People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 26 May 2021 at 21:51:32 BST, "Tim+" wrote:

People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.

Tim

They make special GPO-style steel cabinets to do this with oil boilers, I've
no idea if you can do it with gas ones.

--
Roger Hayter

On 26/05/2021 21:51, Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.

Tim


In terms of "legality", I don't think you'd be breaking any laws. But
there would be no warranty on the boiler if not installed by an
"approved installer". You would also probably have problems with your
insurer were to succeed in blowing up or burning down your house. The
fact of the boiler house being detached may not prevent this.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On Wed, 26 May 2021 22:29:35 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 26/05/2021 21:51, Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to “outstall” a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of “outstalling”.

Tim


In terms of "legality", I don't think you'd be breaking any laws. But
there would be no warranty on the boiler if not installed by an
"approved installer". You would also probably have problems with your
insurer were to succeed in blowing up or burning down your house. The
fact of the boiler house being detached may not prevent this.

Although you may not be there to claim *anyway* if the boiler is on
the outside of your house and the exhaust flue on the inside. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 26 May 2021 22:29:35 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 26/05/2021 21:51, Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to “outstall” a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of “outstalling”.

Tim


In terms of "legality", I don't think you'd be breaking any laws. But
there would be no warranty on the boiler if not installed by an
"approved installer". You would also probably have problems with your
insurer were to succeed in blowing up or burning down your house. The
fact of the boiler house being detached may not prevent this.

Although you may not be there to claim *anyway* if the boiler is on
the outside of your house and the exhaust flue on the inside. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 26/05/2021 22:24, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 26 May 2021 at 21:51:32 BST, "Tim+" wrote:

People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.


They make special GPO-style steel cabinets to do this with oil boilers, I've
no idea if you can do it with gas ones.

We're in a very rural area, so no gas mains. When we had our heating
system replaced (had been a combination of an old multi-fuel Rayburn,
and a back boiler in the living room), we opted for an oil fuel outside
boiler.

I'd not really worry myself. Surely there have to be easy to follow
instructions, all markets are not as mega regulated as ours after all.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to "outstall" a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of "outstalling".

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to ”outstall• a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of ”outstalling•.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo

On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo


Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to ”outstall• a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of ”outstalling•.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.


Im not asking about unsafe work, Im asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isnt installed inside a
house.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo


Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.
Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

Theo

Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo


Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.
Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

Theo


What event? Im asking a hypothetical question as to what constitutes
€œinstallation€� and whether an €œoutstallation€� would be exempt from normal
building regs etc.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article ,
Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

;-)

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo


Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.
Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

I'd guess most would be competent at plumbing work/general DIY before
attempting a boiler self install? Of course that only applies to the
reasonably sane.

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to ”outstall• a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of ”outstalling•.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I‘m not asking about unsafe work, I‘m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn‘t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?

--
*The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/05/2021 21:51, Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.

Tim


Most likely you could get the boiler installation checked by someone
with Gas qualifications. I have installed two gas boilers myself. When
I commisioned the 2nd one it was the night of the Guildford IRA bomb and
I could smell gas so explosions were on my mind. I spent ages checking
my pipe work but it was fine. I evenually found that it was the new
Ideal Standard boiler itself that was leaking. I tightened a nut which
held a small pipe in place and the leak stopped.


--
Michael Chare

On 27/05/2021 13:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to €�outstall€¢ a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of €�outstalling€¢.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I€˜m not asking about unsafe work, I€˜m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn€˜t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I took Tim to be asking what the law /is/ rather than what you (or
anyone else) think it ought to be. And I at least don't find all the
regs easy. E.g. the definition of "building" in the regulations is
narrower than in the Act: "any permanent or temporary building but not
any other kind of structure or erection". If you can see clearly the
dividing line there I'll gladly call you Gunga Din.

But I don't think it matters for Tim's question because the building
notice requirement is triggered by "the provision or extension of a
controlled service or fitting in or in connection with a building" (reg.
3(1)(b)).

A "controlled service or fitting€� is a service or fitting in relation to
which Part G, H, J, L or P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement so that
includes boilers etc.

And the use of "or in connection with" seems to me to leave little room
for doubt that even a boiler in a tent is caught if it serves the house.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to ”outstall• a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of ”outstalling•.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I‘m not asking about unsafe work, I‘m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn‘t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing in
an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Robin wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to €�outstall€¢ a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of €�outstalling€¢.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I€˜m not asking about unsafe work, I€˜m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn€˜t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I took Tim to be asking what the law /is/ rather than what you (or
anyone else) think it ought to be. And I at least don't find all the
regs easy. E.g. the definition of "building" in the regulations is
narrower than in the Act: "any permanent or temporary building but not
any other kind of structure or erection". If you can see clearly the
dividing line there I'll gladly call you Gunga Din.

But I don't think it matters for Tim's question because the building
notice requirement is triggered by "the provision or extension of a
controlled service or fitting in or in connection with a building" (reg.
3(1)(b)).

A "controlled service or fitting€� is a service or fitting in relation to
which Part G, H, J, L or P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement so that
includes boilers etc.

And the use of "or in connection with" seems to me to leave little room
for doubt that even a boiler in a tent is caught if it serves the house.


Thank you, some sense at last! ;-)

Well, possibly nonsense but it clarifies the official position. In
practice I dont suppose anyone is going to install a boiler at the end of
the garden to avoid building regs but I thought it would be interesting to
find out if it did.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to •outstall� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of •outstalling�.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I�m not asking about unsafe work, I�m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn�t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I took Tim to be asking what the law /is/ rather than what you (or
anyone else) think it ought to be. And I at least don't find all the
regs easy. E.g. the definition of "building" in the regulations is
narrower than in the Act: "any permanent or temporary building but not
any other kind of structure or erection". If you can see clearly the
dividing line there I'll gladly call you Gunga Din.

But I don't think it matters for Tim's question because the building
notice requirement is triggered by "the provision or extension of a
controlled service or fitting in or in connection with a building" (reg.
3(1)(b)).

A "controlled service or fitting• is a service or fitting in relation to
which Part G, H, J, L or P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement so that
includes boilers etc.

And the use of "or in connection with" seems to me to leave little room
for doubt that even a boiler in a tent is caught if it serves the house.


My point is either you are competent to DIY install a boiler or not. Some
claim you can DIY some of it but not the gas, all of it, or none of it.
And of course the likes of Gas Safe are out to protect those who fund its
interests.

So looking for some exemption in the regs seems to me silly.

It's not a footie game, etc. If you are truly safe/competent at all
aspects of plumbing, then installing a boiler is not a hard task. If not,
best to leave it to one who is.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/05/2021 21:51, Tim+ wrote:

People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas boiler
oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house insurance etc.

Installing any thermal appliance tends to come under part L of the
building regs these days in much the same was as changing a thermal
element (i.e. rebuilding a bit of wall, of adding DG, or changing
insulation levels), or installing a hot water cylinder or adding a new
circuit etc. So in that sense, while not a non issue, its not really a
show stopper. Building control departments have a limited window of
opportunity to take enforcement action, and its typically something they
only do when they need to protect the public from a particularly
dangerous situation, not for lack of appropriate paperwork. A
competently installed boiler is not even something they would have
visibility of.

Insurance - might be worth checking your policy, but I have not seen
anything that bars claims for DIY related failures in any of mine.

IME the few DIYers who are prepared to do gas work are usually very well
up on the requirements and have the skills. Some may work with a tame
registered installer to do the final testing and sign off.

However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
with just the water pipes entering your property, would that avoid all the
potential issues associated with a self install?

Can't see it makes any difference at all.

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about the
legality of €œoutstalling€�.

Same as installing IMHO.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/05/2021 12:54, Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo


Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.

While one can apply Dunning Kruger to many situations, I get the
impression that when it comes to gas work, joe public is mostly of the
opinion that they are not "allowed to do gas". It generally requires a
much deeper level of understanding to identify the nuance there, and
know when that rule of thumb might not be valid.

Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

Not sure there is really an "event" here...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to ”outstall• a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with
a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of ”outstalling•.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I‘m not asking about unsafe work, I‘m asking whether gas safe rules
and building control rules apply to a boiler that isn‘t installed
inside a house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing
in an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Not so. I think you might find it hard to find a boiler suitable for
installing outside. So any form of building that shields it from the
weather etc could do a lot of damage if it blew up.

--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/05/2021 13:05, Tim+ wrote:
Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo

Perhaps, but since they won't pay out it is somewhat irrelevant.

Shockwaves from an explosion can still do a lot of damage. Neighbours
will also have a valid claim against anyone whose boiler explodes.

Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.
Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

Theo

Headed for a Darwin award usually unless they really do know what they
are doing (in which case they could install it properly).

What event? Im asking a hypothetical question as to what constitutes
€œinstallation€� and whether an €œoutstallation€� would be exempt from normal
building regs etc.

You will only find out when your "safe" gas installation fails and your
insurer's loss adjusters laugh in your face. It happened near me and
what was left of the house afterwards remained as charred and blackened
warning for would be gas DIYers for many years afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellerbeck

Telephone kiosks used to explode with monotonous regularity in the good
old days. Gas leaks found their way into telecoms ducts and sparks from
the old pulse dialing mechanism would eventually provide the spark. It
was particularly bad after the conversion to natural gas which was drier
than towns gas started causing the joint seals to contract.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing
in an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Not so. I think you might find it hard to find a boiler suitable for
installing outside. So any form of building that shields it from the
weather etc could do a lot of damage if it blew up.


Clearly youve not understood my question at all. Feel free to cease
€œcontributing€�.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 27/05/2021 16:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to €¢outstallÂ� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with a
self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of €¢outstallingÂ�.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I�m not asking about unsafe work, I�m asking whether gas safe rules and
building control rules apply to a boiler that isn�t installed inside a
house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I took Tim to be asking what the law /is/ rather than what you (or
anyone else) think it ought to be. And I at least don't find all the
regs easy. E.g. the definition of "building" in the regulations is
narrower than in the Act: "any permanent or temporary building but not
any other kind of structure or erection". If you can see clearly the
dividing line there I'll gladly call you Gunga Din.

But I don't think it matters for Tim's question because the building
notice requirement is triggered by "the provision or extension of a
controlled service or fitting in or in connection with a building" (reg.
3(1)(b)).

A "controlled service or fitting€¢ is a service or fitting in relation to
which Part G, H, J, L or P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement so that
includes boilers etc.

And the use of "or in connection with" seems to me to leave little room
for doubt that even a boiler in a tent is caught if it serves the house.


My point is either you are competent to DIY install a boiler or not. Some
claim you can DIY some of it but not the gas, all of it, or none of it.
And of course the likes of Gas Safe are out to protect those who fund its
interests.

So looking for some exemption in the regs seems to me silly.

You are entitled to think that. But it's not what you said.

And while you don't see that it makes any difference if work requires a
building notice or self-certification I do. E.g. if someone is thinking
of selling a property then it might make good sense - if it were
possible without much extra cost - to avoid the cost of a building
notice or the cost/bother of inspection/insurance when the buyer finds
there's no completion certificate. So I don't see that it's necessarily
a silly question.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing
in an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Not so. I think you might find it hard to find a boiler suitable for
installing outside. So any form of building that shields it from the
weather etc could do a lot of damage if it blew up.


Clearly youve not understood my question at all. Feel free to cease
€œcontributing€�.

Your OP said:

quote
However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
/quote

Dave is answering the part of your question about installing a boiler
outside. It's common with oil boilers but I've never seen a gas boiler
designed to be installed outside. If it's not designed for it, the
installer is not installing according to the manufacturer's instructions
which would be a building control fail.

In any kind of structure there's still the risk of gas buildup if improperly
installed. I don't know how much ventilation would mitigate that. You
could do the calculations and ask the BCO to do a risk assessment I suppose.
But I doubt it would get you off the hook as far as building regs goes.

Theo

On 27/05/2021 19:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
People often comment here on the inadvisability of installing a gas
boiler oneself due to building regs, possible effects on house
insurance etc.

However, if you were to €�outstall€¢ a boiler, I.e. fit it either on
the outside of your property or even in a detached
outhouse/ventilated bunker with just the water pipes entering your
property, would that avoid all the potential issues associated with
a self install?

Not intending to do this, well not yet anyway, just wondering about
the legality of €�outstalling€¢.

Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter where you put it.


I€˜m not asking about unsafe work, I€˜m asking whether gas safe rules
and building control rules apply to a boiler that isn€˜t installed
inside a house.

By that you're implying that an explosion in your garage etc is less
important than one in your house?


I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing
in an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Not so. I think you might find it hard to find a boiler suitable for
installing outside. So any form of building that shields it from the
weather etc could do a lot of damage if it blew up.

There is actually a resonable range of boilers designed for external
installation. They include their own enclosure and don't need another
building round them. Worceter do some, as do Grant, Rianni.

e.g.

https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/pr...ve-ii-external



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Theo wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

I know you like being deliberately obtuse but if I had meant installing
in an enclosed space like a garage I would have said so.

Not so. I think you might find it hard to find a boiler suitable for
installing outside. So any form of building that shields it from the
weather etc could do a lot of damage if it blew up.


Clearly youve not understood my question at all. Feel free to cease
€œcontributing€�.

Your OP said:

quote
However, if you were to €œoutstall€� a boiler, I.e. fit it either on the
outside of your property or even in a detached outhouse/ventilated bunker
/quote

Dave is answering the part of your question about installing a boiler
outside. It's common with oil boilers but I've never seen a gas boiler
designed to be installed outside. If it's not designed for it, the
installer is not installing according to the manufacturer's instructions
which would be a building control fail.

Externally fitted gas boilers are actually very common in some countries. I
saw lots in NZ.


In any kind of structure there's still the risk of gas buildup if improperly
installed.

Hardly beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight well ventilated
weather-proof enclosure that would avoid the build up of any gas if
required.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
In any kind of structure there's still the risk of gas buildup if improperly
installed.

Hardly beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight well ventilated
weather-proof enclosure that would avoid the build up of any gas if
required.

Since you are obviously an expert on all things boilers, why the question
in the first place?

--
*ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim+ wrote:
Hardly beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight well ventilated
weather-proof enclosure that would avoid the build up of any gas if
required.

Of course. But you're trying to do this without building control. The
point being that you can do whatever you like, but it's up to you to show
BCO that it's suitable. Anything that's 'special' is likely to require the
sort of one-off scrutiny you're trying to avoid.

A bit like how you /can/ install your own consumer unit, but you need to get
that signed off by the BCO to confirm it's up to scratch. Alternatively
there exists a competent persons scheme of people who do it day-in day-out
and can sign off their own work - this is often cheaper than BCO signoff and
is designed to handle the large volume of run-of-the-mill installs more
efficiently than getting a BCO out each time.

Theo

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
There is actually a resonable range of boilers designed for external
installation. They include their own enclosure and don't need another
building round them. Worceter do some, as do Grant, Rianni.

How would that compare, cost wise, against paying a pro to install a
conventional boiler indoors?

--
*When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/05/2021 11:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
There is actually a resonable range of boilers designed for external
installation. They include their own enclosure and don't need another
building round them. Worceter do some, as do Grant, Rianni.

How would that compare, cost wise, against paying a pro to install a
conventional boiler indoors?

The external boilers seem to be a bit more expensive than the internal
ones. For example checking one oil model of the WB shows it is about
£200 more for the external one.

If paying for installation, there might arguably be a little bit less
work doing an external one (no flue hole to core drill) assuming there
is already an adequate base in place for it to be sited on.

I guess the main attraction would be less space lost in a kitchen, and
less noise.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:29:33 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

I guess the main attraction would be less space lost in a kitchen, and
less noise.

A disadvantage could be any heat lost from the boiler itself,
especially in the winter, if there was no need to heat the outbuilding
(other than for it's own frost protection)?

The only heating my Mum has in her kitchen is the boiler and the oven
/ stove if on and the flow / return pipes 'passing though' [1]. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] And the fridge freezer?

On 28/05/2021 13:22, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:29:33 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

I guess the main attraction would be less space lost in a kitchen, and
less noise.

A disadvantage could be any heat lost from the boiler itself,
especially in the winter, if there was no need to heat the outbuilding
(other than for it's own frost protection)?

The only heating my Mum has in her kitchen is the boiler

Most boiler casings are internally in contact with outside air at
outside temperature. If sited in a kitchen they likely become a sink of
kitchen warmth.

and the oven
/ stove if on and the flow / return pipes 'passing though' [1]. ;-)

I've not felt the need to heat kitchens unless they're a kitchen-diner.

On 27/05/2021 20:31, Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/05/2021 13:05, Tim+ wrote:
Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 27/05/2021 11:35, Theo wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Don't see it makes any difference. Unsafe work is unsafe work no
matter
where you put it.

It might reduce the value of the claim the insurer declines to pay.

Theo

Perhaps, but since they won't pay out it is somewhat irrelevant.

Shockwaves from an explosion can still do a lot of damage. Neighbours
will also have a valid claim against anyone whose boiler explodes.

Claim for what ?. A safe installation by a competent person
is unlikely to cause any problems. All the incidents of
major gas explosions have been caused either by gross
incompetence, or intentional.

Everyone thinks they are competent and safe.
Even the people who are grossly incompetent.
An event like this is not a good way to find that out.

Theo

Headed for a Darwin award usually unless they really do know what they
are doing (in which case they could install it properly).

What event? Im asking a hypothetical question as to what constitutes
€œinstallation€� and whether an €œoutstallation€� would be exempt from normal
building regs etc.

You will only find out when your "safe" gas installation fails and your
insurer's loss adjusters laugh in your face. It happened near me and
what was left of the house afterwards remained as charred and blackened
warning for would be gas DIYers for many years afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellerbeck

Telephone kiosks used to explode with monotonous regularity in the good
old days. Gas leaks found their way into telecoms ducts and sparks from
the old pulse dialing mechanism would eventually provide the spark. It
was particularly bad after the conversion to natural gas which was drier
than towns gas started causing the joint seals to contract.


Boilers do not explode. Gas leaking into a compartment and reaching
the percentage that can explode, might, if a source of ignition happens.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
I've not felt the need to heat kitchens unless they're a kitchen-diner.

You don't make the early morning cuppa, then? ;-)

--
*I have never hated a man enough to give his diamonds back.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
In any kind of structure there's still the risk of gas buildup if
improperly
installed.

Hardly beyond the wit of man to design a lightweight well ventilated
weather-proof enclosure that would avoid the build up of any gas if
required.

Since you are obviously an expert on all things boilers, why the question
in the first place?

He was asking about the LAW, stupid.

On Sat, 29 May 2021 04:53:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/