does the same thing - I tried it today to see what
would happen after seeing this thread).

The electric windows would not open in eco mode.

You can open the doors with the door handle but probably not if under
water pressure.

So yes windows down ASAP.

It was a tragic accident but you cannot help feeling that some of these
drivers are taking the **** out of the BMW owner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3Vn...RSBENGREGER S








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On 04/06/2021 00:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"newshound" wrote in message



I'm sure your phone GPS hadn't told them.


You have no basis for that surety, some 999 systems can do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1

This is by tower location, not by GPS
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"newshound" wrote in message
...
On 04/06/2021 00:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"newshound" wrote in message



I'm sure your phone GPS hadn't told them.


You have no basis for that surety, some 999 systems can do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1

This is by tower location, not by GPS


There is another system that uses GPS.

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