On Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:55:04 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:18:35 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 31/12/2017 05:02, tabbypurr wrote:

The faster the wind blows, the faster heat is transferred from
ambient to the water in the clothes. I've subjected clothes to some
pretty strong winds and afaik they've not frozen. I suppose if they
did they'd thaw again almost instantly.

You haven't pegged them out on a line in January when its 1C then.
They freeze if its windy.

And of course at those thresholds it's a vicious circle. Increase the
wind speed and whilst that increases the amount of low level energy to
help the evaporation process, it also increases the evaporation
process that increases the chill factor (latent heat of vaporisation)
and in turn lowering the temperature in the water in the clothes.

So what we need is some way to heat some more heat energy into the
clothes to keep the temperature up and make them dry faster, even when
it's cold outside. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

High airspeed at 1C means any frosting will be thawed out rapidly. But no-one runs TDs at 1C afaik.


NT

On 31/12/2017 12:53, wrote:
On Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:18:40 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 31/12/2017 05:02, tabbypurr wrote:

The faster the wind blows, the faster heat is transferred from
ambient to the water in the clothes. I've subjected clothes to some
pretty strong winds and afaik they've not frozen. I suppose if they
did they'd thaw again almost instantly.

You haven't pegged them out on a line in January when its 1C then.
They freeze if its windy.

I expect we've all done that. It's of no relevance though.


No its just proof that what you said isn't true!

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:32:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

So, if you were to blow air though a (moving?)
container of clothes, what would stop them cooling
down to the point where they could freeze?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

They do.

Nope.

I've had my Peltier cooler freeze many a time.

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Worse if you were recycling the air?

Nope, because once the air is saturated, it
doesn't evaporate any more from the clothes.

Ok, so it might snow instead. ;-)

Given both of our de-humidifiers (working on the same
principal of a liquid evaporating cooling a surface) often
go into defrost mode if they are in an unheated room in the
winter, what is to stop the clothes simply freezing up, if you
don't introduce heat energy into the system to stop that?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

But they do. See, you may simply be isolating your survey to one, 'Rod
in Auz' but if you consider most Peltier coolers are able to reduce
the temperature on the cold side to -20 DegC below ambient then if we
had one on here when it was even 15 Degrees outside (that's summer for
us g) then it would be -5 Degrees C in the cooler (and that's below
freezing in my world)?

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

I don't know the answers,

That's obvious.

I'm just asking the questions? ;-)

Stoppit at once or go to your room, boy.

On Sunday, 31 December 2017 13:02:43 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 31/12/2017 12:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:18:40 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 31/12/2017 05:02, tabbypurr wrote:

The faster the wind blows, the faster heat is transferred from
ambient to the water in the clothes. I've subjected clothes to some
pretty strong winds and afaik they've not frozen. I suppose if they
did they'd thaw again almost instantly.

You haven't pegged them out on a line in January when its 1C then.
They freeze if its windy.

I expect we've all done that. It's of no relevance though.


No its just proof that what you said isn't true!

oh dear

On Sunday, 31 December 2017 18:34:37 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:32:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

So, if you were to blow air though a (moving?)
container of clothes, what would stop them cooling
down to the point where they could freeze?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

They do.

Nope.

I've had my Peltier cooler freeze many a time.

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Worse if you were recycling the air?

Nope, because once the air is saturated, it
doesn't evaporate any more from the clothes.

Ok, so it might snow instead. ;-)

Given both of our de-humidifiers (working on the same
principal of a liquid evaporating cooling a surface) often
go into defrost mode if they are in an unheated room in the
winter, what is to stop the clothes simply freezing up, if you
don't introduce heat energy into the system to stop that?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

But they do. See, you may simply be isolating your survey to one, 'Rod
in Auz' but if you consider most Peltier coolers are able to reduce
the temperature on the cold side to -20 DegC below ambient then if we
had one on here when it was even 15 Degrees outside (that's summer for
us g) then it would be -5 Degrees C in the cooler (and that's below
freezing in my world)?

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Rod gets something right. What is it, 1 time out of 100?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, 31 December 2017 18:34:37 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:32:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

So, if you were to blow air though a (moving?)
container of clothes, what would stop them cooling
down to the point where they could freeze?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

They do.

Nope.

I've had my Peltier cooler freeze many a time.

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Worse if you were recycling the air?

Nope, because once the air is saturated, it
doesn't evaporate any more from the clothes.

Ok, so it might snow instead. ;-)

Given both of our de-humidifiers (working on the same
principal of a liquid evaporating cooling a surface) often
go into defrost mode if they are in an unheated room in the
winter, what is to stop the clothes simply freezing up, if you
don't introduce heat energy into the system to stop that?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

But they do. See, you may simply be isolating your survey to one, 'Rod
in Auz' but if you consider most Peltier coolers are able to reduce
the temperature on the cold side to -20 DegC below ambient then if we
had one on here when it was even 15 Degrees outside (that's summer for
us g) then it would be -5 Degrees C in the cooler (and that's below
freezing in my world)?

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Rod gets something right. What is it, 1 time out of 100?

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, 31 December 2017 18:34:37 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:32:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

So, if you were to blow air though a (moving?)
container of clothes, what would stop them cooling
down to the point where they could freeze?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

They do.

Nope.

I've had my Peltier cooler freeze many a time.

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Worse if you were recycling the air?

Nope, because once the air is saturated, it
doesn't evaporate any more from the clothes.

Ok, so it might snow instead. ;-)

Given both of our de-humidifiers (working on the same
principal of a liquid evaporating cooling a surface) often
go into defrost mode if they are in an unheated room in the
winter, what is to stop the clothes simply freezing up, if you
don't introduce heat energy into the system to stop that?

Same thing that never sees camping coolers freeze.

But they do. See, you may simply be isolating your survey to one, 'Rod
in Auz' but if you consider most Peltier coolers are able to reduce
the temperature on the cold side to -20 DegC below ambient then if we
had one on here when it was even 15 Degrees outside (that's summer for
us g) then it would be -5 Degrees C in the cooler (and that's below
freezing in my world)?

Those arent the ones cooling by evaporation of the water.

Rod gets something right. What is it, 1 time out of 100?

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler
box that works by the evaporation of water

Yep, and what I use to cool my entire house does too.

because I haven't? shrug

Then you need to get out more, as usual.

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and
I've used / made my own impromptu ones for some milk or
beer when camping but I've never seen a commercial one.

Then you need to get out more, as usual.

Not saying they don't exist ...

Just as well.

On Monday, 1 January 2018 00:03:07 UTC, T i m wrote:

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

evaporative coolers are well known technology. The amount of cooling is limited.


NT

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:13:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 1 January 2018 00:03:07 UTC, T i m wrote:

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

evaporative coolers are well known technology.

Yes, I know, but we are talking specifically about 'evaporative cooler
boxes' here. Have you ever had / seen one?

The amount of cooling is limited.

They also use it to cool the air near fountains and my mate had an
electric fan that sprayed a mist of water into the air in front of it
and that worked ok.

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 1 January 2018 01:51:16 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:13:28 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 1 January 2018 00:03:07 UTC, T i m wrote:

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

evaporative coolers are well known technology.

Yes, I know, but we are talking specifically about 'evaporative cooler
boxes' here. Have you ever had / seen one?

FWIW I've made them and used ready made ones. They have their uses. But it has little to do with tumble driers.


NT

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:13:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 1 January 2018 00:03:07 UTC, T i m wrote:

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

evaporative coolers are well known technology.

Yes, I know, but we are talking specifically about 'evaporative
cooler boxes' here. Have you ever had / seen one?

Yep, they used to be almost universal here
before better ones became possible.

The amount of cooling is limited.

They also use it to cool the air near fountains and
my mate had an electric fan that sprayed a mist of
water into the air in front of it and that worked ok.

You can still buy those.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:03:41 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 1 January 2018 01:51:16 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:13:28 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 1 January 2018 00:03:07 UTC, T i m wrote:

OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug

I'm aware of cheap air-con units that use that principal and I've used
/ made my own impromptu ones for some milk or beer when camping but
I've never seen a commercial one. Not saying they don't exist ...

Cheers, T i m

evaporative coolers are well known technology.

Yes, I know, but we are talking specifically about 'evaporative cooler
boxes' here. Have you ever had / seen one?

FWIW I've made them and used ready made ones.

Ok.

They have their uses.

How do they compare to a Peltier cooler?

But it has little to do with tumble driers.

They might, depending what you were setting out to do (dry clothes or
create a cooler box). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Wrote in message:
On Thursday, 28 December 2017 13:18:01 UTC, Lee wrote:

Most of the complaints about heat pump dryers (apart from the cost) is
people saying they take longer to dry, I'm not convinced this is the
problem people make it out to be.
A "normal" load of say a bedding change (cotton) and a couple of
towels spun at 1600rpm dries in about 2.5 hours. AFAICS this is about
on par with a non heat pump machine.

I guess spinning at a lower speed or putting m,ore stuff in will greatly
affect drying time.

I had an electric tumbledrier years ago. Nothing ever took more thn 40 minutes.


NT


For 7 pairs of Y fronts & three shirts maybe...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:


OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug


When I was young and domestic fridges were the exception
rather than the rule, my mum had a butter cooler which worked
on that principle.

It was an unglazed porcelain urn with matching lid which was
half filled with water and a glass container that fitted in
the top to hold the butter.

I'm quite sure that larger versions were made as it was a
simple but effective way of achieving the objective.

--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:06:02 -0000, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:


OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug


When I was young and domestic fridges were the exception
rather than the rule, my mum had a butter cooler which worked
on that principle.

It was an unglazed porcelain urn with matching lid which was
half filled with water and a glass container that fitted in
the top to hold the butter.

I'm quite sure that larger versions were made as it was a
simple but effective way of achieving the objective.

Now you mention it it does remind me of that sort of solution. Not
sure I've seen a camping cooler box in that form though. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 15:06:02 -0000, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:


OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug


When I was young and domestic fridges were the exception
rather than the rule, my mum had a butter cooler which worked
on that principle.

It was an unglazed porcelain urn with matching lid which was
half filled with water and a glass container that fitted in
the top to hold the butter.

I'm quite sure that larger versions were made as it was a
simple but effective way of achieving the objective.

Now you mention it it does remind me of that sort of solution. Not
sure I've seen a camping cooler box in that form though. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Inverted, soaked, unglazed pots for milk bottles to keep them cool for
people who were out when the milkman came used to be commonplace.

--

Roger Hayter

On 01/01/2018 15:06, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:32:33 -0800 (PST), wrote:


OOI, have you ever seen or used a cooler box that works by the
evaporation of water because I haven't? shrug


When I was young and domestic fridges were the exception
rather than the rule, my mum had a butter cooler which worked
on that principle.

It was an unglazed porcelain urn with matching lid which was
half filled with water and a glass container that fitted in
the top to hold the butter.

My sister had a "milk cooler" which appeared to be made of some kind of
chalk with a dip in the top to pour water. I've no idea how effective it
was.

When I lived in places with no refrigerator I would put milk &c. on an
outside windowsill of suitable prospect. Or Use a vacuum flask if the
stuff was already cold from a work or shop fridge. I had a large flask
with a plastic lining at one time for bacon and other solid food.

--
Max Demian

On 28/12/2017 01:20, T i m wrote:
If it leaks humidity we may have to run the de-humidifier
and that reduces the efficiency a bit?

AFAIK they all leak humidity.

I'd design it with a closed cycle air system. They don't seem to do that
- they heat fresh air, then cool it again on the way out to extract some
of the moisture. Not all of it.

Andy

On 01/01/2018 15:54, T i m wrote:
Now you mention it it does remind me of that sort of solution. Not
sure I've seen a camping cooler box in that form though.;-)

https://static.petersofkensington.com.au/images/ProductImages/285433-Zoom.jpg

"ideal at home or on safari"

Andy

On 1/1/2018 3:49 PM, Max Demian wrote:

When I lived in places with no refrigerator I would put milk &c. on an
outside windowsill of suitable prospect. Or Use a vacuum flask if the
stuff was already cold from a work or shop fridge. I had a large flask
with a plastic lining at one time for bacon and other solid food.

I used a windowsill, too, but I draped a wet towel over the
milk/butter/etc.

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 21:34:10 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 01/01/2018 15:54, T i m wrote:
Now you mention it it does remind me of that sort of solution. Not
sure I've seen a camping cooler box in that form though.;-)

https://static.petersofkensington.com.au/images/ProductImages/285433-Zoom.jpg

"ideal at home or on safari"

Neat (if you aren't on a 'hiking safari' probably, even if it is near
a river). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Vir Campestris Wrote in message:
On 01/01/2018 15:54, T i m wrote:
Now you mention it it does remind me of that sort of solution. Not
sure I've seen a camping cooler box in that form though.;-)

https://static.petersofkensington.com.au/images/ProductImages/285433-Zoom.jpg

"ideal at home or on safari"

Andy


Mine works well :-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 21:25:24 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 28/12/2017 01:20, T i m wrote:
If it leaks humidity we may have to run the de-humidifier
and that reduces the efficiency a bit?

AFAIK they all leak humidity.

I'd design it with a closed cycle air system. They don't seem to do that
- they heat fresh air, then cool it again on the way out to extract some
of the moisture. Not all of it.

I think our vented TD also leaks a little bit of humidity but most of
that is probably because it's not pretty old and quite worn (felt
seals etc).

Luckily, dealing with the potential issues of condenser dryers can now
wait for a while as we got the old vented one going (again). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 01/01/2018 23:31, S Viemeister wrote:
On 1/1/2018 3:49 PM, Max Demian wrote:

When I lived in places with no refrigerator I would put milk &c. on an
outside windowsill of suitable prospect. Or Use a vacuum flask if the
stuff was already cold from a work or shop fridge. I had a large flask
with a plastic lining at one time for bacon and other solid food.

I used a windowsill, too, but I draped a wet towel over the
milk/butter/etc.

An outside storage place is useful even if you have a fridge. The place
I lived at before now had a porch cupboard which was useful to keep old
potatoes which use up too much space in a fridge and which don't like to
be too cold - just a cool, dark place. I kept other root vegetables and
large bottles of cider there too, in the winter. My old potatoes are
sprouting like mad now. A good job Asda gave up their daft idea of not
selling loose potatoes (and carrots) recently.

--
Max Demian

On 1/2/2018 6:41 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 01/01/2018 23:31, S Viemeister wrote:
On 1/1/2018 3:49 PM, Max Demian wrote:
When I lived in places with no refrigerator I would put milk &c. on
an outside windowsill of suitable prospect. Or Use a vacuum flask if
the stuff was already cold from a work or shop fridge. I had a large
flask with a plastic lining at one time for bacon and other solid food.
I used a windowsill, too, but I draped a wet towel over the
milk/butter/etc.
An outside storage place is useful even if you have a fridge. The place
I lived at before now had a porch cupboard which was useful to keep old
potatoes which use up too much space in a fridge and which don't like to
be too cold - just a cool, dark place. I kept other root vegetables and
large bottles of cider there too, in the winter. My old potatoes are
sprouting like mad now. A good job Asda gave up their daft idea of not
selling loose potatoes (and carrots) recently.

Years ago, many houses were built with well-ventilated larders. My
Granny's kitchen had a larder on the shady side of the house, with a
wire box sticking out of its window, for keeping things cool - that's
where I learned the wet towel trick.

On 02/01/2018 12:39, S Viemeister wrote:
On 1/2/2018 6:41 AM, Max Demian wrote:

An outside storage place is useful even if you have a fridge. The
place I lived at before now had a porch cupboard which was useful to
keep old potatoes which use up too much space in a fridge and which
don't like to be too cold - just a cool, dark place. I kept other root
vegetables and large bottles of cider there too, in the winter. My old
potatoes are sprouting like mad now. A good job Asda gave up their
daft idea of not selling loose potatoes (and carrots) recently.

Years ago, many houses were built with well-ventilated larders. My
Granny's kitchen had a larder on the shady side of the house, with a
wire box sticking out of its window, for keeping things cool - that's
where I learned the wet towel trick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larder

In the house that my parents build in 1956-7 there was a small larder,
which, though not on the north of the house, had a "window opening
covered in fine mesh" - to keep out the flies. There was also a tiled
concrete slab - "A pantry may contain a thrawl, a term used in
Derbyshire and Yorkshire, to denote a stone slab or shelf used to keep
food cool in the days before refrigeration was domestically available" -
though I never heard it referred to by that name, and I don't know how
it was described to the builder, or whether it served the purpose. They
eventually bought a refrigerator, though it was placed in the hall as
there was no room in the kitchenette.

--
Max Demian

On 1/2/2018 2:25 PM, Max Demian wrote:

In the house that my parents build in 1956-7 there was a small larder,
which, though not on the north of the house, had a "window opening
covered in fine mesh" - to keep out the flies. There was also a tiled
concrete slab - "A pantry may contain a thrawl, a term used in
Derbyshire and Yorkshire, to denote a stone slab or shelf used to keep
food cool in the days before refrigeration was domestically available" -
though I never heard it referred to by that name, and I don't know how
it was described to the builder, or whether it served the purpose. They
eventually bought a refrigerator, though it was placed in the hall as
there was no room in the kitchenette.

I've seen old houses with kitchen storerooms lined with stone shelves.
I've not heard the term thrawl, though.
Now I'm curious - I think I'll poke around in my Scots dictionaries, to
see if I can find what they'd have been called in Granny's day.

On Tuesday, 2 January 2018 22:11:47 UTC, S Viemeister wrote:
On 1/2/2018 2:25 PM, Max Demian wrote:

In the house that my parents build in 1956-7 there was a small larder,
which, though not on the north of the house, had a "window opening
covered in fine mesh" - to keep out the flies. There was also a tiled
concrete slab - "A pantry may contain a thrawl, a term used in
Derbyshire and Yorkshire, to denote a stone slab or shelf used to keep
food cool in the days before refrigeration was domestically available" -
though I never heard it referred to by that name, and I don't know how
it was described to the builder, or whether it served the purpose. They
eventually bought a refrigerator, though it was placed in the hall as
there was no room in the kitchenette.

I've seen old houses with kitchen storerooms lined with stone shelves.
I've not heard the term thrawl, though.

They would moderate the hot swings a bit in the day. Were they also wetted for additional cooling?


NT

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 18:31:18 -0500, S Viemeister
wrote:

On 1/1/2018 3:49 PM, Max Demian wrote:

When I lived in places with no refrigerator I would put milk &c. on an
outside windowsill of suitable prospect.

I used a windowsill, too, but I draped a wet towel over the
milk/butter/etc.

In the days before keg beer and cooling systems landlords used Hessian
sacks soaked in water to to keep the casks cool on hot days.

May not reach the low "we market it this cold as refreshing but really
it is anathematize your taste buds because the taste is foul really"
temperatures found in recent years for some drinks but still cool
enough on a hot day to be appreciated.

G.Harman