We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a
heart attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a
premature death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front
of some dairy cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading
the mothers of calves they haven't really seen and that were often
killed or destined for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where
they are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide
them their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's
all acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m

On 02/03/2021 12:17, T i m wrote:

We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a
heart attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a
premature death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front
of some dairy cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading
the mothers of calves they haven't really seen and that were often
killed or destined for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where
they are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide
them their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's
all acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m

Seek help. Consult someone. Get (whatever(it is)) off your chest.

--
Spike

On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 12:17:54 +0000, T i m wrote:

We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a heart
attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a premature
death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front of some dairy
cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading the mothers of
calves they haven't really seen and that were often killed or destined
for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where they
are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide them
their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's all
acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m


........Jews and Muslims draining blood from live animals for Kosha and
Halal crap.

On 02/03/2021 12:17, T i m wrote:
We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a
heart attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a
premature death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front
of some dairy cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading
the mothers of calves they haven't really seen and that were often
killed or destined for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where
they are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide
them their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's
all acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m

but what can you do .....

On 02/03/2021 13:12, jon wrote:
On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 12:17:54 +0000, T i m wrote:

We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a heart
attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a premature
death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front of some dairy
cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading the mothers of
calves they haven't really seen and that were often killed or destined
for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where they
are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide them
their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's all
acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m


.......Jews and Muslims draining blood from live animals for Kosha and
Halal crap.

I'm Halal intolerant....

On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:16:40 +0000, Jimmy Stewart ... wrote:

On 02/03/2021 12:17, T i m wrote:
We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a
heart attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a premature
death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front of some
dairy cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading the mothers
of calves they haven't really seen and that were often killed or
destined for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where they
are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide them
their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's all
acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m

but what can you do .....

Like the child abuse of removing foreskins off little boys without their
permission....just ban it.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:12:17 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

snip

.......Jews and Muslims draining blood from live animals for Kosha and
Halal crap.

Yup, all / any exploitation of animals by anyone.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:16:40 +0000, "Jimmy Stewart ..."
wrote:

snip

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

What can I do? Well I can do whatever I can to not cause any animal
suffering and exploitation wherever possible and practical (and I am).

And if you were interested (and I know you aren't), you could *easily*
do the same.

Cheers, T i m

On 02/03/2021 13:49, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:16:40 +0000, "Jimmy Stewart ..."
wrote:

snip

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

What can I do? Well I can do whatever I can to not cause any animal
suffering and exploitation wherever possible and practical (and I am).

And if you were interested (and I know you aren't), you could *easily*
do the same.

Cheers, T i m

totly

On 02/03/2021 13:12, jon wrote:
On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 12:17:54 +0000, T i m wrote:

We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a heart
attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a premature
death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front of some dairy
cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading the mothers of
calves they haven't really seen and that were often killed or destined
for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where they
are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide them
their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's all
acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m


.......Jews and Muslims draining blood from live animals for Kosha and
Halal crap.

speciesism is avoiding meat in favour of innocent vegetables


--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On 02/03/2021 12:17, T i m wrote:
We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect and
(should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite in what they
eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

This includes a jockey sitting on a dead horse (that had died of a
heart attack whilst on the gallops (exploitation leading to a
premature death?)) to a TV reporter drinking some cows milk in front
of some dairy cows and saying 'cheers' to them (effectively goading
the mothers of calves they haven't really seen and that were often
killed or destined for a life of servitude as a 'milk machine').

It's a disconnection (cognitive dissonance) I see over and over and
often in people who are otherwise intelligent and empathetic where
they are either ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes to provide
them their animal based food or are fully aware and just think it's
all acceptable?

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ

Cheers, T i m

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:13:39 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

What can I do? Well I can do whatever I can to not cause any animal
suffering and exploitation wherever possible and practical (and I am).

And if you were interested (and I know you aren't), you could *easily*
do the same.

totly

And given you can be so selfish / biased against pretty well all of
your own species, there is little to no chance you would be any
different with any others. ;-(

Until it impacts you of course ... and I would have thought that given
your comment: "some of us are even luckier and are on borrowed
time..", you might have gained some actual humility. Alas no. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:44:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

speciesism is avoiding meat in favour of innocent vegetables

Nope, not in the example given / stated it isn't so once again you
manage to get something 100% wrong.

In this case the 'species' were the generally highly selective range
of often sentient creatures typically objectified / comodified by
humans for food and general exploitation.

And OOI, what do the animals you eat eat?

https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:57:02 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

You would think so eh, but that's exactly what we effectively do with
many live stock, especially those species no longer able to reproduce
on their own / naturally (because of how we have genetically mutilated
them).

https://ibb.co/GRyxDfs

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:44:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

speciesism is avoiding meat in favour of innocent vegetables

Nope, not in the example given / stated it isn't so once again you
manage to get something 100% wrong.

In this case the 'species' were the generally highly selective range
of often sentient creatures typically objectified / comodified by
humans for food and general exploitation.

And OOI, what do the animals you eat eat?

https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

For me, there is one principle that trumps all others: I like meat and I
hate vegetables.

Maybe if I had been raised a vegetarian or vegan I'd not hate vegetables as
much; obviously I wouldn't know what meat tastes like to compare with. Maybe
I'd still hate vegetables, in which case I may end up living on nuts and raw
carrots/celery (the two vegetables that I like, although as a snack rather
than cooked as an accompaniment to a meal).

Knowing that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier and kinder to animals
is very worthy, but it's not enough on its own to persuade me to change. I
like to enjoy my food - and I wouldn't enjoy a meat-free diet. Maybe I'd eat
less if I was restricted to food that I didn't like, which up to a point
would be a Good Thing ;-)

I support keeping animals in the best conditions possible (eg free-range,
not battery hens) while still raising them to eat or to produce milk, eggs,
leather, wool etc. I am opposed to hunting and fishing, except as a source
of food.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:57:02 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

You would think so eh, but that's exactly what we effectively do with
many live stock, especially those species no longer able to reproduce
on their own / naturally (because of how we have genetically mutilated
them).

I presume you're talking about artificial insemination. Isn't AI done to
avoid each farm having to keep (or have easy access to) a bull/ram, and
maybe to give genetic variation, rather than because species are unable to
breed naturally if they are allowed "access" to a bull/ram?

Going back a few hundred years, when most farms kept a male or each species
for breeding, I wonder if neighbouring farms shared/swapped males to give
greater genetic variation.

If keeping animals for food and other products became illegal, I wonder what
would happen to the animals that were still alive when the law was
introduced? Would they be killed so they didn't starve when their fields
were needed for additional crops? Would they be released into the wild and
allowed to breed at will, while still being kept out of crop fields. I
imagine if there was some advance notice of the law change, breeding would
stop and animals would gradually die out but not be replaced.

On 02/03/2021 15:30, NY wrote:
Knowing that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier and kinder to
animals is very worthy,

Or would be if it were remotely true. Farm animals have better lives
than wild animals mainly


--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

In message , NY writes
"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:57:02 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

You would think so eh, but that's exactly what we effectively do with
many live stock, especially those species no longer able to reproduce
on their own / naturally (because of how we have genetically mutilated
them).

I presume you're talking about artificial insemination. Isn't AI done
to avoid each farm having to keep (or have easy access to) a bull/ram,
and maybe to give genetic variation, rather than because species are
unable to breed naturally if they are allowed "access" to a bull/ram?
Waste of time giving Tim facts:-(

Going back a few hundred years, when most farms kept a male or each
species for breeding, I wonder if neighbouring farms shared/swapped
males to give greater genetic variation.

Still done but movement rules and regulations can interfere.

If keeping animals for food and other products became illegal, I wonder
what would happen to the animals that were still alive when the law was
introduced? Would they be killed so they didn't starve when their
fields were needed for additional crops? Would they be released into
the wild and allowed to breed at will, while still being kept out of
crop fields. I imagine if there was some advance notice of the law
change, breeding would stop and animals would gradually die out but not
be replaced.
The bulk of Tim's propaganda originates elsewhere in the world. I don't
suppose he contributes to the *send a cow* charity helping impoverished
Africans.

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:30:28 -0000, "NY" wrote:

snip

For me, there is one principle that trumps all others:

Ok.

I like meat

'Animal flesh'. The flesh taken from an animal that didn't want to die
you mean? Something that was never yours to take in the first place?

and I
hate vegetables.

So just because you happen to like doing something, you think that
justify's you doing it, even when there are victims of those choices?

Maybe if I had been raised a vegetarian or vegan I'd not hate vegetables as
much;

Or if you listened to the advice you will have been given all your
life by all nutrition experts and health professionals re how you
should 'eat up your veg because it's good for you'? 'Meat and two veg'
etc?

obviously I wouldn't know what meat tastes like to compare with.

Quite ... but I wasn't 'raised a vegetarian or vegan' and I did 'like'
the taste of meat but I like the idea that I'm no longer killing and
exploiting animals even more.

Maybe
I'd still hate vegetables,

Why are you going on about 'vegetables' OOI? They aren't the only
alternative to meat ... there are loads of foods that are 'plant
based' that have a similar taste and texture to meat if that's what
you must have and neither look nor taste like the non animals they
were made from?

in which case I may end up living on nuts and raw
carrots/celery (the two vegetables that I like, although as a snack rather
than cooked as an accompaniment to a meal).

See above. I really think you are putting up excuses to try justify
your desire to continue to cause suffering and death of innocent
creatures rather than actually seeing if you could do something else?

Knowing that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier and kinder to animals
is very worthy, but it's not enough on its own to persuade me to change.

See above. If your only experience is a very limited one of straight
'vegetables' versus plant based foods then you really aren't in a
position to judge (yet).

I
like to enjoy my food -

What, and vegans don't?

and I wouldn't enjoy a meat-free diet.

You don't know you wouldn't ... and the only reason why you would
continue a meat based diet is that you don't *actually* GAF about the
suffering and the death of those animals to just happen to desire to
eat? What animals haven't you tried that other eat that you might be
missing out on? Why only eat the ones you have so far?

Maybe I'd eat
less if I was restricted to food that I didn't like, which up to a point
would be a Good Thing ;-)

Well yes, whilst in 'Obese Britain' that generally would be a good
thing, you don't have to 'eat less' or not enjoy food as much, just
because you don't eat animals? I do pretty well all the cooking and
outside of doing a short 'Catering' course when I was 16 and at
college, I'm no chief. However, in the year I've been preparing vegan
food for the two of us there hasn't been a single meal that the Mrs
hasn't fully enjoyed. I am slightly more fussy and possibly because I
have cooked it myself, am aware of those things I could have done
differently / better.

Like last night. Daughter had got us (at my request) some green
lentils because I wanted to have a go at making more stuff from
scratch. So I found a vegan recipe on the net that was the best match
for what ingredients we and the amount of effort required had and gave
it a go. We had 3 pretty tired fresh carrots that I cleaned up and
sliced and added some frozen ones to make up the recommended quantity.
A few small potatoes chopped and some chopped onion and sauted them
all in a big saucepan with a little bit of oil. I added some garlic
powder (didn't have any fresh), then the lentils after draining and
then added 3 of the 6 cups of water I was supposed to add to make up
the stock (with a bit of gravy / bullion). After bringing it to the
boil and simmering it for a while it dawned on me the water was
supposed to be absorbed by the *dry* lentils and the ones from the tin
were already wet so I now had too much liquid. [1] Doh!

So, I added a cup of rice and some frozen small veg, brought it back
to the boil and let it simmer for 10 mins and served it up as a thick
soup / broth. It was actually very nice and we have some left over to
have as-is another day or I'll add something to it, say some chopped
tomatoes and have it on pasta. All good and healthy and nothing like
the 'vegetables' you constantly refer to?

I support keeping animals in the best conditions possible (eg free-range,
not battery hens) while still raising them to eat or to produce milk, eggs,
leather, wool etc.

That's not really helping the main issues though so given your focus
on your own personal pleasures, you might as well (for what actual
good it does the animals in the long run), just buy what you want.
Free range hens are still exhausted in 72 weeks (and are slaughtered)
and we know how bad the dairy industry is, however it's done.
And what was that sheep they found that was carrying 35kg of wool? Do
you think that's natural? Do you think that would have survived this
long as a species like that?

I am opposed to hunting and fishing, except as a source
of food.

What, even when you (the vast majority) don't *need* to kill another
living creature to live a healthy / happy life in 2021?

https://ibb.co/qBTDRrs

Cheers, T i m

[1] To be fair I was also making a batch of vegan peanut butter and
oat cookies at the time so wasn't concentrating fully (and they came
out perfect and are *way* to nice). ;-)

On 02/03/2021 13:49, T i m wrote:

What can I do? Well I can do whatever I can to not cause any animal
suffering and exploitation wherever possible and practical (and I am).

You've had your 60 odd years of doing what you want, now you want to
stop others having theirs, like eating a balanced diet.

--
Spike

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Maybe if I had been raised a vegetarian or vegan I'd not hate vegetables
as
much;

Or if you listened to the advice you will have been given all your
life by all nutrition experts and health professionals re how you
should 'eat up your veg because it's good for you'? 'Meat and two veg'
etc?

Listening to the advice and heeding it is one thing; finding it anything
other than deeply unpleasant is another. I do eat veg - probably not far
short of the recommended five portions a day. I just don't enjoy it - it
spoils an otherwise nice meal.

obviously I wouldn't know what meat tastes like to compare with.

Quite ... but I wasn't 'raised a vegetarian or vegan' and I did 'like'
the taste of meat but I like the idea that I'm no longer killing and
exploiting animals even more.

Ah, I wasn't sure what your history was. OK so we both like(d) meat, but for
you the ethics of not harming animals was more important than liking meat,
whereas for me it's the opposite way round. We all have different
priorities.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 16:03:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 02/03/2021 15:30, NY wrote:
Knowing that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier and kinder to
animals is very worthy,

Or would be if it were remotely true. Farm animals have better lives
than wild animals mainly

In your highly uneducated opinion.

The *massive* difference in the majority of cases is that *all*
livestock has a very very *short* life as you typically have them
killed when they are just children, because that's when their flesh is
the most tender (or way before they may live in the wild).

So at best you could say they don't live a real 'natural' life (with
all that brings) when their 'life' is often a tiny fraction of what
time it might be in the wild and when that life is completely
unnatural in many cases.

FACT. NONE of the male chicks (in the egg industry) survive past 1
day old.

FACT. Most of the male cows born in the wild last past a few days or a
few months, unlike those unfortunate enough to have been born into the
dairy industry.

How often do wild salmon swim round in circles for 3 years, or pigs
lose their tails or teeth or hens the tips of their beaks in the wild?

But why would you want to be honest and accept the truth when it
obviously doesn't suit your selfish agenda?

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:38:43 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:57:02 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

You would think so eh, but that's exactly what we effectively do with
many live stock, especially those species no longer able to reproduce
on their own / naturally (because of how we have genetically mutilated
them).

I presume you're talking about artificial insemination.

If that's what you want to call it.

Isn't AI done to
avoid each farm having to keep (or have easy access to) a bull/ram,

Partly, again for the benefit of 'productivity', nothing to do with
the preferences of the individual animals.

and
maybe to give genetic variation,

Or more like to give production consistency and genetic manipulation.

rather than because species are unable to
breed naturally if they are allowed "access" to a bull/ram?

I was talking of the likes of Turkeys who can no longer reproduce
naturally.

Going back a few hundred years, when most farms kept a male or each species
for breeding, I wonder if neighbouring farms shared/swapped males to give
greater genetic variation.

I'm sure they did.

If keeping animals for food and other products became illegal, I wonder what
would happen to the animals that were still alive when the law was
introduced? Would they be killed so they didn't starve when their fields
were needed for additional crops?

Really? Are you really asking this? (The irony though is if we weren't
feeding crops to the livestock but were consuming it ourselves there
would be a *surplus* crops).

Would they be released into the wild and
allowed to breed at will, while still being kept out of crop fields.

No wonder you don't 'get' any of this. ;-(

I
imagine if there was some advance notice of the law change, breeding would
stop and animals would gradually die out but not be replaced.

Bingo ... did you really think that sort of thing would happen
overnight? ;-(

Except they wouldn't 'die out', they would all be slaughtered inside a
year (flesh) or 5 (milk) like they would be anyway.

https://ibb.co/GRyxDfs

Watch this if you want to see just how common / convolute /
predictable all the arguments trying to justify the killing and
suffering we inflict on animals is).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ4VK9gRRro

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:45:44 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

snip

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

Like the child abuse of removing foreskins off little boys without their
permission....just ban it.

Quite ... and we are, all be it slowly, with many things that were
once considered perfectly acceptable re our treatment / use of animals
over the years.

Still got a long way to go of course and like many such things it's a
combination of education (of the masses) to reduce demand (also being
addressed via animal welfare, human health, resource usage and the
environment) and to get the suppliers to do something else that is
equally important but kinder and more sustainable.

Cheers, T i m

https://ibb.co/7S8fNDC

"T i m" wrote in message
...
We do live in a strange world where people

post crap to a DIY newsgroup

T i m wrote

We do live in a strange world where people 'say' they respect
and (should / do) protect animals then do the exact opposite
in what they eat or do with their bodies or excretions?

And you do that in spades with their sexual organs, when you
make them eat nothing like their natural diet, and insist on
having them on a lead all the time when out walking etc etc etc.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:56:31 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:01:41 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
Maybe if I had been raised a vegetarian or vegan I'd not hate vegetables
as
much;

Or if you listened to the advice you will have been given all your
life by all nutrition experts and health professionals re how you
should 'eat up your veg because it's good for you'? 'Meat and two veg'
etc?

Listening to the advice and heeding it is one thing; finding it anything
other than deeply unpleasant is another.

When I asked someone if they actually liked the taste of Brussels
sprouts they told me how I could cook them with other stuff to make
them taste nice / hide the taste. Given you couldn't (shouldn't) eat
/ digest meat without cooking it, the principals / issues aren't that
different.

I do eat veg - probably not far
short of the recommended five portions a day.

You know it makes sense. You are an omnivore with a bias on fruit /
veg / nuts after all.

I just don't enjoy it - it
spoils an otherwise nice meal.

So you would *just* eat meat, given the chance? Do you have any
dependants or children OOI? Anyone who might care if you got bowel
cancer, suffered heart disease or T2 diabetes?

obviously I wouldn't know what meat tastes like to compare with.

Quite ... but I wasn't 'raised a vegetarian or vegan' and I did 'like'
the taste of meat but I like the idea that I'm no longer killing and
exploiting animals even more.

Ah, I wasn't sure what your history was.

Ok.

OK so we both like(d) meat,

Yup.

but for
you the ethics of not harming animals was more important than liking meat,

I was brought up to love, protect care for all animals and had a
Guinea-pig as a child (not my idea) and tropical fish, and we always
had dogs (mostly whippets). I also rescued a Rock dove when I was
about 15, built it a safe roost at home, nursed it to heath and it
lived (free) with us for a couple of years (before flying away when we
went on a family holiday).

whereas for me it's the opposite way round.

But are you saying that your liking for meat is so great you would
pull the trigger on the heads of a calf with a bolt gun then cut it's
throat, or send a pig into a gas chamber and watch it squeal and
desperately try to escape ... before watching them have their throats
cut and their guts spilled out?

We all have different
priorities.

I bet we (you and I) don't (you can't include the trolls, psychopaths
or those with a history / vested interest in the whole process).

I bet inside you know your choices aren't right and you would rather
animals didn't have to suffer and die, just to satisfy your taste
buds?

So why wouldn't you put some effort into looking into alternatives?

Q. Do you do your own shopping?

Q. Do you do your own cooking?

Q. If you do the / some cooking, do you have to cook for anyone else?

Q. What are the chances of anyone else in your household being willing
/ interested in reducing the suffering of animals?

Q. Would those same people consider themselves animal lovers?

See, I understand that for many the issue isn't a simple / single one
and so to stand up for their own principals could make things more
difficult / complicated.

We though are open minded people so when daughter decided she had
lived in conflict re her treatment of animals long enough (after
trying to go organic / Red Tractor / RSPCA Assured and realising it
was all marketing bollox) and went vegan in Veganuary 2020, we said we
would support her, for her, for us (and our own long-term conflict)
and the animals.

It wasn't any issue to do so for any of us because we were all happy
to go along with it and none of us have regretted it for a ms.

As I have said before, our only regret is that we didn't do so sooner.
Part of that was the lack of impetus, easier to carry on doing what
we were doing (which for the last 5 years was not consuming dairy
(doctors orders) and not eating much meat in any case) and the support
for vegan choices across the board, something that is *now* changing
very fast (and not just food).

Just because you aren't actually pulling the trigger or wielding the
knife, you are paying someone to do that for you (and so also putting
the mental burden on them as well), so the blood is on your hands.

So, what sort of food do you like? It can't just be chunks of burnt
animal flesh?

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:12:17 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

snip

.......Jews and Muslims draining blood from live animals for Kosha and
Halal crap.

Yup, all / any exploitation of animals by anyone.

And arseholes like you.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:16:40 +0000, "Jimmy Stewart ..."
wrote:

snip

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when
they only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially
ourselves with health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

What can I do? Well I can do whatever I can to not cause any animal
suffering and exploitation wherever possible and practical (and I am).

Bull**** you do with your dogs.

And if you were interested (and I know you
aren't), you could *easily* do the same.

More lies.

"NY" wrote in message
...
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:44:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

speciesism is avoiding meat in favour of innocent vegetables

Nope, not in the example given / stated it isn't so once again you
manage to get something 100% wrong.

In this case the 'species' were the generally highly selective range
of often sentient creatures typically objectified / comodified by
humans for food and general exploitation.

And OOI, what do the animals you eat eat?

https://ibb.co/ynvgJmy

For me, there is one principle that trumps all others: I like meat and I
hate vegetables.

While I don't hate vegetables, I prefer main meals
and even sandwiches to have both meat and veg.

Maybe if I had been raised a vegetarian or vegan I'd not hate vegetables
as much; obviously I wouldn't know what meat tastes like to compare with.

I'd be surprised if any but a few never tried any
meat once out of the orbit of their stupid parents.

Maybe I'd still hate vegetables, in which case I may end up living on nuts
and raw carrots/celery (the two vegetables that I like, although as a
snack rather than cooked as an accompaniment to a meal).

You'd likely end up with real health problems tho.

Knowing that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier and kinder to animals
is very worthy, but it's not enough on its own to persuade me to change.

Me neither, particularly as the animals would
never have lived at all if we don't eat them.

I like to enjoy my food - and I wouldn't enjoy a meat-free diet.

Me neither, **** that, I'd rather be dead.

Maybe I'd eat less if I was restricted to food that I didn't like, which
up to a point would be a Good Thing ;-)

I support keeping animals in the best conditions possible (eg free-range,
not battery hens)

I don't bother to only buy those, essentially
because what I do personally would have no
effect on the number of battery hens etc.

while still raising them to eat or to produce milk, eggs, leather, wool
etc. I am opposed to hunting and fishing, except as a source of food.

Yeah, bit rough torturing fish, encouraging them
to ingest a hook, just drag them out of the water
to remove the hook and throw them back in again.

"NY" wrote in message
...
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:57:02 +0000, Jimmy Stewart
wrote:

snip

I take it having sex with an animal is a no no then ? ......

You would think so eh, but that's exactly what we effectively do with
many live stock, especially those species no longer able to reproduce
on their own / naturally (because of how we have genetically mutilated
them).

I presume you're talking about artificial insemination. Isn't AI done to
avoid each farm having to keep (or have easy access to) a bull/ram, and
maybe to give genetic variation, rather than because species are unable to
breed naturally if they are allowed "access" to a bull/ram?

Going back a few hundred years, when most farms kept a male or each
species for breeding, I wonder if neighbouring farms shared/swapped males
to give greater genetic variation.

That certainly happened with dog breeding so I
would be surprised if it didn't with other animals.

If keeping animals for food and other products became illegal, I wonder
what would happen to the animals that were still alive when the law was
introduced? Would they be killed so they didn't starve when their fields
were needed for additional crops? Would they be released into the wild and
allowed to breed at will, while still being kept out of crop fields. I
imagine if there was some advance notice of the law change, breeding would
stop and animals would gradually die out but not be replaced.

Imo most would be deliberately killed.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 16:31:06 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Waste of time giving Tim facts:-(

snip

Didn't we have a wager on something Tim?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:01:57 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:38:12 +0000, "Jimmy Stewart ..."
wrote:


https://ibb.co/7S8fNDC

Yup, that's one of the pictures, but I really don't see why it made
the news or have become a big issue?

Many horses die each year in the 'sport' of horse racing / jumping as
do greyhounds in greyhound racing, but as long as you aren't seen with
their corpses that's ok it seems?

https://houndsfirst.co.uk/greyhound-racing-the-facts/

Similar with hunters and pictures with their 'kills'. They must be
really powerful hunters as they hide up the tree or in a hide waiting
for some innocent and defenseless animal (at that distance) to walk
past before shooting it with a rifle.

Kill thousands of innocent animals a day but behind the closed walls
and windowless slaughterhouses and few seem to care.

They don't care because they are fed a load of lies by those with a
vested interest in continuing the suffering, exploitation and death.

If the whole process was so 'normal' and 'wholesome', why do we never
see it on any farming program or meat advert?

Do they think that a cow would be 'happy' to give up it's life after
living on 'Happy Farm'?

Cheers, T i m

On 2 Mar 2021 18:01:52 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

I've disliked most vegetables since I started on solid food.

Ironic now you have all your food blended for you again?

I remember my
father just about getting me to eat peas when I was 3 or so.

Was that when he gave up on you then?

Then came school
dinners - in particular school dinners in 1951.

What, *just* 1951 and for everyone?

Boiled cabbage - revolting
taste and smell.

Yup, they were 'school dinners', not a fancy restaurant. Now the kids
can just eat burgers and chips, much better for them of course.

I've hated brassicas ever since.

And the chances are they think the same about you (given they are
sentient etc).

But hey, at least no one is interested in your diet. Become a vegan
and everone becomes a qualified dietitian, *believing* that animal
flesh is a good source of all the nutrients we need (especially when
eaten raw with our flesh ripping canine teeth and meat cutting
incisors).

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:45:44 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

snip

Much of it is simply speciesism, people who have been indoctrinated
(historically) or brainwashed and certainly marketed to to accept that
they *need* to cause the suffering to innocent and often sentient
animals to survive or even enjoy themselves (taste / texture) when they
only do so at the cost to other species (and potentially ourselves with
health, resource use and the environment etc).

I think this explains speciesism fairly well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRk6OAseMLQ


but what can you do .....

Like the child abuse of removing foreskins off little boys without their
permission....just ban it.

Quite ... and we are, all be it slowly, with many things that were
once considered perfectly acceptable re our treatment / use of animals
over the years.

Bet it doesn't happen because the jewish lobby
is so ferocious when ever that is proposed and
is surprisingly influential for some reason.

On 02/03/2021 21:32, T i m wrote:

snip

But hey, at least no one is interested in your diet.

You're obsessed with diets. You abuse anyone exercising their choice for
a naturally balanced diet.

Become a vegan
and everone becomes a qualified dietitian, *believing* that animal
flesh is a good source of all the nutrients

Most of us believe in a naturally balanced diet which includes meat for
those vitamins and minerals we can';t get from plants.

we need (especially when
eaten raw with our flesh ripping canine teeth and meat cutting
incisors).

Yes, that is why we are born with such teeth, so we can eat meat and
meat products. It's in our genes. From you fanaticism I presume you must
be envious I still have my own teeth?

On 02/03/2021 21:06, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 16:31:06 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Waste of time giving Tim facts:-(

snip

Didn't we have a wager on something Tim?

Cheers, T i m

Quite, whenever you see a fact you don't like the two likely results are
you abusing the poster or simply ignoring it, hoping the poster will go
away.