A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive
to heat.

Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Enquiries with insulation specialists have produced little interest.

Harry Bloomfield, Esq. Wrote in
message:
A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive
to heat.

Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Enquiries with insulation specialists have produced little interest.


Knock it down & start again.
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 10/03/2020 12:13, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive to
heat.

Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and fix
thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or maybe
a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Enquiries with insulation specialists have produced little interest.


One of our previous houses had been extended like that. Fortunately,
there was a crawl space, accessible via a hatch in the garage, and I was
able to gain access. I lined it with foil and insulation. It made quite
a difference.

If there is a similar space, it may be worth making an access somewhere
is can't be seen.

Jimk wrote :
Knock it down & start again.

Other solutions than demolition?

On 10/03/2020 13:25, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jimk wrote :
Knock it down & start again.

Other solutions than demolition?
you need to work out which is worse: removing interior fittings and
stripping plasterboard or removing the roof.
i can't see any other solution


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

You also need to consider a vapour barrier which has to on the warm side of the insulation. Our last house had two bay windows one stacked on the other, from the outside between them they had slate outer skin behind which was some sarking and just plasterboard nailed on the vertical supports on the inside. It was bloody cold in the bedroom, I removed the PB added to the thickness of supporting stud work before filling the spaces with paper lined rock wool. The paper lining extended sideways of the width of the rock wool allowing it to be nailed to the studs to stop it sliding down, these days you would probably use batts. The whole lot was covered with a PVC vapour barrier before reattaching the PB. As far as I was aware I never had any damp issues and it was an awful lot warmer.

I suppose you could simply add studs without removing the PB, fill the spaces with batts or celutex, add a vapour barrier and re-plasterboard.

Richard

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Spray on insulation seems an ideal way to promote timber rot.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Brian Reay wrote on 10/03/2020 :
One of our previous houses had been extended like that. Fortunately, there
was a crawl space, accessible via a hatch in the garage, and I was able to
gain access. I lined it with foil and insulation. It made quite a difference.

If there is a similar space, it may be worth making an access somewhere is
can't be seen.

He says not, but it might be worth his making some access to add
insulation.

It's not an extension, it is the originally built. I'm surprised that
in the 1960's this was an acceptable way to build homes. He says his
was one of the first, later ones of the same design had to have
insulation added.

Tricky Dicky explained :
I suppose you could simply add studs without removing the PB, fill the spaces
with batts or celutex, add a vapour barrier and re-plasterboard.

I suggested that, but he has spent a small fortune on fitted furniture
along the walls and up to the walls.

Harry Bloomfield, Esq. Wrote in
message:
Tricky Dicky explained :
I suppose you could simply add studs without removing the PB, fill the spaces
with batts or celutex, add a vapour barrier and re-plasterboard.

I suggested that, but he has spent a small fortune on fitted furniture
along the walls and up to the walls.


Line the fitted furniture with insulation.
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 10/03/20 16:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay wrote on 10/03/2020 :
It's not an extension, it is the originally built. I'm surprised that in
the 1960's this was an acceptable way to build homes. He says his was
one of the first, later ones of the same design had to have insulation
added.

I bought a house like this in 1963. It had what was called "background"
central heating powered by a Baxi coal-fired back boiler. I loved the
place. We were younger and tougher then.

Anothe Dave
--
Change nospam to techie

On 10/03/2020 16:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay wrote on 10/03/2020 :
One of our previous houses had been extended like that. Fortunately,
there was a crawl space, accessible via a hatch in the garage, and I
was able to gain access. I lined it with foil and insulation. It made
quite a difference.

If there is a similar space, it may be worth making an access
somewhere is can't be seen.

He says not, but it might be worth his making some access to add
insulation.

It's not an extension, it is the originally built. I'm surprised that in
the 1960's this was an acceptable way to build homes. He says his was
one of the first, later ones of the same design had to have insulation
added.

Perhaps extension was incorrect, more like modified in the 60s style.
The upper floor, which is of interest here, was changed, as was the
(1930s) ground floor. When finished, it looked 1960s.

He did not want to remove fitted furniture, I think he may need to rethink
that a bit. There are some Dutch style houses around here with similar
issues. Built in 1939, and are single brick walls as well, like my terraced
one is, and to be honest I'd need to do a heck of a lot to make insulation
better here too, but at least I don't have roof pretending to be walls!
Brian

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"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
You also need to consider a vapour barrier which has to on the warm side of
the insulation. Our last house had two bay windows one stacked on the other,
from the outside between them they had slate outer skin behind which was
some sarking and just plasterboard nailed on the vertical supports on the
inside. It was bloody cold in the bedroom, I removed the PB added to the
thickness of supporting stud work before filling the spaces with paper lined
rock wool. The paper lining extended sideways of the width of the rock wool
allowing it to be nailed to the studs to stop it sliding down, these days
you would probably use batts. The whole lot was covered with a PVC vapour
barrier before reattaching the PB. As far as I was aware I never had any
damp issues and it was an awful lot warmer.

I suppose you could simply add studs without removing the PB, fill the
spaces with batts or celutex, add a vapour barrier and re-plasterboard.

Richard

On 10/03/2020 16:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay wrote on 10/03/2020 :
One of our previous houses had been extended like that. Fortunately,
there was a crawl space, accessible via a hatch in the garage, and I
was able to gain access. I lined it with foil and insulation. It made
quite a difference.

If there is a similar space, it may be worth making an access
somewhere is can't be seen.

He says not, but it might be worth his making some access to add
insulation.

It's not an extension, it is the originally built. I'm surprised that in
the 1960's this was an acceptable way to build homes. He says his was
one of the first, later ones of the same design had to have insulation
added.

'New' houses built near me in 2010 just had inch thick batts of
expanded polystyrene (the white stuff) just chicked inside the
cavity. No attempt to clamp it firmly to the inner leaf, so air
movement each side of the 'insulation' would have rendered it
ineffective.

1960's buildings need to be bought cheap (in poor condition)
so that remedial work (like pulling down upstairs celings of
chalet houses and fitting tightly fitting celotex with gaps
sealed with foaming adhesive between rafters) can be done
as part of the renovation.`

This is called painting oneself into a comer. He should have asked the
insulation question first. I'd have thought that rather obvious in your
description of the build. Seems an odd property to buy, unless it was
really dirt cheap.
Of course a lot of people have lived in such houses for years and its only
as fuel costs increase the folly of the design becomes apparent.
Brian

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Harry Bloomfield; "Esq." wrote in
message ...
Tricky Dicky explained :
I suppose you could simply add studs without removing the PB, fill the
spaces with batts or celutex, add a vapour barrier and re-plasterboard.

I suggested that, but he has spent a small fortune on fitted furniture
along the walls and up to the walls.

I wondered is there anything that looks like tiles that has better
insulation properties that might be able to be fitted and the tiles flogged
on to somebody needing vintage, well not very vintage I suppose, times?
Brian

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Spray on insulation seems an ideal way to promote timber rot.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

We've just bought a place like that. There's fibreglass insulation between
the ceiling joists of the ground floor, and the vertical walls of the first
floor are backed with fibreglass batts too. I'm not sure what the state of
the upper roof is like, but we'll find out next time we have to replace
the flat roof on the dormer. There are hatches to access the spaces.

I'm pondering putting some insulation between the rafter (with a suitable
air gap from the tiles) to add a second layer (partly to keep heat out), but
will probably want to see how it works over the seasons first.

Theo

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) formulated the question :
This is called painting oneself into a comer. He should have asked the
insulation question first. I'd have thought that rather obvious in your
description of the build. Seems an odd property to buy, unless it was really
dirt cheap.

and they were much younger and less bothered by the cold.

Of course a lot of people have lived in such houses for years and its only
as fuel costs increase the folly of the design becomes apparent.

He appreciates that had he done something about it long ago, it would
have easily paid for itself over the years in comfort and fuel saving.

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) presented the following explanation :
I wondered is there anything that looks like tiles that has better insulation
properties that might be able to be fitted and the tiles flogged on to
somebody needing vintage, well not very vintage I suppose, times?

Air/wind would easily flow between the tiles.

In message , Theo
writes
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

We've just bought a place like that. There's fibreglass insulation between
the ceiling joists of the ground floor, and the vertical walls of the first
floor are backed with fibreglass batts too. I'm not sure what the state of
the upper roof is like, but we'll find out next time we have to replace
the flat roof on the dormer. There are hatches to access the spaces.

I'm pondering putting some insulation between the rafter (with a suitable
air gap from the tiles) to add a second layer (partly to keep heat out), but
will probably want to see how it works over the seasons first.

I have been *doing up* a 1995 chalet bungalow over the last 2 years (not
full time:-)
There should be a small *loft* area over the upstairs rooms which gives
access to the space between the rafters and the plasterboard. Building
control like at least a 2" air gap between the under tile felt and the
top of any insulation but I managed to get 150mm slabs of Rockwool to
slide down the slots. As others have said, there needs to be a vapour
barrier on the warm side.
Our extension was *shell only* so I was able to fit the insulation
before stapling up the membrane and fitting the plasterboard. Skimming
the whole of our upstairs cost £800 so stripping out and re-fitting may
not be hugely expensive.
Cutting Rockwool was done using a handsaw with the teeth ground off and
a sharp edge maintained with a coarse grit stone (garden sickle job).

--
Tim Lamb

On 10 Mar 2020 at 12:13:24 GMT, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive
to heat.

Why draughty? That'd be one of the first things to fix.


Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Enquiries with insulation specialists have produced little interest.

The attic rooms of my house came with about 10cm of fibreglass wool between
the roof tiles and sloping ceiling. Somehow the installer had managed to stuff
it in there from the loft area. I felt it might compromise ventilation, and it
didn't seem very effective.

The method I used was during a refit, with 50mm celotex foamed to the roof
timbers, plasterboard over. Obviously a lot of mess and bother, but it's made
the rooms very easy to heat and keep warm. A 400W heater keeps the temperature
in a 6m x 4m room. at about 17C when it's freezing outside.

Probably of little interest to your pal . . . ;-)



--
Cheers, Rob

RJH wrote:
On 10 Mar 2020 at 12:13:24 GMT, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive
to heat.

Why draughty? That'd be one of the first things to fix.

That is good advice.

Decent double glazing also makes a big difference.

The house I mentioned had metal, single glazed, windows when we bought it.
Having modern, quality, uVPC double glazing fitted made a huge difference.

Brian Reay pretended :
Why draughty? That'd be one of the first things to fix.

That is good advice.

I suspect rather than an actual draught, it is just cold air dropping
out of fitted cupboard.

Decent double glazing also makes a big difference.

He has that. He said the installer struggled to work out how to fit
them on the upper floor because of the weird design/ lack of depth
between roof and wall.


The house I mentioned had metal, single glazed, windows when we bought it.
Having modern, quality, uVPC double glazing fitted made a huge difference.

In message , RJH
writes
On 10 Mar 2020 at 12:13:24 GMT, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

A friend has a 1960's chalet style semi-house, where the first floor
bedrooms are always cold. Gutters are at ground floor ceiling height.
End brick wall goes up to roof and is CWI. Upper floor windows are set
in the roof slope and have no internal cills. There is CWI at front and
rear, up to roof gutter/roof level.

There is no insulation at front, or rear, between plasterboard wall and
angle of tiled roof, which makes the place drafty, cold and expensive
to heat.

Why draughty? That'd be one of the first things to fix.


Upper floor is smaller than the ground floor, so there is a triangle of
space below the windows, maybe with a 2 or 3 foot base.

He cannot add insulation inside plasterboard walls, because of built in
furniture. What is the usual method of insulating such spaces please?

I have suggested the only way is to gain access via tile removal and
fix thick insulation between timber frame to rear of plasterboard. Or
maybe a spray on insulation foam added to rear of pasterboard.

Enquiries with insulation specialists have produced little interest.

The attic rooms of my house came with about 10cm of fibreglass wool between
the roof tiles and sloping ceiling. Somehow the installer had managed to stuff
it in there from the loft area. I felt it might compromise ventilation, and it
didn't seem very effective.

The method I used was during a refit, with 50mm celotex foamed to the roof
timbers, plasterboard over. Obviously a lot of mess and bother, but it's made
the rooms very easy to heat and keep warm. A 400W heater keeps the temperature
in a 6m x 4m room. at about 17C when it's freezing outside.

Probably of little interest to your pal . . . ;-)

Chalet bungalows often have wide soffits. Mine has 6mm ply slotted in to
the vent strip. I cut sections out between the joists for access and
screwed on an overlapped cover. With fresh paint it is not noticeable.

--
Tim Lamb

On 11/03/2020 09:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay pretended :
Why draughty? That'd be one of the first things to fix.

That is good advice.

I suspect rather than an actual draught, it is just cold air dropping
out of fitted cupboard.

Decent double glazing also makes a big difference.

He has that. He said the installer struggled to work out how to fit them
on the upper floor because of the weird design/ lack of depth between
roof and wall.


While he has fitted DG, even a 'lash up' with clear polythene can make a
huge difference. We rented when we were students and one place had huge
windows which were terrible for heat loss. Senior Management, who is
good with a sewing machine, made some lined curtains etc but even those
struggled. I added some polythene in the winter which helped a lot. The
CH was blown air, not very good, and expensive to run. Plus it was only
'piped' to a few of the rooms.

It happens that Tim Lamb formulated :
Chalet bungalows often have wide soffits. Mine has 6mm ply slotted in to the
vent strip. I cut sections out between the joists for access and screwed on
an overlapped cover. With fresh paint it is not noticeable.

Good point I had not thought of, an access point via the soffit. I will
pass that suggestion on..

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
It happens that Tim Lamb formulated :
Chalet bungalows often have wide soffits. Mine has 6mm ply slotted in
to the vent strip. I cut sections out between the joists for access
and screwed on an overlapped cover. With fresh paint it is not
noticeable.

Good point I had not thought of, an access point via the soffit. I will
pass that suggestion on..

Further to the above. We have dormer windows in several of the upstairs
rooms. I cut access doors in the internal *cheeks* and made insulated
cupboards.

--
Tim Lamb