https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Cheers




Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

In article ,
David wrote:
Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual‘s personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual‘s interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person‘s routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer‘s
patient leaving an oven on

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on? It could
detect an abnormal load in the middle of the night, I suppose. So best to
tell it when you have a party. Or do the washing at night.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 04 Feb 2019 18:43:37 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual‘s personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual‘s interactions with electrical
devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person‘s routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer‘s
patient leaving an oven on

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on? It
could detect an abnormal load in the middle of the night, I suppose. So
best to tell it when you have a party. Or do the washing at night.

Also some people may leave the light on all night, or lie in the dark when
depressed.

Anyone with random timed lighting when they are on holiday may get their
door broken down, of course.

I can see all sorts of technical issues, but I'm more concerned that there
is a proposal to centrally log and analyse detailed personal data about
electricity usage profiles, linked to both the home address and one or
more disease diagnoses.

Not that these would ever be accessed by anyone but incorruptible trained
professionals, of course.

Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Monday, 4 February 2019 18:18:21 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
... person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night.

And a piece in the Metro today about online shopping at night.

So now Google will be able to tell you're depressed and encourage you to buy more stuff you don't need.

Owain

On 04/02/2019 19:41, wrote:
On Monday, 4 February 2019 18:18:21 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
... person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night.

And a piece in the Metro today about online shopping at night.

So now Google will be able to tell you're depressed and encourage you to buy more stuff you don't need.


They can collect information from the Nest thermostats. A good reason
to avoid that product.

--
Michael Chare

"David" wrote in message ...
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual's personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home.

You haven't quoted any context, or who made that claim. And so as such
it has no value whatsoever.

In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

The real scare story here isn't Big Brother accumulating even more
information on the incredibly boring lives being led of by around 99%
of the population, but the fact that such software might be used
as a possible justification for reducing actual care in the form
of home visits or actual human monitoring at all.

Just a money saving exercise in other words.

remainder left in to provide context

This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual's interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person's routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer's
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad night's sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the user's behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of data all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

....

David formulated on Monday :
So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

It must have been a desperately slow news day, for them have had to
make something up like that. Most of what is described is simply
impossible for anyone with half clue about them.

I think though that its a benign way to stay independent and not to have to
have a carer visit people who are doing OK. You would opt in of course.
I'm not saying that these things cannot be used for bad things, but like all
things, they are envisaged as a good thing, helping people be independent
and saving money for the service provider. The problem I see is that if this
data is the property, of say, Npower, how much will they try to screw out of
the NHS to let them have it, I wonder. It could end up like the way the drug
companies 'allowed' shortages to occur in the supply chain to drive up
prices. Shades of the oil rich nations restricting oil to get more money per
barrel.
The unacceptable face of capitalism once again.
So stop worrying about snooping and start worrying about the corporate
fleecing of the state and us.

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"David" wrote in message
...
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual's personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual's interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person's routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer's
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad night's sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the user's behaviour at
home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Cheers




Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Yes the internet of things is far more scary I think.
The thing is, sooner or later somebody will hack the system and cause
absolute havoc.

I see my local MP wants us to build power storage systems all over the
place to make renewable energy more competitive. So large batteries or what?
Mind you he is Edward Davey.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David wrote:
Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual's personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual's interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person's routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer's
patient leaving an oven on

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on? It could
detect an abnormal load in the middle of the night, I suppose. So best to
tell it when you have a party. Or do the washing at night.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 4 February 2019 18:49:59 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David wrote:
Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individual€˜s personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individual€˜s interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a person€˜s routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimer€˜s
patient leaving an oven on

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on? It could
detect an abnormal load in the middle of the night, I suppose. So best to
tell it when you have a party. Or do the washing at night.


In some ways, that is a major indictment of the idea. That the inferences drawn from the smart meters could very well be substantially or wholly wrong..

It is so very easy for those developing the software to convince themselves that they are correctly interpreting the information. But it is extraordinarily difficult to cater for the huge range on confounding factors. From the trivial, for example regarding things on a time switch as evidence of healthy human activity, to things that are likely far more subtle and difficult to account for.

David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Or more sinister, €œ We havent secured enough power for the country, we
deem you healthy enough not to need a lot of heating today so are rationed
to x kilowatts before we cut you off. If you want to be warm go and do
some exercise.€� I suppose a generator on an exercise bike would let
the user charge their phone

GH

On Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:55:11 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It must have been a desperately slow news day, for them have had to
make something up like that. Most of what is described is simply
impossible for anyone with half clue about them.

You've not looked at your electricity use profile then. I can see
from our logs of electricity consumption, when we go to bed, when we
get up, if we are in or out during the day, what time we have our
evening meal, how many times the kettle goes on, when the telly goes
on, when SWMBO'd has left the iron on. I can't tell where either of
us are in the home, but if you're living on your own... I'm a little
dubious about how useful or reliable any flags that such a data
analaysis might raise are but in general terms "it" will "know".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:13:17 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google wrote:

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on?

It learns. It may no know which particular device has just switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same load
switching on/off.

It is so very easy for those developing the software to convince
themselves that they are correctly interpreting the information. But it
is extraordinarily difficult to cater for the huge range on confounding
factors.

From the trivial, for example regarding things on a time switch as
evidence of healthy human activity, to things that are likely far more
subtle and difficult to account for.

That's were the learning comes in. Something on a time switch or
thermostat going to have a reasonably easy to spot profile. Time
switch driven events happen at or very close to the same time, even
with a 7 day or 5+2 time switch. Thermostatic events may have a
variable time between them but the heating or cooling between the
essentailly fixed on/off temperatures is going to be very similar.
Programable stats will have time of day element but like a simple
time switch not that hard to spot.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday, 4 February 2019 19:54:30 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"David" wrote in message ...

snip

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of data all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

...

The first thing that happens when I interact with most companies (other than simply paying for goods at a till) is they go for a data grab, and it normally includes data irrelevant to the business being done. It has nothing to do with interesting lives or crazy people imaginining they're the centre of attention, it has simply become a business norm these days. Data has commercial value and companies are routinely overestimating the value of it & grabbing whatever they can.


NT

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 00:10:26 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:13:17 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google wrote:

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on?

It learns. It may no know which particular device has just switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same load
switching on/off.

It is so very easy for those developing the software to convince
themselves that they are correctly interpreting the information. But it
is extraordinarily difficult to cater for the huge range on confounding
factors.

From the trivial, for example regarding things on a time switch as
evidence of healthy human activity, to things that are likely far more
subtle and difficult to account for.

That's were the learning comes in. Something on a time switch or
thermostat going to have a reasonably easy to spot profile. Time
switch driven events happen at or very close to the same time, even
with a 7 day or 5+2 time switch. Thermostatic events may have a
variable time between them but the heating or cooling between the
essentailly fixed on/off temperatures is going to be very similar.
Programable stats will have time of day element but like a simple
time switch not that hard to spot.

Lights are steady loads of 5-50w typically with low pf.
TVs have a varying load pattern that I think is fairly characteristic.
Heating has a recognisable pattern
Microwaving ditto
Hobs & ovens ditto
Small appliances I don't know if it would resolve among the other noise
Power tools should be fairly easy to spot
PIR exterior lights are quite characteristic loads

So it probably is possible to work out mostly what's going on if the data is sampled frequently enough. Of course interpretations of that will be riddled with errors. The idea that anyone awake at night is depressed is rather silly.


NT

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Most of what is described is simply
impossible for anyone with half clue about them.

You've not looked at your electricity use profile then.

That's OK if you have (near) real-time access to your consumption. By
default a smart meter only takes a reading once a month, you'd have to
actively choose daily or per half-hour readings.

On 04/02/2019 18:18, David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.


I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be
reliable.

As for using the same data to 'spy' on people, even for advertising, I'm
less paranoid than some. If EON / Southern Electric want to know that I
have a coffee mid morning, dinner around 6pm, the heating is set for xyz
etc ....., is it really that invasive? If a total stranger asked if I
enjoyed a mid morning coffee, I'd not worry about answering.




--
Always smile when walking, you never know where there is a camera ;-)

Remarkable Coincidences:
The Stock Market Crashes of 1929 and 2008 happened on the same
date in October. In Oct 1907, a run on the Knickerbocker Trust
Company led to the Great Depression.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:13:17 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google wrote:

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on?

It learns. It may no know which particular device has just switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same load
switching on/off.

It is so very easy for those developing the software to convince
themselves that they are correctly interpreting the information. But it
is extraordinarily difficult to cater for the huge range on confounding
factors.

From the trivial, for example regarding things on a time switch as
evidence of healthy human activity, to things that are likely far more
subtle and difficult to account for.

That's were the learning comes in. Something on a time switch or
thermostat going to have a reasonably easy to spot profile. Time
switch driven events happen at or very close to the same time, even
with a 7 day or 5+2 time switch. Thermostatic events may have a
variable time between them but the heating or cooling between the
essentailly fixed on/off temperatures is going to be very similar.
Programable stats will have time of day element but like a simple
time switch not that hard to spot.

The only thing we have on a time switch is our immersion heater.
There's also an electric door opener (for the chickens!) running from
a photocell but that will vary a lot according the the weather as well
as the time of year. I doubt if anything else is regular at all as
we're quite a large household (4 adults, lots of dogs and cats, etc.)
and one of us in particular lives a rather irregulat and 'inside out'
sort of timetable.

--
Chris Green
·

wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 00:10:26 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 14:13:17 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google wrote:

And pray tell how a smart meter knows just what has been left on?

It learns. It may no know which particular device has just switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same load
switching on/off.

It is so very easy for those developing the software to convince
themselves that they are correctly interpreting the information. But it
is extraordinarily difficult to cater for the huge range on confounding
factors.

From the trivial, for example regarding things on a time switch as
evidence of healthy human activity, to things that are likely far more
subtle and difficult to account for.

That's were the learning comes in. Something on a time switch or
thermostat going to have a reasonably easy to spot profile. Time
switch driven events happen at or very close to the same time, even
with a 7 day or 5+2 time switch. Thermostatic events may have a
variable time between them but the heating or cooling between the
essentailly fixed on/off temperatures is going to be very similar.
Programable stats will have time of day element but like a simple
time switch not that hard to spot.

Lights are steady loads of 5-50w typically with low pf.
TVs have a varying load pattern that I think is fairly characteristic.
Heating has a recognisable pattern
Microwaving ditto
Hobs & ovens ditto
Small appliances I don't know if it would resolve among the other noise
Power tools should be fairly easy to spot
PIR exterior lights are quite characteristic loads

So it probably is possible to work out mostly what's going on if the data
is sampled frequently enough. Of course interpretations of that will be
riddled with errors. The idea that anyone awake at night is depressed is
rather silly.

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

--
Chris Green
·

Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Most of what is described is simply
impossible for anyone with half clue about them.

You've not looked at your electricity use profile then.

That's OK if you have (near) real-time access to your consumption. By
default a smart meter only takes a reading once a month, you'd have to
actively choose daily or per half-hour readings.

Surely you'd need a continuous plot to tell you anything even remotely
useful (apart from how much to charge that is).

--
Chris Green
·

On 05/02/2019 08:02, Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2019 18:18, David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at
home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.


I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea-Â* if it is found to be
reliable.

As for using the same data to 'spy' on people, even for advertising, I'm
less paranoid than some.Â* If EON / Southern Electric want to know that I
have a coffee mid morning, dinner around 6pm, the heating is set for xyz
etc ....., is it really that invasive? If a total stranger asked if I
enjoyed a mid morning coffee, I'd not worry about answering.

Criminals working for the suppliers might like to know when you are not
at home.


--
Michael Chare

On 05/02/2019 08:21, Chris Green wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Most of what is described is simply
impossible for anyone with half clue about them.

You've not looked at your electricity use profile then.

That's OK if you have (near) real-time access to your consumption. By
default a smart meter only takes a reading once a month, you'd have to
actively choose daily or per half-hour readings.

Surely you'd need a continuous plot to tell you anything even remotely
useful (apart from how much to charge that is).


Useful for what?

This isn't about critical systems - eg an automated landing system for
airliners. If the system is used simply to alert health visitors,
social workers etc to visit people (or to visit them sooner than they
would otherwise) then "false positives" have a financial cost but do not
harm anyone.

And a SMETS2 meter is technically capable of providing data at intervals
much less than 30 minutes. But suppliers aren't allowed to collect data
with that granularity - and even 30 mins needs explicit consent from
consumers.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Monday, 4 February 2019 18:18:21 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.


There'll be problems too with anyone with solar PV panels.

Michael Chare wrote:

Criminals working for the suppliers might like to know when you are not
at home.

Looking for a car on the drive, or ringing the doorbell is likely to be
more reliable at that ...

On 05/02/2019 08:42, Michael Chare wrote:
On 05/02/2019 08:02, Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2019 18:18, David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage.
The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at
home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.


I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea-Â* if it is found to be
reliable.

As for using the same data to 'spy' on people, even for advertising,
I'm less paranoid than some.Â* If EON / Southern Electric want to know
that I have a coffee mid morning, dinner around 6pm, the heating is
set for xyz etc ....., is it really that invasive? If a total stranger
asked if I enjoyed a mid morning coffee, I'd not worry about answering.

Criminals working for the suppliers might like to know when you are not
at home.


There are far easier ways to do that.

(No car on drive etc)

--
Always smile when walking, you never know where there is a camera ;-)

Remarkable Coincidences:
The Stock Market Crashes of 1929 and 2008 happened on the same
date in October. In Oct 1907, a run on the Knickerbocker Trust
Company led to the Great Depression.

Andy Burns submitted this idea :
That's OK if you have (near) real-time access to your consumption. By default
a smart meter only takes a reading once a month, you'd have to actively
choose daily or per half-hour readings.

...and the 30 minute readings are stored and forwarded in one
transmission, so it is still not actual live data. The mobile network
could never cope with live data.

It happens that Dave Liquorice formulated :
It learns. It may no know which particular device has just switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same load
switching on/off.

I think you are assuming a level of intelligence and processing in the
meter, which simply does not exist.

Brian Reay submitted this idea :
I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the elderly /
infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be reliable.

Even supposing it were possible, there are much better ways like heart
monitors to trigger alarms.

formulated the question :
So it probably is possible to work out mostly what's going on if the data is
sampled frequently enough. Of course interpretations of that will be riddled
with errors. The idea that anyone awake at night is depressed is rather
silly.

It would certainly be struggling with me - I sleep when I feel the need
and often rise in the early hours restless, to work on something. I
usually rise between 07:30 and 08:30, but this morning slept through to
10:00.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I think you are assuming a level of intelligence and processing in the
meter, which simply does not exist.

I think the proposed system would rely on additional analysis done
centrally, I agree that even 30 minute data is not much to go on, but
over a period of weeks/months it could learn the bones of what's normal
for a given house, and across a whole fleet of meters it could adjust
for seasonal variations ... so it *might* be able to tell that Mrs
Jones' daily variations from "using stuff" on top of the background are
no longer happening and maybe she's pegged it!

You'd hope that relatives and neighbours would do a better job though,
bloke down the road pegged it after christmas, it wasn't the post or
milkbottles that came to attention but the wheelie bin left out longer
than normal.

On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 10:57:50 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It learns. It may no know which particular device has just
switched
on (or off) but it'll know the history of something of the same
load
switching on/off.

I think you are assuming a level of intelligence and processing in the
meter, which simply does not exist.

Not in the meter but applied to the data the meter sends.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 09:53:43 UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns submitted this idea :

That's OK if you have (near) real-time access to your consumption. By default
a smart meter only takes a reading once a month, you'd have to actively
choose daily or per half-hour readings.

..and the 30 minute readings are stored and forwarded in one
transmission, so it is still not actual live data. The mobile network
could never cope with live data.

I daresay it could cope with a small minority of people being closely monitored no problem.

On 05/02/2019 09:38, Brian Reay wrote:
On 05/02/2019 08:42, Michael Chare wrote:
On 05/02/2019 08:02, Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2019 18:18, David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical
devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression
remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity
usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats,
their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at
home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.


I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea-Â* if it is found to be
reliable.

As for using the same data to 'spy' on people, even for advertising,
I'm less paranoid than some.Â* If EON / Southern Electric want to know
that I have a coffee mid morning, dinner around 6pm, the heating is
set for xyz etc ....., is it really that invasive? If a total
stranger asked if I enjoyed a mid morning coffee, I'd not worry about
answering.

Criminals working for the suppliers might like to know when you are
not at home.


There are far easier ways to do that.

(No car on drive etc)

Not very reliable though, as many families have a young child, a stay at
home parent and the one working has the car; or an elderly person who no
longer drives, but carers come and go; or a couple where one is shift
worker and sleeping during the day. Knocking on the door would be much
more accurate, but is open to being reported to the police (possibly
with CCTV footage), especially if a nearby neighbour, with no-one in, is
robbed soon after.

As an example of the risks: apparently, two nights ago, a car with four
men in it drove slowly along our road, with no lights on, in the early
hours of the morning. They were seen and the registration reported to
the police.

Far better for criminals if they can remotely identify when a house is
likely to be unoccupied and look it over with Streetview.

SteveW

EON keep pushing me to get a smart meter and I've told them I don't want one. Their reply "That's fine. We'll contact you again about it in a few months".

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 11:08:24 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be

reliable.

Even supposing it were possible, there are much better ways like heart
monitors to trigger alarms.

Always assuming that the person remembers to wear it, keep it
charged, switch it on, etc etc. Even the simple dongle round the neck
emergency call button can be a challenge for some.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 04:39:06 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

EON keep pushing me to get a smart meter and I've told them I don't want
one.

They keep nagging me as well. I tried to tell them no, once, but
their system was down so couldn't register the instruction. I just
ignore them now, that includes at least one card through the door.

Their reply "That's fine. We'll contact you again about it in a few
months".

I'd answer that with "What don't you understand about No?" If I
change my mind I'll contact the relevant supplier at that time.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 12:39:32 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

People frequently stop doing what they generally do, so such data won't have any validity for a day or two. Not a good way to detect falls etc but better than nothing, & no hardware cost.

Of course it will be misused too, these things ever are. Burglars would love to get their hands on a list of addresses where no activity has happened for 3 days. It's worth £££ so will happen.


NT

On 05/02/2019 13:03, wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 12:39:32 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

People frequently stop doing what they generally do, so such data won't have any validity for a day or two. Not a good way to detect falls etc but better than nothing, & no hardware cost.

Of course it will be misused too, these things ever are. Burglars would love to get their hands on a list of addresses where no activity has happened for 3 days. It's worth £££ so will happen.


Do you mean just like happens with employees of ISPs telling burglars
when there's been no activity at an address? (I know some people use
remote access, stream security video etc but that's not different in
kind from the power used while people are away for PVRs, heating,
automatic watering systems, people coming in to check the post etc etc.)




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 08:33:07 UTC, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

They almost certainly do know about power factor as they digitise
current and voltage and calculate power delivered from those
measurements. That gives them everything necessary to know the
overall power factor.

The smart meters I have seen the insides of use a four-terminal
current sense resistor and a resistive divider to get current and
voltage data which is conditioned with analogue op-amps and then
digitised.

John