On 28/07/2019 12:01, charles wrote:
Or were you
referring to shared neutrals which might still have caused the RCD to
trip even if the live was disconnected via the MCB? Or is there another
explanation?
while the master breaker would be double pole, the ones on subicircuits
would almost certainly be single pole.
Correct. Neutrals all come back to a big busbar and an earth neutral
short will cause anything on wiring close to it to trip.

Its a matter of whether the return conductancee via the earth short is a
reasonable fraction of the true neutral return: If it is it will divert
enough current to trip the RCD



--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay used his keyboard to write :
Agreed

We replaced one with a Siemens which, when it failed (out of warranty)
I discovered used some identical parts inside to the Bosch it had
replaced- to the point some parts I'd kept from the Bosch would fit and
allowed me to repair it.

Lots of the smaller parts in CH boilers, washing machines, cars and
many other things are common to many other makes. Why make something
from scratch, when you can buy off the shelf and add a few extra
percent, by putting it one of your own boxes?

In the same way that the Ford Anglia and the Mini both used the same Lucas
starter. But it was cheaper froma Ford dealer than a BL one.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:57:02 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:

After serious thinking Jeff Layman wrote :
Do you happen to know of a good summary of neutral-earth shorts? I've done a
bit of searching and am even more confused! For example "... I would look for
a neutral/earth fault. Not only can these can cause an RCD to operate, but it
is also possible for a neutral/earth fault to defeat an RCD and prevent it
from operating." (at
https://community.screwfix.com/threads/rcd-not-working-then-ring-main-neutrals-connected.187153/#post-1501878)

Others have responded to the question of double/single pole MCB.

What has to be understood is that RCD's are triggered to open on a
fault, by an imbalance between current of live versus the neutral
conductor.

Most MCB's are single pole, isolating just the live. If there is a
voltage differential between the N & E (there is usually several volts
difference), even if the MCB is open, with a N&E leakage, or short/ or
fault - current can still flow down that neutral, through the RCD and
cause it to trip.

Which is why so many people have such difficulty finding the causes of
an RCD constantly tripping. Simply turning MCB's off or unplugging
alone, may not allow an RCD to be reset.

That's the advantage of miniature RCBOs - break L & N and, so far as I can
tell, fitin the same space as an MCB (BICBW).
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 28/07/2019 08:18, TheChief wrote:
newshound Wrote in message:
On 27/07/2019 17:48, ARW wrote:
On 27/07/2019 17:41, TheChief wrote:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD. So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Wait, or try a non RCD supply.


These days, quite a lot of machines (e.g. my Bosch) have a little
plastic strap that comes down under the cover to the drain pump. You
pull this down hard, and it releases the catch. It is quite fiddly to
do, on the Bosch.


Hey Newshound

Thanks for that. Yes mine has this release strap, but there is
absolutely no reference to this in the manual supplied with the
machine.
Er indoors can now at least get at her uniforms she needs for work
next week.

Phil

Good result, glad to help.

For other victims, the strap sits between a couple of guides, but if you
wiggle it out from between them (like I did last week) the angle is such
that you can't then pull hard enough to release the catch. The strap has
a sort of arrow head with a hole in it. The technique, I have found, is
to spear the hole with a stiff metal skewer and then push downwards
using the skewer as a cantilever. It could have been engineered so much
better, particularly for those with limited dexterity. And, of course,
it is right down at floor level, so both difficult to get at and to see.

The drain cover has a cunning hinge which means you can remove and
replace it completely without tools. This makes it much easier to drain
the drum, using the little hose, or to take the pump cover off without
getting water everywhere. But again, this is not intuitively obvious.

Oh, and the one essential tool for these jobs is a wet and dry vacuum
cleaner, which lets you catch all the leakage without getting puddles
all over the floor.

On 27/07/2019 17:41, TheChief wrote:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD. So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Thanks

Phil

Probably too late, but many have a flap at the bottom with a drain hose
and pull to unlock the door...

Dave

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:35:09 +0100, newshound wrote:

For other victims, the strap sits between a couple of guides, but if you
wiggle it out from between them (like I did last week) the angle is such
that you can't then pull hard enough to release the catch. The strap has
a sort of arrow head with a hole in it. The technique, I have found, is
to spear the hole with a stiff metal skewer and then push downwards
using the skewer as a cantilever. It could have been engineered so much
better, particularly for those with limited dexterity. And, of course,
it is right down at floor level, so both difficult to get at and to see.

The drain cover has a cunning hinge which means you can remove and
replace it completely without tools. This makes it much easier to drain
the drum, using the little hose, or to take the pump cover off without
getting water everywhere. But again, this is not intuitively obvious.

I would suggest removing the pump cover twice a year, and cleaning out
what's in there. I encountered a situation where there was so much crud
(generated by teenage sons) that I couldn't rotate the pump cover. In the
end I replaced the pump. I used the Dremel to remove the old pump cover
in pieces, got a new cover, and now I have a spare pump!



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:59:24 +0100, David Wade wrote:

On 27/07/2019 17:41, TheChief wrote:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD. So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Thanks

Phil

Probably too late, but many have a flap at the bottom with a drain hose
and pull to unlock the door...

It has been mentioned.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 28/07/2019 22:44, PeterC wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:57:02 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:

After serious thinking Jeff Layman wrote :
Do you happen to know of a good summary of neutral-earth shorts? I've done a
bit of searching and am even more confused! For example "... I would look for
a neutral/earth fault. Not only can these can cause an RCD to operate, but it
is also possible for a neutral/earth fault to defeat an RCD and prevent it
from operating." (at
https://community.screwfix.com/threads/rcd-not-working-then-ring-main-neutrals-connected.187153/#post-1501878)

Others have responded to the question of double/single pole MCB.

What has to be understood is that RCD's are triggered to open on a
fault, by an imbalance between current of live versus the neutral
conductor.

Most MCB's are single pole, isolating just the live. If there is a
voltage differential between the N & E (there is usually several volts
difference), even if the MCB is open, with a N&E leakage, or short/ or
fault - current can still flow down that neutral, through the RCD and
cause it to trip.

Which is why so many people have such difficulty finding the causes of
an RCD constantly tripping. Simply turning MCB's off or unplugging
alone, may not allow an RCD to be reset.

That's the advantage of miniature RCBOs - break L & N and, so far as I can
tell, fitin the same space as an MCB (BICBW).



It's the cost.

Geoff from CET paid for an all RCBO installation, and so did the TMH's
daughter but they got mates rates.


--
Adam

ARW wrote:

Geoff from CET paid for an all RCBO installation, and so did the TMH's
daughter but they got mates rates.

By the time you've deducted the price of 2 RCDs and possibly used a
4-way smaller CU (or got 4-ways more space) it would feel worthwhile to
me ...

On 29/07/2019 19:33, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

Geoff from CET paid for an all RCBO installation, and so did the TMH's
daughter but they got mates rates.

By the time you've deducted the price of 2 RCDs and possibly used a
4-way smaller CU (or got 4-ways more space) it would feel worthwhile to
me ...

These were not straight CU swaps.

--
Adam

On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/07/2019 09:45, Brian Reay wrote:
mm0fmf wrote:
On 27/07/2019 18:59, TheChief wrote:
TheChief Wrote in message:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid
cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD.Â* So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Thanks

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/


Thanks guys

I'll try the lid off route tomorrow and try to recover the contents.

As it is around 10 years old it looks like a new one is in order.

Phil

If it's not worth fixing at only 10 years old it's not a Bosch / Miele
or AEG.

I dont rate either Bosch or AEG.

Our first new machine *was an Ariston, it lasted 17 years with no more
than
door seals and a door handle (perhaps a switch as well- although that may
have been a later Ariston).Â* Since then, others of various makes have
typically lasted 5 or 6 years with little difference between makes. We
now
only buy machines which have 5 year a warranty included and plan on
replacing then when they die, unless it is something trivial.

* we bought a s/h machine when we were students, it lasted several years.


Our experience with AEG ( admittedly not washing machines) hasnt been
good. Ditto Bosch.



Bosch these days are total junk.


When did they, in your opinion, stop being good / start being total junk?

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 28/07/19 10:43, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking Brian Gaff wrote :
If its a machine that still retains a mechanical switch or rotating knob,
often returning it to the off then plugging it in can release the door, but
if it does trip even then, IE its not a motor fault, then I feel you need a
person who knows the tricks of the trade.

Sorry Brian, that is wrong...

If the fault is an N to E short or leakage, then even turned off, it
can still cause an RCD to trip.

Do you happen to know of a good summary of neutral-earth shorts? I've
done a bit of searching and am even more confused! For example "... I
would look for a neutral/earth fault. Not only can these can cause an
RCD to operate, but it is also possible for a neutral/earth fault to
defeat an RCD and prevent it from operating." (at
https://community.screwfix.com/threads/rcd-not-working-then-ring-main-neutrals-connected.187153/#post-1501878)

I would have thought that a modern MCB would be double-pole and break
live and neutral (although I accept that the CU the OP was referring to
might have had an old one. Were they ever single pole?). Or were you
referring to shared neutrals which might still have caused the RCD to
trip even if the live was disconnected via the MCB? Or is there another
explanation?


Current (no pun intended) MCBs for domestic CUs are single pole.

RCDs are double pole.

Even the latest CUs have a common neutral busbar ( or two if a split load
unit) - which wouldnt work if you had double pole MCBs.

The RCD(s) cut the supplies to the live and neutral busbars or wires in
some cases.

On 29/07/2019 20:57, mm0fmf wrote:
On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/07/2019 09:45, Brian Reay wrote:
mm0fmf wrote:
On 27/07/2019 18:59, TheChief wrote:
TheChief Wrote in message:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid
cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD.Â* So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Thanks

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/


Thanks guys

I'll try the lid off route tomorrow and try to recover the contents.

As it is around 10 years old it looks like a new one is in order.

Phil

If it's not worth fixing at only 10 years old it's not a Bosch / Miele
or AEG.

I dont rate either Bosch or AEG.

Our first new machine *was an Ariston, it lasted 17 years with no
more than
door seals and a door handle (perhaps a switch as well- although that
may
have been a later Ariston).Â* Since then, others of various makes have
typically lasted 5 or 6 years with little difference between makes.
We now
only buy machines which have 5 year a warranty included and plan on
replacing then when they die, unless it is something trivial.

* we bought a s/h machine when we were students, it lasted several
years.


Our experience with AEG ( admittedly not washing machines) hasnt been
good. Ditto Bosch.



Bosch these days are total junk.


When did they, in your opinion, stop being good / start being total junk?

I dunno.

I dont buy white goods more than hopefully every 20 years


--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bosch these days are total junk.

Is that relative to what they were several years ago or relative to
other brands now?

On 30/07/2019 15:41, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bosch these days are total junk.

Is that relative to what they were several years ago or relative to
other brands now?

Most other brands are total junk.


20 year repairable cheaply white goods are not profitable

Go and look in your council tip.

A lot of two year old stuff is being scrapped.


--
"If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

On 30/07/2019 15:41, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bosch these days are total junk.

Is that relative to what they were several years ago or relative to
other brands now?

Well from his other reply it's neither relative to how they are now or
how they were then but more based on his like of just causing discord,
disharmony and general trolling.

Ask not for whom the KF calls as it calls for you TNP.

On 30/07/2019 17:45, mm0fmf wrote:
On 30/07/2019 15:41, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bosch these days are total junk.

Is that relative to what they were several years ago or relative to
other brands now?

Well from his other reply it's neither relative to how they are now or
how they were then but more based on his like of just causing discord,
disharmony and general trolling.

Oh dear. No. its based on my experience. All bosch I have had dealings
with are junk.
But they are not alone., Bosch is one of 4 badges from the same
company., They are all junk too

Ask not for whom the KF calls as it calls for you TNP.


Yawn

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 29/07/2019 11:47, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:59:24 +0100, David Wade wrote:

On 27/07/2019 17:41, TheChief wrote:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD. So it
cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Thanks

Phil

Probably too late, but many have a flap at the bottom with a drain hose
and pull to unlock the door...

It has been mentioned.


And it might get mentioned again in 6 years time from a poster at the
Home Owners Hub.

--
Adam

On Tuesday, 30 July 2019 18:53:02 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/07/2019 17:45, mm0fmf wrote:
On 30/07/2019 15:41, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 28/07/2019 10:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bosch these days are total junk.

Is that relative to what they were several years ago or relative to
other brands now?

Well from his other reply it's neither relative to how they are now or
how they were then but more based on his like of just causing discord,
disharmony and general trolling.

Oh dear. No. its based on my experience. All bosch I have had dealings
with are junk.
But they are not alone., Bosch is one of 4 badges from the same
company., They are all junk too

Ask not for whom the KF calls as it calls for you TNP.


Yawn

The couple of modern Bosches I've had have not fared well. Even the £15 Ferm AG outlasted them - by a long way. I'm not a Bosch fan.


NT

On 29/07/2019 09:35, newshound wrote:
On 28/07/2019 08:18, TheChief wrote:
newshound Wrote in message:
On 27/07/2019 17:48, ARW wrote:
On 27/07/2019 17:41, TheChief wrote:

Hi Guys

How do I open the door to a washing machine when it has died mid
cycle.

I cannot power the machine up without tripping the RCD.Â* So it
Â*Â* cannot complete the wash and release the door.

Without a hammer or crowbar is there a way to retrieve the washing?

Wait, or try a non RCD supply.


These days, quite a lot of machines (e.g. my Bosch) have a little
plastic strap that comes down under the cover to the drain pump. You
pull this down hard, and it releases the catch. It is quite fiddly to
do, on the Bosch.


Hey Newshound

Thanks for that. Yes mine has this release strap,Â* but there is
Â* absolutely no reference to this in the manual supplied with the
Â* machine.
Er indoors can now at least get at her uniforms she needs for work
Â* next week.

Phil

Good result, glad to help.

For other victims, the strap sits between a couple of guides, but if you
wiggle it out from between them (like I did last week) the angle is such
that you can't then pull hard enough to release the catch. The strap has
a sort of arrow head with a hole in it. The technique, I have found, is
to spear the hole with a stiff metal skewer and then push downwards
using the skewer as a cantilever. It could have been engineered so much
better, particularly for those with limited dexterity. And, of course,
it is right down at floor level, so both difficult to get at and to see.

The drain cover has a cunning hinge which means you can remove and
replace it completely without tools. This makes it much easier to drain
the drum, using the little hose, or to take the pump cover off without
getting water everywhere. But again, this is not intuitively obvious.

Oh, and the one essential tool for these jobs is a wet and dry vacuum
cleaner, which lets you catch all the leakage without getting puddles
all over the floor.

When our washing machine failed, I just moved it to the kitchen door and
dropped the hose outside. Gravity then drained it.

Luckily for us the RCD was only tripping as the heater was energised, so
getting the door to open was not a problem. I have not investigated how
to do so without power.

Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop
within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes - a
pain when you are waiting for it to finish.

SteveW

On 30/07/2019 21:32, Steve Walker wrote:


Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop
within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes - a
pain when you are waiting for it to finish.


And it's long 3 minutes when you realise that the two grand someone has
just paid for some work doing is in your trouser pocket behind the door.

--
Adam

On 31/07/2019 19:59, ARW wrote:
On 30/07/2019 21:32, Steve Walker wrote:


Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete
stop within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full
minutes - a pain when you are waiting for it to finish.


And it's long 3 minutes when you realise that the two grand someone has
just paid for some work doing is in your trouser pocket behind the door.

Ouch!

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 21:32:46 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop
within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes - a
pain when you are waiting for it to finish.

Some of those interlocks are thermal: i.e. bimetal strip carries a current,
heats, bends and locks, and needs to cool to unlock.


Thomas Prufer

Steve Walker wrote:

why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our machine finishes
pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop within seconds,
yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes

My "proper old" Hotpoint had a mechanical interlock that let you open
the door the moment the drum came to rest, the new
"Indesit/Ariston/Hotpoint" makes you wait ages with a thermal interlock.

On 06/08/2019 09:14, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 21:32:46 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop
within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes - a
pain when you are waiting for it to finish.

Some of those interlocks are thermal: i.e. bimetal strip carries a current,
heats, bends and locks, and needs to cool to unlock.

That would explain them not being instant, but why on earth make them so
it takes a full three minutes? Thirty seconds would be more than good
enough, with plenty of leeway and you could design such an interlock for
roughly any time you wanted.

Actually

On 06/08/2019 09:14, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 21:32:46 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

Incidentally, why do the door interlocks have such long delays? Our
machine finishes pumping and stops spinning and comes to a complete stop
within seconds, yet won't allow opening the door for 3 full minutes - a
pain when you are waiting for it to finish.

Some of those interlocks are thermal: i.e. bimetal strip carries a current,
heats, bends and locks, and needs to cool to unlock.

see

How a washing machine door interlock with time delay works.


https://youtu.be/PIm7q_U3UEM


bigclivedotcom
Published on 7 Jun 2019

Like most of the components used in home washing machines the door locking mechanism is ultra cost optimised and refined for cheap and easy manufacture. Yet it performs three separate functions. Locking the door, enabling the machine when the door is fully locked and unlocking the door after a time delay to allow a spinning drum to come to a halt before it can be opened.





--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.