On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

A look for the repurposed W/M drain pump on a piece of plywood that I
had used the last time this had happened over quarter of a century back
failed to reveal my makeshift solution to a problem I'd thought I'd well
and truly sorted out just a year or two after cobbling said emergency
cellar pump so I landed up having to resort to bailing it out into a
plastic bucket and hauling each bucket's worth up the steep stone steps
to hand to my XYL to tip out onto the drive.

Needless to say, this was rather exhausting work so I only lowered the
level by an inch or so to provide some respite against the rest of the
basement floor transitioning from being merely damp to becoming actually
submerged.

A few hours later, in the evening, our son finally emerged from his
'sick bed' (he was suffering from a cold of some sort - he didn't look
particularly ill to me but looks, as I well know, can be deceiving) and
offered to help bail out the basement using his "Wickes Wet 'n' Dry" 20L
vacuum cleaner which he'd parked in the drier part of the basement (and
which I hadn't realised was a "wet 'n' dry" cleaner).

Inconveniently, his offer of help, as per usual, was badly timed since I
was nicely settled in front of my PC monitor, watching the last 45
minutes of E4's "Night at The Museum" evening movie by way of
recuperation so I left him to deal with it, or not, on his own. He chose
not to wait so dealt with it on his own. After the movie was finished I
checked out his handiwork. The coal hole level was down to a few inch
deep puddles which needed further attention (the level had risen by a
half inch or so since he'd last vacuumed up the water about half an hour
earlier).

At this point, I needed him to explain the 'wet' usage of his old Wickes
wet 'n' dry cleaner so I could pump the sump dry. The sump consists of a
75mm plastic pipe concreted in place over a gravel filled sump hole at
the far end of the coal hole that I'd put in place over 25 years ago for
just such an eventuality. It had been hidden from his view by a stack of
heavy duty cardboard tray boxes. I managed to pump out another 60 litres
or so which he obligingly dumped each 20L canister's worth onto the
driveway saving me the 3 or 4 trips up our basement stairway.

This morning, the level had actually dropped a half inch from where it
had risen to some 3 hours after that last pumping out session when I
checked it just after midnight. I managed to pump another 30 or so litres
from the sump this time round suggesting that the local water table is
actually returning back to normality after Saturday's "Monsoon
Downpour" (according to my XYL - I never noticed such an event beyond the
day being a bit wet and rainy).

I guess the problem must have been due to abnormally high rainfall after
all rather than a failure in any of our waste water plumbing or roof
drainage so it looks like I really do need to fit an automatic sump pump
to complete the original project that I'd put on hold after completing
the initial speculative provision of a sump pick up point over quarter of
a century ago.

My problem at the moment is the total and utter failure of internet
search engines to find a local supplier of suitable cost effective *self
priming* sump pumps that don't rely on being submersible to function as
such[1]. I want a pump that I can hang onto the wall (or park on a shelf)
that will allow me to poke its inlet hose down the sump standpipe and
route the outlet hose through a hole in the wall onto the driveway to
pump some 20Lpm against a total of 3 to 5 metres maximum head of water
pressure.

I'm willing to shell out up to 100 quid on a neat, all-in-one readymade
solution but considering the effectiveness of that sub 50 quid wet 'n'
dry vacuum cleaner at extracting the water from the sump standpipe, I'm
half entertaining DIYing my own Franken-solution of adding a W/M pump to
the wet 'n' dry vacuum cleaner along with, if necessary, some electronic
switching logic to do the job "for free" (my son was quite willing to
'sacrifice' his old Wickes vacuum cleaner to the current task even if it
meant it 'blowing up' as a result of such 'abuse').

The reason why I'm only "half entertaining" such a DIY project is that
it would be more by way of metaphorically sticking two fingers up at "The
cellar sump pump industry" for being such a bunch of ****s in failing to
provide the obvious no brainer solution to my current problem since it
would absorb a considerable portion of my free time and energy
(basically, I'm a lazy sod).

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

--
Johnny B Good

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

A look for the repurposed W/M drain pump on a piece of plywood that I
had used the last time this had happened over quarter of a century back
failed to reveal my makeshift solution to a problem I'd thought I'd well
and truly sorted out just a year or two after cobbling said emergency
cellar pump so I landed up having to resort to bailing it out into a
plastic bucket and hauling each bucket's worth up the steep stone steps
to hand to my XYL to tip out onto the drive.

Needless to say, this was rather exhausting work so I only lowered the
level by an inch or so to provide some respite against the rest of the
basement floor transitioning from being merely damp to becoming actually
submerged.

A few hours later, in the evening, our son finally emerged from his
'sick bed' (he was suffering from a cold of some sort - he didn't look
particularly ill to me but looks, as I well know, can be deceiving) and
offered to help bail out the basement using his "Wickes Wet 'n' Dry" 20L
vacuum cleaner which he'd parked in the drier part of the basement (and
which I hadn't realised was a "wet 'n' dry" cleaner).

Inconveniently, his offer of help, as per usual, was badly timed since I
was nicely settled in front of my PC monitor, watching the last 45
minutes of E4's "Night at The Museum" evening movie by way of
recuperation so I left him to deal with it, or not, on his own. He chose
not to wait so dealt with it on his own. After the movie was finished I
checked out his handiwork. The coal hole level was down to a few inch
deep puddles which needed further attention (the level had risen by a
half inch or so since he'd last vacuumed up the water about half an hour
earlier).

At this point, I needed him to explain the 'wet' usage of his old Wickes
wet 'n' dry cleaner so I could pump the sump dry. The sump consists of a
75mm plastic pipe concreted in place over a gravel filled sump hole at
the far end of the coal hole that I'd put in place over 25 years ago for
just such an eventuality. It had been hidden from his view by a stack of
heavy duty cardboard tray boxes. I managed to pump out another 60 litres
or so which he obligingly dumped each 20L canister's worth onto the
driveway saving me the 3 or 4 trips up our basement stairway.

This morning, the level had actually dropped a half inch from where it
had risen to some 3 hours after that last pumping out session when I
checked it just after midnight. I managed to pump another 30 or so litres
from the sump this time round suggesting that the local water table is
actually returning back to normality after Saturday's "Monsoon
Downpour" (according to my XYL - I never noticed such an event beyond the
day being a bit wet and rainy).

I guess the problem must have been due to abnormally high rainfall after
all rather than a failure in any of our waste water plumbing or roof
drainage so it looks like I really do need to fit an automatic sump pump
to complete the original project that I'd put on hold after completing
the initial speculative provision of a sump pick up point over quarter of
a century ago.

My problem at the moment is the total and utter failure of internet
search engines to find a local supplier of suitable cost effective *self
priming* sump pumps that don't rely on being submersible to function as
such[1]. I want a pump that I can hang onto the wall (or park on a shelf)
that will allow me to poke its inlet hose down the sump standpipe and
route the outlet hose through a hole in the wall onto the driveway to
pump some 20Lpm against a total of 3 to 5 metres maximum head of water
pressure.

I'm willing to shell out up to 100 quid on a neat, all-in-one readymade
solution but considering the effectiveness of that sub 50 quid wet 'n'
dry vacuum cleaner at extracting the water from the sump standpipe, I'm
half entertaining DIYing my own Franken-solution of adding a W/M pump to
the wet 'n' dry vacuum cleaner along with, if necessary, some electronic
switching logic to do the job "for free" (my son was quite willing to
'sacrifice' his old Wickes vacuum cleaner to the current task even if it
meant it 'blowing up' as a result of such 'abuse').

The reason why I'm only "half entertaining" such a DIY project is that
it would be more by way of metaphorically sticking two fingers up at "The
cellar sump pump industry" for being such a bunch of ****s in failing to
provide the obvious no brainer solution to my current problem since it
would absorb a considerable portion of my free time and energy
(basically, I'm a lazy sod).

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

Would it not be cheaper to have some sort of alarm that goes off at a
certain level of water in the sump so you catch it before it floods and
then use the old vac to pump out.

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:57:23 +0100, ss wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

====snip long tale of basement flooding woes====

I'm willing to shell out up to 100 quid on a neat, all-in-one
readymade
solution but considering the effectiveness of that sub 50 quid wet 'n'
dry vacuum cleaner at extracting the water from the sump standpipe, I'm
half entertaining DIYing my own Franken-solution of adding a W/M pump
to the wet 'n' dry vacuum cleaner along with, if necessary, some
electronic switching logic to do the job "for free" (my son was quite
willing to 'sacrifice' his old Wickes vacuum cleaner to the current
task even if it meant it 'blowing up' as a result of such 'abuse').

The reason why I'm only "half entertaining" such a DIY project is
that
it would be more by way of metaphorically sticking two fingers up at
"The cellar sump pump industry" for being such a bunch of ****s in
failing to provide the obvious no brainer solution to my current
problem since it would absorb a considerable portion of my free time
and energy (basically, I'm a lazy sod).

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

Would it not be cheaper to have some sort of alarm that goes off at a
certain level of water in the sump so you catch it before it floods and
then use the old vac to pump out.

Cheaper it would be but I'd still be left with the rather onerous task
of having to haul out buckets of water besides the frequent 20L pumping
sessions with the "Wet 'n' Dry". At my age (the inverter genset and the
"Wet Basement Surprise" just happened to be my 68th birthday gifts - the
former being the 'treat', the latter an unwanted 'gift') I'd be far
happier to shell out a little extra for an alarm sensor with attached
sump pump to prevent miserable wet weather days becoming even more
miserable than they already are.

Incidentally, I've just remembered where in the basement I might have
dossed that makeshift pump - in the underfloor space accessible via a
hatchway into the side of the house not over the half basement area. I
might be able to, after double checking that my son's offer of a free Wet
'n' Dry vac is genuine, create a Franken sump pump by attaching a W/M
pump to the wet 'n' dry vac for free.

AFAICR, the wet 'n' dry vac simply stops sucking once the tub is full.
I'm not sure whether it'll automatically resume sucking when the level
drops since it has to be switched off and the top removed to tip it out
or to use it as a bailing out bucket but it might suffice for me merely
to plumb the W/M pump inlet into the cannister of the vac and leave this
Frankenstein contraption to its own devices.

In this case, a simple water level alarm and my proposed Frankenstein
creation might fit the bill nicely. However, I still prefer a more
permanent automated longer term fix to keeping the basement nice and dry
if I can find a reasonably priced all-in-one solution.

I realise that if my proposed wet 'n' dry vac with plumbed in W/M pump
solution were to work straight off the bat with no further complications
[2], I could easily add a level sensor to create a one off automated
basement pumping solution of my own unique design. :-)

[2] The suction on the W/M pump inlet might mandate the use of a relay to
shut off the vacuum on a 1 minute cyclic basis to allow the W/M pump a 30
or 40 seconds chance of pumping the cannister out to the level of the
driveway outlet some 3 or 4 foot higher.

I'd leave the W/M pump running continuously in this case to save having
to use a one way outflow valve between the cannister and the W/M pump
inlet. Hopefully, between the restriction of the water pump and its
modest in-air suction power, there'll still be enough suction on the sump
pick up hose to draw water into the cannister to cover the water pump
inlet to allow full vacuum to build up and fill the cannister before
shutting off to allow the water pump to empty out the cannister ready for
the next suction cycle.

If I'm really lucky, the vac's built in anti motor flood mechanism might
have enough hysteresis to avoid any such additional relay controlled
cycling. It's all down to a matter of experimentation which takes time
and effort, hence my desire to find a ready made solution.

--
Johnny B Good

In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:57:23 +0100, ss wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

====snip long tale of basement flooding woes====


Yes! Bought one of these for a one off job a few months ago worked very
well and I expect you could use it there you can buy either type of flat
or wire reinforced hose and various diameters for flow rates etc ..

Might need a more sophisticated on off pump switch but i expect you
could modify the fitted one if need be...


https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cse4...le-water-pump/


--
Tony Sayer

On 09/04/2018 22:23, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:57:23 +0100, ss wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

====snip long tale of basement flooding woes====


Yes! Bought one of these for a one off job a few months ago worked very
well and I expect you could use it there you can buy either type of flat
or wire reinforced hose and various diameters for flow rates etc ..

Might need a more sophisticated on off pump switch but i expect you
could modify the fitted one if need be...


https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cse4...le-water-pump/



Hmm, submersible, not self priming and only clean water.
I doubt if its what's wanted.

dennis@home wrote:

On 09/04/2018 22:23, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:57:23 +0100, ss wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

====snip long tale of basement flooding woes====


Yes! Bought one of these for a one off job a few months ago worked very
well and I expect you could use it there you can buy either type of flat
or wire reinforced hose and various diameters for flow rates etc ..

Might need a more sophisticated on off pump switch but i expect you
could modify the fitted one if need be...


https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cse4...le-water-pump/



Hmm, submersible, not self priming and only clean water.
I doubt if its what's wanted.

Most, if not all, submersible pumps are self-priming. It is of course
important that they don't switch on until sufficiently submerged, but
that is why it has float switch. I forget to mention in my other posts
about them that it may be important to check the attainable head, this
one is 8m which should be suitable for the OP. Some can cope with
debris up to the size of the water inlet slots, and this may be
important if the sump lining is imperfect.

--

Roger Hayter

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:23:19 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:57:23 +0100, ss wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from
our local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered
the coal hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to
flood the main part of the basement.

====snip long tale of basement flooding woes====


Yes! Bought one of these for a one off job a few months ago worked very
well and I expect you could use it there you can buy either type of flat
or wire reinforced hose and various diameters for flow rates etc ..

Might need a more sophisticated on off pump switch but i expect you
could modify the fitted one if need be...


https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cse4...le-water-pump/

Thanks for the link. It's pretty much the same as the 40 quid Titan
submersible currently on offer in Screwfix - same stupid float switch on
a flex idea. If I can't homebrew a better solution with a wet 'n' dry vac
and a seperate pump (possibly 2 or 3 W/M pumps in cascade), then it looks
like I'm going to have to destroy my rather neat sump standpipe setup and
install a cheap Titan pump.

--
Johnny B Good

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:24:38 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

AFAICR, the wet 'n' dry vac simply stops sucking once the tub is full.
I'm not sure whether it'll automatically resume sucking when the level
drops since it has to be switched off and the top removed to tip it out
or to use it as a bailing out bucket but it might suffice for me merely
to plumb the W/M pump inlet into the cannister of the vac and leave this
Frankenstein contraption to its own devices.

What head will the wet-n-dry suck?

If it is sufficient, you could use it to suck water up to the outside drain
level, do so until the tub is full, turn off the wet-n-dry, open a drain in the
tub, let the tub empty down a suitable hose, close drain, repeat. Before
discussing the best OS for the control system it would be good to know if the
head is sufficient, and if it is possible with the building constraints....


Thomas Prufer

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 09:07:35 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:24:38 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

AFAICR, the wet 'n' dry vac simply stops sucking once the tub is full.
I'm not sure whether it'll automatically resume sucking when the level
drops since it has to be switched off and the top removed to tip it out
or to use it as a bailing out bucket but it might suffice for me merely
to plumb the W/M pump inlet into the cannister of the vac and leave this
Frankenstein contraption to its own devices.

What head will the wet-n-dry suck?

If it is sufficient, you could use it to suck water up to the outside
drain level, do so until the tub is full, turn off the wet-n-dry, open a
drain in the tub, let the tub empty down a suitable hose, close drain,
repeat. Before discussing the best OS for the control system it would be
good to know if the head is sufficient, and if it is possible with the
building constraints....

I did give that option some consideration but the whole project has
become somewhat academic after this afternoon's "Fun 'n' Games" with our
foul water drain and my set of repurposed ex-BT duct rodding kit plus two
purchased sets of drain rodding kits (the problem is in a 16 metre run
down the drive from the main manhole at the top down to the "P Trap" near
the bottom which links into the main sewer line).

My lad had checked out the basement at 9am and it seemed ok then but,
when I checked it out just after high noon (1pm), it was even more
flooded than it had been on the Sunday afternoon! We'd had some rain but
not what I'd have called 'Monsoon' rainfall so there was obviously
something amiss with our drains despite the total absence any foul odours
from the basement. Sure enough, when we lifted the cover off the manhole
at the top of the drive, we saw that water was backed up from the
drainage pipe that runs under the drive to the P trap near the bottom
before it links to the main sewer pipe under the road.

It actually needs nine 2 metre latching duct rodding poles to rod the
drain through to the P trap from the main manhole. The screw fittings on
my makeshift 'drain rods' are smaller and don't match the larger threads
of standard drain rodding attachments so, 25 years or more back, I'd
sacrificed one of the 13 or so rods to solder the female connector into
the brasswork of a standard 4 inch rubber disk drain rod attachment so I
could use my thinner and more than double the length of the cheap, non-
locking drain rodding kit poles to unblock my drains.

Unfortunately, this time round the rubber disk met an immovable
obstruction 2 metres shy of the P trap, hence the decision to make do
with the crap grade drain rodding kits (TWO NEEDED since one wasn't
enough) so we (my son and I) could utilise the spiral claw grab (and the
folding scraper if required - it wasn't required) and with a little more
welly (but not much more since although the rods might have been fatter,
I suspect the plastic tube wall thickness is a lot thinner than the
quality BT stuff I was used to).

The only way I could rod beyond the obstruction was by removing the
rubber disk attachment which allowed another 2 metre rod length's worth
to pass. Unfortunately, my lad couldn't see any sign of it appearing at
the P trap, some ten feet down from the inspection access port. Nor could
he hear any disturbance (the end of the rod hitting the side of the P
trap or gurgling of water passing through the passageway left in the
obstruction after withdrawal of the rodding poles). Quite frankly, it was
a mystery as to where the end of that 16 metres worth of rodding
disappearing into the manhole drainage pipe was going.

My lad had the bright idea of using his Karcher pressure washer to spray
down the inspection access pipe to loosen up the blockage. I let him
despite the fact that he didn't have a 12 foot lance to apply the high
pressure spray to where it mattered, some ten foot or more down. Only
after all of that did we take a break to regroup and consider other means
of clearing the blockage(s).

Alternative tool attachments were considered (and bought by my son
despite my explaining that they wouldn't fit my set of ducting rods)
before we decided that the only way forward was to then buy TWO Drain
Rodding kits (since one was insufficient) so we could actually avail
ourselves of the additional tools without my having to sacrifice yet
another rod end to make up another adapter (and the need for a blow torch
to do the soldering).

So off my son goes, this time to Screwfix since our local Toolstation
was out of stock of drain rodding kits - they'd supplied my XYL with a
size 9 pair of wellies (£8.90) earlier in the day and my sprog with the
drop scraper 100mm and the double worm screw 50mm attachments (another
£4.35) he'd bought against my advice - to purchase the required rodding
kits (£47.98 the pair). Only then were we *finally* tooled up for some
serious drain rodding exercises (hard graft!).

First thing to try was the more promising looking double worm screw 50mm
attachment which we hitched up to both sets of rods. this hit the
obstruction and I screwed in the clockwise direction (being particularly
careful *never* to turn in an anti-clockwise direction - no latch
mechanism like my BT duct rodding kit to save losing rods down the drain!
).

This failed to grab more than a single "Flushable Wipe"[1] from the
'plug' in spite of several attempts. Thus wearied by such fruitlessness,
we turned our attention to the P Trap inspection shaft and here we had
more "Luck" (if you can call retrieving lumps of **** caked "Flushable
Wipes"[1] on the double worm screw 50mm attachment which you had to stand
on to unwind off the double worm screw 50mm attachment before attempting
another 'fishing expedition' 'Lucky').

Eventually, I had amassed a small and stinky collection of turd coated
bundles of "Flushable Wipes"[1] at the end of our drive after about half
an hour's worth of fishing before I decided to have another go with the
duct rods, initially with the disk attachment, then without, both times
without result.

My sprog, who had in the meantime carried on the fishing expedition at
the bottom of the drive, decided to lay off that task and see what I was
up to. He advised me to give it a rest just as I'd decided to withdraw
the unadorned duct rods for the the second time, shortly after which, I
heard a rumbling sound followed a few seconds later by the sight of the
water in the manhole dropping rapidly and finally clearing. By the time
we'd raced down to the P trap, the show was pretty well over.

We'd both had visions of being stuck on this Hopeless Task until
nightfall (it was just turned 6pm by then) so we were both very relieved
and pleased that the blockage(s) had finally submitted to all our hard
work (and expense!). All that was left to do was the tidying up of the
****ty mess on the end of the drive (a heavy duty plastic waste sack took
care of that) and the collection and rinsing off of the various tools and
restoration of the manhole cover and so on and we could finally clean
ourselves up and have a late tea just after 6:30pm.

The sprog finished vacuuming out the remaining water from the basement
so now it's just a matter of time (yet again!) before it dries out.
Hopefully, that's it for the next 25 years or so when, one way or
another, it'll be some other poor sod's problem.

I've decided not to bother with a sump pump after all of that - I've
already 'thrown' some 61 quid at the 'problem' and I don't see any
pressing need for a sump pump now that we know that any basement flooding
is proved beyond doubt to be a blocked foul water drainage issue that
we're now better tooled up to deal with (if dealt with in a timely
fashion that is!).

However, regarding your suggestion that the wet 'n' dry vac might be
able to lift the water all the way onto the driveway, I rather doubt it
could do. Although it managed to suck the water up a 3 foot standpipe
from some 4 foot or so down the pipe which did impress me, I strongly
suspect it won't be able to draw the water much higher than this and it
would have to raise the water another 4 or 5 feet to make your idea
feasible. As I said before, I did briefly consider such an option but it
just seemed so unlikely that it would be able to manage a total lift of
the 10 foot or so required for this task that I immediately discounted it.

[1] "Flushable Wipes" (and I can't stress this strongly enough) *aren't!*
You'd be well advised to totally discount any implication of "Flushable"
on the packaging of such toilet wipes as having any basis in 'Fact' and
treat them as you would "Disposable Nappies" (Diapers for our American
cousins), ie never *ever* to be flushed down any toilet drain.

--
Johnny B Good

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 00:42:30 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
[1] "Flushable Wipes" (and I can't stress this strongly enough) *aren't!*

I think most of us here will know that. The unanswered questions are (a) who flushed them (b) who allowed them into the house in the first place (c) are you able to sue the manufacturers of said products?

Owain

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 23:42:27 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

I've decided not to bother with a sump pump after all of that - I've
already 'thrown' some 61 quid at the 'problem' and I don't see any
pressing need for a sump pump now that we know that any basement flooding
is proved beyond doubt to be a blocked foul water drainage issue that
we're now better tooled up to deal with (if dealt with in a timely
fashion that is!).

Perhaps a cheap water alarm, though? three quid on ebay, beeps when two contacts
are wetted and if the battery is still good. It would give advance warning of
rising water.


However, regarding your suggestion that the wet 'n' dry vac might be
able to lift the water all the way onto the driveway, I rather doubt it
could do. Although it managed to suck the water up a 3 foot standpipe
from some 4 foot or so down the pipe which did impress me, I strongly
suspect it won't be able to draw the water much higher than this and it
would have to raise the water another 4 or 5 feet to make your idea
feasible. As I said before, I did briefly consider such an option but it
just seemed so unlikely that it would be able to manage a total lift of
the 10 foot or so required for this task that I immediately discounted it.

Likely true.

I did like the idea of a vac sucking up the water, shutting off, a Rube Goldberg
contraption opening and then closing a drain valve, and the vac slowly huffing
and puffing the water out, like some early condensation steam engine.

Thomas Prufer

Johnny B Good wrote:

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter or
so. E.g.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SURGEFLO-...cAAOxySE9Q7-vz

This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of
years ago for just over £50.

--
Chris Green
·

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:15:47 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter or
so. E.g.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SURGEFLO-...V-Marine-Boat-
Sanitary-Waste/162849834381?hash=item25ea9b458d:g:0mcAAOxySE9Q7-vz

This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of years
ago for just over £50.

The problem here is that I'd need to invest in a heavy duty 12v PSU for
a pump with a macerator feature I just don't need. I did try further
searching for self priming bilge pumps but I hit the same 12/24v PSU
problem.

The problem when searching for such tightly specified requirements is
that you tend to land up on manufacturers' websites rather than UK
suppliers' web sites and what few retailer sites you do find, they're all
American (or show dollar prices - same thing).

I've tried searching again and even the submersibles seem to be rather
****, especially those that rely on a cable linked float tilt switch
which require an oversized sump hole to accommodate their range of
movement. It looks more and more like my Franken-solution of vac with W/M
pump will be a better solution for my current setup. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:15:47 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter or
so. E.g.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SURGEFLO-...V-Marine-Boat-
Sanitary-Waste/162849834381?hash=item25ea9b458d:g:0mcAAOxySE9Q7-vz

This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of years
ago for just over £50.

The problem here is that I'd need to invest in a heavy duty 12v PSU for
a pump with a macerator feature I just don't need. I did try further
searching for self priming bilge pumps but I hit the same 12/24v PSU
problem.

The 12v output of a (cheap) PC power supply would probably handle it.

--
Chris Green
·

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 14:38:55 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:15:47 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon
the potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this
group for advice.

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter
or so. E.g.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SURGEFLO-...MP-12V-Marine-
Boat-
Sanitary-Waste/162849834381?hash=item25ea9b458d:g:0mcAAOxySE9Q7-vz

This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of
years ago for just over £50.

The problem here is that I'd need to invest in a heavy duty 12v PSU
for
a pump with a macerator feature I just don't need. I did try further
searching for self priming bilge pumps but I hit the same 12/24v PSU
problem.

The 12v output of a (cheap) PC power supply would probably handle it.

Not really unless you're prepared to max out the 3.3 and 5 volt rail
loadings to get more than 11.5 volts out of the 12v rail(s).

In any case, the sump pump requirement, as you will see from my other
post about Tuesday's adventure, has become somewhat academic I'm finally
glad to say. However, thank you (and everyone else) for the various
suggestions.

If nothing else, I'm now all too painfully aware that the cheapest sump
pump option will require a rather deep sump hole to drop a submersible
pump into. Trying to locate a quality self priming pump that doesn't need
total submergence into an oversized sump hole is like trying to buy
rocking horse ****. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 14:38:55 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:15:47 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon
the potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this
group for advice.

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter
or so. E.g.:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SURGEFLO-...MP-12V-Marine-
Boat-
Sanitary-Waste/162849834381?hash=item25ea9b458d:g:0mcAAOxySE9Q7-vz

This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of
years ago for just over £50.

The problem here is that I'd need to invest in a heavy duty 12v PSU
for
a pump with a macerator feature I just don't need. I did try further
searching for self priming bilge pumps but I hit the same 12/24v PSU
problem.

The 12v output of a (cheap) PC power supply would probably handle it.

Not really unless you're prepared to max out the 3.3 and 5 volt rail
loadings to get more than 11.5 volts out of the 12v rail(s).

Ay? I use a PC power supply as a general purpose supply and can load
the 12v output quite a bit without any load on the other outputs.

--
Chris Green
·

In article , johnny-b-
says...


If nothing else, I'm now all too painfully aware that the
cheapest sump pump option will require a rather deep sump
hole to drop a submersible pump into. Trying to locate a
quality self priming pump that doesn't need total
submergence into an oversized sump hole is like trying to
buy rocking horse ****. :-(

Strange. The Hippo I referred to doesn't need to be fully
submerged or anything like it. So long as the water covers the
3mm gap at the bottom it just works!

Probably the closest it has come to being submerged was when
we came back from holiday once and my wife found about 9" of
water at the foot of the cellar stairs. It turned out there
been a burst water main in the road outside and our neighbour
said it had taken five days to persuade the water company to
come and fix it!

Fortunately, the pump was ready for use, as always, so hose
out of the coal hole and plug into mains and wait until it was
safe to go down in the cellar and turn the gas and water back
on again. Fortunately, because of the fridge/freezer, we
didn't turn the electricity off!

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snipped

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?


A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought
one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible
warning of a frozen outlet.

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snipped

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?


A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.


Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought
one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible
warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch. However,
I've since seen other references about "Not suitable for permanent
installation." where they clearly mean not suited for continuous
operation as pond pumps. Considering their most common sump pump usage,
that's a surprising way to describe their unsuitability for continuous
pond recirculation duty when you don't want to put prospective sump pump
purchasers off.

I noticed that Screwfix are selling a Titan submersible pump, complete
with the same ridiculous float switch dangling off the end of a mains
flex which requires the diameter of the sump to be double that of the
pump body itself simply to accommodate its range of movement. The
attraction in this case being its low price of 40 quid.

If I *have* to dig out my rather neat sump standpipe, then it might as
well be for this pump than for its more expensive but equally
pathetically designed automatic float switch operation models. I'm hoping
my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My Franken-
solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search for a
suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be sufficient but
given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips, I'm sure I can
cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snipped

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?


A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.


Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought
one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible
warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch. However,
I've since seen other references about "Not suitable for permanent
installation." where they clearly mean not suited for continuous
operation as pond pumps. Considering their most common sump pump usage,
that's a surprising way to describe their unsuitability for continuous
pond recirculation duty when you don't want to put prospective sump pump
purchasers off.

I noticed that Screwfix are selling a Titan submersible pump, complete
with the same ridiculous float switch dangling off the end of a mains
flex which requires the diameter of the sump to be double that of the
pump body itself simply to accommodate its range of movement. The
attraction in this case being its low price of 40 quid.

If I *have* to dig out my rather neat sump standpipe, then it might as
well be for this pump than for its more expensive but equally
pathetically designed automatic float switch operation models. I'm hoping
my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My Franken-
solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search for a
suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be sufficient but
given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips, I'm sure I can
cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

How about this one? Float needs little area and is protected. Perhaps
marginal 5m head.

https://www.anchorpumps.com/grundfos...be-floatswitch

This one is cheaper and has 6.9m head but the float is less well
protected, would need the pump to be fixed by either rigid pipe or
perhaps tied to the wall of sump.

https://www.anchorpumps.com/lowara-d...oatswitch-240v

May well be similar around, try "tube floatswitch" as a search term.




--

Roger Hayter

On 10/04/2018 00:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snipped

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?


A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.

Hefty? A wall wart will give you 2 amps, which will drive one of the
small pumps. It's not as if you need a huge flow rate.



Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought
one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible
warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch. However,
I've since seen other references about "Not suitable for permanent
installation." where they clearly mean not suited for continuous
operation as pond pumps. Considering their most common sump pump usage,
that's a surprising way to describe their unsuitability for continuous
pond recirculation duty when you don't want to put prospective sump pump
purchasers off.

I noticed that Screwfix are selling a Titan submersible pump, complete
with the same ridiculous float switch dangling off the end of a mains
flex which requires the diameter of the sump to be double that of the
pump body itself simply to accommodate its range of movement. The
attraction in this case being its low price of 40 quid.

If I *have* to dig out my rather neat sump standpipe, then it might as
well be for this pump than for its more expensive but equally
pathetically designed automatic float switch operation models. I'm hoping
my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My Franken-
solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search for a
suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be sufficient but
given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips, I'm sure I can
cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

I have to confess the Franken-solution has a certain appeal to me too :-)

On Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:14:25 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 10/04/2018 00:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:49:34 +0100, newshound wrote:

====snip====

A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump
pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady
state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float
switch.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v
power supply.

Hefty? A wall wart will give you 2 amps, which will drive one of the
small pumps. It's not as if you need a huge flow rate.

It's true that I need a modest flow rate that can be sustained
sufficiently to outpace the rising water level but even the modest 16.5
litres per minute at a 50% duty cycle of the small 12vdc pump that I did
land up buying from MachineMart today claims a 4.5A requirement (which I
thought was quite modest). Since I already had a 13.5v 10A smpsu to hand,
along with a 12AH SLA in serviceable condition, it seemed worth taking a
punt at a mere £20.39. :-)

TBH, I doubt a small enough pump to keep the current demand within the
2A limit of a 12v wallwart would be up to the job. However, despite my
original rejection of your advice, I reconsidered it in the light of the
specs shown in the manual I downloaded this afternoon (one of many such
pdfs btw) and bought this pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cl-msp12-pump-kit12v/?instore=Liverpool

which slides rather neatly down my sump standpipe.

I just need to extend its supplied 3 metre outlet hose another 10 metres
to pump out from the standpipe location to out of the backdoor. All I
could manage this afternoon was a basic test on the more accessible coal
hole puddles which suggests that it's likely to suffice for the job in
hand.


Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just
bought one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early
audible warning of a frozen outlet.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water
level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch.

That's going to be a project for another day. The problem with using
electrodes dipping into the water to detect the level, as one sump pump
manufacturer demonstrated to its trusting customers, is the risk of false
detection due to water film bridging across the electrode insulator.

A float operated sensor is more reliable if designed carefully or else
the use of a pressure sensor as used by the washing machine manufacturers
can prove an effective alternative. I'll probably pick the simplest to
implement, a simple float operated switch, but it depends on how complex
a controller I decide to fabricate. I need not only to prevent dry
running but also to limit the duty cycle to a max of 15 minutes per half
hour of run time with this pump so there'll likely be some electronics
involved that otherwise wouldn't have existed which would have made the
float operated microswitch the obvious solution.


I'm hoping my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My
Franken- solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search
for a suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be
sufficient but given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips,
I'm sure I can cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

I have to confess the Franken-solution has a certain appeal to me too
:-)

I did find the W/M pump but not assembled onto a board as I seemed to
recall, just the bare pump and its inlet hose. TBH, it was all starting
to look a more fiddly job than I CBA to spend time on, hence my
continuing search for a ready made solution, culminating in the purchase
of that Clarke MSP12 - 12 Submersible Transfer Pump that I discovered as
a 'Sale Item' on MachineMart's website earlier today (Friday).

As a "Thought Experiment" it was all 'Fine on Paper' but quite frankly,
I didn't have enough motivation to spend any time on translating it into
actual hardware. In the end, it was your suggestion that won the day,
even if it was in a round about way (and tipped by the sale price of the
pump in MachineMart).

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

Lots of permanently submersible pumps with various duty cycles at:


https://www.anchorpumps.com/


Not sure that they are very cheap, but I have found them reliable and
helpful.

--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

Lots of permanently submersible pumps with various duty cycles at:


https://www.anchorpumps.com/


Not sure that they are very cheap, but I have found them reliable and
helpful.

PS, I don't know the base area of your sump, but for the lever floats to
work you need quite a big area *and* a way of stopping the pump walking
about on the base. I used a nice stainless steel Grundfos one with a
float in a tube, Grundfos Unilift KP 150-AV-1, which cost about four
times your max. But then I wanted our shower to work without fail daily
for many years, so I think I was justifed. There are probably good
quality ones, possibly plastic, which would be cheaper. My concern,
especially if the sump gets some water in it without actually reaching
the pumping level that gunge would build up and block the float, and I
would advise at least monthly tests with a hose pipe.

--

Roger Hayter

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:03:31 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

Lots of permanently submersible pumps with various duty cycles at:


https://www.anchorpumps.com/


Not sure that they are very cheap, but I have found them reliable and
helpful.





--
Johnny B Good

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:03:31 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

Lots of permanently submersible pumps with various duty cycles at:


https://www.anchorpumps.com/


Not sure that they are very cheap, but I have found them reliable and
helpful.

That's just a **** poor description against their use as permanently
running pond recirculation pumps.

--
Johnny B Good

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
ce.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the
description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about
each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug
off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?


Just replaced a 5 year old Draper dirty water pump (as per Toolstation
pg 121) that has spent 5 years stood in a puddle of water. However the
amount of water this on has pumped out is quite a bit. It took 3 days
non stop pumping to clear the last lot of rain water.

--
Adam

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:20:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote:
ce.

[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs
must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on
page 121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to
what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation."
implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't
chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're
simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water
indefinitely in between pumping sessions?


Just replaced a 5 year old Draper dirty water pump (as per Toolstation
pg 121) that has spent 5 years stood in a puddle of water. However the
amount of water this on has pumped out is quite a bit. It took 3 days
non stop pumping to clear the last lot of rain water.

Thanks for that info. I've since come to realise that it was a ****
description against using them as continuously running pond recirculation
pumps. :-(

Some models advise allowing a ten minute rest per hour's worth of run
time so you need to check out their specifications in detail to make sure
you don't fall foul of their warranty's Ts & Cs.

If I do manage to find my emergency pump (I've got an idea where I
dossed it away some 25 years ago), I'll run some tests before adapting it
to the vac. There's no sense in destroying a perfectly good wet 'n' dry
vac if the project is doomed from the start.

If I can't get enough head from the one pump, cascading another W/M pump
or two might solve that problem (assuming I can scavenge them from
scrapped washing machines) or else I might do better to use a dishwasher
pump instead - I think they're a more powerful pump considering that they
provide the necessary energy to rotate the spray arms and jet wash the
dishes.

However, I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm going to land up doing
what everyone else in my position has had to do and dig out a pump sized
sump hole to chuck a cheap 'n' cheerful submersible pump into. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

If you do need a high power 12V supply, look at server power
supplies on eBay. Power outputs of 5000W to over 1kW at 12V
can be bought for a reasonable price.
John

On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:44:31 -0700, jrwalliker wrote:

If you do need a high power 12V supply, look at server power supplies on
eBay. Power outputs of 5000W to over 1kW at 12V can be bought for a
reasonable price.
John

This Tuesday's adventure has made the whole project somewhat academic
now.

--
Johnny B Good

On 10/04/2018 01:45, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:20:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

Some models advise allowing a ten minute rest per hour's worth of run
time so you need to check out their specifications in detail to make sure
you don't fall foul of their warranty's Ts & Cs.


I did wonder about that. I also wondered where all the water went on the
one I replaced...

So this pump is probably pumping out say 100l/m

https://www.drapertools.com/products...s/25360ins.pdf

as is not pumping as high as 1.5m and it ran for just over 3 days solid.
Now if I am correct that is 432000 litres of water or 432 cu m of water
that went somewhere. That's just short of a fifth of the contents of an
Olympic swimming pool.



--
Adam

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 18:52:02 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 10/04/2018 01:45, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:20:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

Some models advise allowing a ten minute rest per hour's worth of run
time so you need to check out their specifications in detail to make
sure you don't fall foul of their warranty's Ts & Cs.


I did wonder about that. I also wondered where all the water went on the
one I replaced...

So this pump is probably pumping out say 100l/m

https://www.drapertools.com/products...s/25360ins.pdf

as is not pumping as high as 1.5m and it ran for just over 3 days solid.
Now if I am correct that is 432000 litres of water or 432 cu m of water
that went somewhere. That's just short of a fifth of the contents of an
Olympic swimming pool.

I'm guessing you were trying to lower the local water table. Where were
you pumping it out to? Perhaps its output was contributing to the local
water table via some cunningly hidden route? To misquote, "We're gonna
need a longer hose."

--
Johnny B Good

In article , johnny-b-
says...

...or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table
is high - usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a
plain to the north of us which was riddled with gravel
extraction pits and took its time to reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire
place but, when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't
pump below about 18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a
Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left
running after the water has all gone without damage. No float
switch so has to be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which
made it the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole
was only a few feet away and the cover had a convenient bar
running across the underside so I put a couple to tie-wraps
together to anchor the hose pipe to (I originally used rope
but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The mains cable
was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first
to notice the water rising so the plan of action was to wait
for the water to get near the cellar stairs (slight upward
slope) at which point it was worthwhile running the pump. Open
coal hole and lift out the hose, the cast iron lid ensuring
that it didn't try and get back down the hole again, open
cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in the
hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle,
then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug
pump, replace mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid.
Finished!

This looks like the pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hipp...ersible-water-
pump/


or: https://tinyurl.com/hippo-pump

although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or
so years ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking
inflation into consideration.


It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move -
never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we
no longer have a cellar!)

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Terry Casey Wrote in message:
In article , johnny-b-
says...

...or does it mean they're simply not able to
withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping
sessions?

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table
is high - usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a
plain to the north of us which was riddled with gravel
extraction pits and took its time to reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire
place but, when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't
pump below about 18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a
Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left
running after the water has all gone without damage. No float
switch so has to be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which
made it the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole
was only a few feet away and the cover had a convenient bar
running across the underside so I put a couple to tie-wraps
together to anchor the hose pipe to (I originally used rope
but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The mains cable
was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first
to notice the water rising so the plan of action was to wait
for the water to get near the cellar stairs (slight upward
slope) at which point it was worthwhile running the pump. Open
coal hole and lift out the hose, the cast iron lid ensuring
that it didn't try and get back down the hole again, open
cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in the
hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle,
then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug
pump, replace mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid.
Finished!

This looks like the pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hipp...ersible-water-
pump/


or: https://tinyurl.com/hippo-pump

although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or
so years ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking
inflation into consideration.


It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move -
never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we
no longer have a cellar!)

Standby for the offer to rehome... ;-)


--
Jim K

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 18:02:13 +0100, Terry Casey wrote:

In article , johnny-b-
says...

...or does it mean they're simply not able to withstand being sat in a
puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table is high -
usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a plain to the north
of us which was riddled with gravel extraction pits and took its time to
reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire place but,
when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't pump below about
18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left running
after the water has all gone without damage. No float switch so has to
be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which made it
the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole was only a few feet
away and the cover had a convenient bar running across the underside so
I put a couple to tie-wraps together to anchor the hose pipe to (I
originally used rope but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The
mains cable was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first to notice
the water rising so the plan of action was to wait for the water to get
near the cellar stairs (slight upward slope) at which point it was
worthwhile running the pump. Open coal hole and lift out the hose, the
cast iron lid ensuring that it didn't try and get back down the hole
again, open cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in the
hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle,
then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug pump, replace
mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid. Finished!

This looks like the pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hipp...ersible-water- pump/


or: https://tinyurl.com/hippo-pump

although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or so years
ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking inflation into
consideration.


It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move -
never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we no longer
have a cellar!)

Although the need for a pump has been rendered academic after Tuesday's
drain rodding adventures, I do appreciate your suggestion. What's
particularly appealing about this pump is the fact that, unlike pretty
well all the other pumps I'd been considering, it doesn't need total
immersion to prime itself, just a mere half inch deep puddle of water
suffices in this case!

I'd say that was a major plus point to anyone contemplating a less
onerous means than a bailing and bucket brigade solution to an
occasionally flooding cellar. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 00:13:33 +0000, Johnny B Good wrote:

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 18:02:13 +0100, Terry Casey wrote:

In article , johnny-b-
says...

...or does it mean they're simply not able to withstand being sat in a
puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table is high -
usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a plain to the north
of us which was riddled with gravel extraction pits and took its time
to reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire place but,
when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't pump below about
18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left running
after the water has all gone without damage. No float switch so has to
be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which made it
the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole was only a few feet
away and the cover had a convenient bar running across the underside so
I put a couple to tie-wraps together to anchor the hose pipe to (I
originally used rope but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The
mains cable was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first to
notice the water rising so the plan of action was to wait for the water
to get near the cellar stairs (slight upward slope) at which point it
was worthwhile running the pump. Open coal hole and lift out the hose,
the cast iron lid ensuring that it didn't try and get back down the
hole again, open cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in
the hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle,
then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug pump, replace
mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid. Finished!

This looks like the pump:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/hipp...ersible-water- pump/


or: https://tinyurl.com/hippo-pump

although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or so years
ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking inflation into
consideration.


It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move -
never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we no longer
have a cellar!)

Although the need for a pump has been rendered academic after Tuesday's
drain rodding adventures, I do appreciate your suggestion. What's
particularly appealing about this pump is the fact that, unlike pretty
well all the other pumps I'd been considering, it doesn't need total
immersion to prime itself, just a mere half inch deep puddle of water
suffices in this case!

I'd say that was a major plus point to anyone contemplating a less
onerous means than a bailing and bucket brigade solution to an
occasionally flooding cellar. :-)

I was on the point of buying the Hippo pump from our local MachineMart
on Friday but did my usual 'last minute browse' on their website to make
sure there wasn't a better alternative I'd failed to spot which resulted
in my purchasing that 12v submersible pump kit that would (and does!) fit
into my sump standpipe. There wasn't enough hose for me to pump from the
standpipe out to the backdoor so I was only able to test it on the more
accessible puddles which proved it was up to the job.

This morning, my son discovered that the coal hole had completely
drained out. When I looked at it just after 1pm, even the 'mini-sumplet'
next to the entrance showed only a moist looking muddy bottom. I've no
doubt I could pump out another 50 or 60 litres from the sump stand pipe
if I cared to try but without a 10 metre hose extension, there's not a
lot of point (I don't fancy running another bucket chain).

I was planning on buying a 10 metre coil of 1 inch garden hose today
(Saturday) to allow me to pump the sump out to the back door but I got
roped into supervising my sprog's offer of help in clearing out the
(largely) rotting collection of 'valuable junk' that was cluttering up
the coal hole. As a result, he chauffeured 2 loads of 'junk' to the tip
and I never made it to our local Lidl/Aldi to buy the hosepipe.

With the coal hole finally properly dry, I've decided to have a go at
installing a more direct and permanent drain hose route instead of buying
more hosepipe to take the water out of the backdoor.

There's a good chance it'll be dry enough this afternoon (Sunday) for me
to probe one of the front door threshold vent holes with a long masonry
bit attached to my ancient B&D drill. With luck, it should poke through
the plasterboard sheeting that was nailed to the underside of the hallway
entrance joists over the coal hole which should provide a guide as to how
best to route the final length of 15mm copper pipe outlet to which to
attach the pump's flexible hose. Hopefully, I can avoid drilling a 3/4
inch hole through 18 inches' worth of Victorian brickwork and do the job
'smarter, not harder'. :-)

Sod's Law decrees that I'll never suffer another flood once I have an
effective 'no fuss' solution in place (it'll be merely a matter of
lowering the pump into the sump pipe and switching it on once I've sorted
out a fixed and direct route for the drain hose). I can sort out a sump
level sensor at my leisure, along with a simple controller to operate the
pump on a strict 50% duty cycle (15 minute on/15 minutes rest) as well as
avoid dry running.

I won't be leaving the pump permanently installed in the sump pipe in
order to avoid premature failure since the user guide/manual advises that
it be stored clean and dry between sessions of use. It might be rated for
total immersion but I suspect indefinite periods of total immersion for
months at a time might finally prove too much of a strain on its
waterproof seals so I'll not be taking any chances in its care and
maintenance. It's only a 'cheap solution' if you don't have to buy a new
pump every 12 months or so.

This is the penultimate episode in my 'basement pump saga'. I'll post a
final 'episode' after I've finished the permanent installation as per the
above plan and report my results, hopefully in the next day or two.

--
Johnny B Good

On 09-Apr-18 7:13 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051012200/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051011800/

This one needs initial priming but with a one way "foot valve" to stop
it draining back it doesn't need further priming. Problem is if water is
dirty it can be trapped in foot valve and allow the suction pipe to
drain. Also dirty water may wear the plastic impeller. So the foot valve
also needs a filter.
https://www.anchorpumps.com/stuart-t...ster-pump-240v

Centrifugal pump can not be "self priming". It needs a piston/diaphragm
or helical. Piston/diaphragm pumps will have simple one way delivery
valves and can't pump dirty water.

Proper dirty water self priming is not cheap.
https://www.anglianpumping.com/produ...AjJQEALw_ wcB

On Sun, 15 Apr 2018 10:50:09 +0100, Peter Hill wrote:

On 09-Apr-18 7:13 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)
15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our
local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal
hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the
main part of the basement.

snip

Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution
(source
of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the
potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for
advice.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051012200/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051011800/

I was looking at those last Friday before I decided to take a punt on
their 12 volt 'special' for a mere £20.39 (Clarke MSP12 - 12V Submersible
Transfer Pump) which proved to be adequate for my particular problem.


This one needs initial priming but with a one way "foot valve" to stop
it draining back it doesn't need further priming. Problem is if water is
dirty it can be trapped in foot valve and allow the suction pipe to
drain. Also dirty water may wear the plastic impeller. So the foot valve
also needs a filter.

It was the need for the foot valve and other accessories that made the
12v pump so attractive - practically everything I need for my planned
installation apart from a yard or so's worth of 15mm copper outflow pipe
to direct the water out onto my driveway next to the front door step
almost immediately above my sump standpipe.

https://www.anchorpumps.com/stuart-t...r-centrifugal-
booster-pump-240v

Not at all suitable for pumping out a basement sump. That's intended for
boosting shower water pressure and the like.


Centrifugal pump can not be "self priming". It needs a piston/diaphragm
or helical. Piston/diaphragm pumps will have simple one way delivery
valves and can't pump dirty water.

Proper dirty water self priming is not cheap.
https://www.anglianpumping.com/produ...mono-cms-400v-
water-pump?
gclid=Cj0KCQjw8MvWBRC8ARIsAOFSVBUNqfX5NZAEk8vMJGZ8 v8bUcA_By1f8HvxtXEzcoLoUE8QyicjqOTwaAjJQEALw_wcB

Blimey! You weren't kidding about it not being cheap! That works out at
a smidgen more than 23 times the price I paid for the 12v pump!

I was hoping I could make a start on installing the outflow pipe section
this afternoon but the weather took a turn for the worse by the time I'd
bought myself 5 litres of unleaded to fuel up the inverter genset, dosed
the sump with the required 250ml of 10W-40 oil and set it up for a test
run only to discover it was faulty (possibly due to an overload from the
PF correction inductor I'd forgotten to disconnect from the feed cable
running from the back door down into the basement).

I had my lad help me start the genny (I'm finding it very hard work to
yank on a starter cord these days - mind you, even 15 years ago it was
hard work trying to start a cheap, temperamental two stroke 720W petrol
generator so no great surprise there). As things turned out we found
ourselves having to restart it several times to reset the "Overvolt" trip
before discovering it was tripping out all by itself (no lead plugged
into its singular 13A outlet socket) within a few seconds of each start
up.

The second restart to reset the initial overload from the dozen or so
400VA transformer primaries I'd been using as a PF correction inductor
for the previous 2.8KVA genset (and forgotten to disconnect), provided a
few second's worth of power for the UPS to pass through to the load
before cutting out, never to reset the overvolt alarm thereafter.

Unfortunately, by the time I'd drained the oil and fuel to return it, it
had gone 4 O'clock, Lidl's Sunday closing time. Not only that but the
weather had turned showery making it a little dangerous to be using a
mains voltage electric drill outside in order to probe under the hallway
floorboards with a long masonry drill bit via one of the door sill vent
holes in order to discover the best route for the coal hole sump pump
outflow pipe. The hoped for appearance of the drill bit through the
plasterboard that had been nailed to the hallway floor joists should
eliminate the guesswork involved at this stage of the project.

All in all, a rather frustrating afternoon. I rather doubt there'll be
any inverter gensets in stock for the Lidl staff to exchange with my
faulty unit tomorrow so it looks like I'll have to console myself with a
refund and keep on looking for my next inverter genset bargain.

If I'm going to have to spend a few hundred quid on a less marginally
rated inverter genset, I'll be opting for an electric start model after
all of the faff I had with pull starting that lightweight "Suitcase"
model today (the lack of mass doesn't help any when it comes to pull
starting these gensets).

Looking on the bright side, the coal hole still remains nice and dry. I
imagine I can still pump water from the sump standpipe but I'll wait
until I've finished the outflow plumbing job before running the pump
again.

--
Johnny B Good