Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

I don't see how this might be an issue as long as there is nothing really
outlandinish about the load then it should just work.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply?

Works fine for me.

I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

On 18/12/2020 20:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

What do you mean by "paralleling"? Aren't all lights (and everything
else connected to the mains "paralleled"? Perhaps there's something
funny about the common supply.

--
Max Demian

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:09:09 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:


What do you mean by "paralleling"? Aren't all lights (and everything
else connected to the mains "paralleled"? Perhaps there's something
funny about the common supply.

I just meant to make it clear I'd not connected them in series, that's
all.

On 18/12/2020 20:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:34:59 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:09:09 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:


What do you mean by "paralleling"? Aren't all lights (and everything
else connected to the mains "paralleled"? Perhaps there's something
funny about the common supply.

I just meant to make it clear I'd not connected them in series, that's
all.

Yeah right....

On 19/12/20 7:20 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

maybe you need eggs and baking powder with the Flouro tubes

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 04:24:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...

Oh! Well, if it can happen to YOU it can happen to the best of us, I
guess. I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and dump ALL the
remaining tubes and embrace greener tech for once! The old fluos
turned out to be 2400mm long - much longer than the 6' they'd appeared
from floor level. Perhaps maintaining a discharge over that distance
is a more precarious undertaking than with the more common, shorter
tube lengths usually encountered.:-/

On 19/12/2020 09:39, F Murtz wrote:
On 19/12/20 7:20 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

maybe you need eggs and baking powder with the Flouro tubes

Or buy better quality 'grow lamps'

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:51:00 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

On 19/12/2020 09:39, F Murtz wrote:
On 19/12/20 7:20 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

maybe you need eggs and baking powder with the Flouro tubes

Or buy better quality 'grow lamps'

Oh I see what all these odd remarks are about now. No, this is in
relation to my earlier thread about replacing the workshop tubes as
they'd grown dim over time. Don't need "grow lamps" where I am
anyway.

On 19/12/2020 10:23, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 04:24:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...

Oh! Well, if it can happen to YOU it can happen to the best of us, I
guess. I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and dump ALL the
remaining tubes and embrace greener tech for once! The old fluos
turned out to be 2400mm long - much longer than the 6' they'd appeared
from floor level. Perhaps maintaining a discharge over that distance
is a more precarious undertaking than with the more common, shorter
tube lengths usually encountered.:-/

LED tubes are not quite as efficient as a good fluoro (sp!) but they
don't flicker as badly and the light quality is softer and more even
across the spectrum And they don't contain mercury.

And you can even get plug in replacement tubes

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufac...bes/index.html


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:49:13 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/12/2020 10:23, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 04:24:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...

Oh! Well, if it can happen to YOU it can happen to the best of us, I
guess. I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and dump ALL the
remaining tubes and embrace greener tech for once! The old fluos
turned out to be 2400mm long - much longer than the 6' they'd appeared
from floor level. Perhaps maintaining a discharge over that distance
is a more precarious undertaking than with the more common, shorter
tube lengths usually encountered.:-/

LED tubes are not quite as efficient as a good fluoro (sp!) but they
don't flicker as badly and the light quality is softer and more even
across the spectrum And they don't contain mercu

Er.... LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm

typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"

On 20/12/20 2:46 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:51:00 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

On 19/12/2020 09:39, F Murtz wrote:
On 19/12/20 7:20 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

maybe you need eggs and baking powder with the Flouro tubes

Or buy better quality 'grow lamps'

Oh I see what all these odd remarks are about now. No, this is in
relation to my earlier thread about replacing the workshop tubes as
they'd grown dim over time. Don't need "grow lamps" where I am
anyway.

Just a pet peeve, was drummed into us, not flour.

Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:49:13 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/12/2020 10:23, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 04:24:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...
Oh! Well, if it can happen to YOU it can happen to the best of us, I
guess. I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and dump ALL the
remaining tubes and embrace greener tech for once! The old fluos
turned out to be 2400mm long - much longer than the 6' they'd appeared
from floor level. Perhaps maintaining a discharge over that distance
is a more precarious undertaking than with the more common, shorter
tube lengths usually encountered.:-/

LED tubes are not quite as efficient as a good fluoro (sp!) but they
don't flicker as badly and the light quality is softer and more even
across the spectrum And they don't contain mercu

Er.... LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

There's actually a web page that explains the *multiple* types
of LED tube products, and how to get the best from them.
Type A. Type B. Type C. Type D=A+B ?

With a chart like this, you can see that one product, touts
140 lumens per watt. The industry does not place a premium on
providing efficiency information, so that chart might be all that
you get in the way of hints. What it does mean, is if you
shop around, you might find a good one.

https://img.ledsmagazine.com/files/b...fit=max&w=1440

( https://www.ledsmagazine.com/smart-l...ticle/16695188 )

Removing the ballast, and not using Type A, would be a start.

Type A – Easiest Installation

LED Tube with Integrated Driver – Compatible and Operated on Existing LFL Ballast

Type B – Simplest Total System

Ballast Bypass LED Tube – Wired to Mains

Type C – Best Performance

LED Tube with Remote Driver

*******

Page 32 Comparison of three lighting solutions.

https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uplo..._EFC201 6.pdf

energy
regular T8 280320
LED Tube on Ballast output 183960
LED Tube, bypass to mains 157680

There's no number for the remote driver case.

The LED tube has a firing angle of 160 degrees and does not rely on
the reflector returning the "back light".

LED versus CFL.

https://img.ledsmagazine.com/files/b...fit=max&w=1440

Paul

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 05:18:12 -0500, Paul
wrote:

There's actually a web page that explains the *multiple* types
of LED tube products, and how to get the best from them.
Type A. Type B. Type C. Type D=A+B ?

With a chart like this, you can see that one product, touts
140 lumens per watt. The industry does not place a premium on
providing efficiency information, so that chart might be all that
you get in the way of hints. What it does mean, is if you
shop around, you might find a good one.

https://img.ledsmagazine.com/files/b...fit=max&w=1440

( https://www.ledsmagazine.com/smart-l...ticle/16695188 )

Removing the ballast, and not using Type A, would be a start.

Type A – Easiest Installation

LED Tube with Integrated Driver – Compatible and Operated on Existing LFL Ballast

Type B – Simplest Total System

Ballast Bypass LED Tube – Wired to Mains

Type C – Best Performance

LED Tube with Remote Driver

*******

Page 32 Comparison of three lighting solutions.

https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uplo..._EFC201 6.pdf

energy
regular T8 280320
LED Tube on Ballast output 183960
LED Tube, bypass to mains 157680

There's no number for the remote driver case.

The LED tube has a firing angle of 160 degrees and does not rely on
the reflector returning the "back light".

LED versus CFL.

https://img.ledsmagazine.com/files/b...fit=max&w=1440

Paul

Wow! An unusually comprehensive answer for this group! Thanks.

On 20/12/2020 23:00, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:49:13 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/12/2020 10:23, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 04:24:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Worse. I have weird interactions between dimmers, banks of LEDS and
incandescents..where dimming one bank starts another bank flickering.
I conclude there is some sort of HF hash being put out...

Oh! Well, if it can happen to YOU it can happen to the best of us, I
guess. I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and dump ALL the
remaining tubes and embrace greener tech for once! The old fluos
turned out to be 2400mm long - much longer than the 6' they'd appeared
from floor level. Perhaps maintaining a discharge over that distance
is a more precarious undertaking than with the more common, shorter
tube lengths usually encountered.:-/

LED tubes are not quite as efficient as a good fluoro (sp!) but they
don't flicker as badly and the light quality is softer and more even
across the spectrum And they don't contain mercu

Er.... LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

The really big industrial tubes ere I think around 15%, the compacts
much less - 7% -compared with LEDS at 10% IIRC.and incandescent at 1%.


But I haven't looked recently, LEDS may be getting a bit better

as I recall there wasn't much in it between LED and fluoro and LED light
is simply nicer, and the tubes are like for like replaceable...And dont
contain mercury or sharp glass...

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm


typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.



--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
`
But I haven't looked recently, LEDS may be getting a bit better

They get better on shelves more slowly than they do in research labs ...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm
typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in the
50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

I'm surprised that it's that way round. I thought the whole advantage of
LEDs was that they had higher l/W that fluorescent (and *much* higher than
tungsten!). I've learned something!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm
typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"

Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/

yep

With LEDS in the 50-60l/W range

plenty in the shops over 100l/W including the example I gave from
philips, I notice from replacements that the 806 lumen flavour have
reduced by a fraction of a watt in the last few years

so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

On 21/12/2020 15:01, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm
typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not
worth getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and
you wont notice the difference.

I'm surprised that it's that way round. I thought the whole advantage of
LEDs was that they had higher l/W that fluorescent (and *much* higher
than tungsten!). I've learned something!

No, I've always had it in my head that fluoros were the most efficient
of all, but were unpleasant. And LEDS were knocking on the door.

And that seems to still be the case. Just

But the difference now is not worth the problems of fluoros.
And CFLs were a legislation-driven piece of GreenCrap„¢.

Next stage is probably OLED panels like those TV backlighting panels.





--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

ۥ Confucius

On 21/12/2020 15:07, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm
typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"

Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/

yep

With LEDS in the 50-60l/W range

plenty in the shops over 100l/W including the example I gave from
philips, I notice from replacements that the 806 lumen flavour have
reduced by a fraction of a watt in the last few years

And plenty of fluoros claim 85l/W

so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth getting excited
about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont notice the
difference.

"Lumen is a measure of overall output, and is a scalar quantity, since
it is effectively integrated luminosity. Perceived brightness is a
physiological function, and is (like all physiological functions) a
logarithmic value."

So really it hardly makes a difference

the takeaway condensed version is 'decent fluoro tubes are as bright as
LEDs watt for watt'

So that is not a particularly salient issue when deciding which to buy



--
€œIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.€�

ۥ Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 21/12/2020 15:07, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm
typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"

Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/

yep

With LEDS in the 50-60l/W range

plenty in the shops over 100l/W including the example I gave from
philips, I notice from replacements that the 806 lumen flavour have
reduced by a fraction of a watt in the last few years

so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth getting excited
about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont notice the
difference.
This is interesting from wiki,

21.5 W LED retrofit for T8 fluorescent tube (230 V) 172 lumens/W 25% eff.

Theoretical limit for a white LED with phosphorescence color mixing
260€“300 lumens/W 38.1€“43.9% eff.

Now that IS better than fluoros but only a special fluoro replacement
LED strip was able to reach the first figure. More conventional LEDS
bulbs were 100.

So it seems things are getting better and there is more efficiency to
come, but not *that* much

The low hanging fruit was dumping the 15 lumens per watt incadescents

Its actually a perfect example of the typical Green and wet behind the
ears magic thinking

'but LEDS are getting more efficient and soon they wont take any power
ay all'

versus -

"even at 100% effiency they will only take …™th the power they do now,
and will probably have to be green..."



--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the takeaway condensed version is 'decent fluoro tubes are as bright as
LEDs watt for watt'

especially when fluoros emit all the way round, but LEDs tend to shine
downwards without needing a reflector.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 14:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm


typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

Well then why are you being forced to dump your old fluoros and adopt
LEDs then? Is this another EU scam to fleece everyone?

On 21/12/2020 16:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 14:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm


typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

Well then why are you being forced to dump your old fluoros and adopt
LEDs then? Is this another EU scam to fleece everyone?

I think he asked if it were worth it, because they were flickering or
summat. I'd certainly hang a LED compatible tube in the old fitting, if
the fitting was OK.

I like LED light bettter than any other.



--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:00:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 16:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 14:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm


typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

Well then why are you being forced to dump your old fluoros and adopt
LEDs then? Is this another EU scam to fleece everyone?

I think he asked if it were worth it, because they were flickering or
summat. I'd certainly hang a LED compatible tube in the old fitting, if
the fitting was OK.

How does that work, then? I'd have thought the HV gubbins in the tube
mounting would zap the LEDs?


I like LED light bettter than any other.

I can't see what the issue is. I've no problem at all with CFL and you
can get them in a good range of colour temperatures so you don't have
to put up with that office-like 'cool white' effect.

On 21/12/2020 20:39, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:00:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 16:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 14:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/12/2020 23:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

LEDs less efficient than fluoro?? Are we being lied to by TPTB
about that as well?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Lighting/L1_Regs/Lumen_Complies.htm


typical LED 806 lumen lamp under 7 watts

I'd say that's a "no"
Actually if you look carefully fluoros are in the 60-70l/With LEDS in
the 50-60l/W range so the fluoros have a slight edge, but its not worth
getting excited about - lighting perception is logarithmic and you wont
notice the difference.

Well then why are you being forced to dump your old fluoros and adopt
LEDs then? Is this another EU scam to fleece everyone?

I think he asked if it were worth it, because they were flickering or
summat. I'd certainly hang a LED compatible tube in the old fitting, if
the fitting was OK.

How does that work, then? I'd have thought the HV gubbins in the tube
mounting would zap the LEDs?
Well I am only guessing, but Id say that the same inductor that limits
tube current limits the LED current and with enough in series you can
make up the voltage, or not, as you prefer. .


I like LED light bettter than any other.

I can't see what the issue is. I've no problem at all with CFL and you
can get them in a good range of colour temperatures so you don't have
to put up with that office-like 'cool white' effect.

CFLs flicker, don't come on for ages, take longer to warm up, then die.
How many do you want?





--
€œwhen things get difficult you just have to lie€�

€• Jean Claud Jüncker

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:57:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
?
Well I am only guessing, but Id say that the same inductor that limits
tube current limits the LED current and with enough in series you can
make up the voltage, or not, as you prefer. .

I'm really struggling to see how the tube supply would be remotely
compatible with LEDs. Tubes are voltage operated devices, LEDs
current-operated. And as far as I know they still require effective
current-limiting to overcome the diode 'knee' effect and thermal
runaway.

CFLs flicker, don't come on for ages, take longer to warm up, then die.
How many do you want?

As many as you've got. I like 'em.

On 21/12/2020 22:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:57:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
?
Well I am only guessing, but Id say that the same inductor that limits
tube current limits the LED current and with enough in series you can
make up the voltage, or not, as you prefer. .

I'm really struggling to see how the tube supply would be remotely
compatible with LEDs. Tubes are voltage operated devices,

Well no, they are not. Almost exactly the reverse in fact

The thing about a tube is that it is a gas discharge tube, and needs a
fair voltage to *strike* , and the assistance of some cathode heaters,
but once struck it will draw (almost) unlimited current, at a
(constant) voltage IIRC of about 70. The inductor serves to limit the
current.

Irrespective of what the voltage across the tube is. You could replace
the tube with a dead short and it wouldn't trip anything - the inductor
limits the current.

And what that means is that any fairly low impedance load will get the
same power delivered. By what amounts to a constant current source
comprised of the mains and the inductor. And the fact that the LED and
Fluoro efficiencies are similar, means that an LED array fed by such a
source will draw virtually the same or similar power and be of
equivalent brightness in so doing

I have no idea how that current is apportioned to each LED. Or how many
there are. IIRC a whte LED is 4V or so, so to get to no more than 1090V
you wouldn't want more than 25 in series, and you would need a bridge
rectifier. Or perhaps you could have two chains in opposite polarity, to
make use of each half cycle. flickery tho.

I think I'd run a series of rectifiers and caps to drive different
chains and put the chains in parallel. Hmm. No that doesn't work
....possibly if enough diodes are in series the average v drop evens
out...a you can simply out the chains in parallel



LEDs
current-operated. And as far as I know they still require effective
current-limiting

That is the inductor doing that
to overcome the diode 'knee' effect and thermal
runaway.


If you think about it the curve of a buncch of LEDS in series and a gas
discharge tube are pretty similar.

CFLs flicker, don't come on for ages, take longer to warm up, then die.
How many do you want?

As many as you've got. I like 'em.

Next time you are passing then. I do good coffee also



--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 10:48:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 22:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:57:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
?
Well I am only guessing, but Id say that the same inductor that limits
tube current limits the LED current and with enough in series you can
make up the voltage, or not, as you prefer. .

I'm really struggling to see how the tube supply would be remotely
compatible with LEDs. Tubes are voltage operated devices,

Well no, they are not. Almost exactly the reverse in fact

The thing about a tube is that it is a gas discharge tube, and needs a
fair voltage to *strike* , and the assistance of some cathode heaters,
but once struck it will draw (almost) unlimited current, at a
(constant) voltage IIRC of about 70. The inductor serves to limit the
current.

Irrespective of what the voltage across the tube is. You could replace
the tube with a dead short and it wouldn't trip anything - the inductor
limits the current.

And what that means is that any fairly low impedance load will get the
same power delivered. By what amounts to a constant current source
comprised of the mains and the inductor. And the fact that the LED and
Fluoro efficiencies are similar, means that an LED array fed by such a
source will draw virtually the same or similar power and be of
equivalent brightness in so doing

I have no idea how that current is apportioned to each LED. Or how many
there are. IIRC a whte LED is 4V or so, so to get to no more than 1090V
you wouldn't want more than 25 in series, and you would need a bridge
rectifier. Or perhaps you could have two chains in opposite polarity, to
make use of each half cycle. flickery tho.

I think I'd run a series of rectifiers and caps to drive different
chains and put the chains in parallel. Hmm. No that doesn't work
...possibly if enough diodes are in series the average v drop evens
out...a you can simply out the chains in parallel

These modern lighting LEDs are becoming further and further removed
from the small signal devices they evolved from, so I'll bow to your
superior knowledge on the subject. I'm very much more
electronics-orientated than electricity, anyway. You say these LEDs
have a 6V Vf and that is ten times the voltage I would expect to see
from the SSD legacy so clearly I'm well out of date with developments
in lighting technology!

Next time you are passing then. I do good coffee also.

And I do pretty good advice on tax mitigation. Let's hope we're both
still around a year from now, because I can't see myself getting over
to England anytime soon, what with the way things are going.

On 22/12/2020 18:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 10:48:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 22:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:57:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
?
Well I am only guessing, but Id say that the same inductor that limits
tube current limits the LED current and with enough in series you can
make up the voltage, or not, as you prefer. .

I'm really struggling to see how the tube supply would be remotely
compatible with LEDs. Tubes are voltage operated devices,

Well no, they are not. Almost exactly the reverse in fact

The thing about a tube is that it is a gas discharge tube, and needs a
fair voltage to *strike* , and the assistance of some cathode heaters,
but once struck it will draw (almost) unlimited current, at a
(constant) voltage IIRC of about 70. The inductor serves to limit the
current.

Irrespective of what the voltage across the tube is. You could replace
the tube with a dead short and it wouldn't trip anything - the inductor
limits the current.

And what that means is that any fairly low impedance load will get the
same power delivered. By what amounts to a constant current source
comprised of the mains and the inductor. And the fact that the LED and
Fluoro efficiencies are similar, means that an LED array fed by such a
source will draw virtually the same or similar power and be of
equivalent brightness in so doing

I have no idea how that current is apportioned to each LED. Or how many
there are. IIRC a whte LED is 4V or so, so to get to no more than 1090V
you wouldn't want more than 25 in series, and you would need a bridge
rectifier. Or perhaps you could have two chains in opposite polarity, to
make use of each half cycle. flickery tho.

I think I'd run a series of rectifiers and caps to drive different
chains and put the chains in parallel. Hmm. No that doesn't work
...possibly if enough diodes are in series the average v drop evens
out...a you can simply out the chains in parallel

These modern lighting LEDs are becoming further and further removed
from the small signal devices they evolved from, so I'll bow to your
superior knowledge on the subject. I'm very much more
electronics-orientated than electricity, anyway. You say these LEDs
have a 6V Vf

I think about 4 for a blue white. There is a relationship between that
and the frequency emitted. Quantum crap or summat.

The real point is that the inductor is a lossless current limiter (in
theory) and a low loss one in practice. It gets rid of all the volts easily

What's inside the tube electronics wise I am guessing at. Maybe big
clive will tear one apart


and that is ten times the voltage I would expect to see
from the SSD legacy so clearly I'm well out of date with developments
in lighting technology!

red leds were always a volt and a bit, orange yellow a bit more and
green and blue even more

https://www.circuitbread.com/ee-faq/...different-leds



Next time you are passing then. I do good coffee also.

And I do pretty good advice on tax mitigation. Let's hope we're both
still around a year from now, because I can't see myself getting over
to England anytime soon, what with the way things are going.

Oh I dunno...

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:29:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

red leds were always a volt and a bit, orange yellow a bit more and
green and blue even more

https://www.circuitbread.com/ee-faq/...different-leds


Ok, I'll have to read that item later due to shortage of time right
now, but I'm harking back over 40 years to the first generation of
LEDs which were used for panel illumination on electronic instruments.
They'd typically draw about 15mA before going phut and were dimmer
than the filament bulbs they were replacing. That's if my memory is
not letting me down, that is.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:40:00 +0000, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:29:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

red leds were always a volt and a bit, orange yellow a bit more and
green and blue even more

https://www.circuitbread.com/ee-faq/...different-leds


Ok, I'll have to read that item later due to shortage of time right
now, but I'm harking back over 40 years to the first generation of
LEDs which were used for panel illumination on electronic instruments.
They'd typically draw about 15mA before going phut and were dimmer
than the filament bulbs they were replacing. That's if my memory is
not letting me down, that is.

Oh, and there were only two colours back then: green and red.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I think about 4 for a blue white. There is a relationship between that
and the frequency emitted. Quantum crap or summat.

If you plot Vf versus center wavelength, the slope
of the line allows derivation of Plancks constant.

(Done for some fool physics lab experiment, with
some crusty old spectrometer to check the LEDs.
You could still see Plancks fingerprints on the
instrument.)

They even have a picture of Mr.Plank here. And you
have to plot Va, not Vf. Drat!

https://www.scienceinschool.org/2014/issue28/planck

*******

The LEDs on my bicycle light (blue with white phosphor)
have a Vf of 2.5V at 11mA. The voltage (being
a diode curve) rises a bit when you start pumping
an amp through the high-power LEDs. I might have a commercial
datasheet or two listing 3.2V or so at ampere level.
The highest current value I've ever seen anyone
put through a single LED was 17 amps. No idea
what the voltage is then :-) The LED in that case,
was soldered onto a solid copper block, and relied
on thermal inertia to protect the LED during a
short (blinding) experiment.

LEDs are not very efficient when you do that.
You don't get 17x the light when running
17 amps versus 1 amp.

This is one reason the bicycle runs LED arrays and
not single LEDs. The LED arrays make better
use of the limited power (3W on a good day).
Due to the Vf being a bit low, the design only
uses 2.5W of the available power. If I could
get a 3V LED at 11mA, I'd be using it, as then
I could set the operating point at 6V (two LEDs
stacked, which is how it always runs). Running
6V @ 500mA would use the available 3W of generator
power. Running 5V @ 500mA (with all the LEDs
running in parallel in pairs), draws 2.5W.

I was a bit disappointed to see they were running
at 2.5V.

Paul

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:29:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

red leds were always a volt and a bit, orange yellow a bit more and
green and blue even more

https://www.circuitbread.com/ee-faq/...different-leds


Ok, I'll have to read that item later due to shortage of time right
now, but I'm harking back over 40 years to the first generation of
LEDs

I saw my first ones in 1969 - that's over 50 years ago.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:40:00 +0000, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:29:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

red leds were always a volt and a bit, orange yellow a bit more and
green and blue even more

https://www.circuitbread.com/ee-faq/...different-leds


Ok, I'll have to read that item later due to shortage of time right
now, but I'm harking back over 40 years to the first generation of
LEDs which were used for panel illumination on electronic instruments.
They'd typically draw about 15mA before going phut and were dimmer
than the filament bulbs they were replacing. That's if my memory is
not letting me down, that is.

Oh, and there were only two colours back then: green and red.

If both were in the same enclosure, you could have yellow, too.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 18/12/2020 20:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there some reason why one cannot have flourescent tubes and LED
floodlamps running off a common supply? I have found that when
paralelling up the LED floodlamps with flouro tubes, the tubes no
longer work; don't even try to start-up, despite the fact that have
full mains voltage connected to them. The LEDs OTOH, are totally fine.
Anyone else had this experience?

I would suggest a wiring fault. Have you checked if power is getting to
the Fluorescent fittings?