Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 21:25:12 +0000, Paul Benton
wrote:

Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it.

Id say the final result looks reasonably consistent and working
overhand is never easy, even when it's clean metal etc.

Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands?

I can't see why not. They'll probably give it a few taps with a small
hammer and if it doesn't fall off, say it's ok? ;-)

If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?

I think some of them like to see the repair before you cover it up, if
it's been done 'for' the MOT etc. Not sure if there are any rules that
cover such but coming clean at least removes the element of doubt.


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

Thanks for reminding me why I built the kitcar and it's nice heavy
duty box steel ladder chassis and fibreglass body. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 29/01/2021 21:25, Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ


I think the key point is whether it is near a suspension point. I assume
of course that you have tested the structural integrity by jacking the
car up to get two wheels off the ground, if it were mine I would
overload it too by opening the nearest door and jumping up and down on
the exposed sill.

My impression is that MOT testers are more cautious than they used to
be, perhaps they are subjected to more random inspections.

*Personally* I would have discussed it with a tester first.

On 29/01/2021 21:25, Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

It may not be pretty but is better than some welding I have seen.

Once you cover it with black underseal or alternative it should look ok too.

The criteria is a continuous seam weld, if you're there the examiner
might ask. He'll struggle not to agree that is continuous. Not long ago
it was 25mm weld with 50mm gaps. The only test of it's structural
integrity is firm thumb pressure. If it doesn't move and seems sound
he'll should accept the repair.

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion

Identify the important load bearing members and €˜prescribed areas on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Visual inspection
Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

FYI the corrosion assessment tool is a joke. Most testers don't use one
but obviously have one at hand just in case they have a visit from an
inspector.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:14:09 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion

Identify the important load bearing members and ‘prescribed areas’ on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Visual inspection
Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

Unbelievable. Just as well you provided a source or I'd have assumed
you were joking.
Dunno what I was worried about, then!

FYI the corrosion assessment tool is a joke. Most testers don't use one
but obviously have one at hand just in case they have a visit from an
inspector.

ISTR back in the day ('70s) they'd use a massive screwdriver and jab
it violently up against any suspect areas, thereby exposing all the
chicken wire and scrunched-up newspapers. Regs must have got relaxed
since then, I guess.

On 30/01/2021 00:45, Paul Benton wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:14:09 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion

Identify the important load bearing members and €˜prescribed areas on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Visual inspection
Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

Unbelievable. Just as well you provided a source or I'd have assumed
you were joking.
Dunno what I was worried about, then!

Glad it was of use. I would paint it up or use black goo. Obviously it's
going to look new unless you can make it age, so the repair will be
obvious.

Structural failure is rare where by far the majority of accidents are
down to driver error or misfortune. To be honest visual inspection and
feel are pretty good at gauging corrosion and perforation.

I genuinely don't think a tester would fail your repair. You may wish to
post the same question in
uk.rec.cars.maintenance
as there are some there who don't frequent this group and may have more
experience.

FYI the corrosion assessment tool is a joke. Most testers don't use one
but obviously have one at hand just in case they have a visit from an
inspector.

ISTR back in the day ('70s) they'd use a massive screwdriver and jab
it violently up against any suspect areas, thereby exposing all the
chicken wire and scrunched-up newspapers. Regs must have got relaxed
since then, I guess.

I have only known one instance many, many years ago where a tester
nicely perforated a sill with a screwdriver.

On 30/01/2021 01:02, Fredxx wrote:
On 30/01/2021 00:45, Paul Benton wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:14:09 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion


Identify the important load bearing members and €˜prescribed areas on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Â*Â*Â*Â* Visual inspection
Â*Â*Â*Â* Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
Â*Â*Â*Â* If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

Unbelievable. Just as well you provided a source or I'd have assumed
you were joking.
Dunno what I was worried about, then!

Glad it was of use. I would paint it up or use black goo. Obviously it's
going to look new unless you can make it age, so the repair will be
obvious.

Structural failure is rare where by far the majority of accidents are
down to driver error or misfortune. To be honest visual inspection and
feel are pretty good at gauging corrosion and perforation.

The problem is what happens to the crash resistance if the
vehicle is involved in a crash ?. What might be fine for
a general runabout might not provide the occupants with the same
degree of protection that the manufacturer designed at anything
faster than 30mph after an impact.

30 years ago, I occasionally saw 10+ YO vehicles involved in
minor crashes and the hidden rust was spread all over the
road, with serious deflection and distortion of the body shell.
These days that doesn't seem to happen (though that might be
because I don't go out for 50 miles bike rides any longer so
I miss them). Mark 1 Ford Ka's were notorious for rust even
at 7 years old but the newer models seem better.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 30/01/2021 01:02, Fredxx wrote:
On 30/01/2021 00:45, Paul Benton wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:14:09 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion


Identify the important load bearing members and �prescribed areas‘ on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Visual inspection
Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

Unbelievable. Just as well you provided a source or I'd have assumed
you were joking.
Dunno what I was worried about, then!

Glad it was of use. I would paint it up or use black goo. Obviously it's
going to look new unless you can make it age, so the repair will be
obvious.

Structural failure is rare where by far the majority of accidents are
down to driver error or misfortune. To be honest visual inspection and
feel are pretty good at gauging corrosion and perforation.

The problem is what happens to the crash resistance if the
vehicle is involved in a crash ?. What might be fine for
a general runabout might not provide the occupants with the same
degree of protection that the manufacturer designed at anything
faster than 30mph after an impact.

30 years ago, I occasionally saw 10+ YO vehicles involved in
minor crashes and the hidden rust was spread all over the
road, with serious deflection and distortion of the body shell.
These days that doesn't seem to happen (though that might be
because I don't go out for 50 miles bike rides any longer so
I miss them). Mark 1 Ford Ka's were notorious for rust even
at 7 years old but the newer models seem better.

Back in the 1960s, I was introduced to a car body repairer: George, the
only person I know who can weld two pieces of rust together

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 10:27:52 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

30 years ago, I occasionally saw 10+ YO vehicles involved in
minor crashes and the hidden rust was spread all over the
road, with serious deflection and distortion of the body shell.
These days that doesn't seem to happen (though that might be
because I don't go out for 50 miles bike rides any longer so
I miss them). Mark 1 Ford Ka's were notorious for rust even
at 7 years old but the newer models seem better.

If you're going to have a head-on in a Ka you've basically had your
chips, rust or no rust, you ain't coming out of it with a pulse.

On 30/01/2021 00:45, Paul Benton wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:14:09 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

His testing is limited:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-insp...-and-corrosion

Identify the important load bearing members and €˜prescribed areas on a
vehicle, then check if they are excessively corroded by:

Visual inspection
Use finger and thumb pressure to assess the extent of the corrosion
If necessary, carefully scrape or lightly tap the affected areas
with the corrosion assessment tool

Use of the corrosion assessment tool must be restricted to ascertaining
that the failure criteria are met and not used for heavy scraping or
poking of the affected areas.

Unbelievable. Just as well you provided a source or I'd have assumed
you were joking.
Dunno what I was worried about, then!

The trouble is that heavy scraping or poking is liable to damage the
protective layer of paint and promote rusting, so they could be accused
of causing damage.

Lighter poking, maybe with a piece of wood, would likely reveal any
serious corrosion with holes or flaking layers and with no real chance
of damage.

Paul Benton wrote:

Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

has it already failed mot on that section of floor
best thing is to take it to the garage and ask them to take a look ´most¡ garages want to keep you as a customer and are happy to help.

--

In article ,
Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

Looks like you could grind the welds down a bit more. Do they seem to have
penetrated both bits of steel? Looks don't much matter, but I'd need to be
sure the weld is strong. Covering it up with gobs of underseal is going to
make the tester look far more closely. And rightly so.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:34:53 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Looks like you could grind the welds down a bit more. Do they seem to have
penetrated both bits of steel? Looks don't much matter, but I'd need to be
sure the weld is strong. Covering it up with gobs of underseal is going to
make the tester look far more closely. And rightly so.

That's the main issue with MIG: you can't really tell! The truth is I
just don't know. I've jacked it up and belted it with a club hammer
and it ain't goin' nowhere. HOWEVER, whether it would survive intact
after a smash is another matter altogether. A complete unknown.

In article ,
Paul Benton wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:34:53 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Looks like you could grind the welds down a bit more. Do they seem to have
penetrated both bits of steel? Looks don't much matter, but I'd need to be
sure the weld is strong. Covering it up with gobs of underseal is going to
make the tester look far more closely. And rightly so.

That's the main issue with MIG: you can't really tell! The truth is I
just don't know. I've jacked it up and belted it with a club hammer
and it ain't goin' nowhere. HOWEVER, whether it would survive intact
after a smash is another matter altogether. A complete unknown.

I'd try belting a few random globs of weld with a hammer and punch. If
they stay in place, they'll have penetrated.

I'm an expert at really bad welding. Despite practising and even modifying
my MIG to give a better slow speed wire feed, I've never mastered welding
thin stuff.

--
*If PROGRESS is for advancement, what does that make CONGRESS mean?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/01/2021 16:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul Benton wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:34:53 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Looks like you could grind the welds down a bit more. Do they seem to have
penetrated both bits of steel? Looks don't much matter, but I'd need to be
sure the weld is strong. Covering it up with gobs of underseal is going to
make the tester look far more closely. And rightly so.

That's the main issue with MIG: you can't really tell! The truth is I
just don't know. I've jacked it up and belted it with a club hammer
and it ain't goin' nowhere. HOWEVER, whether it would survive intact
after a smash is another matter altogether. A complete unknown.

I'd try belting a few random globs of weld with a hammer and punch. If
they stay in place, they'll have penetrated.

I'm an expert at really bad welding. Despite practising and even modifying
my MIG to give a better slow speed wire feed, I've never mastered welding
thin stuff.

What type of wire do you use, and what was the shielding gas?

Cleanliness is key. It's tricky to get the feed right at low currents
and any contamination of surfaces will create vapour that destroys the
shielding gas properties.

I found gasless wire might be good outside but gives a pretty poor result.

On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:55:19 +0000, Fredxx
wrote:

On 30/01/2021 16:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul Benton wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:34:53 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Looks like you could grind the welds down a bit more. Do they seem to have
penetrated both bits of steel? Looks don't much matter, but I'd need to be
sure the weld is strong. Covering it up with gobs of underseal is going to
make the tester look far more closely. And rightly so.

That's the main issue with MIG: you can't really tell! The truth is I
just don't know. I've jacked it up and belted it with a club hammer
and it ain't goin' nowhere. HOWEVER, whether it would survive intact
after a smash is another matter altogether. A complete unknown.

I'd try belting a few random globs of weld with a hammer and punch. If
they stay in place, they'll have penetrated.

I'm an expert at really bad welding. Despite practising and even modifying
my MIG to give a better slow speed wire feed, I've never mastered welding
thin stuff.

What type of wire do you use, and what was the shielding gas?

Cleanliness is key. It's tricky to get the feed right at low currents
and any contamination of surfaces will create vapour that destroys the
shielding gas properties.

I found gasless wire might be good outside but gives a pretty poor result.

That gassless process is not suitable for thin guage metal IMO. It's
too close to MMA welding and it's far too easy to blow holes in thin
stuff. For car panels, you really must have plain steel wire and
CO2/Argon 15/85 or thereabouts.

On 29/01/2021 21:25, Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

I'm waiting to hear if it passed?

Mike

On 01/02/2021 13:30, Muddymike wrote:
On 29/01/2021 21:25, Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

I'm waiting to hear if it passed?

Mike

So am I. My Dad's car has just gone to the garage for 2 new wings and
the sills welding.

--
Adam

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 01/02/2021 13:30, Muddymike wrote:
On 29/01/2021 21:25, Paul Benton wrote:
Hi,


I've been forced to DIY a bit of welding on this old car I'm doing up
for the MOT which involves replacing a jacking point which was badly
rusted. Never having used a MIG before (and don't it show) I made a
bit of a mess of it. Question is, ugly as it undeniably is, would it
make MOT standard as it stands? If not, how about after a couple of
coats of really thick underseal?


https://yadi.sk/a/3JCu11C8848DhQ

I'm waiting to hear if it passed?

Mike

So am I. My Dad's car has just gone to the garage for 2 new wings and
the sills welding.

I'm surprised it's worth the cost of doing that - unless a classic.

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.