On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 21:56:37 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:

The genset may be able to handle such a surge loading without the backup
of the SmartUPS in any case.

I tested the overload behaviour of my 1kVA inverter generator. For
modest overloads, it drops the output from 230V to 210V for about 3s.
If the overload is sustained then it cuts out. This means that motor
loads such as my small angle grinder can be started.

It is happy driving computers and other capacitive loads as expected.

John

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:18:35 -0700, jrwalliker wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 21:56:37 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:

The genset may be able to handle such a surge loading without the
backup
of the SmartUPS in any case.

I tested the overload behaviour of my 1kVA inverter generator. For
modest overloads, it drops the output from 230V to 210V for about 3s.
If the overload is sustained then it cuts out. This means that motor
loads such as my small angle grinder can be started.

It is happy driving computers and other capacitive loads as expected.

Thanks John,

The user guide for the Parkside PGI 1200 B2 claims a 5 second overload
sustain of 1.2KVA with a maximum continuous load rating of 1KVA. I
estimated a fivefold startup load from the freezer for its 70 watt steady
running state, about 350W peak. That's only an educated guess but I think
it's in the 'Ball Park'.

Assuming I time a freezer switch on for no or very little load, I'd have
to have underestimated the peak by a factor of three to be in trouble.
I'll know for certain when I've finished commissioning the UPS in
readiness for the genset's first run (no point starting it up until I
have the UPS back in commission).

At the moment I've got the UPS sat on my workbench connected to a 48v
battery pack of 7A SLAs (a brand new set of alarm batteries) after
opening the inverter case to access VR4 (the float charge voltage setting
pot)[1] which I've now got set to 54.2v with the battery disconnected
(UPS disabled - it drops to 53.9/54.0 v when enabled). I'm allowing it
some 'warming up time' to let it settle before I close everything up and
return it to its basement location.

I obviously need to increase the voltage slightly to account for the
small discrepancy between enabled and disabled charging operation. I'm
aiming for a float charge voltage of 54.1/54.2 volts (13.525/13.55 volts
per SLA battery). My big mistake with the other battery packs had been to
try and set it to 55.2v (13.8v per SLA battery) without disconnecting the
battery, relying on the batteries having reached full charge after
several days of charging and therefore at their limiting voltage. Months
later, that limiting voltage had crept up to 55.5 volts. Naively, I
didn't think the extra 0.3v was of any significance back then so left it
alone. I've since come to realise that that was a big mistake. :-(

Float charging at a constant 13.8v per 6 cell pack 24/7 365 days a year
is bad enough without pushing it even higher to almost 13.9v! I'm not
going to make *that* mistake again so I'm setting the enabled float
charge voltage to 54.2v. I'd rather sacrifice a few percent of new
battery autonomy for an extra two or three years of *useful* service life
thank you very much, APC! ("Consumables" my arse!).

Getting back on topic, it looks like I'm going to be paying my local
MachineMart a visit tomorrow to pick up the Hippo Pump that Terry Casey
recommended. Despite all our valiant efforts in clearing our blocked
drain, I'm still seeing water ingress into the basement. It's been a dry
day today so it's a bit of a puzzle as to the true nature of our elevated
water table and I'm beginning to wonder whether there's a leaking water
main nearby.

I shut off our stopcock about an hour ago to test for the unlikely event
that we have a sneaky leak somewhere. I turned the bathroom basin cold
tap on half an hour later to test and, worryingly, only got a short
trickle. The groundfloor cold taps produced the expected flow, suggesting
there may be a leak in the first floor plumbing but if there is, it's a
damned quiet leak considering its effect on the local water table.

I'll give it another hour or so before I take another look at our pond
in the coal hole to see whether shutting the water off has had any
positive effect on the situation. TBH, I'll be totally flabbergasted if
it has.

[1] The circuit diagram sheets for this ancient UPS are dated "7/7/93"
making the design, if not its manufacture, almost a quarter of a century
old! Although it's microprocessor controlled, I can't recall seeing any
options in its command set regarding float charging voltage settings
which I believe much later models have. In any case, the settings in this
model seem to have been locked against any changes being made. It's just
as well that there is a "VR4 Pot" for adjusting the float charging
voltage or else I'd be 'stuffed' with regard to improving the life of my
"Consumables".



--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

Float charging at a constant 13.8v per 6 cell pack 24/7 365 days a year
is bad enough without pushing it even higher to almost 13.9v!

What is the real-world temperature within the UPS case? Check how the
battery manufacturer de-rates their charge voltage per degree above 25°C
or whatever they set as 'normal'.

Johnny

I'd been hanging on for over a year awaiting Lidl's next batch of 1.2KVA
(pk) inverter gensets to arrive in their stores when I spotted,
completely out of the blue, a half pallet's worth (4 or 5) at the bargain
price of 99 quid rather than at their more usual 129 quid price point.
That low price was an unexpected bonus, matching the price paid by
another 'jammy' poster to this news group nearly two years back who'd
discovered his 99 quid bargain hidden underneath a pile of clothing in
the "Reduced To Clear" bin in another Lidl store (the lucky git!).
Suffice to say, that was the very first item placed into the XYL's
shopping trolly that Sunday afternoon. :-)

At the time when I read that lucky git's posting, my thought was, "Yeah,
at that price, even though it's way under-powered for my needs,

As said lucky git I remembered that when I visited a Lidl at opening time
on Sunday Morning and saw a similar pile of generators. Didnt look too
hard as my target purchase was elsewhere but did notice the boxes looked
more rectangular than the one I obtained which was a cube. Whether the
model has been changed much I havent had time to look and at that price
point it doesnt really matter,it will either work for you or not and not
too great a loss if it doesnt. I havent used mine in anger for running in
a power cut yet,the supply has been quite robust since purchase. Another
resident of the village borrowed it for a night to run a moth trap in a
field and it ran ok but it was lightly loaded, Ive used an electric
chainsaw on it on a couple of occasions such sawing up some fallen branches
on a roadside and it coped. Nice and light to pop in the car for that.

My target on Sunday was the wildlife cameras, normally Im not one of
those who chases bargains to the extent of arriving at store open time but
was glad I did on this occasion as they only seemed to have about 10 on
sale, I picked up two and all had gone by 20 mins. I did some other
shopping and then noticed an old chap looking a bit crestfallen at the
empty bin,he had made a visit specially to purchase one and had already
missed out at another store only about 5 miles away, so I let him have one
of the two I had.
I already have a Bushnell and a little acorn so didnt need to be greedy.


GH

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:53:28 +0000, Marland wrote:

Johnny

I'd been hanging on for over a year awaiting Lidl's next batch of
1.2KVA
(pk) inverter gensets to arrive in their stores when I spotted,
completely out of the blue, a half pallet's worth (4 or 5) at the
bargain price of 99 quid rather than at their more usual 129 quid price
point. That low price was an unexpected bonus, matching the price paid
by another 'jammy' poster to this news group nearly two years back
who'd discovered his 99 quid bargain hidden underneath a pile of
clothing in the "Reduced To Clear" bin in another Lidl store (the lucky
git!). Suffice to say, that was the very first item placed into the
XYL's shopping trolly that Sunday afternoon. :-)

At the time when I read that lucky git's posting, my thought was,
"Yeah,
at that price, even though it's way under-powered for my needs,

As said lucky git I remembered that when I visited a Lidl at opening
time on Sunday Morning and saw a similar pile of generators. Didnt
look too hard as my target purchase was elsewhere but did notice the
boxes looked more rectangular than the one I obtained which was a cube.
Whether the model has been changed much I havent had time to look and
at that price point it doesnt really matter,it will either work for
you or not and not too great a loss if it doesnt. I havent used mine
in anger for running in a power cut yet,the supply has been quite robust
since purchase. Another resident of the village borrowed it for a night
to run a moth trap in a field and it ran ok but it was lightly loaded,
Ive used an electric chainsaw on it on a couple of occasions such
sawing up some fallen branches on a roadside and it coped. Nice and
light to pop in the car for that.

The genset *was* rather a snug fit in the box so unless there was extra
padding in the one you'd bought, it might well be a different model
despite having the same output specification (1KVA cont./1.2KVA peak).


My target on Sunday was the wildlife cameras, normally Im not one of
those who chases bargains to the extent of arriving at store open time
but was glad I did on this occasion as they only seemed to have about 10
on sale, I picked up two and all had gone by 20 mins. I did some other
shopping and then noticed an old chap looking a bit crestfallen at the
empty bin,he had made a visit specially to purchase one and had already
missed out at another store only about 5 miles away, so I let him have
one of the two I had.
I already have a Bushnell and a little acorn so didnt need to be
greedy.


I appreciate the response. :-) As you pointed out, at that price point
(cheapest genset yet!) it's well worth a punt. In my case, even if it
can't handle the freezer startup surge, it's worth it just to prove that
there *is* a way to combine a sub-50KVA genset with a 2KVA UPS. :-)

At the time, the cheapest 3KVA inverter gensets I could track down were
a still considerable 600 quid or so. Even though that was only about a
third of the price of a brand new Honda inverter genset of that rating,
it still represented a sizeable investment so I did my usual and
procrastinated over making such a purchase. You could say that my motto
is "If in doubt, procrastinate!" since this strategy has served me quite
well over the past half century or so. :-)

The last time that Lidl had advertised the sale of these gensets some 6
months or so back, they failed to materialise in any of their stores
apparently, according to one Lidl shop assistant I queried, due to them
being recalled for some unexplained reason. Their appearance this time
round was totally unannounced and it was pure dumb luck that I happened
to accompany my XYL on her shopping trip when I spotted this most
unexpected surprise. Their remarkably low price was just icing on the
cake (I'd have bought one anyway even if they'd been priced at their
previous price of 129 quid).

Even though it's been 4 days (and counting) since I made my purchase,
I've yet to fire it up to test it out. The main reason for the delay
being my basement flooding problems, compounded by my desire to get back
to square one with the UPS setup that I want to test it with. I got a set
of batteries today for the UPS and I now have it set not to cook my new
set of "consumables".

Happily, I already had a half a litre's worth of 10W-40 lube oil to prep
the genset and just need to buy 4 or 5 litres of unleaded to fuel it up.
I can swing by a petrol station tomorrow when I visit MachineMart to pick
up the Hippo water pump that Terry had recommended (I'm still having
water ingress issues in the basement).

With luck, I might be able to say whether it is a functional or a DoA
genset by tomorrow afternoon. It's like the Schroedingers Cat thought
experiment question - right now it's both dead and alive and I won't know
which it is until I take that(or those) first (few) pull(s) on the
starter cord. I don't usually wait more than an hour or two between
purchase and testing but real life rather got in the way and spoilt my
fun. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:47:44 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Float charging at a constant 13.8v per 6 cell pack 24/7 365 days a year
is bad enough without pushing it even higher to almost 13.9v!

What is the real-world temperature within the UPS case? Check how the
battery manufacturer de-rates their charge voltage per degree above 25°C
or whatever they set as 'normal'.

This particular model of APC UPS, a SmartUPS2000, is a split design
where the inverter/control gubbins is housed in a separate box which sits
atop of a battery box. I purchased the unit 2nd hand at a radio ham rally
sans battery box so have had to connect to a separate battery bank on the
shelf below the one that the UPS sits upon.

The shelving unit is one I made up from dexion shelving with a
supplementary MDF shelf slung under the top shelf using threaded stud
iron to house a set of 25AH and 7AH SLAs which have now long since been
scrapped. The middle dexion shelf below that still houses my second lot
of cheap 36AH car batteries, also long since knackered and awaiting
disassembly for carting off to my local scrappy when I get a round tuit.

This means that the batteries are even more isolated from the heat of
the UPS inverter/control components than normal (which was pretty well
isolated to begin with) being essentially at the cellar's ambient
temperature somewhere around the 12 to 15 deg C mark making the UPS
temperature somewhat immaterial in this case. Despite the cool
conditions, the use of a 13.8v per 12v SLA float charging setting still
managed to shorten the life of the battery packs through accelerated
corrosion.

The dexion shelving housing the UPS and its batteries lives in the very
same coal hole part of the basement that provides early warning of
flooding which this time round I'm beginning to suspect may be due to a
leaking water main modulating the local water table.

I just checked the water level in the coal hole a couple of hours ago,
about an hour after I turned the mains water supply back on, and it has
now dropped about an inch or so, coinciding with the late night drop in
mains water pressure that I typically notice just after midnight.

It seems the blocked drain wasn't to blame this time round, merely a
discovery prompted by my checking it for a repeat performance of it
causing basement flooding some 30 years earlier. Despite my managing to
successfully unblock the drain, the basement flooding issue most
definitely hasn't gone away this time round and all the signs suggest a
strong possibility of a water main leak (a lack of recent rainfall and no
foul smell to the water leaking in).

I'll be phoning the water company tomorrow to report the problem as well
as getting hold of a suitable water pump to keep the flooding under
control whilst I wait for the water company to respond (I'm expecting
some resistance to acknowledging their responsibility in this matter).

--
Johnny B Good

..

I'll be phoning the water company tomorrow to report the problem as well
as getting hold of a suitable water pump to keep the flooding under
control whilst I wait for the water company to respond (I'm expecting
some resistance to acknowledging their responsibility in this matter).

Do! There're usually very helpful and its in their own interest to
clear up any leaks!
--
Tony Sayer

On 10/04/2018 00:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snipped

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?


A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.

Hefty? A wall wart will give you 2 amps, which will drive one of the
small pumps. It's not as if you need a huge flow rate.



Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought
one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible
warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch. However,
I've since seen other references about "Not suitable for permanent
installation." where they clearly mean not suited for continuous
operation as pond pumps. Considering their most common sump pump usage,
that's a surprising way to describe their unsuitability for continuous
pond recirculation duty when you don't want to put prospective sump pump
purchasers off.

I noticed that Screwfix are selling a Titan submersible pump, complete
with the same ridiculous float switch dangling off the end of a mains
flex which requires the diameter of the sump to be double that of the
pump body itself simply to accommodate its range of movement. The
attraction in this case being its low price of 40 quid.

If I *have* to dig out my rather neat sump standpipe, then it might as
well be for this pump than for its more expensive but equally
pathetically designed automatic float switch operation models. I'm hoping
my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My Franken-
solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search for a
suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be sufficient but
given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips, I'm sure I can
cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

I have to confess the Franken-solution has a certain appeal to me too :-)

On 11/04/2018 21:23, Rob Morley wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:45:47 GMT
Johnny B Good wrote:

How many here, in this DIY group, *don't* have a
collection of scrapped washing machine parts to hand? :-)

I don't - SO threatened me with incessant nagging if I kept any more
useful bits of stuff, when the last machine died. (I do have a whole
machine stashed away, but that's "waiting to be fixed" and "too good to
break".)

My wife doesn't venture into the workshop (where I keep many such
things). Going somewhat OT, one of our kids has just had his offer
accepted on a garden flat in London, and I was delighted to see there is
a shed in the garden. Well, actually it is a poncy thing which they call
a chalet, but it will still serve as a shed.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 10:36:47 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

.

I'll be phoning the water company tomorrow to report the problem as
well
as getting hold of a suitable water pump to keep the flooding under
control whilst I wait for the water company to respond (I'm expecting
some resistance to acknowledging their responsibility in this matter).

Do! There're usually very helpful and its in their own interest to
clear up any leaks!

You'd think so but after describing my problem and suspicions to the
United Utilities "Report a Leak" customer services chap early this
afternoon, the earliest appointment I could get for an engineering visit
was the 25th of April.

I mentioned our lead service pipe but was told that all pipework within
the boundary of the property was the property owner's responsibility,
including the issue of replacing the old lead service pipe. Long gone are
the days of a caring nationalised water industry thanks to M. Thatcher
and co. :-(

If they want me to take responsibility for all the pipework from their
street stopcock onwards, then they'll jolly well have to make sure that I
have a key and access to a working stopcock before I accept such
responsibility. It'll be interesting to see what their engineers have to
say on the matter.

Anyhow, with that in mind, I took another look at the Clarke Hippo pump
recommended by Terry he

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hippo-2-1in-submersible-water-pump/

followed by looking at the "CUSTOMERS WHO BOUGHT THIS ALSO BOUGHT"
section below which lead me to this gem:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051011800/ and then onto this:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-bip1000-1-electric-water-pump/

followed by this:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-fvf10-plastic-foot-valve/

before I eventually landed up looking at this:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cl-msp12-pump-kit12v/?instore=Liverpool

Since it was so much cheaper, could fit into my sump standpipe and
didn't need extra optional accessories (other than for a 10m coil of 1
inch garden hose to stretch the supplied 3m outlet hose from the sump
pipe location out to the back door), I decided to purchase that instead
of the Clarke Hippo pump. At a mere £20.39, I thought it was well worth a
punt.

I know I initially decried such a pump on the grounds of the cost of an
additional 12vdc supply but since Clarke claim a modest current draw of
just 4.5A and I already have a 13.5v 10A smpsu to hand anyway (as well as
a 12AH SLA bought 2nd hand from a local flea market 4 or 5 years ago for
the princely sum of 5 quid), I decided it was well worth a punt at less
than a third the price of the Hippo pump.

When I got my 'bargain pump' back home, I tested it out with the 12AH SLA
battery on the modest pool of water that awaited, extending the outlet
hose over the backdoor threshold with about 6 metre's worth of garden
hose off cuts I had to hand. I was able to just reach the puddles with
this setup but it was enough to prove its efficacy at lifting the unasked
for water out of the coal hole.

I've now got a choice of drilling through 18 inches of brick to directly
route the outlet hose onto the drive by the front door or else buy
another 10m coil of garden hose to replace my 6 metre's worth of joined
up hoses so I can drop the pump into the sump pipe to pump out via the
back door.

The former choice is a neater more permanent solution but involves some
hard work. The latter just involves parting with a little more cash and
the more fiddly process of throwing a hose up the basement steps and out
through an open back door each time we need to "Man the Pumps".

For now at least, I'm going to buy the extra garden hose required for
the "Quick 'n' Dirty" fix since it'll do the job for now and I can
reconsider the more elegant solution at my leisure when the novelty of
laying out a hose to an open backdoor on a regular basis starts wearing
thin.

The modest pumping rate of 16.5 litre per minute might seem a little
marginal but compared to using a wet 'n' dry vac cannister as a 20 litre
bucket in a 'One bucket chain', it's a much superior solution, even
allowing for the 15 minute per half hour duty cycle limitation[1].

The pump is specified to produce 15psi/1 bar of pressure but whether
that's at the rated 16.5 litres per minute flow rate or just the barest
of trickles is not spelled out. I guess I can check that out later with a
measuring jug and a stopwatch once I've bought the extra 10 metre length
of garden hose to let me pump the sump out to the back door. Whatever
flow rate I measure out of the backdoor will obviously be improved upon
with the more direct exit route onto the driveway by the front door so
it'll be interesting to get some measure of the pump's performance even
under this less than ideal condition.

[1] My problem is less to do with a sudden and overwhelming inundation
than it is to do with a slow but persistent rise of water level that
needs to be kept at bay for hours on end. A high capacity pump would
spend most of its time idle, waiting for the level to rise sufficiently
in the sump for it to have something to work with. I think this little
pump will suffice but if I'm wrong, I'll have only 'wasted £20.39' in
discovering the error and it's easy enough to purchase a better one later
on when one has proof positive of the need for a more expensive pump.

--
Johnny B Good

On Friday, 13 April 2018 22:49:30 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
... more fiddly process of throwing a hose up the basement steps
and out through an open back door each time we need to "Man the Pumps".

Don't you have a catflap for the hose?

Owain

Johnny B Good Wrote in
Chapter 9....

Snippppp!

FFS could you at least make it rhyme or something?

I think your "prevaricator" equals my "lazy *******" ;-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:14:27 -0700, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Friday, 13 April 2018 22:49:30 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
... more fiddly process of throwing a hose up the basement steps and
out through an open back door each time we need to "Man the Pumps".

Don't you have a catflap for the hose?


No cat! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:14:25 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 10/04/2018 00:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

====snip====

A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float
switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.

Hefty? A wall wart will give you 2 amps, which will drive one of the
small pumps. It's not as if you need a huge flow rate.

It's true that I need a modest flow rate that can be sustained
sufficiently to outpace the rising water level but even the modest 16.5
litres per minute at a 50% duty cycle of the small 12vdc pump that I did
land up buying from MachineMart today claims a 4.5A requirement (which I
thought was quite modest). Since I already had a 13.5v 10A smpsu to hand,
along with a 12AH SLA in serviceable condition, it seemed worth taking a
punt at a mere £20.39. :-)

TBH, I doubt a small enough pump to keep the current demand within the
2A limit of a 12v wallwart would be up to the job. However, despite my
original rejection of your advice, I reconsidered it in the light of the
specs shown in the manual I downloaded this afternoon (one of many such
pdfs btw) and bought this pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cl-msp12-pump-kit12v/?instore=Liverpool

which slides rather neatly down my sump standpipe.

I just need to extend its supplied 3 metre outlet hose another 10 metres
to pump out from the standpipe location to out of the backdoor. All I
could manage this afternoon was a basic test on the more accessible coal
hole puddles which suggests that it's likely to suffice for the job in
hand.


Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just
bought one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early
audible warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch.

That's going to be a project for another day. The problem with using
electrodes dipping into the water to detect the level, as one sump pump
manufacturer demonstrated to its trusting customers, is the risk of false
detection due to water film bridging across the electrode insulator.

A float operated sensor is more reliable if designed carefully or else
the use of a pressure sensor as used by the washing machine manufacturers
can prove an effective alternative. I'll probably pick the simplest to
implement, a simple float operated switch, but it depends on how complex
a controller I decide to fabricate. I need not only to prevent dry
running but also to limit the duty cycle to a max of 15 minutes per half
hour of run time with this pump so there'll likely be some electronics
involved that otherwise wouldn't have existed which would have made the
float operated microswitch the obvious solution.


I'm hoping my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My
Franken- solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search
for a suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be
sufficient but given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips,
I'm sure I can cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

I have to confess the Franken-solution has a certain appeal to me too
:-)

I did find the W/M pump but not assembled onto a board as I seemed to
recall, just the bare pump and its inlet hose. TBH, it was all starting
to look a more fiddly job than I CBA to spend time on, hence my
continuing search for a ready made solution, culminating in the purchase
of that Clarke MSP12 - 12 Submersible Transfer Pump that I discovered as
a 'Sale Item' on MachineMart's website earlier today (Friday).

As a "Thought Experiment" it was all 'Fine on Paper' but quite frankly,
I didn't have enough motivation to spend any time on translating it into
actual hardware. In the end, it was your suggestion that won the day,
even if it was in a round about way (and tipped by the sale price of the
pump in MachineMart).

--
Johnny B Good

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 00:13:33 +0000, Johnny B Good wrote:

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 18:02:13 +0100, Terry Casey wrote:

In article , johnny-b-
says...

...or does it mean they're simply not able to withstand being sat in a
puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table is high -
usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a plain to the north
of us which was riddled with gravel extraction pits and took its time
to reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire place but,
when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't pump below about
18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left running
after the water has all gone without damage. No float switch so has to
be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which made it
the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole was only a few feet
away and the cover had a convenient bar running across the underside so
I put a couple to tie-wraps together to anchor the hose pipe to (I
originally used rope but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The
mains cable was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first to
notice the water rising so the plan of action was to wait for the water
to get near the cellar stairs (slight upward slope) at which point it
was worthwhile running the pump. Open coal hole and lift out the hose,
the cast iron lid ensuring that it didn't try and get back down the
hole again, open cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in
the hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle,
then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug pump, replace
mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid. Finished!

This looks like the pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hipp...ersible-water- pump/


or: https://tinyurl.com/hippo-pump

although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or so years
ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking inflation into
consideration.


It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move -
never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we no longer
have a cellar!)

Although the need for a pump has been rendered academic after Tuesday's
drain rodding adventures, I do appreciate your suggestion. What's
particularly appealing about this pump is the fact that, unlike pretty
well all the other pumps I'd been considering, it doesn't need total
immersion to prime itself, just a mere half inch deep puddle of water
suffices in this case!

I'd say that was a major plus point to anyone contemplating a less
onerous means than a bailing and bucket brigade solution to an
occasionally flooding cellar. :-)

I was on the point of buying the Hippo pump from our local MachineMart
on Friday but did my usual 'last minute browse' on their website to make
sure there wasn't a better alternative I'd failed to spot which resulted
in my purchasing that 12v submersible pump kit that would (and does!) fit
into my sump standpipe. There wasn't enough hose for me to pump from the
standpipe out to the backdoor so I was only able to test it on the more
accessible puddles which proved it was up to the job.

This morning, my son discovered that the coal hole had completely
drained out. When I looked at it just after 1pm, even the 'mini-sumplet'
next to the entrance showed only a moist looking muddy bottom. I've no
doubt I could pump out another 50 or 60 litres from the sump stand pipe
if I cared to try but without a 10 metre hose extension, there's not a
lot of point (I don't fancy running another bucket chain).

I was planning on buying a 10 metre coil of 1 inch garden hose today
(Saturday) to allow me to pump the sump out to the back door but I got
roped into supervising my sprog's offer of help in clearing out the
(largely) rotting collection of 'valuable junk' that was cluttering up
the coal hole. As a result, he chauffeured 2 loads of 'junk' to the tip
and I never made it to our local Lidl/Aldi to buy the hosepipe.

With the coal hole finally properly dry, I've decided to have a go at
installing a more direct and permanent drain hose route instead of buying
more hosepipe to take the water out of the backdoor.

There's a good chance it'll be dry enough this afternoon (Sunday) for me
to probe one of the front door threshold vent holes with a long masonry
bit attached to my ancient B&D drill. With luck, it should poke through
the plasterboard sheeting that was nailed to the underside of the hallway
entrance joists over the coal hole which should provide a guide as to how
best to route the final length of 15mm copper pipe outlet to which to
attach the pump's flexible hose. Hopefully, I can avoid drilling a 3/4
inch hole through 18 inches' worth of Victorian brickwork and do the job
'smarter, not harder'. :-)

Sod's Law decrees that I'll never suffer another flood once I have an
effective 'no fuss' solution in place (it'll be merely a matter of
lowering the pump into the sump pipe and switching it on once I've sorted
out a fixed and direct route for the drain hose). I can sort out a sump
level sensor at my leisure, along with a simple controller to operate the
pump on a strict 50% duty cycle (15 minute on/15 minutes rest) as well as
avoid dry running.

I won't be leaving the pump permanently installed in the sump pipe in
order to avoid premature failure since the user guide/manual advises that
it be stored clean and dry between sessions of use. It might be rated for
total immersion but I suspect indefinite periods of total immersion for
months at a time might finally prove too much of a strain on its
waterproof seals so I'll not be taking any chances in its care and
maintenance. It's only a 'cheap solution' if you don't have to buy a new
pump every 12 months or so.

This is the penultimate episode in my 'basement pump saga'. I'll post a
final 'episode' after I've finished the permanent installation as per the
above plan and report my results, hopefully in the next day or two.

--
Johnny B Good

On 09-Apr-18 7:13 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051012200/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051011800/

This one needs initial priming but with a one way "foot valve" to stop
it draining back it doesn't need further priming. Problem is if water is
dirty it can be trapped in foot valve and allow the suction pipe to
drain. Also dirty water may wear the plastic impeller. So the foot valve
also needs a filter.
https://www.anchorpumps.com/stuart-t...ster-pump-240v

Centrifugal pump can not be "self priming". It needs a piston/diaphragm
or helical. Piston/diaphragm pumps will have simple one way delivery
valves and can't pump dirty water.

Proper dirty water self priming is not cheap.
https://www.anglianpumping.com/produ...AjJQEALw_ wcB

On Sun, 15 Apr 2018 10:50:09 +0100, Peter Hill wrote:

On 09-Apr-18 7:13 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051012200/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051011800/

I was looking at those last Friday before I decided to take a punt on
their 12 volt 'special' for a mere £20.39 (Clarke MSP12 - 12V Submersible
Transfer Pump) which proved to be adequate for my particular problem.


This one needs initial priming but with a one way "foot valve" to stop
it draining back it doesn't need further priming. Problem is if water is
dirty it can be trapped in foot valve and allow the suction pipe to
drain. Also dirty water may wear the plastic impeller. So the foot valve
also needs a filter.

It was the need for the foot valve and other accessories that made the
12v pump so attractive - practically everything I need for my planned
installation apart from a yard or so's worth of 15mm copper outflow pipe
to direct the water out onto my driveway next to the front door step
almost immediately above my sump standpipe.

https://www.anchorpumps.com/stuart-t...r-centrifugal-
booster-pump-240v

Not at all suitable for pumping out a basement sump. That's intended for
boosting shower water pressure and the like.


Centrifugal pump can not be "self priming". It needs a piston/diaphragm
or helical. Piston/diaphragm pumps will have simple one way delivery
valves and can't pump dirty water.

Proper dirty water self priming is not cheap.
https://www.anglianpumping.com/produ...mono-cms-400v-
water-pump?
gclid=Cj0KCQjw8MvWBRC8ARIsAOFSVBUNqfX5NZAEk8vMJGZ8 v8bUcA_By1f8HvxtXEzcoLoUE8QyicjqOTwaAjJQEALw_wcB

Blimey! You weren't kidding about it not being cheap! That works out at
a smidgen more than 23 times the price I paid for the 12v pump!

I was hoping I could make a start on installing the outflow pipe section
this afternoon but the weather took a turn for the worse by the time I'd
bought myself 5 litres of unleaded to fuel up the inverter genset, dosed
the sump with the required 250ml of 10W-40 oil and set it up for a test
run only to discover it was faulty (possibly due to an overload from the
PF correction inductor I'd forgotten to disconnect from the feed cable
running from the back door down into the basement).

I had my lad help me start the genny (I'm finding it very hard work to
yank on a starter cord these days - mind you, even 15 years ago it was
hard work trying to start a cheap, temperamental two stroke 720W petrol
generator so no great surprise there). As things turned out we found
ourselves having to restart it several times to reset the "Overvolt" trip
before discovering it was tripping out all by itself (no lead plugged
into its singular 13A outlet socket) within a few seconds of each start
up.

The second restart to reset the initial overload from the dozen or so
400VA transformer primaries I'd been using as a PF correction inductor
for the previous 2.8KVA genset (and forgotten to disconnect), provided a
few second's worth of power for the UPS to pass through to the load
before cutting out, never to reset the overvolt alarm thereafter.

Unfortunately, by the time I'd drained the oil and fuel to return it, it
had gone 4 O'clock, Lidl's Sunday closing time. Not only that but the
weather had turned showery making it a little dangerous to be using a
mains voltage electric drill outside in order to probe under the hallway
floorboards with a long masonry drill bit via one of the door sill vent
holes in order to discover the best route for the coal hole sump pump
outflow pipe. The hoped for appearance of the drill bit through the
plasterboard that had been nailed to the hallway floor joists should
eliminate the guesswork involved at this stage of the project.

All in all, a rather frustrating afternoon. I rather doubt there'll be
any inverter gensets in stock for the Lidl staff to exchange with my
faulty unit tomorrow so it looks like I'll have to console myself with a
refund and keep on looking for my next inverter genset bargain.

If I'm going to have to spend a few hundred quid on a less marginally
rated inverter genset, I'll be opting for an electric start model after
all of the faff I had with pull starting that lightweight "Suitcase"
model today (the lack of mass doesn't help any when it comes to pull
starting these gensets).

Looking on the bright side, the coal hole still remains nice and dry. I
imagine I can still pump water from the sump standpipe but I'll wait
until I've finished the outflow plumbing job before running the pump
again.

--
Johnny B Good