wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 08:33:07 UTC, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

They almost certainly do know about power factor as they digitise
current and voltage and calculate power delivered from those
measurements. That gives them everything necessary to know the
overall power factor.

Overall maybe yes, but if you have a good mix of devices it will
probably mask any useful information.

--
Chris Green
·

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 4 February 2019 19:54:30 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...

snip

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of data all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

...

~ The first thing that happens when I interact with most companies (other than
~ simply paying for goods at a till) is they go for a data grab, and it normally
~ includes data irrelevant to the business being done. It has nothing to do with
~ interesting lives or crazy people imagining they're the centre of attention, it
~ has simply become a business norm these days. Data has commercial
~ value and companies are routinely overestimating the value of it & grabbing
~ whatever they can.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Every time you make a payment
with a credit or debit card you're providing further information to the card
company in addition to the masses of data they already hold on you. The
profile such data could generate is far more informative than anything that
could be gleaned from the smart meter data which seems to be causing such
concern. So unless all the tin foil hat brigade also forgo the use of
credit cards I fail to see their point.

Which isn't to say that advertising targeted at broad groups, say certain age
groups rather than at individuals as such, wouldn't be more effective. But
that's another issue.

Which isn't to say that the "internet of things" is necessarily a good thing.
Basically ceding control of any aspect of your life to potential incompetents
and/or the purveyors of bull**** unless absolutely necessary is a very bad
idea IMO


michael adams

....

On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 13:03:21 UTC, wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 12:39:32 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

People frequently stop doing what they generally do, so such data won't have any validity for a day or two. Not a good way to detect falls etc but better than nothing, & no hardware cost.

Of course it will be misused too, these things ever are. Burglars would love to get their hands on a list of addresses where no activity has happened for 3 days. It's worth £££ so will happen.

I doubt that would be very relible as an indication of no one being home.
As I doubt most would swtich off fridge/freezers if they were just away for 3 days. In winter some might leave things on low level, and if they had their lights come on for security.
And even if yuo did get the info I would most likely be to late unless yuo could travel back in time to the dates when little electricity was used and break in or be able to predict when peokle might not be home like the weekend.

So I wouldn't be too worried by smartmeters from this POV.

It's probbaly easisr for a burglar to check whether yuor car is about or wherehr the junk mail has been recycled is more of a worry.

michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm
alive' button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to
daily and much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution
which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm alive' button to push
once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily and much more reliable. Why look
for a more complex solution which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an
indicator?

Were that the sole reason for supplying a smart meter in a
particular location, then that might very well be true.

However one of the few undoubted benefits of smart meters to
vulnerable customers at least, is that they could also
provide an assured supply in the event of planned power cuts
or rationing, should this ever prove necessary.


michael adams

....

michael adams brought next idea :
However one of the few undoubted benefits of smart meters to
vulnerable customers at least, is that they could also
provide an assured supply in the event of planned power cuts
or rationing, should this ever prove necessary.

A good point indeed. Much less granular that denying supplies to whole
areas during shortages.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
Brian Reay submitted this idea :
I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the elderly
/ infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be reliable.

Even supposing it were possible, there are much better ways like heart
monitors to trigger alarms.

But it can be hard to get the ancients to use them.

Not true of a decent set of internal cameras tho, but
again, some don't like the idea of being watched all
the time, particularly in the bathroom and toilet which
is one area where they are needed more than most.

Movement detectors arent as bad in that regard.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
formulated the question :
So it probably is possible to work out mostly what's going on if the data
is sampled frequently enough. Of course interpretations of that will be
riddled with errors. The idea that anyone awake at night is depressed is
rather silly.

It would certainly be struggling with me

Me too.

I sleep when I feel the need and often rise in the early hours restless,
to work on something.

I just get up when I wake up in the night with an active
brain instead of just lying there not being able to sleep.
And then go back to bed a few hours later and sleep fine.

I usually rise between 07:30 and 08:30, but this morning slept through to
10:00.

I normally start between 03:30 and 04:30
and very occasionally sleep in till 06:00

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I think you are assuming a level of intelligence and processing in the
meter, which simply does not exist.

I think the proposed system would rely on additional analysis done
centrally, I agree that even 30 minute data is not much to go on, but over
a period of weeks/months it could learn the bones of what's normal for a
given house, and across a whole fleet of meters it could adjust for
seasonal variations ... so it *might* be able to tell that Mrs Jones'
daily variations from "using stuff" on top of the background are no longer
happening and maybe she's pegged it!

Can also just be due to the appliance dying and slow to replace etc.

You'd hope that relatives and neighbours would do a better job though,

Can be worse too tho. I know all my neighbours very well and
they do try to do that but it doesn't always work very well.

I now use my mobile for all inwards and outwards calls
and only get spam on the landline. When they are in
some doubt about whether I am ok, they normally do
ring me when they can't see me inside the house after
they show up a couple of times. But since I only get
spam calls on the landline anymore, and don't pay
for Caller ID on that anymore, if the landline rings
when I am cooking dinner etc I usually don't bother
to answer it when its not convenient. Did that a
while ago and when it rang again after dinner,
assumed it was just the same spammer calling
again. Turned out that it was actually my neighbours
son who no longer lives in this town who had been
told by his dad that he hadn't seen me when he
came to the door a couple of times. So he rang
to check if I was ok but only had the landline
in his contacts. I go to bed quite early and when
that neighbour checked with the neighbour on
the other side if he had seen me after I didn't
answer both calls, they started banging on the
door to see if I was ok.

A proper automated system using the movement
detectors I already have for the lights would be
much more reliable.

bloke down the road pegged it after christmas, it wasn't the post or
milkbottles that came to attention

Neither work for me, never had milk delivery and get
so little snail mail now that even the posty wouldn't
twig for months.

but the wheelie bin left out longer than normal.

That wouldn't work for me either. I only put it out
every few months because I generate so little waste.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

Movement sensors would be a much better approach.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 11:08:24 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be

reliable.

Even supposing it were possible, there are much better ways like heart
monitors to trigger alarms.

Always assuming that the person remembers to wear it, keep it
charged, switch it on, etc etc. Even the simple dongle round the neck
emergency call button can be a challenge for some.

Not just a challenge. We could never get my dad to wear one.
He seemed to see it as an admission that he was past it.

He did get a mobile phone himself so he could call someone
if he managed to have a fall when out walking in the retirement
village for exercise, but refused to wear an emergency call button.
Just left it on the table in easy reach.

And an uncuttable one that has it permanently on your wrist
or around your neck is a bit over the top.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 12:39:32 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 08:19:23 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

But the meters don't (as far as I know) analyse the power factor of
the load do they? ... and even if they did then they don't have the
ability to analyse a mixed load and thus work out which of several
devices you have turned on.

The meter doesn't have to do anything other than report the
consumption of the a given period. The data analysis is done
elsewhere using the entire data set. Don't under estimate the power
and capabilty of modern data processing.

Given a big enough data set it isn't that hard to spot similar
changes taking place at around the same time be that daily or 5+2
days. The system doesn't need to know that it's the kettle that gets
used somewhere around 0730 weekday mornings just that something is.
It's the patterns and any regularity that is looked for.

30 mins is probably a bit long TBH but I reckon you could still spot
when someone gets up, goes to bed, etc. It's not going to work very
well, if at all for a multioccupancy household, it's not aimed at
that though. It's aimed at people slightly "at risk" and living
alone.

Say person has a fall and stops doing what they would normally do. It
might take the system several hours to flag up that the person was
following their normal pattern but has now stopped all apparent
activity. ie. power consuption is still at normal "in and active"
levels, but is far too constant, no cups of tea, telly on/off, no
meal prep, no lights on/off etc. If they'd gone out the lights, telly
etc would have been turned off so consumption would be lower.

People frequently stop doing what they generally do, so such
data won't have any validity for a day or two. Not a good way
to detect falls etc but better than nothing, & no hardware cost.

Of course it will be misused too, these things ever are. Burglars
would love to get their hands on a list of addresses where no
activity has happened for 3 days. It's worth £££ so will happen.

Bet it doesnt, because the alternatives like checking in person
are something even the stupidest druggy can manage.

"michael adams" wrote in message
o.uk...

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 4 February 2019 19:54:30 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...

snip

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that
they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of data
all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

...

~ The first thing that happens when I interact with most companies (other
than
~ simply paying for goods at a till) is they go for a data grab, and it
normally
~ includes data irrelevant to the business being done. It has nothing to
do with
~ interesting lives or crazy people imagining they're the centre of
attention, it
~ has simply become a business norm these days. Data has commercial
~ value and companies are routinely overestimating the value of it &
grabbing
~ whatever they can.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Every time you make a payment
with a credit or debit card you're providing further information to the
card
company in addition to the masses of data they already hold on you. The
profile such data could generate is far more informative than anything
that
could be gleaned from the smart meter data which seems to be causing such
concern. So unless all the tin foil hat brigade also forgo the use of
credit cards I fail to see their point.

Which isn't to say that advertising targeted at broad groups, say certain
age
groups rather than at individuals as such, wouldn't be more effective. But
that's another issue.

Which isn't to say that the "internet of things" is necessarily a good
thing.
Basically ceding control of any aspect of your life to potential
incompetents
and/or the purveyors of bull**** unless absolutely necessary is a very bad
idea IMO

More fool you when say it keeps track of the barcodes of the packaging
you put in the bin, keeps track of what you have bought that way and
suggest that you might want some more of that when you go shopping
with you free to decide that you don’t want any more of that etc.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Quicker responding systems cost money & very few are willing to spend on that. Using existing equipment at no added cost could be widely deployed. Not everyone will consent though.


NT

2987fr has brought this to us :
Movement sensors would be a much better approach.

I agree, but even they are not infallible. There could be periods of up
to 8 hours or more, when you might be in bed. Equally, you could be
lying injured or dying for 8 hours - motion sensors cannot tell the
difference between the two states and it would be entirely wrong to
rely on a 'usual pattern of movement' for either metering or motion
sensors.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm
alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily
and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Quicker responding systems cost money

The ones used for lights respond quicker than most.

& very few are willing to spend on that.

Bull****.

Using existing equipment at no added
cost could be widely deployed.

There will always be an additional costs to poll smart
meters often enough to decide if someone is no
longer using electricity at the rate they normally do.

In spades with sending someone around to see if they
have a medical problem or have just changed the way
they do things because say an appliance has broken
or they have chosen to go out for the day etc.

Not everyone will consent though.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
2987fr has brought this to us :
Movement sensors would be a much better approach.

I agree, but even they are not infallible.

We don't need infallible, just a lot better than smartmeters.

There could be periods of up
to 8 hours or more, when you might be in bed.

Mine work fine with me in bed detecting that I am in bed.

Equally, you could be
lying injured or dying for 8 hours

Yes, but the smart meter can't work that out when you are in bed.

- motion sensors cannot tell the difference between the two states

But can do a lot better than a smart meter when you can't get out of bed.

and it would be entirely wrong to
rely on a 'usual pattern of movement' for either metering or motion
sensors.

Still a lot better than not monitoring at all and waiting for the
neighbours to complain about the smell from the corpse.

2987fr submitted this idea :
Mine work fine with me in bed detecting that I am in bed.

OK, fine - I didn't realise you had them/one watching your bed. It
would be a fair assumption that if it detected you in bed and still
moving occaisionaly - that you are fine and that if you needed help you
could make a phone call.

I have only installed one movement sensor and that to switch the light
on in the utility room / pantry. The reason - we usually go in and out
of there with both hands full, so it makes life easier if the light
comes on and switches off automatically when someone goes in or comes
out.

Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2019 18:18, David wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.

"Our novel technology assesses an individuals personal physical and
mental-health by monitoring their electricity usage at home. This is
achieved by processing data collected from smart meters, which captures
detailed habits of an individuals interactions with electrical devices.
The technology identifies any anomalies in a persons routine, which is
the result of a health-related condition. For example, an Alzheimers
patient leaving an oven on or person suffering with depression remaining
awake at night. This is achieved by employing advanced data analytics,
known as machine learning, to understand trends in electricity usage. The
system can identify when an individual gets up, goes to bed, eats, their
location within the home and a bad nights sleep. Essentially, the
technology creates a personalised profile of the users behaviour at home."

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.


I'm no fan of Smart meters but their potential use to monitor the
elderly / infirm etc seems a very good idea- if it is found to be
reliable.

As for using the same data to 'spy' on people, even for advertising, I'm
less paranoid than some. If EON / Southern Electric want to know that I
have a coffee mid morning, dinner around 6pm, the heating is set for xyz
etc ....., is it really that invasive? If a total stranger asked if I
enjoyed a mid morning coffee, I'd not worry about answering.


It's the thin end of the wedge. Facebook were like that at the beginning:
just a little targeted advertising. Now they can purportedly manipulate
elections.

At least you can choose not to have FB. Everyone has electricity meters and
we're being encouraged to get "smart" ones. Imagine getting access to that
data...

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 11:30:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


More fool you when say it keeps track of the barcodes of the packaging
you put in the bin, keeps track of what you have bought that way and
suggest that you might want some more of that when you go shopping
with you free to decide that you don¢t want any more of that etc.

When did he mention barcodes, you driveling senile ****?

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 10:57:27 +1100, 2987fr, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


Not just a challenge. We could never get my dad to wear one.
He seemed to see it as an admission that he was past it.

The very asshole who was responsible for creating an obnoxious senile pest
like you, senile Rot?

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 10:03:35 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


But it can be hard to get the ancients to use them.

Not true of a decent set of internal cameras tho, but
again, some don't like the idea of being watched all
the time, particularly in the bathroom and toilet which
is one area where they are needed more than most.

Movement detectors arent as bad in that regard.

We got a MUCH better indicator: the moment you shut your stupid gob and stop
trolling, we know you're done!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 12:21:24 +1100, 2987fr, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

I bet most would prefer NO response AT ALL once that happens to you, you
obnoxious senile pest! BG

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 19:39:00 +1100, 2987fr, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


Mine work fine with me in bed detecting that I am in bed.

LOL! Senile idiot! Let's hope they soon won't detect any movement from you
at all, senile pest!

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 19:33:55 +1100, 2987fr, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the stinking senile troll****

In auto-contradicting mode again, senile cretin? BG

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Accelerometers & gyroscopes would be used as it's more than just movement to detect a fall, they use an algorithm in order to work out what the data represents.

On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 00:30:47 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"michael adams" wrote in message
o.uk...

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 4 February 2019 19:54:30 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...

snip

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that
they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of data
all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

...

~ The first thing that happens when I interact with most companies (other
than
~ simply paying for goods at a till) is they go for a data grab, and it
normally
~ includes data irrelevant to the business being done. It has nothing to
do with
~ interesting lives or crazy people imagining they're the centre of
attention, it
~ has simply become a business norm these days. Data has commercial
~ value and companies are routinely overestimating the value of it &
grabbing
~ whatever they can.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Every time you make a payment
with a credit or debit card you're providing further information to the
card
company in addition to the masses of data they already hold on you. The
profile such data could generate is far more informative than anything
that
could be gleaned from the smart meter data which seems to be causing such
concern. So unless all the tin foil hat brigade also forgo the use of
credit cards I fail to see their point.

Which isn't to say that advertising targeted at broad groups, say certain
age
groups rather than at individuals as such, wouldn't be more effective. But
that's another issue.

Which isn't to say that the "internet of things" is necessarily a good
thing.
Basically ceding control of any aspect of your life to potential
incompetents
and/or the purveyors of bull**** unless absolutely necessary is a very bad
idea IMO

More fool you when say it keeps track of the barcodes of the packaging
you put in the bin, keeps track of what you have bought that way and
suggest that you might want some more of that when you go shopping
with you free to decide that you dont want any more of that etc.

One thing the police advise is not to just throw your old packaging in the bin recycling or not, as in most cases if you see an empty TV box ready for recycling, chances are that house has just bought a brand new TV.

On Monday, 4 February 2019 18:18:21 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-...h/application-
summaries/research-summaries/health-monitoring-using-smart-meters/

Also on the front page of the Daily Fail.


There was a full page ad in Metro today featuring this by the Smart Meter Campaign calling it "Good News".

Owain

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm
alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily
and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Accelerometers & gyroscopes would be used

Problem is getting the person to wear that all the
time. Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

they use an algorithm in order to work out what the data represents.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 00:30:47 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"michael adams" wrote in message
o.uk...

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 4 February 2019 19:54:30 UTC, michael adams wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...

snip

So spying on you and profiling you through the Smart Meter.

Thus fulfilling the abiding fantasy of the tin-foil-hat brigade - that
they lead such
interesting lives that Big Brother is itching to collect masses of
data
all about
them

Some hopes.


Which we were assured would never happen.

Next step targeted advertising.

Er, light bulbs, electrical appliances.

Whatever next ?



michael adams

...

~ The first thing that happens when I interact with most companies
(other
than
~ simply paying for goods at a till) is they go for a data grab, and it
normally
~ includes data irrelevant to the business being done. It has nothing
to
do with
~ interesting lives or crazy people imagining they're the centre of
attention, it
~ has simply become a business norm these days. Data has commercial
~ value and companies are routinely overestimating the value of it &
grabbing
~ whatever they can.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Every time you make a
payment
with a credit or debit card you're providing further information to the
card
company in addition to the masses of data they already hold on you. The
profile such data could generate is far more informative than anything
that
could be gleaned from the smart meter data which seems to be causing
such
concern. So unless all the tin foil hat brigade also forgo the use of
credit cards I fail to see their point.

Which isn't to say that advertising targeted at broad groups, say
certain
age
groups rather than at individuals as such, wouldn't be more effective.
But
that's another issue.

Which isn't to say that the "internet of things" is necessarily a good
thing.
Basically ceding control of any aspect of your life to potential
incompetents
and/or the purveyors of bull**** unless absolutely necessary is a very
bad
idea IMO

More fool you when say it keeps track of the barcodes of the packaging
you put in the bin, keeps track of what you have bought that way and
suggest that you might want some more of that when you go shopping
with you free to decide that you dont want any more of that etc.

One thing the police advise is not to just throw your old packaging in the
bin recycling or not, as in most cases if you see an empty TV box ready
for
recycling, chances are that house has just bought a brand new TV.

I was talking about food etc, not TVs.

On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:23:19 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm
alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to daily
and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Accelerometers & gyroscopes would be used

Problem is getting the person to wear that all the
time.

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch.
And you'd need them to in stall those device's in everyroom including the garden and any sheds or workshops, I think that is more difficult than aking them to wear something.



as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

and how would that work then ?
They moved down the stairs or moved into the bathroom or moved into the shed.
Doesn't tell you much.


they use an algorithm in order to work out what the data represents.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 18:23:19 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 6 February 2019 01:21:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
michael adams brought next idea :
In fact it sounds like a claim from a software provider touting for
business. In fact such technology which isn't particularly novel
in itself, might well prove useful in monitoring vulnerable
patients
who having given their consent to this surveillance are otherwise
being left their own devices.

Or an individual chasing a backer. More sensible would be an 'I'm
alive'
button to push once per day, or a text message to be replied to
daily
and
much more reliable. Why look for a more complex solution

Because I would prefer a quicker response if I manage to fall
and can't get up due to a broken hip etc or a diabetic coma.

which simply would not be nearly so reliable as an indicator?

Yes, movement sensors make a lot more sense,
particularly if you have those already for the lights.

Accelerometers & gyroscopes would be used

Problem is getting the person to wear that all the
time.

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch.

You dont need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

And you'd need them to in stall those device's in everyroom
including the garden and any sheds or workshops, I think
that is more difficult than aking them to wear something.

The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.
And it isnt viable to have someone ring them when its
clear that they arent currently wearing it either because
they can just ignore the phone call.

as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

and how would that work then ?

The system checks that it can see them moving around,
more than one sensor is activated over time.

They moved down the stairs or moved into the bathroom or moved into the
shed.
Doesn't tell you much.

Does tell you that they are moving around.

they use an algorithm in order to work out what the data represents.

On Thursday, 7 February 2019 17:22:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch..

You dont need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

A PIR can't detect one indivual from another, so would only be of use for single person use bathrooms and all it could detect is whether or not someone was in there nothing else of much use.
Has the person fainted or just having a long relaxing bath or are they giving birth to a catherdral (a big crap).
I know some that sepnd 10mins and even take a book in to have a crap.



The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.

How to yuo ensure peolpe wear pace makers or use walking frames ?
How to yuo ensure people install PIRs all over their house and in teh garden and street and everywhere they go .
How to you ebsure they install PIRs in friends and family houses and venues such as sports arenas and theatres ? and of course public toilets.

have you ever installed a PIR in a public toilet ?





as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

and how would that work then ?

The system checks that it can see them moving around,
more than one sensor is activated over time.

So if they are having a bath or a nap on the sofa, or watching TV or reading a book, or fallen asleep while reading one of your posts ?



They moved down the stairs or moved into the bathroom or moved into the
shed.
Doesn't tell you much.

Does tell you that they are moving around.

Which doesn't mean a lot, as people sleep and stand or sit still even while eating most are stationary to a PIR.

We have reasearch projects dealing with this sort of thing and attached things can give early warning of blood pressure and heart condition rathe rthan just a PIRs 'digital' state which is pretty useless.

whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 7 February 2019 17:22:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch.

You don't need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

A PIR can't detect one indivual from another, so would only be of use for
single person use bathrooms and all it could detect is whether or not
someone was in there nothing else of much use. Has the person fainted or
just having a long relaxing bath or are they giving birth to a catherdral
(a big crap). I know some that sepnd 10mins and even take a book in to
have a crap.



The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.

How to yuo ensure peolpe wear pace makers

snip

Usually by putting them under the skin and sewing up the wound.







--

Roger Hayter

On Friday, 8 February 2019 12:37:44 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 7 February 2019 17:22:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch.

You don't need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

A PIR can't detect one indivual from another, so would only be of use for
single person use bathrooms and all it could detect is whether or not
someone was in there nothing else of much use. Has the person fainted or
just having a long relaxing bath or are they giving birth to a catherdral
(a big crap). I know some that sepnd 10mins and even take a book in to
have a crap.



The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.

How to yuo ensure peolpe wear pace makers

snip

Usually by putting them under the skin and sewing up the wound.

Don't you have to agree to have one fitted and agree not to try to rip it out.

No ones purt a pace maker in me, or placed PIRs all around and in my house.

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 12:29, Steve Walker
wrote:

[...]
As an example of the risks: apparently, two nights ago, a car with four
men in it drove slowly along our road, with no lights on, in the early
hours of the morning. They were seen and the registration reported to
the police.

NhW and a vigilant community are often so under-rated.

Far better for criminals if they can remotely identify when a house is
likely to be unoccupied and look it over with Streetview.

Round here, throughout last summer they often used a drone for a recce
of the rear of the property, the choicest portable items - especially
'Apple', and to establish best entry points, the occupants' habits, and
even occupancy; and then burgled having ascertained the high likelihood
of no-one being at home, timed right down to a 10 to 15 minute slot.

Apparently drone-blockers are unfeasible, yet even if they were, then
unlawful or illegal.

The recent snowfall was an eye-opener: 'alien' footprints around the
cars during the small hours, then unidentifiables picked up by cctv.

--
paul (C) © 2019 is mine

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 7 February 2019 17:22:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and
PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a
watch.

You dont need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

A PIR can't detect one indivual from another,
so would only be of use for single person use

Sure, but when there is more than one person there,
you dont need any system for detecting when
someone needs help, the other people can do that
when the individual can't to that for themselves.

bathrooms and all it could detect is whether or not
someone was in there nothing else of much use.

It can certainly detect that the individual stays there forever
and that is likely a good indication that they need help.

Has the person fainted or just having a long relaxing bath

If they stay there for days its likely that they can't get out of it.

or are they giving birth to a catherdral (a big crap).

Ditto.

I know some that sepnd 10mins and even take a book in to have a crap.

But even you dont stay on the crapper for days.

The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.

How to yuo ensure peolpe wear pace makers

You surgically implant them.

or use walking frames ?

They find that they can't move around without them.

as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

and how would that work then ?

The system checks that it can see them moving around,
more than one sensor is activated over time.

So if they are having a bath or a nap on the sofa, or watching TV or
reading a book, or fallen asleep while reading one of your posts ?

Even you dont do that for days at time, even when in a drunken stupor.

They moved down the stairs or moved into the bathroom or moved into the
shed.
Doesn't tell you much.

Does tell you that they are moving around.

Which doesn't mean a lot, as people sleep and stand or
sit still even while eating most are stationary to a PIR.

But dont stay in the same place for days.

We have reasearch projects dealing with this sort
of thing and attached things can give early
warning of blood pressure and heart condition

Problem is getting the individual to wear it all the time.

On Friday, 8 February 2019 11:38:41 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 February 2019 17:22:37 UTC, 2987fr wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

You;d have to leave that up to them or in some cases perhaps use a tag.

Even in the bath or shower, because that is
in fact where they are much more likely to fall.

I think it would be more difficult to get them to install cameras and PIR
system in their bathroom than getting them to wear a braclet or a watch.

You dont need cameras in the bathroom, just the PIR.

A PIR can't detect one indivual from another, so would only be of use for single person use bathrooms and all it could detect is whether or not someone was in there nothing else of much use.
Has the person fainted or just having a long relaxing bath or are they giving birth to a catherdral (a big crap).
I know some that sepnd 10mins and even take a book in to have a crap.



The problem is ensuring that they do actually wear it.

How to yuo ensure peolpe wear pace makers or use walking frames ?
How to yuo ensure people install PIRs all over their house and in teh garden and street and everywhere they go .
How to you ebsure they install PIRs in friends and family houses and venues such as sports arenas and theatres ? and of course public toilets.

have you ever installed a PIR in a public toilet ?





as it's more than just movement to detect a fall,

I wasnt taking about using movement to detect a fall,
using movement to detect that they havent had a fall.

and how would that work then ?

The system checks that it can see them moving around,
more than one sensor is activated over time.

So if they are having a bath or a nap on the sofa, or watching TV or reading a book, or fallen asleep while reading one of your posts ?



They moved down the stairs or moved into the bathroom or moved into the
shed.
Doesn't tell you much.

Does tell you that they are moving around.

Which doesn't mean a lot, as people sleep and stand or sit still even while eating most are stationary to a PIR.

We have reasearch projects dealing with this sort of thing and attached things can give early warning of blood pressure and heart condition rathe rthan just a PIRs 'digital' state which is pretty useless.

My neighbours have installed a webcamera in their parents house.