On Saturday, 14 July 2018 14:46:06 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On Saturday, 14 July 2018 14:46:06 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 14/07/2018 15:24, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.
The keyless systems, ie not the ones where you have to press the button,
but the ones that work on proximity have the car pinging and seeing if a
matching fob is nearby. Normally it is not, so the crims. have two
interlinked devices, the guy walks down the road and then when he finds
a car he knows has one of these opening systems, he records its pinging
and sends it to the person going down the row of houses, when the person
gets a ping back from a fob in a house, he then records this and sends
it to the other person who proceeds to get into the car.

GMP have been warning people about a spate of thefts from (not of) cars
with keyless entry in the local area in the last few days.

I think nowadays even someÂ* fobs where you have to action pressing a
button the two can communicate first to see if they are a match.The idea
of the tin foil is to make a faraday cage, the same advice has been
given out for contactless payment cards for similar reasons of course
I personally think something a bit more substantial than foil is a good
idea though. Say a small tin box.
The thing that annoys me with both contactless cards and car opening
systems is that so little securityÂ* is built in for these systems. One
might expect that some kind of secondary system might be in place that
somehow stops people just recording signals and repeating them when you
consider the cost of a car and the need for security for your bank
account. I'm not sure I'd ever be comfortable using a phone as a payment
card.

The car fobs that you press a button to operate use a rolling code
system to prevent the recording of a code as it is used and subsequent
playback.

I think that vulnerabilities in the rolling code system have been found
though.

SteveW

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:07:25 +0100, NY wrote:

I can understand you wanting the car to start as soon as you press the
button on the dashboard, but not that one would want the car to unlock
itself as soon as you get within range. Is it something that is
user-configurable - whether the doors unlock automatically or whether
you still need to press a unlock button as with a normal central-locking
key.

My car unlocks when you touch the inner part of a door handle, as long as
the key is within a metre of the car.

The engine won't start unless the key is physically inside the car.

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My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
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Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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On 14/07/2018 21:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/07/18 20:09, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/07/18 15:24, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.
The keyless systems, ie not the ones where you have to press the
button, but the ones that work on proximity have the car pinging and
seeing if a matching fob is nearby. Normally it is not, so the crims.
have two interlinked devices, the guy walks down the road and then
when he finds a car he knows has one of these opening systems, he
records its pinging and sends it to the person going down the row of
houses, when the person gets a ping back from a fob in a house, he
then records this and sends it to the other person who proceeds to
get into the car.

The thing is, there is no non-action proximity device that you could
not insert a dumb relay between the key and the car.

Even if you have a normal challenge-response crypto system between Car
and Key, if you stick a relay device with two ends: A and B:


C=A----------------B=K

If A-B faithfully relay a copy of the signals (NFC, radio, it doesn't
matter) - there is no way C doesn't know it's not next to K


One time key solves that.

Essentially there is a shared secret that means the codes are not reusable.

Example. You have 16K of 256 bit identical code pairs in the transmitter
and receiver.

Every time a code is transitted, the key responds with the pair. And
increments both a master counter and puts its value inÂ* a location
associated with the code pair. This means the code pair is now marked as
having been used.

Next time a new pair is used. The old pair no longer works. After 16k
door open/engine starts you reuse the codes.

The key (sic!) to a technique like this is that to fully replicate the
secrets you need to listen to all 16K pair exchanges. And the key is
that the secret is immensely large and random.

AS long as each fob and reciever are absolutely uniquely programmed as a
matched pair, it works.

Its not impossible to crack, but its hugely non-trivial

That works for fobs where you press a button to disarm and unlock and is
indeed the sort of system that is used; but with keyless entry systems
they simply relay the communication between the car and the key over
more than its usual range, so they are using the real fob at the time
that they break in and need no knowledge of the codes at all. Neither
the car nor the fob have any way of knowing that they are not in close
proximity.

SteveW

On 14/07/2018 20:02, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) was thinking very hard :
Keyless entry - such an essential thing to have ;-) - transmits all the
time. When the transmitter is in range the car opens. I assume these code
readers are somewhat more sensitive than the receiver in the car.

If you are suggesting that the key transmits all the time, think about
it and how much battery that might need. They transmit, or more
correctly respond only when intergated by the car.

The car transmits all the time and the key responds when it receives a
request from the car, so little power drain.

Normally the fob muust be pretty close to the car and it might well be
possible to power it from the signal it receives.

SteveW

On 14/07/2018 16:10, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright has brought this to us :
That won't stop the RF.

It will stop the majority, more than enough to defeat a thief. Try it
with your car key.

A flat plate on one site of the tx will not prevent transmission.

Bill

On 14/07/2018 19:34, dennis@home wrote:

Just put them in a biscuit tin.



With conductive bonding all the way round the lid.
Any slit or slot or other discontinuity will let RF through. I have a
van with no rear windows and a metal bulkhead and RF gets into the back
with no trouble.

Bill

On 14/07/2018 16:38, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits,

Can't do. It would run the battery down. They must receive a signal from
the car.

Bill

On 14/07/2018 17:48, Andy Burns wrote:
NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
Keyless entry constantly transmits

Do they constantly transmit?

Maybe the car constantly transmits and key constantly listens and
responds when they 'hear' the car, either way thieves have worked out
ways and means ... hence the recommendations for a biscuit tin in the
hallway to put keys into.

I just tested this. Put my phone in a biscuit tin and rung it up. It
worked. Sounded funny though!

Bill

Steve Walker wrote:

The car fobs that you press a button to operate use a rolling code
system to prevent the recording of a code as it is used and subsequent
playback.

I think that vulnerabilities in the rolling code system have been found
though.

Place a jammer near the car, so car doesn't receive properly, use a
device to capture code n from the remote, user notices car doesn't open,
presses button again, device captures code n+1, disable the jammer, play
back code n, car opens, thief keeps code n+1 for later use ...

car and remote allow a 'window' of several rolling codes, so in practice
thief can capture n+2, n+3 etc codes ...

Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to send
the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a thief
from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely scanned
and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards in my
wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of metal foil.

Makes more sense to use apple pay or google/android pay instead.
Those can't be read by anyone.

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:12:58 AM UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/07/2018 17:48, Andy Burns wrote:
NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
Keyless entry constantly transmits

Do they constantly transmit?

Maybe the car constantly transmits and key constantly listens and
responds when they 'hear' the car, either way thieves have worked out
ways and means ... hence the recommendations for a biscuit tin in the
hallway to put keys into.

I just tested this. Put my phone in a biscuit tin and rung it up. It
worked. Sounded funny though!

Bill

I wrapped a phone in aluminium foil and called it. It did not ring. Took it out and tested again and it did.

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 7:29:25 AM UTC+1, misterroy wrote:
On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:12:58 AM UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/07/2018 17:48, Andy Burns wrote:
NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
Keyless entry constantly transmits

Do they constantly transmit?

Maybe the car constantly transmits and key constantly listens and
responds when they 'hear' the car, either way thieves have worked out
ways and means ... hence the recommendations for a biscuit tin in the
hallway to put keys into.

I just tested this. Put my phone in a biscuit tin and rung it up. It
worked. Sounded funny though!

Bill

I wrapped a phone in aluminium foil and called it. It did not ring. Took it out and tested again and it did.

A friend came unstuck when he drove his wife to work and then stopped at a beach on the way home. She had the electronic key in her handbag. He could not start the car again and had to make his way to her work in slippers and a dressing gown.

Brian Gaff wrote

Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.

Just because some fool cop claims something...

If it was that easy, we wouldnt see crims breaking into houses to get the
car keys.

The keyless systems, ie not the ones where you have to press the button,
but the ones that work on proximity have the car pinging and seeing if a
matching fob is nearby. Normally it is not, so the crims. have two
interlinked devices, the guy walks down the road and then when he finds a
car he knows has one of these opening systems, he records its pinging and
sends it to the person going down the row of houses, when the person gets
a ping back from a fob in a house, he then records this and sends it to
the other person who proceeds to get into the car.

Doesnt work like that with cars.

I think nowadays even some fobs where you have to action pressing a
button the two can communicate first to see if they are a match.

That mangles the real story too.

The idea of the tin foil is to make a faraday cage, the same advice has
been given out for contactless payment cards for similar reasons of course

And yet we dont actually see those with contactless cards get looted.

Its just another mindlessly silly urban myth.

I personally think something a bit more substantial than foil is a good
idea though. Say a small tin box.

The thing that annoys me with both contactless cards and car opening
systems is that so little security is built in for these systems.

Thats bull**** with rolling code systems and android/google pay and apple
pay.

One might expect that some kind of secondary system might be in place that
somehow stops people just recording signals and repeating them when you
consider the cost of a car and the need for security for your bank
account.

There is, rolling code systems.

I'm not sure I'd ever be comfortable using a phone as a payment card.

They are in fact vastly more secure because they use a unique token
for every transaction so the token is useless after its been used.

And you can't just pretend to be a merchant terminal
either, because the owner of the phone has to authorise
each transaction with their fingerprint etc.

The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
It happens that Brian Gaff formulated :
I personally think something a bit more substantial than foil is a good
idea though. Say a small tin box.

True, but that would be a bit unwieldy for carrying round. Cooking foil
works well enough, I have tried it.

The thing that annoys me with both contactless cards and car opening
systems is that so little security is built in for these systems. One
might expect that some kind of secondary system might be in place that
somehow stops people just recording signals and repeating them when you
consider the cost of a car and the need for security for your bank
account. I'm not sure I'd ever be comfortable using a phone as a payment
card.

The only time my cards are exposed to RF skimming, is when they are out of
my wallet, when I pay for something. At such times, I make sure there is
no one near enough to skim my card whilst it is unprotected.

If you are that paranoid, you should be using apple pay or google/android
pay.

Then you wouldn't have to do anything.

Bill Wright explained on 15/07/2018 :
A flat plate on one site of the tx will not prevent transmission.

I wasn't suggesting it would. My wallet is a back pocket folder, the
height of notes, but when the wallet is folded the notes are folded, as
is the foil. The foil is the full size of my wallet when open and
inserted in the outer note compartment.

Folded and in my pocket, my cards are tightly sandwiched on both sides
by foil. Does that explain it better?

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

If the car has keyless entry, and you leave the key in the hallway, it's
probably out of range as far as the car is concerned, but the crooks can
put a transceiver midway between the car and house and gain entry then
start the car, sort out another key at their leisure ...

Not with a rolling code system they can't.

on 15/07/2018, Bill Wright supposed :
With conductive bonding all the way round the lid.
Any slit or slot or other discontinuity will let RF through. I have a van
with no rear windows and a metal bulkhead and RF gets into the back with no
trouble.

But both the incoming RF and the outgoing RF response will be greatly
diminished. Here we are dealing with already very weak signals. In the
push button car remotes, with some cars you need to be very close to
the car, to get the car to respond. Range with current car is
exceptional, I can manage 100yds in good conditions.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 15:04 14 Jul 2018, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...-keys-tin-foil
-stolen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief
to send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and
drive it away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday
screen, prevents a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my
cards in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a
sheet of metal foil.

In reality, how easy is it for a thief to use RF to read your credit
card? Surely they need to get very close.

Indeed. Its mindless paranoia.

Bill Wright wrote :
I just tested this. Put my phone in a biscuit tin and rung it up. It worked.
Sounded funny though!

In the same test with both a mobile and a wireless landline phone, both
failed to ring. A similar test with cooking foil, produced the same
result. My wireless landline's base is located at a high position in
the house, so as to provide coverage right out to the back of the
garden, which it does - except it fails in the garage and fails in the
caravan.

The caravan has a metal roof, metal sides, composite front and rear
panels. My garage has a metal roof.

Your TV antenna coax is only screened by a wire mesh in the older
coaxes. Modern, better ones include both the mesh and a copper foil.

Try wrapping your ignition key in cooking foil, inserting it in the
ignition lock and starting the car.. Tell me whether it starts?

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.

Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's cloning
device. I think also most keys transmit a unique code (different every
time the car challenges the key) to turn off the immobiliser - so even if
the key's serrations or the electronic unlock/start code work, there is a
second line of defence that will not admit fuel to the engine. Evidently
whatever technology car thieves use can also cope with the unique rolling
immobiliser code.

That last isnt possible.

Rod Speed submitted this idea :
In reality, how easy is it for a thief to use RF to read your credit
card? Surely they need to get very close.

Indeed. Its mindless paranoia.

Sometimes we agree lol

I would suggest under ideal conditions it is possible, without the
owner knowing. You only need to makes the conditions less than ideal,
to make it not work - a cooking foil liner to your wallet more than
satisfies that.

alan_m brought next idea :
They read it when you use it. They only have to next to you in the queue when
you use it at the tills in a shop.

So look around you before opening your wallet, I do..

Jack James wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the
crooks can put a transceiver midway between the car and house and gain
entry then start the car, sort out another key at their leisure ...

Not with a rolling code system they can't.

The transceiver isn't emulating a key, it is boosting the key's own
signal to fool the car into thinking the key is closer than it is, so
yes they can.

Maybe the crimmos down under haven't figured it out yet ...

After serious thinking Rod Speed wrote :
Just because some fool cop claims something...

If it was that easy, we wouldnt see crims breaking into houses to get the
car keys.

Some need to break in, those with a bit more technical expertise, don't
need to. There are numerous on line videos demonstrating car theft
without direct access to the key.

On 15/07/2018 07:22, Rod Speed wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a
thief from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.


Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has been
no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is between
them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events
to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to
get around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you
really wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you
measure it.

On 15/07/18 09:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
alan_m brought next idea :
They read it when you use it. They only have to next to you in the
queue when you use it at the tills in a shop.

So look around you before opening your wallet, I do..

And the scanner has to be very close.
http://nearfieldcommunication.org/technology.html

On 15/07/2018 01:11, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:07:25 +0100, NY wrote:

I can understand you wanting the car to start as soon as you press the
button on the dashboard, but not that one would want the car to unlock
itself as soon as you get within range. Is it something that is
user-configurable - whether the doors unlock automatically or whether
you still need to press a unlock button as with a normal central-locking
key.

My car unlocks when you touch the inner part of a door handle, as long as
the key is within a metre of the car.

The engine won't start unless the key is physically inside the car.


I bet it will start if you hold it against the outside of a window.

dennis@home pretended :
You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events to
make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to get
around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you really
wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you measure it.

The extenders have to use store and forward, both cannot transmit at
the same time or the extender's reception would be swamped.

Andy Burns Wrote in message:
Jack James wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the
crooks can put a transceiver midway between the car and house and gain
entry then start the car, sort out another key at their leisure ...

Not with a rolling code system they can't.

The transceiver isn't emulating a key, it is boosting the key's own
signal to fool the car into thinking the key is closer than it is, so
yes they can.

Maybe the crimmos down under haven't figured it out yet ...


Corrugated tin shed/house Faraday cages!
damn they think of everything!
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:57:35 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:


That last isnt possible.

Making you shut your stupid gob for a while? Indeed!

--
dennis@home to know-it-all Rot Speed:
"You really should stop commenting on things you know nothing about."
Message-ID:

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 14/07/18 15:24, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.
The keyless systems, ie not the ones where you have to press the button,
but the ones that work on proximity have the car pinging and seeing if a
matching fob is nearby. Normally it is not, so the crims. have two
interlinked devices, the guy walks down the road and then when he finds a
car he knows has one of these opening systems, he records its pinging and
sends it to the person going down the row of houses, when the person gets
a ping back from a fob in a house, he then records this and sends it to
the other person who proceeds to get into the car.

The thing is, there is no non-action proximity device that you could not
insert a dumb relay between the key and the car.

Even if you have a normal challenge-response crypto system between Car and
Key, if you stick a relay device with two ends: A and B:


C=A----------------B=K

If A-B faithfully relay a copy of the signals (NFC, radio, it doesn't
matter) - there is no way C doesn't know it's not next to K

They could have the most complex chat possible and it would make no
difference.

Yes there is. With a rolling code system, whatever the thief has captured
is no use later.


What they need is something like an on-off switch on the key - like you
have to open it to activate and when closed (and it beeps once the car is
locked until it is closed) it does nothing.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:52:03 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:


You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief
to send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and
drive it away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday
screen, prevents a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my
cards in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a
sheet of metal foil.

In reality, how easy is it for a thief to use RF to read your credit
card? Surely they need to get very close.

Indeed. Its mindless paranoia.

Not for the one to whom it happened, you endlessly driveling abnormal
cretin!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

Jack James wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

They could have the most complex chat possible and it would make no
difference.

Yes there is. With a rolling code system, whatever the thief has captured
is no use later.

They don't capture it, they "repeat" it live to the car ... in theory
they could use the spare key at your house to open your car parked at
the airport ...

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:35:19 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:


The only time my cards are exposed to RF skimming, is when they are out of
my wallet, when I pay for something. At such times, I make sure there is
no one near enough to skim my card whilst it is unprotected.

If you are that paranoid, you should be using apple pay or google/android
pay.

Then you wouldn't have to do anything.

Listen, senile oaf, he does it the way he likes to do it. He doesn't need
the self-opinionated advice of a mentally troubled, self-opinionated asshole
like you!

--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rot Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

The car fobs that you press a button to operate use a rolling code
system to prevent the recording of a code as it is used and subsequent
playback.

I think that vulnerabilities in the rolling code system have been found
though.

Place a jammer near the car, so car doesn't receive properly, use a
device to capture code n from the remote, user notices car doesn't open,
presses button again, device captures code n+1, disable the jammer, play
back code n, car opens, thief keeps code n+1 for later use ...

But a lot more hassle than picking up a keyless entry code. Needs the key
holder to actually operate the system, before the code can be captured.

car and remote allow a 'window' of several rolling codes, so in practice
thief can capture n+2, n+3 etc codes ...

And getting into the car isn't going to help much anyway. You could do
that by smashing a window. You'd still need the correct key with security
chip to actually start the car.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:35:04 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.

Just because some fool cop claims something...

Mr Know-it-all knows it all better, AGAIN! ****ing HILARIOUS! LOL

--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 09:08:57 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

Maybe the crimmos down under haven't figured it out yet ...

I have watch some of those Police down under TV shows and I love the
way they have so many / alternative words that end in 'o'.

The most blatant being 'Bottle-o' ... and 'rego', 'servo' and 'ambo'
plus the others that don't but are possibly unique to Auz like
'carby', 'bingle' 'troppo' and 'ute'.

The funny thing is hearing their Cops use such terms. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking Rod Speed wrote :
Just because some fool cop claims something...

If it was that easy, we wouldn‘t see crims breaking into houses to get the
car keys.

Some need to break in, those with a bit more technical expertise, don't
need to. There are numerous on line videos demonstrating car theft
without direct access to the key.

My neighbours car was stolen without the keyless 'key'. Which it seems was
kept fairly close to the front door.

--
*If all is not lost, where the hell is it?

Dave Plowman London SW
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