On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the tests.

--
Adam

On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection every 5
years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even every 10 years as
"recommended", I doubt they even get one every time they change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has actually
had a 10 year test done at ten years.

I have seen them tested when sold, sometimes even on 3 or 4 year old
properties.

My local council certainly do not test their properties every 10 years.
The gf lives in a council house and I first shagged her on 10th June
2006. Her electrics have never had an inspection in the time we have
been together.


--
Adam

On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.


NT

On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.

any test I would have thought, including a visual inspection. Since just
taking sockets / switches off the wall to look behind them is a risk to
the insulation.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.


I'd have thought it tricky to do an EICR if removing an accessory (eg a
light switch) risks the insulation falling off the cable.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:26:27 +0100, Scott
wrote:

snip

When I had a fault it was the washing machine to blame. Since the
whole flat tripped out at the start of the spin cycle, it was an easy
diagnosis.

Thinking back, that was about the only thing that has tripped the RCD,
the washing machine.

Before I replaced the motor (as it didn't trip when that was
disconnected) I just blew it out (of carbon) with the airline and it
was fine after that. ;-)

I've often got *loads* of electronic kit running here and none of it
has ever tripped the RCD.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

My electrician was
astonished at first but when the cost was less than he had anticipated
quite impressed: 'way to go'.

My mate just went though this when replacing a CU for his son and even
the wholesaler was 'surprised' how little difference it was,
especially when you consider the bigger picture (the cost of the whole
job, the improved flexibility / resilience etc).

It means one fault does not bring down
the whole system.

Yup.

It should mean my computer is protected.

If that was important your computer would be on a UPS in any case. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 14/07/2018 10:39, Robin wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARWÂ* wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly
dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the
tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.


I'd have thought it tricky to do an EICR if removing an accessory (eg a
light switch) risks the insulation falling off the cable.


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

--
Adam

On 14/07/2018 11:27, ARW wrote:


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

I haven't seen any for a while but used to stop unless there was plenty
of slack for when the end broke off. But then I (a) I wasn't being paid
and (b) [usually] didn't want to **** off the relative/friend/neighbour
stupid enough to ask me to do summat by putting their light switch etc
out of use until the wall was excavated


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 14/07/2018 10:36, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARWÂ* wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly
dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the
tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.

any test I would have thought, including a visual inspection. Since just
taking sockets / switches off the wall to look behind them is a risk to
the insulation.



Someone asked me to see why a socket didn't work and the insulation
crumbled as I moved the socket. I had to carefully put some heat shrink
on and put it back and told him to get a quote for a rewire.

I don't think it was rubber insulation.
Not that I have come across any other insulation that crumbled.

On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection every
5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even every 10
years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every time they
change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has actually
had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.

On 14/07/2018 12:34, Robin wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:27, ARW wrote:


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

I haven't seen any for a while but used to stop unless there was plenty
of slack for when the end broke off.Â* But then I (a) I wasn't being paid
and (b) [usually] didn't want to **** off the relative/friend/neighbour
stupid enough to ask me to do summat by putting their light switch etc
out of use until the wall was excavated



I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.

--
Adam

On 14/07/2018 12:44, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection
every 5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even every
10 years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every time they
change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has actually
had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.



They would not have enough staff or money to do a full EICR every year
on every council house.

Maybe a visual inspection?

It is normal for the gf's house to be visited once a year to have a
visual inspection of the house but nothing to do with the electrics.

--
Adam

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:15:36 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

My electrician was
astonished at first but when the cost was less than he had anticipated
quite impressed: 'way to go'.

My mate just went though this when replacing a CU for his son and even
the wholesaler was 'surprised' how little difference it was,
especially when you consider the bigger picture (the cost of the whole
job, the improved flexibility / resilience etc).

It means one fault does not bring down
the whole system.

Yup.

It should mean my computer is protected.

If that was important your computer would be on a UPS in any case. ;-)

This is true, but I have concerns about energy efficiency of such
equipment. It's a balance. We're in an area where power cuts are
rare (no overhead wiring), I have more or less eliminated RCD trip and
Mr Gates provides good resilience so I think I have done enough.

On 14/07/2018 12:44, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:34, Robin wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:27, ARW wrote:


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

I haven't seen any for a while but used to stop unless there was
plenty of slack for when the end broke off.Â* But then I (a) I wasn't
being paid and (b) [usually] didn't want to **** off the
relative/friend/neighbour stupid enough to ask me to do summat by
putting their light switch etc out of use until the wall was excavated



I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.


OK, ta. Given you've seen more installations than I've had hot wotsits
that confirms it's time for me to wear the bottoms of my trousers
rolled. And to check I'm wearing some before leaving the house.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, Robin wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection every
5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even every 10
years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every time they
change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has actually
had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.

for gas, they have to.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 14/07/2018 12:51, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:44, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection
every 5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even every
10 years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every time they
change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has actually
had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.



They would not have enough staff or money to do a full EICR every year
on every council house.

Maybe a visual inspection?

It is normal for the gf's house to be visited once a year to have a
visual inspection of the house but nothing to do with the electrics.


I was in a council house on monday and the electrician said he was there
for the annual inspection. He was doing full insulation tests, etc. and
was even checking the interlinks on the battery smoke alarms. Well they
may have been mains but there was a pp3 in them.

On 14/07/2018 12:44, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:34, Robin wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:27, ARW wrote:


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

I haven't seen any for a while but used to stop unless there was
plenty of slack for when the end broke off.Â* But then I (a) I wasn't
being paid and (b) [usually] didn't want to **** off the
relative/friend/neighbour stupid enough to ask me to do summat by
putting their light switch etc out of use until the wall was excavated



I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.

The extension on this house was built with aluminium cored T&E.

It's the only time I have seen it.

SteveW

On 14/07/2018 12:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:36, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARWÂ* wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly
dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the
tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.

any test I would have thought, including a visual inspection. Since
just taking sockets / switches off the wall to look behind them is a
risk to the insulation.



Someone asked me to see why a socket didn't work and the insulation
crumbled as I moved the socket. I had to carefully put some heat shrink
on and put it back and told him to get a quote for a rewire.

I don't think it was rubber insulation.
Not that I have come across any other insulation that crumbled.

Probably was rubber then... once it gets old enough it becomes crispy
and fragile - it can just fall off in lumps rather like the wires were
insulated with a layer of mud!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/07/2018 13:52, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:51, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:44, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection
every 5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even
every 10 years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every
time they change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has
actually had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.



They would not have enough staff or money to do a full EICR every year
on every council house.

Maybe a visual inspection?

It is normal for the gf's house to be visited once a year to have a
visual inspection of the house but nothing to do with the electrics.


I was in a council house on monday and the electrician said he was there
for the annual inspection. He was doing full insulation tests, etc. and
was even checking the interlinks on the battery smoke alarms. Well they
may have been mains but there was a pp3 in them.




Mains powered interlinked smoke alarms with battery back, known as a
grade D installation.


Now unless you were there for 3 to 4 hours how do you know that this was
a full test. I suspect this was a visual basic with a smoke alarm test.

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms for
an elderly/disabled tenant.


--
Adam

On 14/07/2018 12:34, Robin wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:27, ARW wrote:


Both you and John are correct.


It might pass an insulation resistance test as long as you do not
actually move the wires.

JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

Don't think I have ever seen any in domestic wiring... other than things
like drop wires from overhead supplies.

Seen plenty of variations VIR and other rubber like insulations.
Separate steel earth wires, and even a few lead sheathed paper insulated
cables.

Oh and cheap crap copper clad ali network cable!

I haven't seen any for a while but used to stop unless there was plenty
of slack for when the end broke off.Â* But then I (a) I wasn't being paid
and (b) [usually] didn't want to **** off the relative/friend/neighbour
stupid enough to ask me to do summat by putting their light switch etc
out of use until the wall was excavated

Indeed, doing nothing or full replacement are often the only two
pragmatic options.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are pretty
pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers plug
directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after installing
mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was approximately 1/3 of
the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a lot further upward than
downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.

SteveW

On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like,
but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are pretty
pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers plug
directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after installing
mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was approximately 1/3 of
the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a lot further upward than
downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.

ISTR that Scott had a Starbreaker RCBO set up.


--
Adam

On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd like,
but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are pretty
pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers plug
directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after installing
mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was approximately 1/3 of
the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a lot further upward than
downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

I fitted a few RCBOs into my parents Starbreaker CU a few years ago to
fetch it up to the 17th edition regs.

I fitted their CU back in 2004 when they bought the place and I did a
16th edition fusebox to CU swap.



--
Adam

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
All I can say is it doesn't happen here. But nothing with a heating
element here is RCD protected.

That's the problem with "whole house" RCDs - even the circuits that
gain little benefit from protection like immersion heaters and cookers
get lumped in with everything else on the same RCD.

Exactly why I went for split load.

But the point I was making was that if the cause of a whole house RCD
constantly tripping is electronics, it would happen here too. As here they
are all on one RCD.

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
JOOI what do you/John do when faced with aluminium cable?

I've never come across it. Although have nothing like the experience of
Adam, etc. Perhaps it was never that common in London.

--
*Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP .

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.

The extension on this house was built with aluminium cored T&E.

It's the only time I have seen it.

Think it tends to date from a narrow window in time. When there was a
copper shortage - Rhodesia UDI?

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, 14 July 2018 15:27:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:

I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.

The extension on this house was built with aluminium cored T&E.

It's the only time I have seen it.

Think it tends to date from a narrow window in time. When there was a
copper shortage - Rhodesia UDI?

There were 2 periods when ali was fitted, in the 1950s & the 70s. I was offered some in the early 80s & declined. The 70s stuff was CCA, I don't remember whether in the 50s it was ali or CCA. It's a known fire risk.


NT

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
I have not come across it (apart from mains incomers). I have met the
old aluminium sheathed cable several times at work.

The extension on this house was built with aluminium cored T&E.

It's the only time I have seen it.

Think it tends to date from a narrow window in time. When there was a
copper shortage - Rhodesia UDI?

my 15th Edition of the Regs (1981) has tables for aluminium & copper. As
has the 16th (1992). I. sadly didn't keep my 13th & 14th editions. And, I
haven't yet bought the 18th!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 13:52, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:51, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 12:44, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 09:01, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 15:26, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, 13 July 2018 14:08:39 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/6/made
(at para. 3)

that does not give any reason to believe there are any separate
electrical regs for rented housing.

same regs, but a requirement that HMOs *must* have an inspection
every 5 years, whereas I doubt most normal homes have one even
every 10 years as "recommended", I doubt they even get one every
time they change hands.


I don't think I have ever been to domestic dwelling that has
actually had a 10 year test done at ten years.

The council around here does them annually for some reason.
Must be trying to keep unemployment down.



They would not have enough staff or money to do a full EICR every
year on every council house.

Maybe a visual inspection?

It is normal for the gf's house to be visited once a year to have a
visual inspection of the house but nothing to do with the electrics.


I was in a council house on monday and the electrician said he was
there for the annual inspection. He was doing full insulation tests,
etc. and was even checking the interlinks on the battery smoke alarms.
Well they may have been mains but there was a pp3 in them.




Mains powered interlinked smoke alarms with battery back, known as a
grade D installation.


Now unless you were there for 3 to 4 hours how do you know that this was
a full test. I suspect this was a visual basic with a smoke alarm test.

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms for
an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.

On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms for
an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.


Do you have an expected expiry date?


--
Adam

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 14/07/2018 12:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:36, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 10:07, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 July 2018 08:45:03 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andy Burns formulated the question :
My parents 1968 house still has a wooden framed wylex fuse board
same
as my house had, it's not been rewired in that time, has had the odd
spur added, and henley block inserted between meter and fuseboard to
feed dad's pottery shed, but no MCBs or RCDs.

I'm sure an inspection would highlight many things that could be
improved, but if it hasn't burnt down in 50 years it's hardly
dangerous.

Where do you draw the line. I would certainly condemn any 1930's
installation. A 1968 one, in reasonable condition - probably not, the
wiring being plastic will not have deteriorated, it should be earthed
throughout and earth bonded etc..


I would almost certainly stop a test if the cable was TRS or VRI as
the
chances of causing damage to the cables outweigh the benefits of the
tests.

I take it you mean insulation test.

any test I would have thought, including a visual inspection. Since just
taking sockets / switches off the wall to look behind them is a risk to
the insulation.



Someone asked me to see why a socket didn't work and the insulation
crumbled as I moved the socket. I had to carefully put some heat shrink
on and put it back and told him to get a quote for a rewire.

I don't think it was rubber insulation.
Not that I have come across any other insulation that crumbled.

Probably was rubber then... once it gets old enough it becomes crispy and
fragile - it can just fall off in lumps rather like the wires were
insulated with a layer of mud!

I still have a couple of the rubber extension cords that my father used with
an electric lawnmower in the 50s. They are still fine, surprisingly enough.

On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.


Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.
Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.

On 14/07/2018 14:57, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with an
RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd
like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are
pretty pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers
plug directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after
installing mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was
approximately 1/3 of the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a lot
further upward than downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the
middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

About 1993.

When I bought the house, it needed a full re-wire. My father was on some
of the British Standards committees (BS1363 and others) and spoke to a
fellow committee member from Crabtree and I got the CU, busbars,
isolator switch, RCD and MCBs as free samples!

SteveW

On 14/07/2018 19:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.

Sorry to hear that!

Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.

Well let's hope they carry on being wrong.

Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/07/2018 23:55, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:57, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, Steve Walker wrote:
On 14/07/2018 11:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:24:49 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:25:30 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/07/2018 17:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Am I right in thinking that no matter how dysfunctional or prone to
nuisance tripping it is, a 30mA whole house RCD still meets current
regulations?

Why would anyone claiming to have electronic skills put up with
an RCD
constantly tripping?

Is it constantly or frequently? Ours trips more often than I'd
like, but
with a ridiculous number of electronic devices with filters that
leak to
earth in our house, there is not a lot of margin and I can't
afford to
go through the hassle of replacing the CU to allow for splitting
between
two RCDs or switching to RCBOs.

I would strongly recommend RCBOs if within budget.

+1

Unbfortunately my CU is a Crabtree Starbreaker. RCBOs for it are
pretty pricey and other makes of breaker don't fit as the breakers
plug directly to the busbar with no screw clamp or similar.

The other problem is that it is an older model. Shortly after
installing mine, they changed the design so the DIN rail was
approximately 1/3 of the way up, allowing for RCBOs that stretch a
lot further upward than downwards. Mine has the DIN rail dead in the
middle and
I've never seen any RCBOs to fit it.



How old is it?

About 1993.

When I bought the house, it needed a full re-wire. My father was on some
of the British Standards committees (BS1363 and others) and spoke to a
fellow committee member from Crabtree and I got the CU, busbars,
isolator switch, RCD and MCBs as free samples!

I know the ones. The RCBOs for those units were double pole width

https://willrose-electrical.co.uk/pr...0-older-style/


However there are now these

https://www.electrium.co.uk/media/20...%20 (Web).pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_Zwo58wwbj4

You would have to call their tech support to see if they would fit your
board.


--
Adam

On 14/07/2018 19:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.


Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.
Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.


Good luck with it.

--
Adam

On 15/07/2018 00:10, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2018 19:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.

Sorry to hear that!

Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.

Well let's hope they carry on being wrong.

Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.





I'm not finding it too bad ATM.
Its a pain being connected to a drip all day and then having to take a
pump full of toxins home to continue for another two days. But I only
had 14 of those and I am only on cetribumax (sp?) ATM.

I think the side effects I have aren't particularly bad, mainly weight
control, and my nails keep delaminating which can make handling small
stuff painful and difficult.

The tumour has shrunk a lot but they can't remove it surgically so its
chemo followed by more chemo.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms for
an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.


Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.
Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.

But not necessarily stopping the end result.

Everyone I know who has died of terminal cancer, and its
quite a few now, has had the chemo doing something and
they died of it anyway.

You got secondarys ? No one survives that.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:56, ARW wrote:
On 14/07/2018 16:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2018 14:15, ARW wrote:

Or far more likely it was just an annual check of the smoke alarms
for an elderly/disabled tenant.



He had been there a hour before I arrived and was still there when I
left an hour later.
yes a disabled tenant.
Terminal cancer like me.


Do you have an expected expiry date?


They said six months but that was november.
Chemo every two weeks seems to be doing something.

Crikey. Hope it continues to work, and for a long time.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.