"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 05:22:25 +0000, Brian-Gaff wrote:

So lets get this staight, rather than leave the socket and charger on
the floor out of reach, heput the live socket bar on his chest?
Well surely anyone would see that this is going to be very dangerous.

Yes, you'd have to be very unlucky for a mains-to-5V PSU to fail in such a
way that it fed 240V to the 5V end and for water to then conduct that to the
skin. But having the mains end of the PSU on your wet chest is asking for
trouble - it only takes a bit of water to run down into the live pin and
then onto your body, and you have a 240V shock in the making, especially as
the bathwater is probably earthed via the plughole or via a metal bath
(maybe with a bit of enamel missing so the water is touching the metal) and
the water pipes.

Presumably the warning section of the instructions didn't clearly state
the inadvisability of taking a bath with a mains extension socket on your
chest.

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered device in a
bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is trimming my hair. I
make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal) bath is completely dry, and
sit well away from bath taps, shower hose (metal) and anything else that
could be earthed.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , NY
wrote:

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered device in
a bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is trimming my hair. I
make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal) bath is completely dry,
and sit well away from bath taps, shower hose (metal) and anything else
that could be earthed.

Are you in the bath when she's doing that? If so, why?

Sitting on the side, legs into the (empty!) bath - so there is a convenient
place for all the hair clippings to go. The alternative is to put a
groundsheet or something on the carpet in one of the other rooms, and let
that catch all the hair.

En el artículo , Huge
escribió:

Or, as the sign in many labs has it;

"Do not look into laser with remaining eye."

We were wiring up some labs for ethernet a few years ago. They dealt
with some pretty nasty chemicals. There was an emergency high-pressure
shower with a large metal-grate type hinged footpedal outside one of the
labs. All you had to do to activate it was stand on the grid. One of
the lads I was working with kept stepping on it accidentally and getting
drenched which ****ed him off and caused him to stamp around, resulting
in another drenching.

We got him a T-shirt with the "dangerous when wet" symbol.

http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/.../4Tb6nEeLc.png

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 18/03/2017 09:03, ARW wrote:
On 18/03/2017 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/03/2017 18:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 17/03/2017 18:13, Michael Chare wrote:
On 17/03/2017 17:40, Roger Mills wrote:
Could this be the latest candidate?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39307418

So the coroner is to write a prevention of future death report to send
to Apple. I hope they ignore him. I do get fed up with stupid safety
instructions that so often come with product these days.

I think the coroner should actually be writing to the makers of
extension leads insisting that "do not use in the bath" be stamped on
all new units and milk bottles with "open other end" on the base.

It wasn't the Apple charger that killed him it was the mains on the
input pins to the Apple charger immersed in water. An electric fire or
hair drier plugged in would have made him just as dead.

Maybe.
If it were the pins on the charger then where was the path for the
current through his body?
With pins that close the current would drop off quickly as you moved
away.
Maybe the charger didn't have enough isolation and the other end became
part of the path allowing more current through his body?
There isn't enough information to actually know whether the charger
contributed to the death.


Twas the extension cord socket with the charger plugged in

Don't tell the coroner:-)

Basically it was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViyccc2t9w


You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.
We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

En el artículo , ARW aXXXwadsworth@blueyond
er.co.uk escribió:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViyccc2t9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIUJWIT9GrU

2:30 onwards.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 18/03/2017 12:36, NY wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , NY
wrote:

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered
device in a bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is
trimming my hair. I make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal)
bath is completely dry, and sit well away from bath taps, shower hose
(metal) and anything else that could be earthed.

Are you in the bath when she's doing that? If so, why?

Sitting on the side, legs into the (empty!) bath - so there is a
convenient place for all the hair clippings to go. The alternative is to
put a groundsheet or something on the carpet in one of the other rooms,
and let that catch all the hair.

3. Take a chair outdoors.
4. Go to a barber's.

--
Max Demian

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 13:21:03 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

On 18/03/2017 12:36, NY wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , NY
wrote:

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered
device in a bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is
trimming my hair. I make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal)
bath is completely dry, and sit well away from bath taps, shower hose
(metal) and anything else that could be earthed.

Are you in the bath when she's doing that? If so, why?

Sitting on the side, legs into the (empty!) bath - so there is a
convenient place for all the hair clippings to go. The alternative is
to put a groundsheet or something on the carpet in one of the other
rooms, and let that catch all the hair.

3. Take a chair outdoors.
4. Go to a barber's.

SWMBO does mine in the kitchen. Hard sweepable floor, minimal work.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 3/18/2017 9:26 AM, Bob Eager wrote:

SWMBO does mine in the kitchen. Hard sweepable floor, minimal work.

Sensible.
That's what we do.
And a hairdresser's cape-thing, which catches a fair amount of stuff.

After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so something
else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the extension into the
bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and that
made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause death or
paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume
his chest was wet and likewise the above items. Even a none metallic
bath will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 19:21:39 -0000, "Phil L"
wrote:

[snip}

I carried on reading, hoping for something even better like 'Never insert
into anus' but there weren't any more, although 2 of the others had 'hammer'
in the advice: 'never use a hammer on the battery' and 'Never use the
battery as a hammer'

My favourite was a camera that came with a CD containing software. The
instructions said:

WARNING - Do not place computer disk into an audio player then listen
at high volume as this may damage your hearing.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 14:37:19 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so something
else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the extension into the
bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and that
made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause death or
paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume
his chest was wet and likewise the above items. Even a none metallic
bath will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

Will it necessarily with increased use of plastic piping? Most people
don't fill the bath right up to the taps either.

On 18/03/2017 13:00, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , ARW aXXXwadsworth@blueyond
er.co.uk escribió:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViyccc2t9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIUJWIT9GrU

2:30 onwards.


:-)

--
Adam

On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other
parts to be at earth voltage



--
Adam

It happens that Scott formulated :
Will it necessarily with increased use of plastic piping? Most people
don't fill the bath right up to the taps either.

Yes, almost certainly there will be a path to ground from any water in
a bath, irrespective of the bath being plastic or plastic pipe being
used.

Am 17.03.2017 um 22:45 schrieb Tim Watts:


But who are the two scallys at the bus stop with a bag of tinnies?


Doesn't look like beer cans. Aluminium foil?

ARW explained on 18/03/2017 :
On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other parts to
be at earth voltage

It would be very unlikely to find a drain to be dry and clear of any
water absorbing debris. Most plugs have some leakage past the plug seal
anyway.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 13:21:03 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 18/03/2017 12:36, NY wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , NY
wrote:

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered
device in a bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is
trimming my hair. I make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal)
bath is completely dry, and sit well away from bath taps, shower hose
(metal) and anything else that could be earthed.

Are you in the bath when she's doing that? If so, why?

Sitting on the side, legs into the (empty!) bath - so there is a
convenient place for all the hair clippings to go. The alternative is to
put a groundsheet or something on the carpet in one of the other rooms,
and let that catch all the hair.

3. Take a chair outdoors.
4. Go to a barber's.

I've seen a lot of stacked adapters and frayed cables in barber's
shops over the years.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 16:50:52 +0100, Matthias Czech
wrote:

Am 17.03.2017 um 22:45 schrieb Tim Watts:


But who are the two scallys at the bus stop with a bag of tinnies?


Doesn't look like beer cans. Aluminium foil?

Ther is a businees the other side of the road called the Al-Murad
superstore which appears to be a decorating centre.
So I reckon the rolls are lining or wall paper.

G.Harman

On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items. Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

Mine doesn't.
Plastic bath, plastic drains, plastic plumbing.

So we still don't know what return path there was which is the point,
unless you know it then you have to assume the coroner thinks it was via
the charger.

Clive's demonstration shows that you are unlikely to get a shock from
just having live and neutral in the bath. You need something else.


I have practical experience of what happens when you drop mains in water
that you are in from when I was about 8 and I dropped a mains lead in a
fish tank I had my hands in. I didn't really get a shock but I couldn't
pick the mains up when I tried too. It was a few seconds before I
realised what I was doing.

On 18/03/2017 15:51, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW explained on 18/03/2017 :
On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other
parts to be at earth voltage

It would be very unlikely to find a drain to be dry and clear of any
water absorbing debris. Most plugs have some leakage past the plug seal
anyway.

Mine doesn't but it does have an O ring seal.


Sea water has a resistivity of about 0.1 Ohm/metre cubed.
So if you have a surface film in the drain of cross section 1 mm2 the
resistance is ~1 megaohm per metre.
So that is several megaohms by the time it gets to a ground so you need
to find a better path than that to account for electrocution.
I doubt if bath water is more conductive than sea water.

On 18/03/17 00:25, Michael Chare wrote:

Bend signs are the one sign that I pay attention to.



I pay attention to them, but I don't assume the absence of one on a
visible bend is confirmation I can take it at 60

On 18/03/17 15:50, Matthias Czech wrote:
Am 17.03.2017 um 22:45 schrieb Tim Watts:


But who are the two scallys at the bus stop with a bag of tinnies?


Doesn't look like beer cans. Aluminium foil?


Must be for chasing the dragon then...

"Graeme" wrote in message
...
In message , Nightjar
writes

I suspect that those who need them are also among those who won't bother
to read them.

Which begs the question - Are the warnings there for the benefit of the
consumer, or the protection of the manufacturer? The latter seems
obvious.

The warnings to attach chest of drawers to the wall
didn't save IKEA when kids ended up dead that way.

dennis@home presented the following explanation :
So we still don't know what return path there was which is the point, unless
you know it then you have to assume the coroner thinks it was via the
charger.

I very much doubt the return path was via the charger, there will have
been much more effective routes.


Clive's demonstration shows that you are unlikely to get a shock from just
having live and neutral in the bath. You need something else.

As I said, as he also said - He was insulated! There was no path.


I have practical experience of what happens when you drop mains in water that
you are in from when I was about 8 and I dropped a mains lead in a fish tank
I had my hands in. I didn't really get a shock but I couldn't pick the mains
up when I tried too. It was a few seconds before I realised what I was doing.

There will be a voltage gradient between - unless you form an
alternative path, you will only feel the voltage across that gradient.
The nearer your hand gets, the more it gets into the steeper voltage
part of the gradient, the more effect you will feel. That explains why
you could put your hand in, but not near enough to be able to pick it
up.

I doubt someone dropping a mains socket in a bath, with someone in it
would kill them. If however they were daft enough to put the socket
near to their body, or on their body, it would be a different matter
entirely - even more so if placed on their chest, near the heart.

A body's internals are very conductive, just a few thousands of Ohms,
dry skin is quite a good insulator increasing measured values to
mega-Ohms. I have no problems sticking a dry finger across 240v. Wet
that finger (or a body in a bath) and the resistance goes down quite
markedly. Nor is resistance of such things a fixed measurable value,
conductivity can vary with voltage - which is why a 500v meggar is used
to measure mains circuit insulation values, rather than a normal
multimeter.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-03-18, Graeme wrote:
In message , Nightjar
writes

I suspect that those who need them are also among those who won't
bother to read them.

Which begs the question - Are the warnings there for the benefit of the
consumer, or the protection of the manufacturer? The latter seems
obvious.

The latter, of course. Most of these warnings are there because some
anencephalic has done something stupid in the past and complained/sued
about it. So, if it happens again, the mnaufacturer can point at the
warning,
shrug and hang up the 'phone.

Didn’t work for IKEA when their chest of drawers killed kids.

If this 'tard was indeed using a mains extension lead in the
bath, we can but hope that he hasn't managed to reproduce.

wrote
Tim Watts wrote

My IAM (advance driving) observer asked me why I
was slowing down on bends last week. His argument
was: if the bend is bad, it would have a sign.

He's right, and they are far too cautious speed wise too.

Signs can be stolen or vandalised.

In which case there is still the pole there, or the unreadable sign.

No point in slowing down at every bend, particularly ones you
can see around.

Just because there was a sign there last week and not
one this week doesn't mean they've realigned the road.

See above.

On 18/03/2017 15:51, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW explained on 18/03/2017 :
On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other
parts to be at earth voltage

It would be very unlikely to find a drain to be dry and clear of any
water absorbing debris. Most plugs have some leakage past the plug seal
anyway.

Unlikely my arse. You are talking ********.


--
Adam

ARW submitted this idea :
Unlikely my arse. You are talking ********.

The way to prove it, assuming you have a plastic bath and I would
further assume a Meggar, would be to check the insulation resistance
between the metal plug plug hole and an electrical earth. Then you can
report back with your apologies.

My bath is all metal, so not possible for me to do it.

Harry Bloomfield laid this down on his screen :
ARW submitted this idea :
Unlikely my arse. You are talking ********.

The way to prove it, assuming you have a plastic bath and I would further
assume a Meggar, would be to check the insulation resistance between the
metal plug plug hole and an electrical earth. Then you can report back with
your apologies.

My bath is all metal, so not possible for me to do it.

A quick thought - I also suspect there might be a 'capacitive' path to
earth, from the bath water, to other parts surrounding the bath.

"NY" wrote in message
news
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 05:22:25 +0000, Brian-Gaff wrote:

So lets get this staight, rather than leave the socket and charger on
the floor out of reach, heput the live socket bar on his chest?
Well surely anyone would see that this is going to be very dangerous.

Yes, you'd have to be very unlucky for a mains-to-5V PSU to fail in such a
way that it fed 240V to the 5V end and for water to then conduct that to
the skin.

But having the mains end of the PSU on your wet chest is asking for
trouble - it only takes a bit of water to run down into the live pin and
then onto your body, and you have a 240V shock in the making, especially
as the bathwater is probably earthed via the plughole or via a metal bath
(maybe with a bit of enamel missing so the water is touching the metal)
and the water pipes.

Dunno, still can't really see how he managed to fry himself that way.

Even if he somehow managed to get metal at 240V onto the skin of his
chest, hard to see how that would produce the arcing the article claims.

"He suffered severe burns on his chest, arm and hand when the charger
touched the water and died on 11 December, the newspaper said."

"Wife Tanya found him when she returned home and first thought
he had been attacked because his injuries were so bad."

Corse it was the Sun...

Corse the journo may well have mangled the story utterly.

Presumably the warning section of the instructions didn't clearly state
the inadvisability of taking a bath with a mains extension socket on your
chest.

The difficult is that sometimes you need to use a mains-powered device in
a bathroom - eg mains-powered clippers when my wife is trimming my hair.

We dont have the stupid restrictions on electrical outlets in our bathrooms
and mine has a number of them, and the full washing machine as well.

I make sure the (fibreglass, not enamelled metal) bath is completely dry,
and sit well away from bath taps, shower hose (metal) and anything else
that could be earthed.

I dont bother and am standing on the concrete floor with bare
feet and have never had a problem even when the floor is wet.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 18/03/2017 09:03, ARW wrote:
On 18/03/2017 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/03/2017 18:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 17/03/2017 18:13, Michael Chare wrote:
On 17/03/2017 17:40, Roger Mills wrote:
Could this be the latest candidate?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39307418

So the coroner is to write a prevention of future death report to
send
to Apple. I hope they ignore him. I do get fed up with stupid safety
instructions that so often come with product these days.

I think the coroner should actually be writing to the makers of
extension leads insisting that "do not use in the bath" be stamped on
all new units and milk bottles with "open other end" on the base.

It wasn't the Apple charger that killed him it was the mains on the
input pins to the Apple charger immersed in water. An electric fire or
hair drier plugged in would have made him just as dead.

Maybe.
If it were the pins on the charger then where was the path for the
current through his body?
With pins that close the current would drop off quickly as you moved
away.
Maybe the charger didn't have enough isolation and the other end became
part of the path allowing more current through his body?
There isn't enough information to actually know whether the charger
contributed to the death.


Twas the extension cord socket with the charger plugged in

Don't tell the coroner:-)

Basically it was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViyccc2t9w


You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so something
else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the extension into
the bath.
We have no way to know from the reports so far.

Yeah, it isnt even clear just what was on his chest with him in the bath.

I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone

I find that hard to believe if it was a genuine Apple charge. Corse it may
not have been.

and that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis

Yes.

and then the burns were caused over a long period.

That doesn’t sound very plausible, that that would produce this result.
"Wife Tanya found him when she returned home and first thought he had been
attacked because his injuries were so bad."

On Saturday, 18 March 2017 17:41:22 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 18/03/2017 15:51, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW explained on 18/03/2017 :
On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other
parts to be at earth voltage

It would be very unlikely to find a drain to be dry and clear of any
water absorbing debris. Most plugs have some leakage past the plug seal
anyway.

Mine doesn't but it does have an O ring seal.


Sea water has a resistivity of about 0.1 Ohm/metre cubed.
So if you have a surface film in the drain of cross section 1 mm2 the
resistance is ~1 megaohm per metre.
So that is several megaohms by the time it gets to a ground so you need
to find a better path than that to account for electrocution.
I doubt if bath water is more conductive than sea water.

If sat in the bath, you only have to touch a bath tap to get a very good earth,

Rod Speed pretended :
Dunno, still can't really see how he managed to fry himself that way.

Even if he somehow managed to get metal at 240V onto the skin of his
chest, hard to see how that would produce the arcing the article claims.

"He suffered severe burns on his chest, arm and hand when the charger
touched the water and died on 11 December, the newspaper said."

"Wife Tanya found him when she returned home and first thought
he had been attacked because his injuries were so bad."

Corse it was the Sun...

Yes, probably overstated to help sell papers.

I have though seen the results of dry 3ph bus-bar contact, there were
definite signs of burning, from time very limited contact. I can
imagine wet contact, over a more prolonged time due to a static body,
would do much more damage.

On 19/03/2017 07:27, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 18 March 2017 17:41:22 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 18/03/2017 15:51, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW explained on 18/03/2017 :
On 18/03/2017 14:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking dennis@home wrote :
You may notice that he doesn't get a schock from the teaspoon so
something else must happen to get a shock even if he does drop the
extension into the bath.

He didn't get a shock from the spoon because there was no path, he made
clear that he was insulated from ground or earth.

We have no way to know from the reports so far.
I suspect there was some leakage from the charger into the phone and
that made a return path that allowed enough current through to cause
death or paralysis and then the burns were caused over a long period.

It is simple, he rested the 240v mains extension, complete with wall
wart, on his chest. It needs no stretch of the imagination to assume his
chest was wet and likewise the above items.



Even a none metallic bath
will have several paths to ground, via taps and drains.

I am not sure about the drains bit. It may be possible for the other
parts to be at earth voltage

It would be very unlikely to find a drain to be dry and clear of any
water absorbing debris. Most plugs have some leakage past the plug seal
anyway.

Mine doesn't but it does have an O ring seal.


Sea water has a resistivity of about 0.1 Ohm/metre cubed.
So if you have a surface film in the drain of cross section 1 mm2 the
resistance is ~1 megaohm per metre.
So that is several megaohms by the time it gets to a ground so you need
to find a better path than that to account for electrocution.
I doubt if bath water is more conductive than sea water.

If sat in the bath, you only have to touch a bath tap to get a very good earth,


If it is earthed!
If its modern plastic plumbing the chances of it being earth is quite low.
Tap water has a resistivity about 100 times that of sea water so it
wouldn't take much plastic pipe to give a few hundred thousand ohms
resistance in the path.

dennis@home laid this down on his screen :
If it is earthed!
If its modern plastic plumbing the chances of it being earth is quite low.
Tap water has a resistivity about 100 times that of sea water so it wouldn't
take much plastic pipe to give a few hundred thousand ohms resistance in the
path.

Isn't there a requirement for them to be earthed anyway if they are
metal? A 'few hundred ohms' is not nearly enough to protect you anyway.

On 18 Mar 2017 22:53:23 GMT, Huge wrote:

I've used one of those for real. The ground glass stopper came out of
the reaction flask and showered me with the contents, although I cannot
for the life of me remember what it was I was preparing. Stepped
straight in and "Whoosh!"

Whoosh first, ask questions later.

The really tedious thing was going home to get changed in wet clothes

Why not have stock of disposable coveralls (zipped closure rather
than poppers or buttons) next to whoosh chamber?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 19/03/2017 10:53, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home laid this down on his screen :
If it is earthed!
If its modern plastic plumbing the chances of it being earth is quite
low.
Tap water has a resistivity about 100 times that of sea water so it
wouldn't take much plastic pipe to give a few hundred thousand ohms
resistance in the path.

Isn't there a requirement for them to be earthed anyway if they are
metal?


Bonded maybe, but not earthed. Although that bonding will in most cases
earth them.

--
Adam

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
dennis@home laid this down on his screen :
If it is earthed!
If its modern plastic plumbing the chances of it being earth is quite
low.
Tap water has a resistivity about 100 times that of sea water so it
wouldn't take much plastic pipe to give a few hundred thousand ohms
resistance in the path.

Isn't there a requirement for them to be earthed anyway if they are metal?
A 'few hundred ohms' is not nearly enough to protect you anyway.

I got fairly hefty tingle from the aerial socket of a TV.

I had various devices connected to the TV: PC via TV aerial socket, VCR via
aerial and phono audio, hifi via audio phono.

One day I unplugged the aerial lead from the PC (which was the only thing
that was earthed) with one hand on the metal aerial plug and the other
holding the PC case. And the jolt as the aerial plug was no longer connected
to earth was very noticeable.

It took a long time with my voltmeter going round to each suspect device in
turn until I found it was the TV. There was about 130 VAC between the TV's
aerial socket screen and mains earth, as measured with a high-resistance
volt meter. Even with about 100 kilohm resistor in parallel with the meter
to simulate my body resistance (I didn't fancy a repeat shock, even for
scientific purposes!) there was about 50 V - not dangerous but enough to be
painful.

Trading Standards and Panasonic didn't seem at all interested and said that
it was "within safety specifications".


My water pipes in my house are all copper. Even the rising main is metal -
lead pipe between the house and the pipes in the street (which would be
either plastic or cast iron depending on age). So even without the statutory
earth strap, the taps would be well earthed and so present a nice route to
earth from any mains device in the bath. The only plastic pipes I've seen
were the rising main in my previous house, but everything from the stop tap
onwards was standard 15 or 22 mm copper pipe. Do some modern houses have
plastic pipes between rising main, bath taps, boiler, hot water cylinder
etc.

NY has brought this to us :
Trading Standards and Panasonic didn't seem at all interested and said that
it was "within safety specifications".

Assuming no fault, I would agree. It is quite normal for there to be
some voltage on those sockets, but the current will be absolutely
minimal. The socket will be capacitively coupled to the mains.

Any unearthed metal work on a double insulated appliance will have some
capacitively coupled voltage on it. The brrr you get, when lightly
touching it and earth, is quite normal and not dangerous.

To suffer injury, both voltage and current flow is needed.

On 18/03/2017 20:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW submitted this idea :
Unlikely my arse. You are talking ********.

The way to prove it, assuming you have a plastic bath and I would
further assume a Meggar, would be to check the insulation resistance
between the metal plug plug hole and an electrical earth. Then you can
report back with your apologies.

My bath is all metal, so not possible for me to do it.



OK so this is what I got at 500V.

https://youtu.be/wipfPEhacmU

My apologies consist of my middle finger and a go **** yourself.



--
Adam