On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article ,
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the house.

I haven't seen a non-room sealed boiler for many, many years.

Apart from old cast iron floor standing ones.

In article , Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article , www.GymRatZ.co.uk
wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler
longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the house.

I haven't seen a non-room sealed boiler for many, many years.

Apart from old cast iron floor standing ones.

I haven't even bothered to look at the boiler market for 30 years. Mine
dates from that era and receives its air from the room.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:12:01 +0000, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:

On 27/12/2017 14:13, Paul Giverin wrote:

What sort of savings would I make with a new efficient condensing
boiler over my older non condensing one?

When I checked my non-condensing one it was only 10% less efficient than
the Carlos Fandango premium condensing boiler by the same manufacturer.

I rather suspect that the efficiency aspect of modern condensing boilers
is rather over-emphasised by the manufacturers choosing to compare under
installation conditions idealised to maximise the performance differences
between the older non-condensing boiler types and the latest all singing
all dancing condensing boilers.

The classic way of exaggerating the difference is to assume a wall
mounted, directly vented to a balanced flue boiler installation in a
modern build house (which is fine if you live in such a modern property
bereft of space and a decent chimney flue to avoid resorting to a
balanced flue).

For those of us living in older properties possessed of suitable
chimneys by which to vent the boiler exhaust and a basement to install a
decently specced boiler into, the improved efficiency in practice turns
out to be a lot less than "The Ideal" case used to justify the extra
expense of maintaining a modern condensing boiler.

If you live in an older Victorian property, as a significant fraction of
households do in the UK, upgrading to a condensing boiler won't
necessarily realise the improved headline efficiencies claimed in the
manufacturers' brochures.

The higher maintenance costs of a modern condensing boiler can all too
readily gobble up the savings in energy costs. When you add in the boiler
replacement costs over the longer term (7 to 10 year life cycles seeming
to be the 'norm' going by posts made to this NG), it would seem that a
good old fashioned cast iron lump of a boiler is a better bet for
minimising the TCO in an older Victorian property.

I'm in no hurry to 'upgrade' the boiler to a modern condensing one just
to reduce energy costs by a mere 10% or less since I suspect the annual
servicing costs will outweigh the energy savings, let alone the fact that
the boiler might not last long enough to realise what savings might
possibly arise in spite of the increased maintenance costs.

My existing 33/34 year old Ideal Mexico Super CF.100 conventional flue
gas boiler has cost me an average of ten quid a year in maintenance
expenses, essentially servicing visits to replace one (possibly two) gas
valve(s) and two (or three) thermocouples with possibly just two or three
cleaning cycles of the burner and H/E assembly. This costing exercise
also included one replacement pump, a 3 port mid position valve
refurbishment, a couple of thermostatic rad valves and a replacement NiMH
backup battery for the Potterton 2000 controller as DIY repair jobs.

The system was installed without a room thermostat, relying completely
on the use of TRVs on all but one rad and the boiler stat. TBH, a room
stat wouldn't have been much benefit in this property and its usage at
the time. Even today, it's hard to make a case for a room stat since it
would require that we elect a particular room to set the temperature for
the rest of the house.

If I was forced to invest in an 'improvement', I'd choose to upgrade the
Potterton controller to a more sophisticated one that includes an outside
temperature sensor for weather compensation and leave the room thermostat
option for later consideration. In my case, weather compensation would
trump a room stat as far as energy savings are concerned in my view.

--
Johnny B Good

On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article ,
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the house.


The word dog I assume in this case is not a term of endearment for the wife.

--


Adam

In article , ARW
wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article , www.GymRatZ.co.uk
wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler
longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the house.


The word dog I assume in this case is not a term of endearment for the
wife.


no - I was thinkingb of the canine variety.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 27/12/2017 17:06, Brian Gaff wrote:
Hmm, I'd have thought by now there would be a thriving market in heat
reclamation devices for non condensing boilers. Why is this not the case?
Brian

My Baxi Bermuda used flue blocks, typical of the 70's. This meant the
bedroom wall above the fire/backboiler got really hot and kept the
room warm in all but the coldest weather. Even the original installer
had fitted a radiator that was much smaller than the other bedroom.

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from Ebay at
well below the local prices, and fitted it myself. Paid for itself in
approx 4 years over the previous RS cast iron lump. But my gas usage
is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered "competent" to
fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a good bit of confusion
around for anyone considering a DIY gas installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are no leaks
then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct combustion is the only
tricky part of modern boilers.

On 27/12/2017 14:37, David wrote:
From my very limited experience
boiler installers tend to specialise in one model because it is easiest to
just learn one system and carry one set of spares.

They don't generally carry spares, unless they are generic.
Installers like to push specific brands because they get rewards from
the manufacturers, just like IFAs used to 'recommend' the funds that
paid them the highest up-front and trail commissions.

On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article ,
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the house.

My baxi bermuda back boiler used to have an amazing build up of burnt
fluff and other destritus even without a dog. It just seems to
accumulate.

Andrew wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article ,
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they
stop working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff
that doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure
boiler longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in
a while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the
house.
My baxi bermuda back boiler used to have an amazing build up of burnt
fluff and other destritus even without a dog. It just seems to
accumulate.

I used to install them over 40 years ago. Apart from the thermocouples
failing they were excellent.

On 28/12/17 13:12, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 14:13, Paul Giverin wrote:

What sort of savings would I make with a new efficient condensing boiler
over my older non condensing one?

When I checked my non-condensing one it was only 10% less efficient than
the Carlos Fandango premium condensing boiler by the same manufacturer.



If you're in the market for a new boiler, that's worth having. But you
wouldn't replace a working or maintainable boiler *just* for that.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from Ebay at
well below the local prices, and fitted it myself. Paid for itself in
approx 4 years over the previous RS cast iron lump. But my gas usage
is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered "competent" to
fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a good bit of confusion
around for anyone considering a DIY gas installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are no leaks
then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct combustion is the only
tricky part of modern boilers.


I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is
expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from Ebay at
well below the local prices, and fitted it myself. Paid for itself in
approx 4 years over the previous RS cast iron lump. But my gas usage
is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered "competent" to
fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a good bit of confusion
around for anyone considering a DIY gas installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are no leaks
then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct combustion is the only
tricky part of modern boilers.


I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is
expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.

I think you are commenting on a loosely worded sentence (*at* the
*required* gas rate the boiler maintains a *pressure of* 20 mBar) rather
than an error.

--

Roger Hayter

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:18:30 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

Graham. wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from
Ebay at well below the local prices, and fitted it myself.
Paid for itself in approx 4 years over the previous RS cast
iron lump. But my gas usage is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered
"competent" to fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a
good bit of confusion around for anyone considering a DIY gas
installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I
defy any inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro.
Except those who only know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are
no leaks then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct
combustion is the only tricky part of modern boilers.

I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is
expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.

I think you are commenting on a loosely worded sentence (*at* the
*required* gas rate the boiler maintains a *pressure of* 20 mBar)
rather than an error.

Here we seem to be in a problem area where Northern Gas Networks
won't allow installers to venture, let alone the d-i-y amateurs.

mechanic wrote:

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:18:30 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

Graham. wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from
Ebay at well below the local prices, and fitted it myself.
Paid for itself in approx 4 years over the previous RS cast
iron lump. But my gas usage is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered
"competent" to fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a
good bit of confusion around for anyone considering a DIY gas
installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I
defy any inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro.
Except those who only know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are
no leaks then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct
combustion is the only tricky part of modern boilers.

I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is
expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.

I think you are commenting on a loosely worded sentence (*at* the
*required* gas rate the boiler maintains a *pressure of* 20 mBar)
rather than an error.

Here we seem to be in a problem area where Northern Gas Networks
won't allow installers to venture, let alone the d-i-y amateurs.

Not necessarily. We are assuming the pressure is OK at the meter. The
test is to ensure it does not drop at the boiler end when it is on full
power. If it does it is more likely to be inadequate pipework in the
house than a supply fault. But if properly designed it is just a check
to show it works and is not blocked anywhere.


--

Roger Hayter

"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote in message
news
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler longevity.

well all the guy did was test stuff.

but everyone (including the lawyer when you want to sell) calls it servicing

tim

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:15, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

This statement gets my vote.


I suppose I do give a stuff, but only because in theory if I install a
boiler I now ought to go to building control. Other than that most
fatalities have been caused by Gas Safe installers.

I'm not interested in 'building control' either. Not in terms of a bit of
paper. But I'll certainly conform to building regs where sensible. But not
if they say, for example, all sockets must be a meter above floor level so
a wheelchair user is able to access them easily.

I also live in my own home, so want anything installed to be safe and
work properly.

Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

I am certainly ****ed off with the nanny state through interest groups
like NIC and Gas Safe, such anyone doing their own work gets my vote too.

I've no objection to sensible rules and regs. After all everyone uses them.
When cooking the turkey, you're likely to look to Delia etc for advice.

What I would object to is some trade body persuading the government that
only they can cook a turkey safely.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:53, charles wrote:
In article ,
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I
think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they
stop working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff
that doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler
longevity.

Cleaning the "fluff" out of the combustion area is necessary once in a
while - if the boiler is not room sealed and there's a dog in the
house.

I haven't seen a non-room sealed boiler for many, many years.

Apart from old cast iron floor standing ones.

Even a basic RS type can get sooted up. Mine did - took about 5 years
plus. And cost no more to clean than an annual 'service'.

My present one with fan flue has run for a lot longer than that without
being cleaned. But it does measure its own emissions, so will warn if not
burning cleanly.

--
*Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
For those of us living in older properties possessed of suitable
chimneys by which to vent the boiler exhaust and a basement to install a
decently specced boiler into, the improved efficiency in practice turns
out to be a lot less than "The Ideal" case used to justify the extra
expense of maintaining a modern condensing boiler.

Can you please explain the costs of maintaining a modern condensing
boiler? As opposed to fixing anything that may go wrong?

Old boilers (or rather CH systems) still have things like pumps and valves
which can and will fail eventually. No different from a modern one.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 27/12/2017 17:06, Brian Gaff wrote:
Hmm, I'd have thought by now there would be a thriving market in heat
reclamation devices for non condensing boilers. Why is this not the case?
Brian

My Baxi Bermuda used flue blocks, typical of the 70's. This meant the
bedroom wall above the fire/backboiler got really hot and kept the
room warm in all but the coldest weather. Even the original installer
had fitted a radiator that was much smaller than the other bedroom.

Yes. My old Potterton RS floor stander was in the large bathroom, and kept
it nice and warm. Fine in the winter - but perhaps not so much on a hot
day when only doing the hot water.

Had to add a rad in the bathroom when I changed to a modern boiler. I'd
rather the heat goes were I want it to, since I'm paying for the gas no
matter where it goes. ;-)

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
My baxi bermuda back boiler used to have an amazing build up of burnt
fluff and other destritus even without a dog. It just seems to
accumulate.

I used to install them over 40 years ago. Apart from the thermocouples
failing they were excellent.

Excellent as regards efficiency? Bet you have LEDs everywhere. ;-)

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop
working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that
doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler
longevity.

well all the guy did was test stuff.

but everyone (including the lawyer when you want to sell) calls it
servicing

I think of servicing as per a car. Where it needs routine work like oil
and filter changes. I'd not call replacing a broken alternator (or
whatever) a service. It's a repair.

Basically, a service is needed to keep something in peak condition. If all
it consists of is looking at things, it's an inspection. And with a
boiler, is unlikely to show things which may or may not break in the next
year, unless you're very lucky.

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:18:30 +0000, (Roger Hayter)
coalesced the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful
comprehension...

Graham. wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Depends on how much gas you use. I bought a Viessmann from Ebay at
well below the local prices, and fitted it myself. Paid for itself in
approx 4 years over the previous RS cast iron lump. But my gas usage
is higher than average.

Are you on the Gas Safe Register? Or are you considered "competent" to
fit a gas appliance? There still seems to be a good bit of confusion
around for anyone considering a DIY gas installation.

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

Hear, hear.

If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are no leaks
then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct combustion is the only
tricky part of modern boilers.


I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is
expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.

I think you are commenting on a loosely worded sentence (*at* the
*required* gas rate the boiler maintains a *pressure of* 20 mBar) rather
than an error.

Yes, reading it again, that appears to be the case.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
For those of us living in older properties possessed of suitable
chimneys by which to vent the boiler exhaust and a basement to install a
decently specced boiler into, the improved efficiency in practice turns
out to be a lot less than "The Ideal" case used to justify the extra
expense of maintaining a modern condensing boiler.

Can you please explain the costs of maintaining a modern condensing
boiler? As opposed to fixing anything that may go wrong?

Old boilers (or rather CH systems) still have things like pumps and valves
which can and will fail eventually. No different from a modern one.

I suspect that part of the problem is caused by the slightly complex
control circuitry. This is operating in a somewhat hostile environment for
electronics and tends to be the main cause of failure. (Lead-free solder
probably doesn;t help the reliability)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
Old boilers (or rather CH systems) still have things like pumps and
valves which can and will fail eventually. No different from a modern
one.

I suspect that part of the problem is caused by the slightly complex
control circuitry. This is operating in a somewhat hostile environment
for electronics and tends to be the main cause of failure. (Lead-free
solder probably doesn;t help the reliability)

On my Viessmann, the PCB is sited at the bottom of the boiler. And runs at
near enough room temperture. A decent modern boiler produces very little
heat into the room anyway. A far less hostile environment than the average
car ECU. And probably better than the average PC, or PVR, etc.

--
*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:15:38 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:15, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

This statement gets my vote.


I suppose I do give a stuff, but only because in theory if I
install a boiler I now ought to go to building control. Other
than that most fatalities have been caused by Gas Safe
installers.

Because most installers, or at least the professional ones, are Gas
Safe registered.

I'm not interested in 'building control' either. Not in terms of
a bit of paper. But I'll certainly conform to building regs where
sensible. But not if they say, for example, all sockets must be a
meter above floor level so a wheelchair user is able to access
them easily.

I also live in my own home, so want anything installed to be safe
and work properly.

Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

On 29/12/2017 18:24, mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:15:38 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:15, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

This statement gets my vote.


I suppose I do give a stuff, but only because in theory if I
install a boiler I now ought to go to building control. Other
than that most fatalities have been caused by Gas Safe
installers.

Because most installers, or at least the professional ones, are Gas
Safe registered.

I'm not interested in 'building control' either. Not in terms of
a bit of paper. But I'll certainly conform to building regs where
sensible. But not if they say, for example, all sockets must be a
meter above floor level so a wheelchair user is able to access
them easily.

I also live in my own home, so want anything installed to be safe
and work properly.

Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

Most areas of high density housing, such as flats, generally don't have gas.

Otherwise, it's rare for a gas explosion. You're very unlucky to have a
fatality from a gas leak in any given year. Of the few that happen, most
are caused by tradesmen.

Perceived risk is a strange quantity, far better to take greater care
when crossing the road.

I'm with Dave here. A DIYer will respect gas and because they're living
with it will take greater care than any installer.

On Friday, 29 December 2017 18:24:16 UTC, mechanic wrote:

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

Personally I'm more interested in something being done properly than being assured that it's done properly. When I can assess it myself, I'm happy to, then assurances mean nothing. When I can't I turn to someone with the skill to do so for me.


NT

On Friday, 29 December 2017 18:34:26 UTC, Fredxx wrote:
On 29/12/2017 18:24, mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:15:38 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 28/12/2017 13:15, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't give a stuff about 'Gas Safe' in my own house. And I defy any
inspector etc to tell it wasn't installed by a pro. Except those who only
know such things by a bit of paper.

This statement gets my vote.


I suppose I do give a stuff, but only because in theory if I
install a boiler I now ought to go to building control. Other
than that most fatalities have been caused by Gas Safe
installers.

Because most installers, or at least the professional ones, are Gas
Safe registered.

I'm not interested in 'building control' either. Not in terms of
a bit of paper. But I'll certainly conform to building regs where
sensible. But not if they say, for example, all sockets must be a
meter above floor level so a wheelchair user is able to access
them easily.

I also live in my own home, so want anything installed to be safe
and work properly.

Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

Most areas of high density housing, such as flats, generally don't have gas.

Otherwise, it's rare for a gas explosion. You're very unlucky to have a
fatality from a gas leak in any given year. Of the few that happen, most
are caused by tradesmen.

Perceived risk is a strange quantity, far better to take greater care
when crossing the road.

I'm with Dave here. A DIYer will respect gas and because they're living
with it will take greater care than any installer.

If they have the skill & sanity, yes. I once bought a gas oven that had previously been installed by wrapping insulation tape round the copper pipe before stuffing it into a hose.


NT

On 29/12/2017 18:24, mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:15:38 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

The fundamental legal requirement for all gas work is that it is carried
out competently. Assuming that is the starting point for any DIY
installation then there is nothing to worry about is there?

IME the broad perception among jo public is that they are "not allowed"
to do gas work. So its only the more diligent DIYers who do the required
research and learning that are prepared to DIY in the first place.

(Building control in the case of plumbing work is primarily concerned
with fuel and energy efficiency... I would be surprised if any LABC
departments had a capability to inspect and certify gas work)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH system
competently, why is the gas supply going to be any different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

Are you trying to suggest the Grenfell tragedy was the result of DIY?

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?

I don't live in a tower block.

That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

You think they inspect every job done by a 'Gas Safe' registered person?

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Friday, 29 December 2017 18:24:16 UTC, mechanic wrote:

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?
That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

Personally I'm more interested in something being done properly than
being assured that it's done properly. When I can assess it myself, I'm
happy to, then assurances mean nothing. When I can't I turn to someone
with the skill to do so for me.


Quite. Given I live here, I'm going to take more care when working on gas
than many a pro. Self preservation is a powerful motivation. As is doing
the least work/time spent for the most money, like most tradesmen.

I also wouldn't know how to check a tradesman claiming to be 'Gas Safe'
actually was. Any more than I can check someone collecting door to door
really does work for the charity their badge says they do.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Given I live here, I'm going to take more care when working on gas
than many a pro. Self preservation is a powerful motivation.

Of the three times my gas meter has been swapped, none of them did a
soundness test before removing the old one, or a purge afterwards, only
one of them tested soundness afterwards.

After one swap there was a barely perceptible build up of gas smell
under the stairs if I left the door shut, a squirt of leak spray showed
a tiny bubble every few seconds from a union that wasn't properly tightened.

Dave Plowman wrote:

You think they inspect every job done by a 'Gas Safe' registered person?

Or even inspect their previous jobs after they leave an elbow fluxed but
un-soldered?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-42454276

Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Given I live here, I'm going to take more care when working on gas
than many a pro. Self preservation is a powerful motivation.

Of the three times my gas meter has been swapped, none of them did a
soundness test before removing the old one, or a purge afterwards, only
one of them tested soundness afterwards.

After one swap there was a barely perceptible build up of gas smell
under the stairs if I left the door shut, a squirt of leak spray showed
a tiny bubble every few seconds from a union that wasn't properly tightened.

I don't think it is too far fetched to suggest that the Gas Safe scheme
may increase danger by giving registered gas fitters a sense of
complacency about their job security, ability to compete, and earning
power, once they have the certificate.



--

Roger Hayter

On 29/12/2017 18:24, mechanic wrote:
Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to be
respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when they are
out of date.

This wasn't diy, it was a £10 million refurb that took building
regs into account and the cladding might not have been a problem
if the insulation had been rockwool instead of 'fire resistant'
celotex. All manner of 'experts' were happy with this work.

It was an unfortunate combination of events that caused this fire
and I suspect the worst mistake was allowing the stairwell to
become full of smoke. The enquiry will reveal all.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:41:07 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

IME the broad perception among jo public is that they are "not
allowed" to do gas work. So its only the more diligent DIYers who
do the required research and learning that are prepared to DIY in
the first place.

You have touching faith in these DIYers!

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 00:53:51 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
Which is why I DIY. If I'm capable of installing an entire CH
system competently, why is the gas supply going to be any
different?

Obviously the consequences of getting it wrong are different. The
Grenfell Tower enquiry will again show that regulations need to
be respected, and steps need to be taken to correct them when
they are out of date.

Are you trying to suggest the Grenfell tragedy was the result of
DIY?

That's not what I said at all.

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to be
assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done properly?

I don't live in a tower block.

Stop taking it personally. You are not the only person who might be
at risk.

That's why we have building control officers in the local council.

You think they inspect every job done by a 'Gas Safe' registered
person?

Most big installers have delegated approval powers and are trusted
to get things right. Building Control inspection is not needed on
every job.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:34:25 +0000
Fredxx wrote:

I'm with Dave here. A DIYer will respect gas and because they're
living with it will take greater care than any installer.

Taking care is not sufficient - some DIYers lack the insight to
recognise the limits of their competence, or the possible consequences
of their actions.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:22:42 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, 29 December 2017 18:24:16 UTC, mechanic wrote:

If you lived in a high density living area wouldn't you like to
be assured that the neighbour's gas installation was done
properly? That's why we have building control officers in the
local council.

Personally I'm more interested in something being done properly
than being assured that it's done properly.

But how would you know if your neighbour's installation was being
done properly? You have no right of access to check for yourself.
Ronan Point showed the consequences of getting it wrong.

When I can assess it myself, I'm happy to, then assurances mean
nothing. When I can't I turn to someone with the skill to do so
for me.

NT