For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on my
trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket, as I
don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a
VW manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I
could order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of these?


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 06-Mar-17 11:57 AM, Michael Chare wrote:
For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on my
trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket, as I
don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a
VW manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I
could order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of these?



They are the continental standard and have been around for many years.
You can get 13 pin to 7 pin or 2 x 7 pin adaptors to use them with UK plugs.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 06/03/17 11:57, Michael Chare wrote:
For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on my
trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket, as I
don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a
VW manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I
could order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of these?



13 pin have been around for at least a decade and are the defacto
standard now. You can get an adaptor block plug that converts to 7 pin
trailer, so that should be the easiest solution.

I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to have
the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so there's
another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Or stick a 13 pin plug on your trailers (it's just a subset of pins).

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
news
For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on my
trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket, as I
don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a VW
manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I could
order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of these?

The pins on a 13-pin connector are smaller diameter (in order to fit them
into the same diameter of connector) which could in theory limit the amount
of current that you can draw. In practice, I don't think it's an issue as
long as the pins and contacts are not corroded.

We had a towbar and 7-pin electrics fitted to our car for the bike rack that
we had at the time. We've since got a newer, lighter, tilting rack which
happens to have 13-pin electrics. All we needed to do was to buy a 7-to-13
converter.

https://www.autobutler.co.uk/wiki/7-and-13-pin says that the 13-pin
connector is designed to be more watertight and to have a twist-lock.

7-pin doesn't have a feed for reversing lights, whereas 13-pin does. I'm not
sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right tail lights
(when they are both always on together) rather than using one of those for
reversing lights. Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a permanently-live feed
for internal lights and electric fridge, so I'm not sure how we powered
those when we had a caravan in the early 70s. I wonder whether our cars and
caravan had to be modified to use one of the duplicate tail-light pins as a
switched live for the fridge.

13-pin (http://darsi.org/13-pin-wiring-diagram) again has the superfluous
split between left and right tail lights (are there some countries with cars
that can turn on one tail light without the other, for it to have been
included in the spec?). It has reversing lights and both permanent-live and
fridge; maybe the distinction between the two is that fridge only comes on
when the ignition is on whereas permanent is unswitched.

On 06/03/2017 11:57, Michael Chare wrote:
For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on my
trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket, as I
don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a
VW manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I
could order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of these?



I fitted a Vauxhall 13 pin kit to mine as it was only £85 and was the
same as the witter one.
It integrates into the canbus so it knows if there is a trailer and if
the lights are faulty.

I use one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-601.../dp/B003ZYTH16

To plug in my trailer board for my bike rack and tiny trailer.

You can get cheaper ones these days if you search on amazon.

If I had a caravan I would fit a 13pin plug to it as they are far better.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to have
the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so there's
another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light cluster
but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the other, to
warrant two separate pins in the connector.

In article , NY
wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights weere
separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking lights,
controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a hangover from
this convention - which is, I think - now illegal

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 06/03/2017 12:37, charles wrote:
In article , NY
wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights weere
separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking lights,
controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a hangover from
this convention - which is, I think - now illegal


I don't think its illegal, however if you are required to have parking
lights they don't satisfy the law so using them where you need parking
lights would be illegal. You can use them when you don't legally need to
if it makes things safer.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , NY
wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights weere
separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking lights,
controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a hangover from
this convention - which is, I think - now illegal

Ah. I wonder if that's it. As far as I know, none of my cars (Renault 5
Marks 1 and 2, VW Golfs Mark 2 and 3, Peugeot 306 and 308) have had that
feature. But then as I always turn off the indicator when I park (part of
the "post-flight drill" that includes waggle gear lever to make sure it's in
neutral, put handbrake on, turn engine off) I'd probably never have noticed
it even if the car did have that feature.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
I don't think its illegal, however if you are required to have parking
lights they don't satisfy the law so using them where you need parking
lights would be illegal. You can use them when you don't legally need to
if it makes things safer.

I'm always amazed that having only one rear fog light is legal, given that
in thick fog the fog lights take over from the tail lights as defining the
car's width. My previous cars have come with only the off-side foglight
fitting having a bulb, so I added one on the nearside to make sure all the
lights were doubled, as for brake and tail. The latest one has only a red
light on the offside, and only a reversing light on the nearside which makes
it a pain trying to reverse at night and there's no light illuminating the
hedge/gate-post/wall on the offside (I put my fog light on to light up that
side!). I was once stopped in a marked turn-right lane in the middle of the
road, indicating right, in thick fog. I saw a car come speeding up behind me
(going far too fast) and swerve at the last minute, presumably when he saw
my much dimmer tail light and realised that I wasn't a motorbike after all.

I knew someone who was killed when he cycled into a skip that had been
parked on the road, illuminated only by a red light on the offside. The
inquest suggested that he may have mistaken it for a motorbike parked facing
the oncoming traffic (ie on the RHS of the road) and aimed for the unlit
side which he thought was clear road.

In article , NY
wrote:
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , NY
wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail
lights. Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon
as you turn the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side
without the other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights
weere separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking
lights, controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a
hangover from this convention - which is, I think - now illegal

Ah. I wonder if that's it. As far as I know, none of my cars (Renault 5
Marks 1 and 2, VW Golfs Mark 2 and 3, Peugeot 306 and 308) have had that
feature. But then as I always turn off the indicator when I park (part of
the "post-flight drill" that includes waggle gear lever to make sure
it's in neutral, put handbrake on, turn engine off) I'd probably never
have noticed it even if the car did have that feature.

having learned to drive in a hilly arae, I always used to make sure the car
was parked in gear. I say "used to" since I now have an automatic and that
has a park position - effectively in gear.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"charles" wrote in message
...
As I always turn off the indicator when I park (part of
the "post-flight drill" that includes waggle gear lever to make sure
it's in neutral, put handbrake on, turn engine off) I'd probably never
have noticed it even if the car did have that feature.

having learned to drive in a hilly arae, I always used to make sure the
car
was parked in gear. I say "used to" since I now have an automatic and that
has a park position - effectively in gear.

Good point. On a steep hill I always park in gear: first if I'm facing
uphill and reverse if I'm facing downhill so that the car will always be
propelled uphill (which is harder for it to do against the handbrake than
downhill) if I try to start in gear - lessens the chance of the car nudging
the one next to it.

Mind you, my equivalent "pre-flight" check is to waggle the gear lever to
prove it's in neutral before starting the engine. Our new car won't even let
you start unless you press the clutch, making it impossible to start in
gear. Still need to do the test before you let the clutch up, though :-)

On 06/03/17 12:27, NY wrote:
"Michael Chare" wrote in message
news
For many years I have used 7 pin plugs and sockets for the lights on
my trailers. The main problem I encounter is corrosion on the socket,
as I don't use it very often, maybe one or twice a year.

Now they have invented a 13 pin system, and it appears that if I buy a
VW manufacturers electric kit, it only comes with a 13 pins socket. I
could order a Witter 7 pin kit, but it is very expensive - £211.20

So should I just start using 13 pins? Anyone got any experience of
these?

The pins on a 13-pin connector are smaller diameter (in order to fit
them into the same diameter of connector) which could in theory limit
the amount of current that you can draw. In practice, I don't think it's
an issue as long as the pins and contacts are not corroded.

We had a towbar and 7-pin electrics fitted to our car for the bike rack
that we had at the time. We've since got a newer, lighter, tilting rack
which happens to have 13-pin electrics. All we needed to do was to buy a
7-to-13 converter.

https://www.autobutler.co.uk/wiki/7-and-13-pin says that the 13-pin
connector is designed to be more watertight and to have a twist-lock.

7-pin doesn't have a feed for reversing lights, whereas 13-pin does. I'm
not sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right tail
lights (when they are both always on together) rather than using one of
those for reversing lights. Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a
permanently-live feed for internal lights and electric fridge, so I'm
not sure how we powered those when we had a caravan in the early 70s. I
wonder whether our cars and caravan had to be modified to use one of the
duplicate tail-light pins as a switched live for the fridge.

13-pin (http://darsi.org/13-pin-wiring-diagram) again has the
superfluous split between left and right tail lights (are there some
countries with cars that can turn on one tail light without the other,
for it to have been included in the spec?). It has reversing lights and
both permanent-live and fridge; maybe the distinction between the two is
that fridge only comes on when the ignition is on whereas permanent is
unswitched.

Probably for parking mode...

On 06/03/17 12:32, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you
turn the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

parking mode I guess...

In article ,
"NY" writes:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
I don't think its illegal, however if you are required to have parking
lights they don't satisfy the law so using them where you need parking
lights would be illegal. You can use them when you don't legally need to
if it makes things safer.

If the US uses the same scheme, they often use the rear red tail
lights as indicators too, although they have allowed European
scheme with separate amber indicators for many years now too.

I'm always amazed that having only one rear fog light is legal, given that

There were a few years when it was only legal to have one rear
fog and/or one read reversing light, something to do with not
being confused with brake/head lamps. I think this restriction
went away when we became subject to EEC vehicle lighting regs.
(I can't now remember if this applied to one of both of the
rear fog and reversing lights, but it was commonly implemented
by having rear for lamp mirrored by reversing lamp in same
position on other side.)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:26:37 -0000
"NY" wrote:

Good point. On a steep hill I always park in gear: first if I'm
facing uphill and reverse if I'm facing downhill so that the car will
always be propelled uphill (which is harder for it to do against the
handbrake than downhill) if I try to start in gear - lessens the
chance of the car nudging the one next to it.

In San Francisco, a city of hills, you have to turn your car's wheels
so that the car rolls away from the street when you park.

--
Davey.

In article ,
NY wrote:
Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you
turn the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

German cars are (or were) all fitted with parking lights. One side and one
tail, operated by the indicator switch. Most UK German made cars are too.

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:27:36 -0000, NY wrote:

I'm not sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right
tail lights (when they are both always on together)

Two circuits to fail before both tails lights are off and/or parking
lights.

Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a permanently-live feed for internal
lights and electric fridge,

Look at the type S 7 pin trailer connector.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:26:37 -0000, NY wrote:

Good point. On a steep hill I always park in gear: first if I'm facing
uphill and reverse if I'm facing downhill so that the car will always be
propelled uphill

Hum, not sure Iike the idea of the engine being turned backwards
should it roll.

And of course if there is a kerb or raised verge you set the steering
corectly as well.

Our new car won't even let you start unless you press the clutch, making
it impossible to start in gear. Still need to do the test before you let
the clutch up, though :-)

Incorrect use of the word "impossible" otherwise the testing for
neutral before letting the clutch up after starting second sentance
wouldn't be required.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/03/2017 13:03, NY wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
I don't think its illegal, however if you are required to have parking
lights they don't satisfy the law so using them where you need parking
lights would be illegal. You can use them when you don't legally need
to if it makes things safer.

I'm always amazed that having only one rear fog light is legal, given
that in thick fog the fog lights take over from the tail lights as
defining the car's width.

That's because drivers were mistaking brake lights for fog warning
lights and driving into stationary traffic.

They decided one fog light was safer as you can't then think two bright
lights are fog lights rather than brake lights.

Of course if drivers drove correctly they wouldn't drive into the
stationary traffic anyway.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
I'm always amazed that having only one rear fog light is legal, given
that in thick fog the fog lights take over from the tail lights as
defining the car's width.

That's because drivers were mistaking brake lights for fog warning
lights and driving into stationary traffic.

Then why is it only cheap cars that have only one rear guard fog light?

They decided one fog light was safer as you can't then think two bright
lights are fog lights rather than brake lights.

As opposed to cheaper to make?

Of course if drivers drove correctly they wouldn't drive into the
stationary traffic anyway

--
*Always drink upstream from the herd *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 06/03/2017 13:03, NY wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
I don't think its illegal, however if you are required to have parking
lights they don't satisfy the law so using them where you need parking
lights would be illegal. You can use them when you don't legally need
to if it makes things safer.

I'm always amazed that having only one rear fog light is legal, given
that in thick fog the fog lights take over from the tail lights as
defining the car's width.

That's because drivers were mistaking brake lights for fog warning lights
and driving into stationary traffic.

They decided one fog light was safer as you can't then think two bright
lights are fog lights rather than brake lights.

Of course if drivers drove correctly they wouldn't drive into the
stationary traffic anyway.

Is there any legal prohibition in having two fog lights? Is it mandatory or
option for manufacturers to fit just one fog light?

A lot could be improved if the design of light clusters was improved to
space out important lights (eg tail and fog in one cluster, indicator in
another, brake in a third, with enough dark space between each that you can
see all the lights that are lit. Some of the recent Marks of VW Golf are
terrible because the brake light is a ring that surrounds the indicator, and
the brightness of the brake light obscures the indicator light until you get
close. Likewise for the font indicator which is so close to the headlights
that you don't see it as easily. We may laugh at American cars of the 1950s
which had a series of indicator lights which were illuminated in sequence,
but you can't deny that they were very visible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5HXvHlgBqU

In article ,
NY wrote:
Is there any legal prohibition in having two fog lights?

No. Only Dennis's Lada has one. And they are supplementary to brake lights
to try and help idiots confusing them with brake lights.

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

NY formulated the question :
Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn the
side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the other, to
warrant two separate pins in the connector.

Vehicles are wired with two circuits, that is for safety, should one
circuit side fail. My cars intelligent trailer lighting system, uses a
fancy unit which obtains all of its supplies from a single source,
which rather defeats the onject of having separate circuits for left
and right. It constantly monitors the trailer circuits for lighting
faults and disables the cars rear fog when a trailer is attached, plus
other items.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
NY wrote:
Is there any legal prohibition in having two fog lights?

No. Only Dennis's Lada has one. And they are supplementary to brake lights
to try and help idiots confusing them with brake lights.

I can see the problem with brake lights and fog lights being confused. In
fog, you start to see a pair of red lights out of the gloom. They may either
be fog lights on a car that is moving at about the same speed as you in the
same direction (in which case you think "car ahead of me, thanks for the
warning, may need to slow to his speed") or else they may be brake lights
(with no fog lights, and tail lights not yet visible) in which case you may
need to stop, perhaps quickly. Obviously if you are in any way unsure, you
treat them as brake lights, but that may lead to needless panic-braking. Of
course if they are brake lights then almost certainly there will be a third,
high-level brake light in between, but try sorting out two versus three in a
split-second when you're using instinct and reflex, before your brain has
processed the situation. That reflex-versus-rational thing applies in the
same way to one fog light versus two (or three) brake lights.

Mind you, it's rare to get fog that is so thick that you only see a car's
lights when you are already very close to it, so you usually get several
seconds to slow down gradually and assess what sort of lights they are and
therefore what action you need to take.

You can't always rely on two fog lights versus four lights (fog plus brake)
because many considerate people turn off their rear fog lights once they can
see the headlights of the car behind, to avoid dazzling him - and to make
their brake lights show up better when it actually matters (if there's
no-one behind me, it doesn't matter whether they can tell that I'm braking).

Embarrassing story: when I first got a new car (it was probably my Golf Mark
2) I was driving in fog and I had the fog lights on, but turned off the
switch whenever I saw a car close behind me, to avoid dazzling him. It was
only later that I realised I'd been operating the heated-rear-window switch
which was next to the fog light switch: VWs tend to have a separate light
switch and a separate fog light switch, rather than having both of these as
the tip and ring on the indicator stalk.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:11:38 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

That's because drivers were mistaking brake lights for fog warning
lights and driving into stationary traffic.

Seems remarkably daft to drive into traffic that you think is
braking.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
NY formulated the question :
Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the other,
to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

Vehicles are wired with two circuits, that is for safety, should one
circuit side fail. My cars intelligent trailer lighting system, uses a
fancy unit which obtains all of its supplies from a single source, which
rather defeats the onject of having separate circuits for left and right.
It constantly monitors the trailer circuits for lighting faults and
disables the cars rear fog when a trailer is attached, plus other items.

Why does that redundancy only apparently apply to the tail lights and not
the brake lights - or at least both standards only have one pin for brake
and one for fog, whereas they have two for tail. I'd have thought that
redundant circuits in a car for brake lights might be useful as well,
suggesting two pins (one per circuit) for brake lights.

I wonder if it does go back to earlier cars being able to switch on the
tail/side lights on just one side when parking, to halve the battery load.
Sound plausible. When did that go out of fashion? Odd that I've never
noticed any cars since I started driving in the early 80s that were parked
with just the offside lights lit. Maybe I have, and assumed that it was due
to a blown bulb :-)

Interesting wiring/logic to achieve the indicator switch turning off the
opposite tail lights. I presume the indicator switch had a second set of
contacts which broke the relevant lighting circuit.

I've always wondered how the indicator mechanism managed to turn off the
brake lights on one side of a car in the days when the same bulb was used
both for brake and indicator, before separate bulbs (one showing orange)
became mandatory. You need the brake light to come on permanently if the car
is not indicating, but to be modulated on one side by the flashing circuit
if the car is indicating. Dead easy with modern logic, but not so easy with
relays.

Do any US states still permit flashing brake/side lights as indicators, or
have they all gone over to flashing orange lights now to make a clearer
distinction? As recently as the late 90s, when my sister was living in
Boston, all American-made cars (even brand new ones such as my sister's
Dodge) seemed to have flashing red lights, whereas all imported cars (such
as VW Golfs and Hondas) seemed to have flashing orange. So both were
permitted and neither one nor the other was mandatory.

On 06/03/2017 16:08, NY wrote:

Mind you, it's rare to get fog that is so thick that you only see a
car's lights when you are already very close to it, so you usually get
several seconds to slow down gradually and assess what sort of lights
they are and therefore what action you need to take.


When driving in fog you need to drive slowly enough to stop before
hitting another vehicle even if you can't see any lights, perhaps
because of an earlier accident.

Many people drive much to fast in fog. On the motorways they just assume
that the road ahead is clear. The Sheppey bridge was recently blocked
by a multiple vehicle accident in fog/low cloud.

--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 06/03/17 16:27, NY wrote:

I wonder if it does go back to earlier cars being able to switch on the
tail/side lights on just one side when parking, to halve the battery
load. Sound plausible. When did that go out of fashion? Odd that I've
never noticed any cars since I started driving in the early 80s that
were parked with just the offside lights lit. Maybe I have, and assumed
that it was due to a blown bulb :-)

My Touran could do it - you had to flick the indicator stalk one way or
another *after* turning the ignition off. The MINI can do it but I
forgot how. My Tucson: not sure - just off to read the manual!

On 06-Mar-17 12:37 PM, charles wrote:
In article , NY
wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you turn
the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

on a previous car - possibly my 1971 Cortina Mk3 = the side lights weere
separately wired so that they could be used as one side parking lights,
controlled by the indicator switch. Two circuits might be a hangover from
this convention - which is, I think - now illegal


It is still available on some modern cars. However, using it would be
contrary to the UK Lighting Regulations.

--
--

Colin Bignell

NY formulated on Monday :
7-pin doesn't have a feed for reversing lights, whereas 13-pin does. I'm not
sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right tail lights
(when they are both always on together) rather than using one of those for
reversing lights. Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a permanently-live feed for
internal lights and electric fridge, so I'm not sure how we powered those
when we had a caravan in the early 70s. I wonder whether our cars and caravan
had to be modified to use one of the duplicate tail-light pins as a switched
live for the fridge.

7pin does have reversing light feed, fridge and internal caravan
lights.

The original 12N 7 pin just had the basic essential road lighting
circuits. The 12S added as a later upgrade to the 12N, had reversing
light feed, plus fridge and battery charge, via a relay or voltage
controlled relay, extra earth terminals and a reverse sensor/spare.

The 15pin replaces both 12N and 12S with a single socket and plug,
which is supposedly more robust.

NY was thinking very hard :
I can see the problem with brake lights and fog lights being confused. In
fog, you start to see a pair of red lights out of the gloom. They may either
be fog lights on a car that is moving at about the same speed as you in the
same direction (in which case you think "car ahead of me, thanks for the
warning, may need to slow to his speed") or else they may be brake lights
(with no fog lights, and tail lights not yet visible) in which case you may
need to stop, perhaps quickly. Obviously if you are in any way unsure, you
treat them as brake lights, but that may lead to needless panic-braking. Of
course if they are brake lights then almost certainly there will be a third,
high-level brake light in between, but try sorting out two versus three in a
split-second when you're using instinct and reflex, before your brain has
processed the situation. That reflex-versus-rational thing applies in the
same way to one fog light versus two (or three) brake lights.

If in any doubt, you react to the worst possible scenario.

NY formulated on Monday :
But then as I always turn off the indicator when I park (part of the
"post-flight drill" that includes waggle gear lever to make sure it's in
neutral, put handbrake on, turn engine off) I'd probably never have noticed
it even if the car did have that feature.

....and part of my 'post flight' is to make sure I have left it in
gear. Though my handbrake is as good as it gets, there is always the
possibility of a mechanical failure of the handbrake, in which case in
gear provides a back up. Part of my 'pre-flight' is to make sure it is
out of gear and press the clutch down and the brake pedal, as double
security against it moving as I start up.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
NY formulated on Monday :
7-pin doesn't have a feed for reversing lights, whereas 13-pin does. I'm
not sure why 7-pin chose to have separate pins for left and right tail
lights (when they are both always on together) rather than using one of
those for reversing lights. Surprisingly 7-pin doesn't have a
permanently-live feed for internal lights and electric fridge, so I'm not
sure how we powered those when we had a caravan in the early 70s. I
wonder whether our cars and caravan had to be modified to use one of the
duplicate tail-light pins as a switched live for the fridge.

7pin does have reversing light feed, fridge and internal caravan lights.

The original 12N 7 pin just had the basic essential road lighting
circuits. The 12S added as a later upgrade to the 12N, had reversing light
feed, plus fridge and battery charge, via a relay or voltage controlled
relay, extra earth terminals and a reverse sensor/spare.

I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the second
was for the things like permanently and switched live and reversing lights.
What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton Javelin - how do I
still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm *sure* we only had one 7-pin
socket and not a second one. OK, I was about 10 at the time, but I was at an
age when anything "different" stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

The 15pin replaces both 12N and 12S with a single socket and plug, which
is supposedly more robust.

Do you mean 15- or 13-pin? Is there another third type of connector?

It happens that NY formulated :
I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the second
was for the things like permanently and switched live and reversing lights.
What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton Javelin - how do I
still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm *sure* we only had one 7-pin
socket and not a second one. OK, I was about 10 at the time, but I was at an
age when anything "different" stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

I'm not sure when the 12S use began, but I don't think it was around in
1970. Caravans back then were much more basic - no fridge, no batteries
gas lighting. Maybe mid 1990's they became more common as they were
fitted with more luxuries. 12N - N stands for Normal, 12S the S is
Supplementary.


The 15pin replaces both 12N and 12S with a single socket and plug, which is
supposedly more robust.

Do you mean 15- or 13-pin? Is there another third type of connector?

Sorry, I mistyped it is of course a 13 pin.

On 06/03/2017 12:32, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
I believe since 2012, it is a legal requirement for new trailers to
have the reversing light which the 7 pin type N cannot provide so
there's another reason to favour the 13 pin.

Intriguingly our older bike rack has reversing lights in the light
cluster but no way to power them since it has a 7-pin plug fitted.


Why do both standards have separate pins for left and right tail lights.
Aren't both tail lights always powered simultaneously as soon as you
turn the side lights switch on? How do you turn on one side without the
other, to warrant two separate pins in the connector.

They're separately fused on my Merc and my Transit.

Bill

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
It happens that NY formulated :
I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton
Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm *sure*
we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I was about 10 at
the time, but I was at an age when anything "different" stuck in my mind.
Maybe I've mis-remembered.

I'm not sure when the 12S use began, but I don't think it was around in
1970. Caravans back then were much more basic - no fridge, no batteries
gas lighting. Maybe mid 1990's they became more common as they were fitted
with more luxuries. 12N - N stands for Normal, 12S the S is Supplementary.

Ours had a gas/electric fridge: gas when stationary, so as not to drain the
car battery, and electric when moving, because the draught caused by the
caravan moving at 40 mph (*) would blow out the gas flame.

It had both gas lights (with mantles), and 6" 12V fluorescent lights which
made an infernal whistling that my sister and I could hear but my parents
(being no longer in the first flush of youth) couldn't.

If the 12S connector hadn't yet been introduced, I wonder how switched 12V
was conveyed to the fridge and I wonder if the 12N had an unofficial
modification to use one of the two tail light pins for switched 12V, with
both rear lights being fed from the other pin. Unless we always drove with
the side lights on :-) I'm *sure* I only remember one 7-pin plug. Maybe
there was some wholly non-standard connector for that one extra wire.

The one thing I don't remember was having to go through any elaborate
levelling procedure so the fridge would work properly, with wedges under the
wheels, whereas my wife who had a motor-caravan before I met her said that
it was essential to jiggle the vehicle on wedges under each of its four
wheels until it was level in two dimensions. We just shoved a bit of wood on
the ground at each corner and lowered each jack until it pressed the wood
against the ground but without actually lifting the caravan off the ground.
As long as the caravan didn't rock, who cared if the floor sloped slightly.
Were we lucky or did earlier gas fridges not need to be kept dead level when
they were turned on? I do wonder whether a couple of screw threads operated
by the jack handle, to tilt the fridge until it was level, might have been
easier than having to raise some of the wheels by driving up ramps until the
whole vehicle was level.

My parents sold the caravan in 1976 when they bought a holiday cottage in
the Yorkshire Dales which they renovated each weekend and which they still
have.



(*) I remember the excitement when the law was changed to allow caravans to
go at up to 50 mph, providing the car's and caravan's weights were printed
somewhere prominent on the caravan (grandpa hand-lettered it on the
removable flap for the fridge burner), the caravan was no more than a
certain proportion of the car's weight, and a "50" sticker (white lettering
on a black disc) was displayed in the rear window of the caravan. These days
I believe the limit has been raised to either 60 or 70 - with similar
provisos about ratio of caravan to car weight.

NY wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
It happens that NY formulated :
I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton
Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm *sure*
we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I was about 10 at
the time, but I was at an age when anything "different" stuck in my mind.
Maybe I've mis-remembered.

I'm not sure when the 12S use began, but I don't think it was around in
1970. Caravans back then were much more basic - no fridge, no batteries
gas lighting. Maybe mid 1990's they became more common as they were fitted
with more luxuries. 12N - N stands for Normal, 12S the S is Supplementary.

Ours had a gas/electric fridge: gas when stationary, so as not to drain the
car battery, and electric when moving, because the draught caused by the
caravan moving at 40 mph (*) would blow out the gas flame.

It had both gas lights (with mantles), and 6" 12V fluorescent lights which
made an infernal whistling that my sister and I could hear but my parents
(being no longer in the first flush of youth) couldn't.

If the 12S connector hadn't yet been introduced, I wonder how switched 12V
was conveyed to the fridge and I wonder if the 12N had an unofficial
modification to use one of the two tail light pins for switched 12V, with
both rear lights being fed from the other pin. Unless we always drove with
the side lights on :-) I'm *sure* I only remember one 7-pin plug. Maybe
there was some wholly non-standard connector for that one extra wire.

The one thing I don't remember was having to go through any elaborate
levelling procedure so the fridge would work properly, with wedges under the
wheels, whereas my wife who had a motor-caravan before I met her said that
it was essential to jiggle the vehicle on wedges under each of its four
wheels until it was level in two dimensions. We just shoved a bit of wood on
the ground at each corner and lowered each jack until it pressed the wood
against the ground but without actually lifting the caravan off the ground.
As long as the caravan didn't rock, who cared if the floor sloped slightly.
Were we lucky or did earlier gas fridges not need to be kept dead level when
they were turned on? I do wonder whether a couple of screw threads operated
by the jack handle, to tilt the fridge until it was level, might have been
easier than having to raise some of the wheels by driving up ramps until the
whole vehicle was level.

My parents sold the caravan in 1976 when they bought a holiday cottage in
the Yorkshire Dales which they renovated each weekend and which they still
have.



(*) I remember the excitement when the law was changed to allow caravans to
go at up to 50 mph, providing the car's and caravan's weights were printed
somewhere prominent on the caravan (grandpa hand-lettered it on the
removable flap for the fridge burner), the caravan was no more than a
certain proportion of the car's weight, and a "50" sticker (white lettering
on a black disc) was displayed in the rear window of the caravan. These days
I believe the limit has been raised to either 60 or 70 - with similar
provisos about ratio of caravan to car weight.



Back in the seventies I doubt any caravan had reversing or fog lights so in
theory in a 7 pin plug you could have earth, L indicator, R indicator,
brake lights, sidelights and have two pins left over for ignition switched
live and continuous live if you wanted.

Regarding fridges, it's always been my experience that being off level
*might* stop a non-compressor fridge working but there has always been (and
still is) a degree of latitude. Small degrees of tilt, usually no problem,
bigger degrees sometimes do stop the fridge working. Not noticed any
change.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 06/03/2017 21:46, NY wrote:

Ours had a gas/electric fridge: gas when stationary, so as not to drain
the car battery, and electric when moving, because the draught caused by
the caravan moving at 40 mph (*) would blow out the gas flame.


That wasn't the reason. Until quite recently, it was illegal to operate
gas appliances on the move. Now there are special 'drive safe'
regulators and hoses which you can use with some appliances on the move.
Some motorhomes have them so you can use the gas heaters while on the
move. There is a sensor in the regulator which detects an impact and
special sensors in the hoses to detect ruptures.




The one thing I don't remember was having to go through any elaborate
levelling procedure so the fridge would work properly, with wedges under
the wheels, whereas my wife who had a motor-caravan before I met her
said that it was essential to jiggle the vehicle on wedges under each of
its four wheels until it was level in two dimensions. We just shoved a
bit of wood on the ground at each corner and lowered each jack until it
pressed the wood against the ground but without actually lifting the
caravan off the ground. As long as the caravan didn't rock, who cared if
the floor sloped slightly. Were we lucky or did earlier gas fridges not
need to be kept dead level when they were turned on? I do wonder whether
a couple of screw threads operated by the jack handle, to tilt the
fridge until it was level, might have been easier than having to raise
some of the wheels by driving up ramps until the whole vehicle was level.



We rarely use our motorhome fridge on gas, modern ones tend to operate
on mains/gas/12V, but it isn't quite that critical. We get the van level
as much for things like cooking- frying eggs on a slope is no fun- as
anything. May be the older ones were more sensitive.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 06/03/17 19:16, NY wrote:

I've seen some cars with two 7-pin connectors and I presumed that the
second was for the things like permanently and switched live and
reversing lights. What is odd is that my parents had our caravan (Lynton
Javelin - how do I still remember that name) in the early 70s, I'm
*sure* we only had one 7-pin socket and not a second one. OK, I was
about 10 at the time, but I was at an age when anything "different"
stuck in my mind. Maybe I've mis-remembered.

As a kid who grew up caravanning I can add some authority to this:

12N was the "basic" connector. Most people only had that. It had one
permanent live for supply.

12S was known as the Supplementary connector and had all the extra
features, including an ignition switched live for fridge (gas fridges
often had an electric element for minimal operation whilst being towed).

I have seen people using these, but they were NOT universal - none of
our, admittedly second hand caravans had them, and our 1976 car was only
wired with 12N.

The 15pin replaces both 12N and 12S with a single socket and plug,
which is supposedly more robust.

Do you mean 15- or 13-pin? Is there another third type of connector?

OP means 13 pin.

It's a sensible system - compact, all the features (and a spare pin) and
the 13-12N adaptor is not very big, so you can still basically hang a
12N plug out of one.