https://standardsdevelopment.bsigrou...208ba39773f4df

Registration needed, sadly no pdf available for download

--

On 08/06/2017 10:11, The Other Mike wrote:
https://standardsdevelopment.bsigrou...208ba39773f4df

Registration needed, sadly no pdf available for download

Here is a OCR grab of the summary of changes:

A summary of the main changes is given below.
NOTE: This is not an exhaustive list.

Part 1 Scope, object and fundamental principles
Regulation 133.1.3 (Selection of equipment) has been modified and now
requires a statement on the Electrical Installation Certificate.

Part 2 Definitions
Definitions have been expanded and modified.

Chapter 41 Protection against electric shock
This Section contains a number of significant changes. Some of the main
ones are mentioned below.

The maximum disconnection times stated in Table 41.1 now apply for final
circuits up to 63 A with one or more socket-outlets and 32 A for final
circuits supplying only fixed connected current-using equipment
(Regulation 411.3.2.2).

Metallic pipes entering the building having an insulating section at
their entrance need not be connected to the protective equipotential
bonding.

Regulation 411.3.3 has been revised and now applies to socket-outlets
with a rated current not exceeding 32 A. The exception to omit RCD
protection for a specific labeled socket outlet or where, other than a
dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is
not necessary has been deleted. The Regulation now requires RCD
protection for all socket outlets.

A new Regulation 411.3.4 requires within domestic (household) premises
additional protection by an RCD with a rated residual operating current
not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for AC final circuits supplying
luminaires.

Regulation 411.4.3 has been modified to include that no switching or
isolating device shall be inserted in the PEN conductor.

Regulation 411.44 and 411.4.5 have been redrafted.
The Regulations concerning IT systems (411.6) have been reorganized.
Regulations 411.6.3.1 and 411.6.3.2 have been deleted and 411.6.4
redrafted and a new Regulation 411.6.5 inserted.

A new Regulation group (419) has been inserted where automatic
disconnection according to Regulation 411.3.2 is not feasible such as
electronic equipment with limited short-circuit current.
Chapter 42 Protection against thermal effects
A newr Regulation 421.7 has been introduced for the installation of arc
fault detection devices (AFDDs) to mitigate the risk of fire in final
circuits of a fixed installation due to the effect of arc fault currents.

Regulation 422.2.1 has been redrafted to take into account the
requirements of the European Construction Regulations (CPR) which
defines specific provisions necessary for all wire and cables
permanently installed in Construction Work. Regulation 422.3.4 has also
been modified to refer only to fire performance classes (Euroclasses).

Chapter 44 Protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic
disturbances

Section 443, which deals with protection against overvoltages of
atmospheric origin or due to switching has been redrafted.
The AQ criteria (conditions of external influence for lightning) for
determining if protection against transient overvoltage is needed is no
longer be included in BS 7671. Instead, protection against transient
overvoltage has to be provided where the consequence caused by
overvoltage affects human life, public services and cultural heritage,
and commercial or industrial activity.
For all other cases, a risk assessment has to be performed in order to
determine if protection against transient overvoltage is required.
There is an exception not to provide protection for single dwelling
units in certain situations.

Chapter 46 Devices for isolation and switching
A new Chapter 46 has been introduced. This deals with non-automatic
local and remote isolation and switching measures which prevent or
remove dangers associated with electrical installations or electrically
powered equipment. Also switching for the control of circuits or
equipment. Where electrically powered equipment is within the scope of
BS EN 60204, only the requirements of that standard apply.

Chapter 52 Selection and erection of wiring systems
Regulation 521.11. 201 giving requirements for the methods of support of
wiring systems in escape routes has been replaced by a new Regulation
521.10.202. This is a significant change. The new Regulation 521.10.202
requires cables to be adequately supported against their premature
collapse in the event of a fire. This applies throughout the
installation. Not just in escape routes.
Regulation 522.8.10 concerning buried cables has been modified to
include an exception for SELV cables.
Regulation 527.1.3 has also been modified to refer only to fire
performance classes (Euroclasses).

Chapter 53 Protection, isolation, switching, control and monitoring
This Chapter has been completely revised and deals with general
requirements for isolation, switching, control and monitoring and with
the requirements for selection and erection of the devices provided to
fulfil such functions.

Section 534 Devices for protection against overvoltage
This Section focuses mainly on the requirements for the selection and
erection of SPDs for protection against transient overvoltages where
required by Section 443, the BS EN 62305 series, or as otherwise stated.
Section 534 has been completely revised. The most significant technical
change refers to the selection requirements for the voltage protection
level.

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor. Two new regulations (542.2.3 and 542.2.8) have been
introduced concerning foundation earth electrodes.
Two new regulations (543.3.3.101 and 543.3.3.102) have been introduced.
These give requirements for the insertion of a switching device ir
protective conductor in situations where an installation is supplied
from more than one source of energy.

Chapter 55 Other equipment
Regulation 550.1 introduces a new scope.
Regulation 559.10 Ground-recessed luminaires.
For group-recessed luminaires, the selection and erection shall take
account of the guidance given in Table A.l of BS EN 60598-2-13.
Part 6 Inspection and testing
Part 6 has been completely restructured including the numbering to align
with the CENELEC standard. Chapter 61,62, and 63 have been deleted and
the content of these chapters have been moved to Chapter 64 and Chapter
65 as appropriate.

Section 704 Construction and demolition site installations
This Section contains a number of small changes including requirements
for external influences, and modifications to Regulation 704.410.3.6
concerning the protective measures of obstacles and placing out of reach
and electrical separation.

Section 708 Electrical installations in caravan/camping parks and
similar locations
This Section contains a number of changes including requirements for
socket-outlets, RCD protection, and operational conditions and external
influences.

Section 710 Medical locations
This Section contains a number of small changes including Table 710,
Regulation 710.415.2.1 and 710.415.2.3 concerning equipotential bonding.

Section 715 Extra-low voltage lighting installations
This Section contains only minor changes including modifications to
Regulation 715.524.201.

Section 721 Electrical installations in caravans and motor caravans
This Section contains a number of changes including requirements
electrical separation, RCDs, proximity to non-electrical services and
protective bonding conductors.

Section 722 Electric vehicle charging installations

This Section contains a significant change to Regulation 722.411.4.1
concerning the use of a PME supply. The exception concerning reasonably
practicable has been deleted. Changes have also been made to
requirements for external influences, RCDs, socket-outlets and connectors.

Section 730 Onshore units of electrical shore connections for inland
navigation vessels
This is a completely new Section. This Section applies to onshore
installations dedicated to the supply of inland navigation vessels for
commercial and administrative purpose, berthed in ports and berths.
Most, if not all, of the measures used to reduce the risks in marinas
equally apply for electrical shore connections for inland navigation
vessels. One of the major differences between supplies to vessels in a
typical marina and electrical shore connections for inland navigation
vessels is the size of the supply needed.

Section 753 Floor and ceiling heating systems
This Section has been completely revised. The scope of Section 753 has
been extended to apply to embedded electric heating systems for surface
heating. They also apply to electric heating systems for de-icing or
frost prevention or similar applications, and cover both indoor and
outdoor systems. Heating systems for industrial and commercial
applications complying with TEC 60519, IEC 62395 and IEC 60079 are not
covered.

Part 8 Energy efficiency
This is a completely new Part. The worldwide need to reduce the
consumption of energy means that we have to consider how electrical
installations can provide the required level of service and safety for
the lowest electrical consumption. Part 8 enables a client to specify
the level of energy efficiency measures applied to an electrical
installation. Installations can also be awarded points for energy
efficiency performance levels. The new Part covers several energy
efficient areas, such as lighting, metering, cable losses, transformer
losses, power- factor correction, and harmonics.

The follow main changes have been made within the appendices:

Appendix 1 British Standards to which reference is made in the
Regulations includes minor changes.

Appendix 3 Time/current characteristics of overcurrent protective
devices and RCDs
The contents of Appendix 14 concerning earth fault loop impedance have
been moved into Appendix 3.
Appendix 6 Model forms for certification and reporting
This Appendix includes minor changes to the certificates, changes to the
inspections (for new installation work only) for domestic and similar
premises with up to 100 A supply, examples of items requiring inspection
for an electrical installation condition report.
Appendix 7 (informative) Harmonized cable core colours
This Appendix includes only minor changes.
Appendix 8 Current carrying capacity- and voltage drop
This Appendix includes changes regarding rating factors for
current-carrying capacity.
Appendix 14 Determination of prospective fault current
The contents of Appendix 14 concerning earth fault loop impedance have
been moved into Appendix 3. Appendix 14 now contains information on
determination of prospective fault current.





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

Bugger: the second TN-S should be TN-C-S

--
Stupid old bugger
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a
part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of
the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a
dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection
to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 13:17:47 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Is operating a 1st edition install legal?


NT

On 08/06/2017 14:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a
part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of
the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a
dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection
to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!


Ah, right, thanks.

And this being the BS7671 lot I don't suppose they have published their
impact assessment for this - you know the kind of thing, with figures
for costs and benefits and the like.

Sheesh, if it were real legislation (instead of just "tertiary
legislation" 'cos in practice it has to be followed) they'd never get
away with it.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 08/06/2017 15:02, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form
a part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one
of the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance
of a dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main
connection to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!


Ah, right, thanks.

And this being the BS7671 lot I don't suppose they have published their
impact assessment for this - you know the kind of thing, with figures
for costs and benefits and the like.

I would guess if that comes (*if*) it would be after this consultation
exercise...

Sheesh, if it were real legislation (instead of just "tertiary
legislation" 'cos in practice it has to be followed) they'd never get
away with it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2017 14:39, wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 13:17:47 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Is operating a 1st edition install legal?

Na, just criminally insane... ;-)

The point was, if you carry out modifications to a system that was
compliant with the 1st edition at the time of installation, then all new
work will still need to comply with current legislation, and also, there
are aspects of the existing installation that must be brought up to
current standards, even if the new work would not directly affect them.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2017 16:55, John Rumm wrote:

I would guess if that comes (*if*) it would be after this consultation
exercise...

Yerrbut...they have form on not publishing their workings (eg on metal CUs).

And as you'll know, given the data and the assumptions behind a proposed
change people can comment on those as well as the change itself (as with
the original Part P where people pointed out the impact assessment
scored deaths by electrocution from appliances). If they only publish
them after consultation then it's too late to affect decisions.

As it is, I have no idea if the driving force is the safety of
consumers, let alone the cost per quality adjusted life year or
whatever. It might for all I know be DNOs wanting to avoid paying
compensation for damage to property. And they might be very happy for
consumers to pay £m25 a year to save them £m5 a year.

Sorry. Here endeth my rant.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Not when you just replace a failed outlet etc.

On 08/06/2017 14:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a
part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of
the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a
dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection
to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!

I would say it discounts the TT as TT has no distributors earthing
facility.


--
Adam

On 08/06/2017 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"




--
Adam

On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.



[rhetorical question and not a dig at you]
Do you think a 100 ohm earth rod will help if you lose the distributors
earth on a non RCD circuit?


BTW I forgot, almost everything must be now RCD protected because it's
SO much safer. But don't worry RCDs NEVER fail and they are ALL tested
every 3 months with the test button by the occupiers of the house and
every 10 years by an electrician doing an EICR.

The 19th edition (or maybe the 18th 3rd amendment) will bring back
bathroom supplementary bonding. I believe it was John Rumm that once
said "a bit of 4mm cable and a couple of earth clamps are almost bullet
proof"

Cheers

--
Adam

On 08/06/2017 19:11, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Changing the battery in the customer's vibrator ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2017 18:59, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 16:55, John Rumm wrote:

I would guess if that comes (*if*) it would be after this consultation
exercise...

Yerrbut...they have form on not publishing their workings (eg on metal
CUs).

And as you'll know, given the data and the assumptions behind a proposed
change people can comment on those as well as the change itself (as with
the original Part P where people pointed out the impact assessment
scored deaths by electrocution from appliances). If they only publish
them after consultation then it's too late to affect decisions.

In the case of part P though, a very different "they". Part P was a
government driven thing championed by Precott - not IET lead.

As it is, I have no idea if the driving force is the safety of
consumers, let alone the cost per quality adjusted life year or
whatever. It might for all I know be DNOs wanting to avoid paying
compensation for damage to property. And they might be very happy for
consumers to pay £m25 a year to save them £m5 a year.

Indeed, or just to keep revenue flowing in from sales of the big (insert
colour of choice) book!

Sorry. Here endeth my rant.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2017 19:04, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a
part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of
the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a
dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection
to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!

I would say it discounts the TT as TT has no distributors earthing
facility.

Yup perhaps, its not that well worded since they quote "542.1.2.1 to 3"
where 3 is TT...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2017 19:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 19:11, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Changing the battery in the customer's vibrator ;-)


I don't think that that the ones in Lou's are changeable.

It's a sealed unit (dishwasher proof) and the batteries are charged by
induction.


--
Adam

On 08/06/2017 19:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 19:04, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:54, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 12:57, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

I saw comments on that in April on the earlier draft of changes on the
lines of "Bound to be a controversial subject!".

But I think TN-S is OK; it's about PME (TN-S) where broken neutrals are
- allegedly - increasing.

It says:

"542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by
one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3 , as
appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a
part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2 .

***Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any
earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of
the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a
dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection
to***"

(My emphasis)

Which suggests it applies all earthing types - even TT!

I would say it discounts the TT as TT has no distributors earthing
facility.

Yup perhaps, its not that well worded since they quote "542.1.2.1 to 3"
where 3 is TT...



You know they will **** it up

--
Adam

On 08/06/2017 20:14, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 19:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 19:11, ARW wrote:
On 08/06/2017 13:17, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an
additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Changing the battery in the customer's vibrator ;-)


I don't think that that the ones in Lou's are changeable.

It's a sealed unit (dishwasher proof) and the batteries are charged by
induction.

Someone obviously took that old joke to heart - you know the "Don't
bother trying to get it out Doc, just change the batteries" ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/17 19:11, ARW wrote:
Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Well - properly worked on, for some definition of "properly". As you're
here, would you do the honours

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 16:58:50 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:39, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 13:17:47 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Is operating a 1st edition install legal?

Na, just criminally insane... ;-)

The point was, if you carry out modifications to a system that was
compliant with the 1st edition at the time of installation, then all new
work will still need to comply with current legislation, and also, there
are aspects of the existing installation that must be brought up to
current standards, even if the new work would not directly affect them.

Yup. And my point was that existing work meeting some old regs is legal, and to some other regs it's not. 1st edition wiring would definitely not be, 16th would.


NT

On 09/06/2017 10:08, wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 16:58:50 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:39, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 13:17:47 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Is operating a 1st edition install legal?

Na, just criminally insane... ;-)

The point was, if you carry out modifications to a system that was
compliant with the 1st edition at the time of installation, then all new
work will still need to comply with current legislation, and also, there
are aspects of the existing installation that must be brought up to
current standards, even if the new work would not directly affect them.

Yup. And my point was that existing work meeting some old regs is legal, and to some other regs it's not. 1st edition wiring would definitely not be, 16th would.

Some old regs, and some other regs? - I can't make sense of that sentence!

All work done correctly to old standards is "legal". The difficulty
comes when you want to modify it now.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/17 19:04, ARW wrote:

I would say it discounts the TT as TT has no distributors earthing
facility.

Agree.

It does also help with scenarios where one might run temporary from a
genny or UPS and the supplier's earth is in doubt during a power failure.

But does it say "and you must have 100% RCD protection"? Without that
it's pointless.

I know the other parts require 100% RCD coverage (if I read it right?)
for new installations, but if this part of earthing and bonding is made
retrospective on any major works being done (in the same way that
verifying main EB and supplementary EB where applicable is), then it
would be a bit odd.

On Friday, 9 June 2017 10:51:17 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/06/2017 10:08, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 16:58:50 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/06/2017 14:39, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 13:17:47 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 13:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-06-08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Chapter 54 Earthing arrangements and protective conductors
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.

Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Building Regs are not retrospective.



Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Is operating a 1st edition install legal?

Na, just criminally insane... ;-)

The point was, if you carry out modifications to a system that was
compliant with the 1st edition at the time of installation, then all new
work will still need to comply with current legislation, and also, there
are aspects of the existing installation that must be brought up to
current standards, even if the new work would not directly affect them.

Yup. And my point was that existing work meeting some old regs is legal, and to some other regs it's not. 1st edition wiring would definitely not be, 16th would.

Some old regs, and some other regs? - I can't make sense of that sentence!

All work done correctly to old standards is "legal". The difficulty
comes when you want to modify it now.

Let's try to explain again...
An existing installation conforming to 1st edition of the wiring rules is definitely not legal today. Anyone using such may land themselves in prison.
An existing installation conforming to 16th edition is perfectly legal.


NT

On 08/06/2017 19:44, John Rumm wrote:

Not another rant (I promise).

I have TN-S with the supplied main earth soldered to the lead sheath.

If the DNO converts me to PME so the supplier's main earthing terminal
is no longer using that, I wonder if I can use the sheath as a
supplementary earth within 542.2.2.2

"(vi) Lead sheaths and other metal coverings of cables, where not
precluded by Regulation 542.2.5"

given 542.2.5 doesn't seem to bar it:

"542.2.5 The use, as an earth electrode, of the lead sheath or other
metal covering of a cable shall be subject to all of the following
conditions:

(i) Adequate precautions shall be taken to prevent excessive
deterioration by corrosion
(ii) The sheath or covering shall be in effective contact with Earth
(iii) The consent of the owner of the cable shall be obtained
(iv) Arrangements shall exist for the owner of the electrical
installation to be warned of any proposed change to the cable which
might affect its suitability as an earth electrode."

I have a feeling though I'm probably in Baldrick "cunning plan" territory.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 09/06/2017 08:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 19:11, ARW wrote:
Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Well - properly worked on, for some definition of "properly". As you're
here, would you do the honours


Anything that requires an installation certificate (say a new circuit
adding) would require the main bonding to be brought up to spec.

Minor works such as swapping a light fitting would not.

However I would not swap0 a shower for a like for like if there was no
RCD protection and the main bonding was poor (others might)

--
Adam

On 09/06/2017 14:28, Robin wrote:
On 08/06/2017 19:44, John Rumm wrote:

Not another rant (I promise).

I have TN-S with the supplied main earth soldered to the lead sheath.

If the DNO converts me to PME so the supplier's main earthing terminal
is no longer using that, I wonder if I can use the sheath as a
supplementary earth within 542.2.2.2

"(vi) Lead sheaths and other metal coverings of cables, where not
precluded by Regulation 542.2.5"

In theory it sounds like it would be ok. The only difficulty I suppose
is ensuring it stays that way. All the time the DNO is supplying your
earth via that route you know they will maintain it. Once they convert
you to PME, you have no guarantee that they will, and they would be
unlikely to feel the need to tell you if they re-cabled a great lump of
the supply without the lead sheath. I suppose if you periodically tested
as one ought with a TT earth, then you could argue its ok.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/06/17 18:42, ARW wrote:
On 09/06/2017 08:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 19:11, ARW wrote:
Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Well - properly worked on, for some definition of "properly". As you're
here, would you do the honours


Anything that requires an installation certificate (say a new circuit
adding) would require the main bonding to be brought up to spec.

Minor works such as swapping a light fitting would not.

However I would not swap0 a shower for a like for like if there was no
RCD protection and the main bonding was poor (others might)


Thanks for that Adam. I knew it lay somewhere with more major works but
I could not put my finger on it...

On 09/06/17 18:42, ARW wrote:
On 09/06/2017 08:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 19:11, ARW wrote:
Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Well - properly worked on, for some definition of "properly". As you're
here, would you do the honours


Anything that requires an installation certificate (say a new circuit
adding) would require the main bonding to be brought up to spec.

Minor works such as swapping a light fitting would not.

However I would not swap0 a shower for a like for like if there was no
RCD protection and the main bonding was poor (others might)


On a related note, I have one more job to do under an open building
control job, which is to add lighting to a new shower room and
supplementary bonding. Could you help me please with the paperwork?


I'm fine with the work and the testing, but I am not sure how to do the
certification, given I've already signed an EIC and handed in, plus I
hired a sparky to lay in the lighting in the rest of the place to save
time and his bit is directly notified.

Is this a MWC or an EIC - and if an EIC, do you just record the one
circuit affected or do you record all circuits - and if the latter are
you expected to retest all of them?


Cheers,

Tim

On 09/06/2017 19:33, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/06/17 18:42, ARW wrote:
On 09/06/2017 08:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/06/17 19:11, ARW wrote:
Some IET Regs are - eg bonding and earthing must be brought up to spec
when anything electrical is worked on.

Define "anything electrical is worked on"

Well - properly worked on, for some definition of "properly". As you're
here, would you do the honours


Anything that requires an installation certificate (say a new circuit
adding) would require the main bonding to be brought up to spec.

Minor works such as swapping a light fitting would not.

However I would not swap0 a shower for a like for like if there was no
RCD protection and the main bonding was poor (others might)


On a related note, I have one more job to do under an open building
control job, which is to add lighting to a new shower room and
supplementary bonding. Could you help me please with the paperwork?


I'm fine with the work and the testing, but I am not sure how to do the
certification, given I've already signed an EIC and handed in, plus I
hired a sparky to lay in the lighting in the rest of the place to save
time and his bit is directly notified.

Is this a MWC or an EIC - and if an EIC, do you just record the one
circuit affected or do you record all circuits - and if the latter are
you expected to retest all of them?

There is no need to retest all of the circuits MWC or EIC, just the ones
you worked on.

If the work you are doing is under the 16th edition then you can still
carry on under the 16th edition. However if you have handed in a
certificate saying all the electrical work was complete then you may
have to do the new work under the 17th edition.

This one is probably down to your BCOs judgement as to if the EIC you
handed in was a final document or not. If he knew there was extra
electrical work to be done then you should be able to carry on with the
16th.

All the best mate but this one is down to your BCO unless you think I
have missed something in my reply.


--
Adam

On 09/06/17 20:02, ARW wrote:

This one is probably down to your BCOs judgement as to if the EIC you
handed in was a final document or not. If he knew there was extra
electrical work to be done then you should be able to carry on with the
16th.

All the best mate but this one is down to your BCO unless you think I
have missed something in my reply.



Cheers mate,

I've been working to the 17th the whole way - it was just the procedure
of certification that I'm not sure of:

Is this an MWC or an EIC for additions in a special location to an
existing circuit? Never been sure what a MWC is actually for...



Unsurprisingly a 4 day Part P course does not cover such nuances!



BTW - I'd designed to not have supp. bonding. But after reading your
views on the matter, I'm putting SB on the shower room and probably
retro fitting to the main bathroom - albeit it will be externally
applied as allowed by the regs, rather than the more conventional
approach. Your theory makes sense - nothing much to go wrong with simple
SB, but the other approach both relies on RCDs working AND plumbers not
coming along later and inserting insulating sections in the pipework
ruining the continuity.

Having spoken to a GasSafe fitter who will be doing my boiler,
apparently the GasSafe certifications don't cover much to do with
bonding, which seems a bit weak...

On 09/06/2017 23:15, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/06/17 20:02, ARW wrote:

This one is probably down to your BCOs judgement as to if the EIC you
handed in was a final document or not. If he knew there was extra
electrical work to be done then you should be able to carry on with
the 16th.

All the best mate but this one is down to your BCO unless you think I
have missed something in my reply.



Cheers mate,

I've been working to the 17th the whole way - it was just the procedure
of certification that I'm not sure of:

Is this an MWC or an EIC for additions in a special location to an
existing circuit? Never been sure what a MWC is actually for...



Unsurprisingly a 4 day Part P course does not cover such nuances!

No but the NICEIC Testing and Certification book does.

And in the check list for MWC the first one on the list is

"Additional (non emergency) lighting points (luminaires and switching on
a single existing circuit)." And it says a MWC is acceptable.

So unless it's a new circuit from the CU you can use a MWC.

Actually you could probably hand in your old school reports and no one
would notice or care.


--
Adam

On 10/06/17 07:44, ARW wrote:
On 09/06/2017 23:15, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/06/17 20:02, ARW wrote:

This one is probably down to your BCOs judgement as to if the EIC you
handed in was a final document or not. If he knew there was extra
electrical work to be done then you should be able to carry on with
the 16th.

All the best mate but this one is down to your BCO unless you think I
have missed something in my reply.



Cheers mate,

I've been working to the 17th the whole way - it was just the procedure
of certification that I'm not sure of:

Is this an MWC or an EIC for additions in a special location to an
existing circuit? Never been sure what a MWC is actually for...



Unsurprisingly a 4 day Part P course does not cover such nuances!

No but the NICEIC Testing and Certification book does.

Cheers - I'm off to amazon...


And in the check list for MWC the first one on the list is

"Additional (non emergency) lighting points (luminaires and switching on
a single existing circuit)." And it says a MWC is acceptable.

So unless it's a new circuit from the CU you can use a MWC.

Thanks Adam. I'll do that then...

Actually you could probably hand in your old school reports and no one
would notice or care.


That's pretty much the case... Literally all I have to do now is plumb
in a bog (after tiling) and this lighting and it should be building
certificate time.

On 10/06/2017 10:37, Tim Watts wrote:
On 10/06/17 07:44, ARW wrote:
On 09/06/2017 23:15, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/06/17 20:02, ARW wrote:

This one is probably down to your BCOs judgement as to if the EIC you
handed in was a final document or not. If he knew there was extra
electrical work to be done then you should be able to carry on with
the 16th.

All the best mate but this one is down to your BCO unless you think I
have missed something in my reply.



Cheers mate,

I've been working to the 17th the whole way - it was just the procedure
of certification that I'm not sure of:

Is this an MWC or an EIC for additions in a special location to an
existing circuit? Never been sure what a MWC is actually for...



Unsurprisingly a 4 day Part P course does not cover such nuances!

No but the NICEIC Testing and Certification book does.

Cheers - I'm off to amazon...

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BKITCslash3.html

Just to make sure you buy the right book


--
Adam

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 12:57:16 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Regulation 542.1.201 has been modified and now requires an additional
earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the
distributor.
Does that mean all TN-S and TN-C-S will require retro-fitting of an
earthing rod?

Do I have to have my own earthing rod, or can eg 100+ flats in a high-rise block share an earthing rod?

Does it differ if the flats' supply is provided by a DNO or a BNO (building network operator)?

Owain

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 12:38:09 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Part 8 Energy efficiency
Installations can also be awarded points for energy
efficiency performance levels.

Woo! Points mean prizes!

Appendix 6 Model forms for certification and reporting

Manufacturers of NCR pads will be pleased.

Owain