From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068
--
Graeme

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay. Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation? Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?

Since I've never heard of anything like this anywhere else, then they are
probably right. The issue for many is that the fire service fit thousands of
free smoke alarms for the elderly, of the battery operated kind you glue to
a wall or ceiling. This has resulted in a massive reduction in the deaths of
older people in fires. To ask everyone to fit a system which might be more
capable by law would simply result in fewer installations of any kind of
alarm.
One has to be pragmatic.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Graeme" wrote in message
...

From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068
--
Graeme

On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay. Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation? Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?


It's certainly a supply problem. There are 2.48 million households in
Scotland. Say roughly a minimum of 3 alarms are required per household.
1 heat alarm in the kitchen, a smoke alarm in the living room and one in
the hall. CO are needed if there's gas CH

I think I'd need 5 . I already have 2 compliant CO . The smoke alarms I
have are non-compliant That's a minimum of 7.5 million devices to be
found by February.

Something for the Xmas stocking ?

Brian
--
Brian

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 21/10/2020 10:08, Brian Howie wrote:
On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


Â*From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay.Â* Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation?Â* Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?


It's certainly a supply problem. There are 2.48 million households in
Scotland. Say roughly a minimum of 3 alarms are required per household.
1 heat alarm in the kitchen, a smoke alarm in the living room and one in
the hall. CO are needed if there's gas CH

I think I'd need 5 . I already have 2Â* compliant CO . The smoke alarms I
have are non-compliantÂ*Â* That's a minimum of 7.5 million devices to be
found by February.

Something for the Xmas stocking ?

Brian
no way am I replacing my toast smoke alarms

On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay. Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation? Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?

my guess is it will never happen ......

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 09:50:05 +0100, Scott wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay. Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation? Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:05:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Since I've never heard of anything like this anywhere else, then they are
probably right. The issue for many is that the fire service fit thousands of
free smoke alarms for the elderly, of the battery operated kind you glue to
a wall or ceiling. This has resulted in a massive reduction in the deaths of
older people in fires. To ask everyone to fit a system which might be more
capable by law would simply result in fewer installations of any kind of
alarm.
One has to be pragmatic.

It gets better. Somewhere in the small print it says the smike alarms
fitted by Scottish Fire and Rescue are not compliant.

Graeme wrote:

From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

Is this the first time a safety regulation has been made compulsory (in the
normal domestic situation)? I thought most building regulations only
applied to new builds and alterations, not to existing structures.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 21 Oct 2020 10:24:13 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

Graeme wrote:

From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

Is this the first time a safety regulation has been made compulsory (in the
normal domestic situation)? I thought most building regulations only
applied to new builds and alterations, not to existing structures.

Were Ascot water heaters banned?

On 21/10/2020 11:24, Tim+ wrote:
Graeme wrote:

From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

Is this the first time a safety regulation has been made compulsory (in the
normal domestic situation)? I thought most building regulations only
applied to new builds and alterations, not to existing structures.

Tim

you are getting mixed up with days when things made sense ....

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:07:49 +0100, Scott wrote:

It gets better. Somewhere in the small print it says the smike alarms
fitted by Scottish Fire and Rescue are not compliant.

If the Scottsh Fire and Rescue service have been fitting
non-compliant smoke alarm systems after Feb 2019 that is something to
complain about as that is when the change appeared in the legislative
pipeline. I have seen reference to "£870,000 each year for two years
funding to the SFRS" but not which two years...

Alarms fitted before Feb 2019 may well not be compliant, no reason to
be, the legislation was not in the pipeline.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:22:27 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:07:49 +0100, Scott wrote:

It gets better. Somewhere in the small print it says the smike alarms
fitted by Scottish Fire and Rescue are not compliant.

If the Scottsh Fire and Rescue service have been fitting
non-compliant smoke alarm systems after Feb 2019 that is something to
complain about as that is when the change appeared in the legislative
pipeline. I have seen reference to "£870,000 each year for two years
funding to the SFRS" but not which two years...

Alarms fitted before Feb 2019 may well not be compliant, no reason to
be, the legislation was not in the pipeline.

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't. I assume they are subordinate legislation as I have been
through the Acts of the Scottish Parliament. Unhelpfully, none of the
guidance seems to provide a link.

On 21/10/2020 13:38, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:22:27 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:07:49 +0100, Scott wrote:

It gets better. Somewhere in the small print it says the smike alarms
fitted by Scottish Fire and Rescue are not compliant.

If the Scottsh Fire and Rescue service have been fitting
non-compliant smoke alarm systems after Feb 2019 that is something to
complain about as that is when the change appeared in the legislative
pipeline. I have seen reference to "£870,000 each year for two years
funding to the SFRS" but not which two years...

Alarms fitted before Feb 2019 may well not be compliant, no reason to
be, the legislation was not in the pipeline.

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't. I assume they are subordinate legislation as I have been
through the Acts of the Scottish Parliament. Unhelpfully, none of the
guidance seems to provide a link.


The legislation won't help you much.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2019/8/contents/made

You may find more helpful the "Tolerable Standard Guidance: Satisfactory
Fire Detection and Satisfactory Carbon Monoxide Detection". I have the
text but no link so that's an opportunity for you to search.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:45:23 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 21/10/2020 13:38, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:22:27 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:07:49 +0100, Scott wrote:

It gets better. Somewhere in the small print it says the smike alarms
fitted by Scottish Fire and Rescue are not compliant.

If the Scottsh Fire and Rescue service have been fitting
non-compliant smoke alarm systems after Feb 2019 that is something to
complain about as that is when the change appeared in the legislative
pipeline. I have seen reference to "£870,000 each year for two years
funding to the SFRS" but not which two years...

Alarms fitted before Feb 2019 may well not be compliant, no reason to
be, the legislation was not in the pipeline.

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't. I assume they are subordinate legislation as I have been
through the Acts of the Scottish Parliament. Unhelpfully, none of the
guidance seems to provide a link.


The legislation won't help you much.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2019/8/contents/made

You may find more helpful the "Tolerable Standard Guidance: Satisfactory
Fire Detection and Satisfactory Carbon Monoxide Detection". I have the
text but no link so that's an opportunity for you to search.

.... continue my search

Thanks

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 11:53:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
Were Ascot water heaters banned?


They come under Gas Safety regulations not Building Standards (or housing law, which is the legislation the Scottish Govt are using).

Open flue gas heaters were defined as unsatisfactory in bathrooms and I think bedrooms, so would fail a gas safety inspection. Concealed flues have also been declared unsatisfactory and this is catching a lot of people out in flats.

Owain

On 21/10/2020 10:13, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 21/10/2020 10:08, Brian Howie wrote:
On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


Â*From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have
interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay.Â* Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation?Â* Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?


It's certainly a supply problem. There are 2.48 million households in
Scotland. Say roughly a minimum of 3 alarms are required per household.
1 heat alarm in the kitchen, a smoke alarm in the living room and one
in the hall. CO are needed if there's gas CH

I think I'd need 5 . I already have 2Â* compliant CO . The smoke alarms
I have are non-compliantÂ*Â* That's a minimum of 7.5 million devices to
be found by February.

Something for the Xmas stocking ?

Brian
no way am I replacing my toast smoke alarms

I take it you mean your wife ? :-)

On 21/10/2020 14:02, wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 11:53:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
Were Ascot water heaters banned?


They come under Gas Safety regulations not Building Standards (or housing law, which is the legislation the Scottish Govt are using).

Open flue gas heaters were defined as unsatisfactory in bathrooms and I think bedrooms, so would fail a gas safety inspection. Concealed flues have also been declared unsatisfactory and this is catching a lot of people out in flats.

Owain



Some new 2-bed houses built near me had the kitchen in the middle
of the property (don't ask !), with a lounge facing the front and
'dining' room facing the rear. This required the boiler flue from
the central kitchen to pass through the lounge and out of the
front wall. All boxed in with a 'cat flap' every 1.5 metres
where a flue connection was !.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 14:29:10 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
Concealed flues have also been declared unsatisfactory and
this is catching a lot of people out in flats.
All boxed in with a 'cat flap' every 1.5 metres
where a flue connection was !.

That's okay in a single house. The problem is where the concealed flue runs through a different flat, and the other owner/occupier is not amenable to having it opened up.

Owain

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 14:29:10 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
Concealed flues have also been declared unsatisfactory and
this is catching a lot of people out in flats.
All boxed in with a 'cat flap' every 1.5 metres
where a flue connection was !.

That's okay in a single house. The problem is where the concealed flue runs through a different flat, and the other owner/occupier is not amenable to having it opened up.

What does 'concealed' mean in this context? My three downstairs
neighbours' flues pass through my flat to reach the chimneys. They
are behind a wall but I know where they are.

On 21/10/2020 12:10, Jim GM4 DHJ ... wrote:
you are getting mixed up with days when things made sense ....

To add to this I have now read that Insurance companies are unlikely to
pay out if the proper alarms are not fitted.
Is this just a cop out? My reckoning is even with fire alarms by the
time you wake up / get out the house / then phone fire brigade which may
take say 10 minutes to arrive I would imagine the house could be well
alight.
In other words with or without alarms the damage would likely be extensive.

On 21/10/2020 15:09, ss wrote:
On 21/10/2020 12:10, Jim GM4 DHJ ... wrote:
you are getting mixed up with days when things made sense ....

To add to this I have now read that Insurance companies are unlikely to
pay out if the proper alarms are not fitted.
Is this just a cop out?Â* My reckoning is even with fire alarms by the
time you wake up / get out the house / then phone fire brigade which may
take say 10 minutes to arrive I would imagine the house could be well
alight.
In other words with or without alarms the damage would likely be extensive.

Houses do not burn down in ten minutes! Except in films.

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 15:02:07 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
That's okay in a single house. The problem is where the
concealed flue runs through a different flat, and
the other owner/occupier is not amenable to having it opened up.
What does 'concealed' mean in this context?

Not visible along their whole length for inspection.

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/he...lues-in-voids/

a room sealed, fan assisted boiler with a flue which is hidden behind a ceiling or wall, then a Gas Safe registered engineer will be unable to inspect the appliance.
If a Gas Safe registered engineer visits and is unable to view the flue they will classify the appliance as 'At Risk', which means:
It will be shut off (with your permission)
It cannot be operated again until inspection hatches have been fitted in appropriate places.
Most of the affected systems are relatively new (installed since 2000),

There is no legal duty on the consumer to have inspection hatches installed. However, there is a long-standing legal duty on gas engineers to be able to examine the flue to ensure it is safe whenever they work on your boiler.

Owain

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 09:38:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 15:02:07 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
That's okay in a single house. The problem is where the
concealed flue runs through a different flat, and
the other owner/occupier is not amenable to having it opened up.
What does 'concealed' mean in this context?

Not visible along their whole length for inspection.

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/he...lues-in-voids/

a room sealed, fan assisted boiler with a flue which is hidden behind a ceiling or wall, then a Gas Safe registered engineer will be unable to inspect the appliance.
If a Gas Safe registered engineer visits and is unable to view the flue they will classify the appliance as 'At Risk', which means:
It will be shut off (with your permission)
It cannot be operated again until inspection hatches have been fitted in appropriate places.
Most of the affected systems are relatively new (installed since 2000),

There is no legal duty on the consumer to have inspection hatches installed. However, there is a long-standing legal duty on gas engineers to be able to examine the flue to ensure it is safe whenever they work on your boiler.

Okay, is this just for boiler then? That's not a problem.

I was thinking about the original chimneys, which could now be used
for a gas fire. Mine passed a test meaning no flue liner is needed. I
believe some others do have flue liners fitted. There is no way on
this earth you could get to them without demolishing part of my lounge
wall. I would require a huge compensation package before agreeing to
this, including redecoration of the whole room afterwards.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2020 10:13, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 21/10/2020 10:08, Brian Howie wrote:
On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have
interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a 12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay. Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation? Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?


It's certainly a supply problem. There are 2.48 million households in
Scotland. Say roughly a minimum of 3 alarms are required per household.
1 heat alarm in the kitchen, a smoke alarm in the living room and one in
the hall. CO are needed if there's gas CH

I think I'd need 5 . I already have 2 compliant CO . The smoke alarms I
have are non-compliant That's a minimum of 7.5 million devices to be
found by February.

Something for the Xmas stocking ?

Brian
no way am I replacing my toast smoke alarms

I take it you mean your wife ? :-)

wifey 2 doors down from me failed in her task

the fire brigade attended

On 21/10/2020 15:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/10/2020 15:09, ss wrote:
On 21/10/2020 12:10, Jim GM4 DHJ ... wrote:
you are getting mixed up with days when things made sense ....

To add to this I have now read that Insurance companies are unlikely
to pay out if the proper alarms are not fitted.
Is this just a cop out?Â* My reckoning is even with fire alarms by the
time you wake up / get out the house / then phone fire brigade which
may take say 10 minutes to arrive I would imagine the house could be
well alight.
In other words with or without alarms the damage would likely be
extensive.

Houses do not burn down in ten minutes! Except in films.

And in reality. When did you witness an actual house fire and
the speed with which it spreads ?.

On 21/10/2020 18:10, tim... wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2020 10:13, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 21/10/2020 10:08, Brian Howie wrote:
On 21/10/2020 09:50, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:58 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


Â*From BBC News :

New legislation which requires all homes in Scotland to have
interlinked
smoke and carbon monoxide alarms will be delayed until 2022.

The moves followed criticism from Age Scotland and the Scottish
Conservatives over the lack of public awareness.

The new measures, which would cost an estimated £220 for an average
three-bedroom home, were due to come into force in February.

The Scottish government said MSPs would be asked to approve a
12-month
delay.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54621068

I wonder if it will be as straightforward as a 12 month delay.Â* Now
that there is a greater awareness of what is required in terms of cost
and disruption, will MSPs come under pressure to 'water down' the
legislation?Â* Conveniently, they have put it off until after the
election.

Is it really necessary to have interlinked alarms in a flat where a
single alarm can easily be heard troughout, as anyone who has burnt
the toast will be able to testify?


It's certainly a supply problem. There are 2.48 million households
in Scotland. Say roughly a minimum of 3 alarms are required per
household.
1 heat alarm in the kitchen, a smoke alarm in the living room and
one in the hall. CO are needed if there's gas CH

I think I'd need 5 . I already have 2Â* compliant CO . The smoke
alarms I have are non-compliantÂ*Â* That's a minimum of 7.5 million
devices to be found by February.

Something for the Xmas stocking ?

Brian
no way am I replacing my toast smoke alarms

I take it you mean your wife ? :-)

wifey 2 doors down from me failed in her task

the fire brigade attended



Perhaps she wanted a new kitchen ??

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 11:53:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
Were Ascot water heaters banned?


They come under Gas Safety regulations not Building Standards (or housing
law, which is the legislation the Scottish Govt are using).

Open flue gas heaters were defined as unsatisfactory in bathrooms and I
think bedrooms, so would fail a gas safety inspection. Concealed flues
have also been declared unsatisfactory and this is catching a lot of
people out in flats.

what's a concealed flue?

is there any type of flue that's allowed

Most people in my block have their boiler located in the small bedroom
(though not everyone will be using it as a bedroom)

Even new installs have been done that way



Owain

On 21/10/2020 10:13, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

no way am I replacing my toast smoke alarms

If they fall off the ceiling or wall do land butter side up?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/10/2020 14:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 14:29:10 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
Concealed flues have also been declared unsatisfactory and
this is catching a lot of people out in flats.
All boxed in with a 'cat flap' every 1.5 metres
where a flue connection was !.

That's okay in a single house. The problem is where the concealed flue runs through a different flat, and the other owner/occupier is not amenable to having it opened up.

Owain



So all those fancy diagrams on many boiler websites showing how
using 50mm mupvc can be used to run a flats flue up a common
void are misleading. Perhaps this is still allowed elsewhere in
europe.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:22:08 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
So all those fancy diagrams on many boiler websites showing how
using 50mm mupvc can be used to run a flats flue up a common
void are misleading.

They probably assume a purpose built flue void open for inspection.

Owain

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 15:18:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

To add to this I have now read that Insurance companies are
unlikely to
pay out if the proper alarms are not fitted.
Is this just a cop out?

I think the insurance company would have show "beyond reasonable
doubt" that the property would have been significantly less damaged
if smoke alarms had been fitted.

My reckoning is even with fire alarms by the time you wake up /
get out
the house / then phone fire brigade which may take say 10 minutes
to
arrive I would imagine the house could be well alight.
In other words with or without alarms the damage would likely be
extensive.

And it's not just fire damage as in burnt, the whole house will be
smoke damaged and a couple of hundred gallons of water a minute that
a fire hose (not the little hose reel) can deliver isn't exactly good
for things.

Houses do not burn down in ten minutes! Except in films.

Maybe not down as only walls standing but "well alight" certainly and
more than a single pump and its own water supply can cope with.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:43:04 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 15:18:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

To add to this I have now read that Insurance companies are
unlikely to
pay out if the proper alarms are not fitted.
Is this just a cop out?

I think the insurance company would have show "beyond reasonable
doubt" that the property would have been significantly less damaged
if smoke alarms had been fitted.

Balance of probabilities in civil cases, beyond reasonable doubt in
criminal cases (prosecution side) unless to have authority to the
contrary.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:38:53 +0100, Scott wrote:

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't.

Feeding english google(*) with "scottish fire alarms"
returns:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...in-scottish-ho
mes/
https://www.gov.scot/news/proposed-d...m-regulations/
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/

Not the actual legislation but enough from the horses mouth to tell
you want is required. The funding I'd guess to be buried away in the
Scottish Treasury somewhere.

(*) Perhaps scottish google blocks hits from the gov.scot domain.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:53:42 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:38:53 +0100, Scott wrote:

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't.

Feeding english google(*) with "scottish fire alarms"
returns:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...in-scottish-ho
mes/
https://www.gov.scot/news/proposed-d...m-regulations/
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/

Not the actual legislation but enough from the horses mouth to tell
you want is required. The funding I'd guess to be buried away in the
Scottish Treasury somewhere.

(*) Perhaps scottish google blocks hits from the gov.scot domain.
B-)

I found all that stuff but I want to see the legislation, either as
passed by the Scottish Parliament or in the form of a Regulation
promulgated by the relevant Minister. I think I'll make an FOI
request and let them tell me where it is.

On 21/10/2020 20:05, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:53:42 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:38:53 +0100, Scott wrote:

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't.

Feeding english google(*) with "scottish fire alarms"
returns:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...in-scottish-ho
mes/
https://www.gov.scot/news/proposed-d...m-regulations/
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/

Not the actual legislation but enough from the horses mouth to tell
you want is required. The funding I'd guess to be buried away in the
Scottish Treasury somewhere.

(*) Perhaps scottish google blocks hits from the gov.scot domain.
B-)

I found all that stuff but I want to see the legislation, either as
passed by the Scottish Parliament or in the form of a Regulation
promulgated by the relevant Minister. I think I'll make an FOI
request and let them tell me where it is.


Why do you think there is more than the Order to which I gave you a
link? That seems to me clear enough if you read it with the Housing
(Scotland) Act 1987 which it amends - and which requires regard to be
had to guidance from Ministers when construing what is satisfactory
equipment. Cf the building regs and "Approved Documents" in England.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 20:05:57 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/
I found all that stuff but I want to see the legislation, either as
passed by the Scottish Parliament or in the form of a Regulation
promulgated by the relevant Minister. I think I'll make an FOI
request and let them tell me where it is.

The Tolerable Standard Guidance PDF[1] refers in its first paragraph:

The tolerable standard is amended by the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987
(Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criterion) Order 2019 and now includes this new element covering smoke and heat alarms.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2019/8/contents/made

which says:

2. In section 86(1) of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (definition of house meeting tolerable standard), after paragraph (i) insert€”

€œ(j)has satisfactory equipment installed for detecting, and for giving warning of, fire or suspected fire;

(k)has satisfactory equipment installed for detecting, and for giving warning of, carbon monoxide present in a concentration that is hazardous to health,€�.

The requirement for specific alarms is given in the Guidance[1], which

defines what is €˜satisfactory by setting out the requirement for:
€¢ one smoke alarm installed in the room most frequently used for general
daytime living purposes (normally the living room/lounge);
€¢ one smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways
and landings;
€¢ one heat alarm installed in every kitchen;
€¢ all smoke and heat alarms to be ceiling mounted; and
€¢ all smoke and heat alarms to be interlinked
....
In some buildings, it may not be practical to fit fire and smoke alarms to this
exact standard.

The Guidance therefore suggests an alarm system in the Tolerable Standard which may not be the same as that required for new build in the Building Standards, or even one of the recognised grades (LD1 for example). On the other hand, the guidance does not seem to proscribe other systems such as full panel-type systems, which don't have "smoke alarms", so if you live in a castle and have a full panel system you don't need to stick some battery-powered Fire Angels in the cupola.

Owain

[1] https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...dard-guidance/

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 21:24:04 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 21/10/2020 20:05, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:53:42 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:38:53 +0100, Scott wrote:

Good point. Have you been able to locate these regulations? I
haven't.

Feeding english google(*) with "scottish fire alarms"
returns:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...in-scottish-ho
mes/
https://www.gov.scot/news/proposed-d...m-regulations/
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/

Not the actual legislation but enough from the horses mouth to tell
you want is required. The funding I'd guess to be buried away in the
Scottish Treasury somewhere.

(*) Perhaps scottish google blocks hits from the gov.scot domain.
B-)

I found all that stuff but I want to see the legislation, either as
passed by the Scottish Parliament or in the form of a Regulation
promulgated by the relevant Minister. I think I'll make an FOI
request and let them tell me where it is.


Why do you think there is more than the Order to which I gave you a
link? That seems to me clear enough if you read it with the Housing
(Scotland) Act 1987 which it amends - and which requires regard to be
had to guidance from Ministers when construing what is satisfactory
equipment. Cf the building regs and "Approved Documents" in England.

No idea. That's why I want to read the Order as is my citizen's right
in a democratic society.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 20:05:57 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...tolerable-stan
dard-guidance/
I found all that stuff but I want to see the legislation, either as
passed by the Scottish Parliament or in the form of a Regulation
promulgated by the relevant Minister. I think I'll make an FOI
request and let them tell me where it is.

The Tolerable Standard Guidance PDF[1] refers in its first paragraph:

The tolerable standard is amended by the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987
(Tolerable Standard) (Extension of Criterion) Order 2019 and now includes this new element covering smoke and heat alarms.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2019/8/contents/made

which says:

2. In section 86(1) of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 (definition of house meeting tolerable standard), after paragraph (i) insert—

“(j)has satisfactory equipment installed for detecting, and for giving warning of, fire or suspected fire;

(k)has satisfactory equipment installed for detecting, and for giving warning of, carbon monoxide present in a concentration that is hazardous to health,”.

The requirement for specific alarms is given in the Guidance[1], which

defines what is ‘satisfactory’ by setting out the requirement for:
• one smoke alarm installed in the room most frequently used for general
daytime living purposes (normally the living room/lounge);
• one smoke alarm in every circulation space on each storey, such as hallways
and landings;
• one heat alarm installed in every kitchen;
• all smoke and heat alarms to be ceiling mounted; and
• all smoke and heat alarms to be interlinked
...
In some buildings, it may not be practical to fit fire and smoke alarms to this
exact standard.

The Guidance therefore suggests an alarm system in the Tolerable Standard which may not be the same as that required for new build in the Building Standards, or even one of the recognised grades (LD1 for example). On the other hand, the guidance does not seem to proscribe other systems such as full panel-type systems, which don't have "smoke alarms", so if you live in a castle and have a full panel system you don't need to stick some battery-powered Fire Angels in the cupola.

Owain

[1] https://www.gov.scot/publications/fi...dard-guidance/

Thanks for finding that. Regrettably, my searching abilities have
conspicuously failed.

Confusion arises because the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 has not been
amended as the new paragraphs are not yet in force:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/26/section/86