On 06/03/17 19:34, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that NY formulated :
I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan
(Lynton Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s,
I'm *sure* we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I
was about 10 at the time, but I was at an age when anything
"different" stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

I'm not sure when the 12S use began, but I don't think it was around in
1970. Caravans back then were much more basic - no fridge, no batteries
gas lighting. Maybe mid 1990's they became more common as they were
fitted with more luxuries. 12N - N stands for Normal, 12S the S is
Supplementary.


Yes - we retrofitted a big-ass leisure battery to our last caravan. It
lived in the wardrobe, in a plastic bread bin (to deal with spill of
acid if that were to happen).

We tweaked the car - ran a 20A rated big fat wire to the alternator main
bolt (with a 20A local fuse there). In the boot, we put that through a
Schottky diode then onto the 12N socket, plus a 3pin metal socket in the
boot[1].

The diode prevent the caravan battery trying to back feed into the car
(ditto point [1] below).

In the caravan, we took the local battery and the car supply from the
trailer plug to a changeover switch on a plastic box on the wardrobe
that I made. This had a voltage sensor (741 op amp) and a relay and if
the car voltage dropped to about 11.5V it cut power so the car had
enough to start. Then we flicked the switch to the local battery. That
way, the local battery did us for 2 weeks with the car supplying most of
the power and the battery just making up any shortfall.

That was running several fluorescent lights, water pump, and a tv.

I did try to make a voltage booster so the car could pump some charge
into the caravan battery whilst parked, but I couldn't make it work.


[1] My mum was disabled (stroke left her weak and unable to walk long
distances) so she had an electric scooter. That went in the boot and
plugged into the 3 pin socket and charged in the same way as the
caravan, except it got charged on every day out - which surprisingly,
seemed sufficient to keep it charged. So the diode again prevented the
gel batteries from blowing up trying to start the car.

At 0.6V forward drop, it did not seem to impeded the ability of the
14.4V on the alternator from charging stuff.

On 06/03/17 21:46, NY wrote:

Ours had a gas/electric fridge: gas when stationary, so as not to drain
the car battery, and electric when moving, because the draught caused by
the caravan moving at 40 mph (*) would blow out the gas flame.

That and you are supposed to turn the gas off at the bottle when towing


It had both gas lights (with mantles), and 6" 12V fluorescent lights
which made an infernal whistling that my sister and I could hear but my
parents (being no longer in the first flush of youth) couldn't.

If the 12S connector hadn't yet been introduced, I wonder how switched
12V was conveyed to the fridge

It wasn't usually. But people could work around it - simple switch you
had to remember to operate when stopping for any length of time, voltage
sensor to engage only when the voltage went high - all sorts of weird
and wonderful workarounds.

and I wonder if the 12N had an unofficial
modification to use one of the two tail light pins for switched 12V,
with both rear lights being fed from the other pin. Unless we always
drove with the side lights on :-) I'm *sure* I only remember one 7-pin
plug. Maybe there was some wholly non-standard connector for that one
extra wire.

The one thing I don't remember was having to go through any elaborate
levelling procedure so the fridge would work properly, with wedges under
the wheels, whereas my wife who had a motor-caravan before I met her
said that it was essential to jiggle the vehicle on wedges under each of
its four wheels until it was level in two dimensions. We just shoved a
bit of wood on the ground at each corner and lowered each jack until it
pressed the wood against the ground but without actually lifting the
caravan off the ground. As long as the caravan didn't rock, who cared if
the floor sloped slightly. Were we lucky or did earlier gas fridges not
need to be kept dead level when they were turned on? I do wonder whether
a couple of screw threads operated by the jack handle, to tilt the
fridge until it was level, might have been easier than having to raise
some of the wheels by driving up ramps until the whole vehicle was level.

We always understood that the fridge should be levelled - we stuck a
spirit level in the ice box (flat bottom) and tweaked the legs after
finding vaguely flat ground.

My parents sold the caravan in 1976 when they bought a holiday cottage
in the Yorkshire Dales which they renovated each weekend and which they
still have.



(*) I remember the excitement when the law was changed to allow caravans
to go at up to 50 mph, providing the car's and caravan's weights were
printed somewhere prominent on the caravan (grandpa hand-lettered it on
the removable flap for the fridge burner), the caravan was no more than
a certain proportion of the car's weight, and a "50" sticker (white
lettering on a black disc) was displayed in the rear window of the
caravan.

Ah yes - I remember...

I also remember we were lucky if we got to 50 with a 1300 Fiat puling a
caravan at the upper end of its permitted loading! Went to the Forest of
Dean once (or was it Wales) and stayed in 3rd gear most of the way.


Did yours have that stabiliser (anti snake) arm thingy?

On 06/03/17 22:33, Brian Reay wrote:
On 06/03/2017 21:46, NY wrote:

Ours had a gas/electric fridge: gas when stationary, so as not to drain
the car battery, and electric when moving, because the draught caused by
the caravan moving at 40 mph (*) would blow out the gas flame.


That wasn't the reason. Until quite recently, it was illegal to operate
gas appliances on the move. Now there are special 'drive safe'
regulators and hoses which you can use with some appliances on the move.
Some motorhomes have them so you can use the gas heaters while on the
move. There is a sensor in the regulator which detects an impact and
special sensors in the hoses to detect ruptures.


Fascinating...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 06/03/17 19:16, NY wrote:

I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton
Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm
*sure* we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I was
about 10 at the time, but I was at an age when anything "different"
stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

As a kid who grew up caravanning I can add some authority to this:

12N was the "basic" connector. Most people only had that. It had one
permanent live for supply.

Really? http://www.towingandtrailers.co.uk/shop/132/133/142/ doesn't mention
permanently live. Have some of the pins been "re-purposed" over the years?
If you plugged a modern caravan into an old car or an old caravan into a
modern car (all with 7-pin) would you get some strange results like fog
lights permanently on or fridge only coming on if car's fog lights are on?

On 06/03/17 22:54, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 06/03/17 19:16, NY wrote:

I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton
Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm
*sure* we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I was
about 10 at the time, but I was at an age when anything "different"
stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

As a kid who grew up caravanning I can add some authority to this:

12N was the "basic" connector. Most people only had that. It had one
permanent live for supply.

Really? http://www.towingandtrailers.co.uk/shop/132/133/142/ doesn't
mention permanently live. Have some of the pins been "re-purposed" over
the years? If you plugged a modern caravan into an old car or an old
caravan into a modern car (all with 7-pin) would you get some strange
results like fog lights permanently on or fridge only coming on if car's
fog lights are on?

Yes - there was a practical standard for a 12V live pin - pin 2, instead
of the fog light which not many people had in any shape or form in the 70s.

On 06/03/2017 20:27, Bill Wright wrote:
On 06/03/2017 12:32, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you
turn the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

They're separately fused on my Merc and my Transit.

Bill

All the cars that I have owned have the left and right side
tail/side-lights separately fused and a single fuse for the
brake-lights. Trailer wiring matches that.

Steve W

NY presented the following explanation :
If the 12S connector hadn't yet been introduced, I wonder how switched 12V
was conveyed to the fridge and I wonder if the 12N had an unofficial
modification to use one of the two tail light pins for switched 12V, with
both rear lights being fed from the other pin. Unless we always drove with
the side lights on :-) I'm *sure* I only remember one 7-pin plug. Maybe
there was some wholly non-standard connector for that one extra wire.

There were two specs for the 12N. The later one has no provision for a
12v supply, I suspect what might have been a 12v supply on the early
version, became the fog light terminal - hence the need to introduce a
12S additional socket. The change came around 1998-ish.

The original 12v supply on the 12N wasn't intended to supply such a
heavy load as a fridge, but back then the standard wasn't really much
of a standard. You would tend to have to test how car and caravan had
been wired and make adjustments. Often a relay would be used, operated
by the charge warning light, to switch that 12v power.

Modern fridges are able to operate from gas, 240v, or 12v when on the
move. The 12v is not nearly as effective as the gas or 240v - usually
they can just about hold the temperature down enough to cope.

Tim Watts used his keyboard to write :

Did yours have that stabiliser (anti snake) arm thingy?

They were very effective and more effective I think, than the modern
coupling with built in friction.

On 06/03/2017 18:43, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
NY formulated on Monday :
7-pin doesn't have a feed for reversing lights, whereas 13-pin does.
I'm not sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right
tail lights (when they are both always on together) rather than using
one of those for reversing lights. Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a
permanently-live feed for internal lights and electric fridge, so I'm
not sure how we powered those when we had a caravan in the early 70s.
I wonder whether our cars and caravan had to be modified to use one of
the duplicate tail-light pins as a switched live for the fridge.

7pin does have reversing light feed, fridge and internal caravan lights.

The original 12N 7 pin just had the basic essential road lighting
circuits. The 12S added as a later upgrade to the 12N, had reversing
light feed, plus fridge and battery charge, via a relay or voltage
controlled relay, extra earth terminals and a reverse sensor/spare.

The 15pin replaces both 12N and 12S with a single socket and plug, which
is supposedly more robust.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s there was a plug and socket available
(possibly 13-pin, but I can't remember) that had the same round pins as
the normal 7-pin 12N, with additional flat pins around the outside edge.
This was a far better system than the current one, as it gave all the
extra connections required, while still allowing a 7-pin, 12N trailer
plug to be plugged in, ignoring all the extra connections where they
were no required - no adapters required.

SteveW

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights
weere separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking
lights, controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a
hangover from this convention - which is, I think - now illegal


It is still available on some modern cars. However, using it would be
contrary to the UK Lighting Regulations.

As I said earlier it's a requirement in some countries - or was. Namely
Germany. Hence German made cars having it - even those made in RHD. All my
BMWs had, and so does my present Porsche. The large Fords at one time were
only made in Germany.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:27:27 -0000, NY wrote:

I've always wondered how the indicator mechanism managed to turn off the
brake lights on one side of a car in the days when the same bulb was
used both for brake and indicator, before separate bulbs (one showing
orange) became mandatory. You need the brake light to come on
permanently if the car is not indicating, but to be modulated on one
side by the flashing circuit if the car is indicating. Dead easy with
modern logic, but not so easy with relays.

Eh? **** easy with switches and relays (fixed pitch font required):

Ind SW
o--- Left
+---------+
+V ---+---| Flasher |---o-- Rest
| +---------+
| o--- Right ---+---------- RHS Front Ind
| |
| Brake SW +---+-----+
| o--- NC --- NO ---o Relay |
| / | |
+-----------o | o---------- RHS Brake Light
| / |
o--- NO --- NC ---o |
+---------+

LHS ommited for clarity but just has the relay with its NO and NC
contacts paralled with the RHS relay and common to the LHS brake
light. All switching is SPDT, (center off for the indicator
switch...).

Rest:
All open circuit, no lights on.

Brake:
Circuit via NO brake switch and NC relays to brake lights. Brake
lights on until brake switch is no longer made.

Indicate:
Current flows through flasher and relevant side front bulbs they
light and the relay energises causing the same side brake light to
come on via the brake light switch NC and relay NO. The thermo
electric flasher unit regularly interupts the +V causing all the
relevant sides lights to flash together.

Indicate & Brake:
As above except the relay energising switches the brake light off.
The relevant sides front and back lights flash in anti phase. The
other side brake light stays on via brake switch NO and that sides NC
relay contact.

Simples.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 07-Mar-17 12:39 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights
weere separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking
lights, controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a
hangover from this convention - which is, I think - now illegal


It is still available on some modern cars. However, using it would be
contrary to the UK Lighting Regulations.

As I said earlier it's a requirement in some countries - or was. Namely
Germany. Hence German made cars having it - even those made in RHD. All my
BMWs had, and so does my present Porsche. The large Fords at one time were
only made in Germany.


I found it rather difficult to be sure. The requirements in Germany read
much the same as in the UK: Vehicles and trailers parked on the road at
night must be lit, with an exemption for vehicles (but not trailers)
parked in a marked parking bay or on the road and adequately lit by
street lighting. However, it is unclear from the sites I could find
whether the German regulations permit the use of a single light, while
the UK regulations definitely do not.

--
--

Colin Bignell

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:11:38 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

That's because drivers were mistaking brake lights for fog warning
lights and driving into stationary traffic.

Seems remarkably daft to drive into traffic that you think is
braking.


There are enough stupid people out there to ensure that it will happen
on a regular basis and it does!

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 17:45:11 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 06/03/17 16:27, NY wrote:

I wonder if it does go back to earlier cars being able to switch on the
tail/side lights on just one side when parking,

The MINI can do it but I forgot how.
Ignition off, all lights set to off. Hold indicator stalk in
appropriate position for side wanted for a second or two.
An illuminated P with light "Rays" appears in the multifunction
display in the rev counter to confirm.

That's how it is on an R56 registered in Dec 11.

G.Harman

On 07/03/17 11:34, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 17:45:11 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 06/03/17 16:27, NY wrote:

I wonder if it does go back to earlier cars being able to switch on the
tail/side lights on just one side when parking,

The MINI can do it but I forgot how.
Ignition off, all lights set to off. Hold indicator stalk in
appropriate position for side wanted for a second or two.
An illuminated P with light "Rays" appears in the multifunction
display in the rev counter to confirm.

That's how it is on an R56 registered in Dec 11.

G.Harman


Ah - thank you

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 17:45:11 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 06/03/17 16:27, NY wrote:

I wonder if it does go back to earlier cars being able to switch on the
tail/side lights on just one side when parking,

The MINI can do it but I forgot how.
Ignition off, all lights set to off. Hold indicator stalk in
appropriate position for side wanted for a second or two.
An illuminated P with light "Rays" appears in the multifunction
display in the rev counter to confirm.

That's how it is on an R56 registered in Dec 11.

It's interesting that cars are still being designed with this feature if
it's no longer to park with only one front and back light showing in places
where you need to use parking lights. I bet a lot of people think "if the
feature is there, it must be legal to use it".

Strange that I've never been aware of it in any of the cars I've owned
(Renault 5 Mark 1 and 2, VW Golf Mark 2 and 3, Peugeot 306 and 308). Maybe
I've just not read the instruction manuals in sufficient detail, because
it's never been something that I've thought to look for :-)

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
As I said earlier it's a requirement in some countries - or was. Namely
Germany. Hence German made cars having it - even those made in RHD. All my
BMWs had, and so does my present Porsche. The large Fords at one time were
only made in Germany.


I found it rather difficult to be sure. The requirements in Germany read
much the same as in the UK: Vehicles and trailers parked on the road at
night must be lit, with an exemption for vehicles (but not trailers)
parked in a marked parking bay or on the road and adequately lit by
street lighting. However, it is unclear from the sites I could find
whether the German regulations permit the use of a single light, while
the UK regulations definitely do not.

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine and
lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand side
light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the left.
Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of course at one
time in the UK you needed parking lights too.

--
*You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
NY wrote:
The MINI can do it but I forgot how.
Ignition off, all lights set to off. Hold indicator stalk in
appropriate position for side wanted for a second or two.
An illuminated P with light "Rays" appears in the multifunction
display in the rev counter to confirm.

That's how it is on an R56 registered in Dec 11.

It's interesting that cars are still being designed with this feature if
it's no longer to park with only one front and back light showing in
places where you need to use parking lights. I bet a lot of people
think "if the feature is there, it must be legal to use it".

I really can't see any car maker designing it in if no longer needed
anywhere? I've used the feature in the UK too. May not be needed, but may
just make the car more visible.

Strange that I've never been aware of it in any of the cars I've owned
(Renault 5 Mark 1 and 2, VW Golf Mark 2 and 3, Peugeot 306 and 308).
Maybe I've just not read the instruction manuals in sufficient detail,
because it's never been something that I've thought to look for :-)

Perhaps the really large quantities of non German spec VWs made meant it
made sense to save the few extra pennies.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 07/03/2017 14:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine and
lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand side
light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the left.
Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of course at one
time in the UK you needed parking lights too.



You still do!

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:32:34 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 14:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine and
lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand side
light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the left.
Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of course at one
time in the UK you needed parking lights too.



You still do!

Not in a 30mph or less limit if you are parked in the direction of
traffic flow. Way back that wasn't the case but an often used
accessory was a clip on light that showed white to the front and red
to the rear that was clipped to the rain gutter of the car on the
offside and roughly in the middle as required.
This meant only the load of one lamp being taken from the battery, and
even if the battery went a bit too flat to start most cars of that era
had a starting handle. As cars progressed the manufacturers built the
ability to leave the off side lamps on for parking, two lamps now but
batteries and charging systems had progressed.
Meanwhile our law changed so you don't actually have to use any lamps
in 30 limits, but I occasionally use the parking lamp facility as a
belt and braces , 30 mph limit ,no pavements, no street lighting
narrow single track lane with field hedge on other side and slight
bend. 99.9% of the time our vehicles are off road completely but
occasionally we have to shuttle to get a visitor in and park on the
edge for a bit. Dark Winter evenings are the most dangerous from
about 15.00 , School run time

G.Harman

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:32:34 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 14:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine
and lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand
side light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the
left. Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of
course at one time in the UK you needed parking lights too.



You still do!

Not in a 30mph or less limit if you are parked in the direction of
traffic flow. Way back that wasn't the case but an often used accessory
was a clip on light that showed white to the front and red to the rear
that was clipped to the rain gutter of the car on the offside and roughly
in the middle as required.

My father had one with an electromagnet to hold it on the car body. Fine
when there were steel bodied cars

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 07/03/2017 17:30, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:32:34 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 14:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine and
lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand side
light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the left.
Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of course at one
time in the UK you needed parking lights too.



You still do!

Not in a 30mph or less limit if you are parked in the direction of
traffic flow. Way back that wasn't the case but an often used
accessory was a clip on light that showed white to the front and red
to the rear that was clipped to the rain gutter of the car on the
offside and roughly in the middle as required.
This meant only the load of one lamp being taken from the battery, and
even if the battery went a bit too flat to start most cars of that era
had a starting handle. As cars progressed the manufacturers built the
ability to leave the off side lamps on for parking, two lamps now but
batteries and charging systems had progressed.
Meanwhile our law changed so you don't actually have to use any lamps
in 30 limits, but I occasionally use the parking lamp facility as a
belt and braces , 30 mph limit ,no pavements, no street lighting

You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 07/03/2017 17:30, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:32:34 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 14:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As I said, all my German made cars have this. Switch off the engine and
lights. Move the indicator to the right, and only the right hand side
light and tail light come on. Similarly with the indictor to the left.
Which says to me this is or was a requirement in Germany. Of course at one
time in the UK you needed parking lights too.



You still do!

Not in a 30mph or less limit if you are parked in the direction of
traffic flow. Way back that wasn't the case but an often used
accessory was a clip on light that showed white to the front and red
to the rear that was clipped to the rain gutter of the car on the
offside and roughly in the middle as required.
This meant only the load of one lamp being taken from the battery, and
even if the battery went a bit too flat to start most cars of that era
had a starting handle. As cars progressed the manufacturers built the
ability to leave the off side lamps on for parking, two lamps now but
batteries and charging systems had progressed.
Meanwhile our law changed so you don't actually have to use any lamps
in 30 limits, but I occasionally use the parking lamp facility as a
belt and braces , 30 mph limit ,no pavements, no street lighting

You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.

The police round here don't consider street lights necessary - just a 30mph
limit.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:10:59 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:



Meanwhile our law changed so you don't actually have to use any lamps
in 30 limits, but I occasionally use the parking lamp facility as a
belt and braces , 30 mph limit ,no pavements, no street lighting

You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.


Don't see any mention of streetlights in the section below which I
have cut and pasted from the Highway Code online.

250.Cars, goods vehicles not exceeding 1525 kg unladen weight, invalid
carriages,
motorcycles and pedal cycles may be parked without lights on a road
(or lay-by) with a
speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) or less if they are
„h at least 10 metres (32 feet) away from any junction, close to the
kerb and facing
in the direction of the traffic flow
„h in a recognised parking place or lay-by.



So you are wrong on that point .
nearest junction , well that is about 300 metres away, What does the
highway code say , at least 10 metres.
So I'm clear on that point.

is it in a lay by or recognised parking place?
Well it is not marked as such but the gravel indentation where I park
it on those rare occasions is in front of the house next door which
happens to be called the "Old Police House" , when it was still in use
when my missus first moved here the bobby kept the panda car in the
same spot overnight so there is good precedent.

Is it next to a kerb, yes the gravel patch has an edging of bricks
about 6" from the Old Police stations hedge.
I wrote no pavements not no kerb and kerb is what the Highway code
says.
So at the moment unless you can pull some other rules out of the hat
that are not listed below instead of a vague statement of
"The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights."

I'll maintain I can park there legally without lights and switching on
the offside parking lamps is a belt and brace measure but not
required by law or your flawed opinion.


G.Harman

wrote in message
...
I'll maintain I can park there legally without lights and switching on
the offside parking lamps is a belt and brace measure but not
required by law or your flawed opinion.

Presumably as more and more cars are fitted with side and tail lights which
use LEDs rather than 6W filament bulbs, there will be less and less need for
the one-sided parking lights because LEDs use such a small amount of power
that it doesn't matter whether 2 or 4 lamps are lit - the car battery will
still be fine in the morning.

On 07/03/2017 22:16, NY wrote:

Presumably as more and more cars are fitted with side and tail lights
which use LEDs rather than 6W filament bulbs, there will be less and
less need for the one-sided parking lights because LEDs use such a small
amount of power that it doesn't matter whether 2 or 4 lamps are lit -
the car battery will still be fine in the morning.

I've never actually had a car that wouldn't start if you left all four
marker lights on overnight. They are only 6W add another 6W for the
numberplate lamp and you get a current drain of about 2A. So its about
30% of a typical batteries capacity if its a small engined car and less
for a diesel or large car.

If it can't start after being on overnight its time to get it fixed.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

They could be bought as a clip on unit to the driver's window - but many
fitted them to the door pillar between front an back doors, and properly
wired in with a switch on the dash. Car's didn't have cigarette lighters
in those days, so you'd need to fit some sort of plug and socket anyway.

And IIRC, used something like a 3 watt lamp.

1 amp would be the load of one sidelight and tail light.

--
*A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 07/03/2017 22:16, NY wrote:

Presumably as more and more cars are fitted with side and tail lights
which use LEDs rather than 6W filament bulbs, there will be less and
less need for the one-sided parking lights because LEDs use such a small
amount of power that it doesn't matter whether 2 or 4 lamps are lit -
the car battery will still be fine in the morning.

I've never actually had a car that wouldn't start if you left all four
marker lights on overnight. They are only 6W add another 6W for the
numberplate lamp and you get a current drain of about 2A. So its about
30% of a typical batteries capacity if its a small engined car and less
for a diesel or large car.

If it can't start after being on overnight its time to get it fixed.

My last car had twin sidelights each side, two lamps in each tail light,
and two numberplate lights. And then all the panel lamps. So rather more
than 2A. But it had the German parking light system anyway, which
automatically reduced the load to under 1 amp when used.

I'd hope cars with LEDs would be less still.

--
*I did a theatrical performance about puns. It was a play on words.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 07-Mar-17 8:10 PM, dennis@home wrote:
....
The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.

Oddly enough, the UK lighting regulations don't seem to make any
reference to street lights being necessary for the exemption; only a
30mph limit.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 08/03/2017 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

dennis@home wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

Though they were still being sold in the 70's

On 08-Mar-17 9:20 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/03/2017 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be
mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

They were widely used in the 1950s, even on lit roads, but less so in
the 1960s. IIRC, there was a new set of lighting regulations around 1964
and I suspect that was when the rules changed.


--
--

Colin Bignell

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 08/03/2017 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then. Also there have to be two
red at the rear and two white at the fron that mark the edges of the
vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be mounted
on the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front
white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

and in the 50's/60s.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 08/03/2017 09:20, Nightjar wrote:
On 07-Mar-17 8:10 PM, dennis@home wrote:
...
The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.

Oddly enough, the UK lighting regulations don't seem to make any
reference to street lights being necessary for the exemption; only a
30mph limit.



I am pretty sure they used to but it appears that not since 1985.
Pretty silly really.
Its also silly that cars are exempt even though many of them are heavier
than 1500kg when goods vehicles are not exempt.
I can just see people rushing out to clean their reflectors after a
crash just so they can claim they were parked legally, you do have to
have clean, ie. working reflectors to park without lights even though it
doesn't mention that either.

On 08/03/2017 09:23, Andy Burns wrote:
dennis@home wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

Though they were still being sold in the 70's


There are many things sold that are illegal to use.
Being able to buy something is not a perfect guide to them being legal.

In article m,
dennis@home wrote:
On 08/03/2017 09:20, Nightjar wrote:
On 07-Mar-17 8:10 PM, dennis@home wrote:
...
The no lights in a 30 zone have a lot of restrictions including not
parking near junctions and having street lights.

Oddly enough, the UK lighting regulations don't seem to make any
reference to street lights being necessary for the exemption; only a
30mph limit.



I am pretty sure they used to but it appears that not since 1985.
Pretty silly really.
Its also silly that cars are exempt even though many of them are heavier
than 1500kg when goods vehicles are not exempt.
I can just see people rushing out to clean their reflectors after a
crash just so they can claim they were parked legally, you do have to
have clean, ie. working reflectors to park without lights even though it
doesn't mention that either.

but since reflectors are compulsary on cars, there should be no need to
mention it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 08/03/2017 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be
mounted on the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the
front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

They were legal in the '50s, dennis. Why not just take note of what those
who know about such things say?

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 08-Mar-17 9:20 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/03/2017 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
You need to use parking lights by law then.
Also there have to be two red at the rear and two white at the fron that
mark the edges of the vehicle.

No. Those old parking lights were a single unit which had to be
mounted on
the offside of the car. The back of the lamp being red, the front white.

I know what they were, they aren't legal to use as parking lights in the
UK. They may have been in the '20s.

They were widely used in the 1950s, even on lit roads, but less so in
the 1960s. IIRC, there was a new set of lighting regulations around 1964
and I suspect that was when the rules changed.

I'm trying to date when they were required by my father's cars.

I'd guess at most of the '50s. Of course you could leave the sidelights on
if you preferred. ;-)

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
but since reflectors are compulsary on cars, there should be no need to
mention it.

The legal requirement for rear reflectors came in round about the same
time as the need for that parking light. As did the requirement for twin
tail lights. All somewhere round about the start of the '50s. I remember
my father had a '40s Morris Minor which had to be converted to twin tail
lights. It did appear to have two as built, but only one wired up. Talk
about penny pinching. ;-)

--
*Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/03/2017 11:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
but since reflectors are compulsary on cars, there should be no need to
mention it.

The legal requirement for rear reflectors came in round about the same
time as the need for that parking light. As did the requirement for twin
tail lights. All somewhere round about the start of the '50s. I remember
my father had a '40s Morris Minor which had to be converted to twin tail
lights. It did appear to have two as built, but only one wired up. Talk
about penny pinching. ;-)


I had a hillman avenger, no reversing lights.
To fit them you needed the switch and two bulbs, all the wiring and
lamps were already there. Or was that the Triumph herald and you just
needed the bulbs on the avenger? One of them needed the switch the other
didn't. That was penny pinching.