On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 19:54:52 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

But not necessarily stopping the end result.

Everyone I know who has died of terminal cancer, and its
quite a few now, has had the chemo doing something and
they died of it anyway.

You got secondarys ? No one survives that.

Mr Know-it-all knows it all, AGAIN! VBG

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

On 15/07/2018 09:13, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 23:55, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:57, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or
prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets
current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with
an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd
like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't
afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are
pretty pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers
plug directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after
installing mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was
approximately 1/3 of the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a
lot further upward than downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the
middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

About 1993.

When I bought the house, it needed a full re-wire. My father was on
some of the British Standards committees (BS1363 and others) and spoke
to a fellow committee member from Crabtree and I got the CU, busbars,
isolator switch, RCD and MCBs as free samples!

I know the ones. The RCBOs for those units were double pole width

https://willrose-electrical.co.uk/pr...0-older-style/

Those are no use. Even with removing the existing RCD, I'd only have
enough spare ways to change 4 single width MCBs to double width RCBOs
and I'd need to do at least 6 and preferably 9.

However there are now these

https://www.electrium.co.uk/media/20...%20 (Web).pdf

Ah. Now they do look like they may fit - I've not seen those before. For
years they have been much larger ones, with a very assymetrical design
that definitely won't fit my box.

Thanks for that.

SteveW

On 15/07/2018 17:39, Steve Walker wrote:
On 15/07/2018 09:13, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 23:55, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:57, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or
prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets
current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with
an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd
like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't
afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are
pretty pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers
plug directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after
installing mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was
approximately 1/3 of the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a
lot further upward than downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in
the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

About 1993.

When I bought the house, it needed a full re-wire. My father was on
some of the British Standards committees (BS1363 and others) and
spoke to a fellow committee member from Crabtree and I got the CU,
busbars, isolator switch, RCD and MCBs as free samples!

I know the ones. The RCBOs for those units were double pole width

https://willrose-electrical.co.uk/pr...0-older-style/


Those are no use. Even with removing the existing RCD, I'd only have
enough spare ways to change 4 single width MCBs to double width RCBOs
and I'd need to do at least 6 and preferably 9.

However there are now these

https://www.electrium.co.uk/media/20...%20 (Web).pdf


Ah. Now they do look like they may fit - I've not seen those before. For
years they have been much larger ones, with a very assymetrical design
that definitely won't fit my box.

Thanks for that.



That just leaves the problem of your fixed plug in bus bar if you wanted
all RCBOs.




--
Adam

On 15/07/2018 18:37, ARW wrote:
On 15/07/2018 17:39, Steve Walker wrote:
On 15/07/2018 09:13, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 23:55, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:57, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or
prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets
current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up
with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd
like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters
that leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't
afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for
splitting between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are
pretty pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers
plug directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after
installing mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was
approximately 1/3 of the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a
lot further upward than downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in
the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

About 1993.

When I bought the house, it needed a full re-wire. My father was on
some of the British Standards committees (BS1363 and others) and
spoke to a fellow committee member from Crabtree and I got the CU,
busbars, isolator switch, RCD and MCBs as free samples!

I know the ones. The RCBOs for those units were double pole width

https://willrose-electrical.co.uk/pr...0-older-style/



Those are no use. Even with removing the existing RCD, I'd only have
enough spare ways to change 4 single width MCBs to double width RCBOs
and I'd need to do at least 6 and preferably 9.

However there are now these

https://www.electrium.co.uk/media/20...%20 (Web).pdf



Ah. Now they do look like they may fit - I've not seen those before.
For years they have been much larger ones, with a very assymetrical
design that definitely won't fit my box.

Thanks for that.



That just leaves the problem of your fixed plug in bus bar if you wanted
all RCBOs.

I am pretty sure the right one is still available and easily changed.

SteveW

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:16:43 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.

Exactly why I went for split load.

But the point I was making was that if the cause of a whole house RCD
constantly tripping is electronics, it would happen here too. As here they
are all on one RCD.

RCBO = way to go.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:19:13 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
**** The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like,
but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are pretty
pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers plug
directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after installing
mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was approximately 1/3 of
the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a lot further upward than
downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.

ISTR that Scott had a Starbreaker RCBO set up.

Well remembered! Scott

On 16/07/2018 11:59, Scott wrote:


RCBO = way to go.


When I swapped the fuse box for a CU at the house of a poster to this
newsgroup we did discuss all RCBOs.

Basically the fuse box had 6 circuits.

ISTR

Oven
Hob
Shower
Lights
Sockets
Kitchen sockets

I was able to split these circuits into the following circuits.

Oven
Hob
Shower
Lights
Sockets
Kitchen sockets
Alarm
Central heating
Garage (should have had 20A protection)
Smokes (new circuit)
Conservatory (should have had 20A protection)
UFH in en suite (possibly could have gone on the socket circuit)
Immersion (should have had it's own circuit)
UFH in kitchen and mixer shower plus 1 double socket in kitchen (should
have had a 20A supply)
Plus something I forgot as we used 15 ways of a 16 way CU.

In the end we decided on a split load CU with RCBOs for some circuits.

Basically the cooker, hob, shower, immersion, alarm, smokes, UFH
ensuite, UFH kitchen are on the split load RCDs and the other circuits
got RCBO protection.

I think we got a good balance for a good price.

Now when RCBOs are only £10...............



--
Adam

On 16/07/18 11:59, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:16:43 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.

Exactly why I went for split load.

But the point I was making was that if the cause of a whole house RCD
constantly tripping is electronics, it would happen here too. As here they
are all on one RCD.

RCBO = way to go.


I agree - not a big cost load to a new or rewiring job given labour.
Nice and safe and nice and selective about faults.

In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 13/07/2018 16:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Quite. So unless you're running some sort of computer farm from your
house, a single RCD will only do 'nuisance trips' when there is a
fault or faults.

That is probably over optimistic in most cases. When you add leakage
from all the circuits, allow for the range of tripping thresholds of the
RCD and then allow for transient disturbances, it would have to be a
pretty small installation to not suffer the occasional trip with just a
single RCD.

From electronic equipment?

All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.


Dunno John if there s a case to heating element leak the RCD shows that
up quite well else you wouldn't know its there till it burns out..
--
Tony Sayer

On 16/07/2018 23:07, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 13/07/2018 16:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.

I have one for most of the circuits and a second for the gas boiler and
the electric hob/oven. The hob tripped it when one of the elements burnt
out. I don't feel that was particularly useful, but there you are.

Dunno John if there s a case to heating element leak the RCD shows that
up quite well else you wouldn't know its there till it burns out..

--
Max Demian

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.


Dunno John if there s a case to heating element leak the RCD shows that
up quite well else you wouldn't know its there till it burns out..

But that's also useful heat. ;-)

This sort of mineral insulated element can 'leak' for a very long time
before failing.

--
*Is there another word for synonym?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/07/2018 09:02, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I would suggest the vast majority (99%) of installations are at least
post 1985.

Except Buck Palace which still has some rubber insulated wiring !

On 16/07/2018 23:07, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 13/07/2018 16:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Quite. So unless you're running some sort of computer farm from your
house, a single RCD will only do 'nuisance trips' when there is a
fault or faults.

That is probably over optimistic in most cases. When you add leakage
from all the circuits, allow for the range of tripping thresholds of the
RCD and then allow for transient disturbances, it would have to be a
pretty small installation to not suffer the occasional trip with just a
single RCD.

From electronic equipment?

All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.


Dunno John if there s a case to heating element leak the RCD shows that
up quite well else you wouldn't know its there till it burns out..

The purpose of the RCD is to prevent electrocution - its not really
there as a "replace me soon" flag ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/07/2018 14:07, Andrew wrote:
On 13/07/2018 09:02, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I would suggest the vast majority (99%) of installations are at least
post 1985.

Except Buck Palace which still has some rubber insulated wiring !

Missed Harry's post.

We took our rubber wiring out of circuit in 2014. Maybe we're one of the
1% too...

Andy

In article , dennis@home
scribeth thus
On 15/07/2018 00:10, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 19:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.

Sorry to hear that!

Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.

Well let's hope they carry on being wrong.

Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.





I'm not finding it too bad ATM.
Its a pain being connected to a drip all day and then having to take a
pump full of toxins home to continue for another two days. But I only
had 14 of those and I am only on cetribumax (sp?) ATM.

I think the side effects I have aren't particularly bad, mainly weight
control, and my nails keep delaminating which can make handling small
stuff painful and difficult.

The tumour has shrunk a lot but they can't remove it surgically so its
chemo followed by more chemo.


Sorry to hear that:=(

Ex missus developed breast cancer just after we divorced and it went
from bad to much much worse, chemo the works and then offered a
clinical trail mucho experiments later - and shes now reckoned to be
fine and she says so herself.!

Mind you this was in France and at one of the best treatment centres in
the country!..


--
Tony Sayer

On 25/07/2018 15:59, tony sayer wrote:
In article , dennis@home
scribeth thus
On 15/07/2018 00:10, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 19:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.

Sorry to hear that!

Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.

Well let's hope they carry on being wrong.

Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.





I'm not finding it too bad ATM.
Its a pain being connected to a drip all day and then having to take a
pump full of toxins home to continue for another two days. But I only
had 14 of those and I am only on cetribumax (sp?) ATM.

I think the side effects I have aren't particularly bad, mainly weight
control, and my nails keep delaminating which can make handling small
stuff painful and difficult.

The tumour has shrunk a lot but they can't remove it surgically so its
chemo followed by more chemo.


Sorry to hear that:=(

Ex missus developed breast cancer just after we divorced and it went
from bad to much much worse, chemo the works and then offered a
clinical trail mucho experiments later - and shes now reckoned to be
fine and she says so herself.!

Mind you this was in France and at one of the best treatment centres in
the country!..



My elder brother also has cancer and he is on some experimental pills.
They are licensed for some types of cancer but not the one he has and
chemo was having little effect on the cancer and a lot on him.

Chemo doesn't have many bad side effects on me, just irritating things
like the nails breaking if you look at them and little cracks in the
skin on the fingers and toes, going bald (but its growing back).

Cetuxemab rash is the worst, little spots everywhere and having to take
Oxytetracycline a lot of the time. You can't have milk for two hours
before and after taking it so I am getting used to tea with lemon.

But who cares? I'm still going.