On 18/12/2016 14:49, Robin wrote:
On 18/12/2016 10:05, RJH wrote:


But IMHO it's a very impressive model for island communities like Ta'u.

Indeed - but that's (a) a tropical island with steady sunshine through
the year, (b) relatively modest demands (less than 1 MW[1]) and (c)
relatively high prices from previous sources. And even then the solar
PV was only practicable because of funding by the World Bank, EU, and
Pacific Rims states.


Ah - didn't know about the grant funding. From what little I've read, it
looked like a government loan, or perhaps a PFI-type model. Also, high
bills - this isn't of any financial advantage to households, I gather.
Do you have a source for the details? I'm just relying on press reporting.


[1] I knew someone who worked there who like to give people
idiosyncratic angles on what it was like, such as less than 200 street
lights in the whole country


:-)

Only 600 people. Difficult to see how that scales to, say, Croydon.
Costs, relative costs, and technology will need to move along a fair way.

For now, I wonder how far this is from becoming viable:

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/ikea/solar-panels/

--
Cheers, Rob

In article , RJH scribeth
thus
On 18/12/2016 14:49, Robin wrote:
On 18/12/2016 10:05, RJH wrote:


But IMHO it's a very impressive model for island communities like Ta'u.

Indeed - but that's (a) a tropical island with steady sunshine through
the year, (b) relatively modest demands (less than 1 MW[1]) and (c)
relatively high prices from previous sources. And even then the solar
PV was only practicable because of funding by the World Bank, EU, and
Pacific Rims states.


Ah - didn't know about the grant funding. From what little I've read, it
looked like a government loan, or perhaps a PFI-type model. Also, high
bills - this isn't of any financial advantage to households, I gather.
Do you have a source for the details? I'm just relying on press reporting.


[1] I knew someone who worked there who like to give people
idiosyncratic angles on what it was like, such as less than 200 street
lights in the whole country


:-)

Only 600 people. Difficult to see how that scales to, say, Croydon.
Costs, relative costs, and technology will need to move along a fair way.

For now, I wonder how far this is from becoming viable:



http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/ikea/solar-panels/


Scary can you imagine reading the destruction's that would come with it;!..

Bet 'arry I'd love one!
--
Tony Sayer

On 18/12/2016 16:03, RJH wrote:

Ah - didn't know about the grant funding. From what little I've read, it
looked like a government loan, or perhaps a PFI-type model. Also, high
bills - this isn't of any financial advantage to households, I gather.
Do you have a source for the details? I'm just relying on press reporting.

I don't have a comprehensive account (sic) but a quick search shows:

EUR 1.9m grant from the EU for outer islands PV
http://www.ppa.org.fj/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1130-EU.ppt

USD 7m grant from the World Bank for solar PV, wind, better metering et
al
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2015/01/26/tuvalu-efficient-renewable-energy

I'm fairly sure there was extra money from the Pacific Rim.

I don't begrudge them. But with a population of c.11,000 those grants
alone work out at some £650 per person. The equivalent of spending £40
billion or so in the UK. And that's on top of whatever it'd cost to
move the UK to the tropics and reduce our per capita consumption to
Tuvalu levels.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sunday, 18 December 2016 17:15:48 UTC, tony sayer wrote:
In article , RJH scribeth
thus
On 18/12/2016 14:49, Robin wrote:
On 18/12/2016 10:05, RJH wrote:


But IMHO it's a very impressive model for island communities like Ta'u.

Indeed - but that's (a) a tropical island with steady sunshine through
the year, (b) relatively modest demands (less than 1 MW[1]) and (c)
relatively high prices from previous sources. And even then the solar
PV was only practicable because of funding by the World Bank, EU, and
Pacific Rims states.


Ah - didn't know about the grant funding. From what little I've read, it
looked like a government loan, or perhaps a PFI-type model. Also, high
bills - this isn't of any financial advantage to households, I gather.
Do you have a source for the details? I'm just relying on press reporting.


[1] I knew someone who worked there who like to give people
idiosyncratic angles on what it was like, such as less than 200 street
lights in the whole country


:-)

Only 600 people. Difficult to see how that scales to, say, Croydon.
Costs, relative costs, and technology will need to move along a fair way.

For now, I wonder how far this is from becoming viable:



http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/ikea/solar-panels/


Scary can you imagine reading the destruction's that would come with it;!..

Bet 'arry I'd love one!

I already have 8kw of solar PV panels, thanks for your concern :-)

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news On 16/12/16 15:26, tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html



Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when it's
dark factored in?

I realise that this doesn't allow the claim to be scaled up in the way
harry did

but I think the point of the article was talking about areas where
there
was no other means of supply

leccy for 12 hours a day has got to be better than leccy for zero
hours
of the day

Not if te main use for it is lighting after dark.

why would its main use to be to provide something that it can't provide
that you *didn't* have before

Because that happens to be what you need most, lighting after dark.

but they are currently sourcing that some other way

Nowhere near as conveniently or as safely either.

so they can go on doing so

But it makes a lot more sense to do it the better
way when you are adding solar to what you have.

and I would content that it is what you need most

Surely things like refrigeration to keep food longer is much more
important "new" thing to have

But you dont have to do refrigeration by solar either.

In fact most dont do it that way in their RVs so there
is no reason why it makes sense with non RVs either.

It's like saying that there's no point someone who doesn't own a car
buying one because it can't fly you to France

Nothing like in fact.

Nope, it's an exact analogy

Like hell it is.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news On 16/12/16 15:26, tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html



Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when
it's dark factored in?

I realise that this doesn't allow the claim to be scaled up in the
way harry did

but I think the point of the article was talking about areas where
there was no other means of supply

leccy for 12 hours a day has got to be better than leccy for zero
hours of the day

Not if te main use for it is lighting after dark.

why would its main use to be to provide something that it can't
provide that you *didn't* have before

Because that happens to be what you need most, lighting after dark.

but they are currently sourcing that some other way

so they can go on doing so

and I would content that it is what you need most

Surely things like refrigeration to keep food longer is much more
important "new" thing to have

and heating. Yes, I know you should use gas or oil, but not everybody
can.

Even if you use those two other fuels you need electricity to keep the
appliances working.

No you don’t in the third world, their appliances use gas and oil fine
without any electricity at all. Can't imagine why for the life of me.

En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Store electricity ??. Really ?.

ps.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...attery-plants-
scheduled-to-keep-uk-lights-on

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On 18/12/2016 17:51, Robin wrote:
On 18/12/2016 16:03, RJH wrote:

Ah - didn't know about the grant funding. From what little I've read, it
looked like a government loan, or perhaps a PFI-type model. Also, high
bills - this isn't of any financial advantage to households, I gather.
Do you have a source for the details? I'm just relying on press
reporting.

I don't have a comprehensive account (sic) but a quick search shows:

EUR 1.9m grant from the EU for outer islands PV
http://www.ppa.org.fj/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/1130-EU.ppt

USD 7m grant from the World Bank for solar PV, wind, better metering et
al
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2015/01/26/tuvalu-efficient-renewable-energy


I'm fairly sure there was extra money from the Pacific Rim.


Yes, thanks, I was aware grants were available for solar - just not sure
how Ta'u was affected.

I think as a US territory is was funded solely by American Samoan and US
authorities. But I can't find anything concrete. Curious mainly because
of the high bills - doesn't look especially grant supported.

I don't begrudge them. But with a population of c.11,000 those grants
alone work out at some £650 per person. The equivalent of spending £40
billion or so in the UK. And that's on top of whatever it'd cost to
move the UK to the tropics and reduce our per capita consumption to
Tuvalu levels.


Yes - that's Tuvalu, not Ta'u. I'd be very wary of interpreting World
Bank and any associated 'grants'. They often involve spending money in
particular ways, involving specified contractors. And critically,
spending a whole lot more money from expensive, specified and
conditional loans. Hence the high cost to end users in many examples.

The WB (etc) have notable form here, and the privatisation of utility
programmes in many parts of Africa. Fortunes to be made, alas.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 19/12/2016 07:38, RJH wrote:


Yes - that's Tuvalu, not Ta'u.

Ahem, yes. Sorry. I'll give me brain a good kicking as soon as I find it.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

En el artículo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

Overall, that was rather depressing reading. We seem to be getting
closer and closer to zero reserves

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-of-christmas-
electricity-blackouts-next-year-warn-mps

'tis the Grauniad, so read with usual pinch of salt, and blood pressure
medication to hand for the lunatic fringe in here.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news On 16/12/16 15:26, tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html



Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when it's
dark factored in?

I realise that this doesn't allow the claim to be scaled up in the
way
harry did

but I think the point of the article was talking about areas where
there
was no other means of supply

leccy for 12 hours a day has got to be better than leccy for zero
hours
of the day

Not if te main use for it is lighting after dark.

why would its main use to be to provide something that it can't provide
that you *didn't* have before

Because that happens to be what you need most, lighting after dark.

but they are currently sourcing that some other way

Nowhere near as conveniently or as safely either.

but if it's that or nothing.....

so they can go on doing so

But it makes a lot more sense to do it the better
way when you are adding solar to what you have.

what you have is nothing

and I would content that it is what you need most

Surely things like refrigeration to keep food longer is much more
important "new" thing to have

But you dont have to do refrigeration by solar either.

but you do need some sort of power and currently you have nothing

In fact most dont do it that way in their RVs so there
is no reason why it makes sense with non RVs either.

It's like saying that there's no point someone who doesn't own a car
buying one because it can't fly you to France

Nothing like in fact.

Nope, it's an exact analogy

Like hell it is.

yep, it is.

tim




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
'tis the Grauniad, so read with usual pinch of salt, and blood pressure
medication to hand for the lunatic fringe in here.

Yup. Everyone knows only the Mail and Express speak the truth.

--
*Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/12/16 11:11, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Store electricity ??. Really ?.

Yes. Battery farms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batter..._power_station

ROFLMAO!

"largest installed systems reach capacities of up to 36 MWh"

So enough to keep the UK going for... ~3.5 seconds
Another thick **** who Cant Do Sums.

On 19/12/16 10:40, Chris Hogg wrote:
Perhaps it's govt policy to prove
to the general population that renewables can't cut it when it's
needed.

That may be closer to the truth than you think.

When I managed people, one way was to let them **** up, THEN they came
and asked advice. Unsolicited advice before that was resented.

On 19/12/16 12:11, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

Overall, that was rather depressing reading. We seem to be getting
closer and closer to zero reserves

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-of-christmas-
electricity-blackouts-next-year-warn-mps

'tis the Grauniad, so read with usual pinch of salt, and blood pressure
medication to hand for the lunatic fringe in here.

Well time will tell. Theres negative margin before Xmas forecast on the
grid, and its getting very very close. One bit of seaweed in a nuke
water intake, and there could be trouble.
Today now wind or solar to speak of,CCGT flat out, nukes flat out, coal
nearly flat out, and 2GW going to the EU because they are ****ed already.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news On 16/12/16 15:26, tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html



Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when
it's
dark factored in?

I realise that this doesn't allow the claim to be scaled up in the
way
harry did

but I think the point of the article was talking about areas where
there
was no other means of supply

leccy for 12 hours a day has got to be better than leccy for zero
hours
of the day

Not if te main use for it is lighting after dark.

why would its main use to be to provide something that it can't
provide that you *didn't* have before

Because that happens to be what you need most, lighting after dark.

but they are currently sourcing that some other way

Nowhere near as conveniently or as safely either.

but if it's that or nothing.....

It never is.

so they can go on doing so

But it makes a lot more sense to do it the better
way when you are adding solar to what you have.

what you have is nothing

Its never nothing, particularly with food preparation.

and I would content that it is what you need most

Surely things like refrigeration to keep food longer is much more
important "new" thing to have

But you dont have to do refrigeration by solar either.

but you do need some sort of power

Nope, refrigeration is perfectly possible with gas, liquid fuels etc.

and currently you have nothing

You never have nothing.

In fact most dont do it that way in their RVs so there
is no reason why it makes sense with non RVs either.

It's like saying that there's no point someone who doesn't own a car
buying one because it can't fly you to France

Nothing like in fact.

Nope, it's an exact analogy

Like hell it is.

yep, it is.

Nope, it aint.

In article , Mike Tomlinson
scribeth thus
En el artículo , Chris Hogg
escribió:

Overall, that was rather depressing reading. We seem to be getting
closer and closer to zero reserves

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-of-christmas-
electricity-blackouts-next-year-warn-mps

'tis the Grauniad, so read with usual pinch of salt, and blood pressure
medication to hand for the lunatic fringe in here.


Well is it? Are they? Lets see, a basic rudimentary calc from Gridwatch
assuming the TNP's dials are reasonably accurate we have 25 GW of Gas,
8 Nuke 10 of coal 2G biomass around 4 from the interconnects which leave
Hydro and pumped, very short term storage so thats 49 maybe 50 GW
Capacity.


So the other variables wind and solar?. Sod all wind barely a gig and a
half, sod all Solar.

Demand goes much above 50 GW getting rather close to the available power
eh?.

Bad cold winter, demand high suppose a station or two down for
refuelling or whatever?.

Come back coal then as we have nothing else apart from demand reduction
to fill the gap .. Haven't we?. More Green Leccy motors on the road?
--
Tony Sayer

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

Yup. Everyone knows only the Mail and Express speak the truth.



I don't read either, and wouldn't wipe my arse with them. Might catch
something.

I like the Guardian; it doesn't treat its readers as if they're stupid.
But when reading news from /any/ source, a healthy dose of scepticism is
in order.

There was a thread here recently about news sources. I get the
impression most intelligent contributors in this group get their news
from a variety of sources and form their own opinion.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

Yup. Everyone knows only the Mail and Express speak the truth.



I don't read either, and wouldn't wipe my arse with them. Might catch
something.

I like the Guardian; it doesn't treat its readers as if they're stupid.
But when reading news from /any/ source, a healthy dose of scepticism is
in order.

Of course. Only those with no brain believe everything they read in a
paper. But more often choose what they want to believe.

There was a thread here recently about news sources. I get the
impression most intelligent contributors in this group get their news
from a variety of sources and form their own opinion.

I'd hope so. But when someone quotes a newspaper article to back up their
opinion, they presumably trust that source.

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Mike Tomlinson
writes
En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Store electricity ??. Really ?.

ps.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...attery-plants-
scheduled-to-keep-uk-lights-on

All it shows that it is non-viable to build large gas plants purely as
back-up t intermittent renewables.
--
bert

On 18/12/2016 00:42, wrote:
On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 11:13:21 PM UTC+8, Andrew wrote:

How much power does an MRI scanner with its supercooled magnets need
24/7/365 ?.

Better still how much does the super duper hadron collider with its
superchill magnets use?
It is the most inefficient machine on Earth, all that power to move
teeny weeny particles...

I heard on a BBC program that there are two french nuclear power
stations dedicated to providing power to generate the refridgeration
needed cool all those super-cooled magnets and remove excess heat.

One supplies all the power, the other is hot standby.

On 18/12/2016 09:11, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Store electricity ??. Really ?.

Yes. Battery farms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batter..._power_station



Batteries do not store electricity. Electricity is the flow
of electrons. Without a circuit, no 'electricity'. The
battery stores the checmical potential to generate the
electricity on demand.

Other storage devices store energy in the form of
pressurised water (dams), heat (liquid salt) etc.

Why didn't you write anything harry?


On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 16:51:56 -0000, harry wrote:

On Saturday, 17 December 2016 09:57:59 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think the problem with solar is pretty obvious to anyone.
It only works when its sunny and daytime. A slight inconvenience that.


Anyone know how that project to drill into a volcano is doing to use geo
thermalenergy?
However I'm not living near a volcano just coss the leccy is cheaper and I
don't think there are many volcanoes in Surrey.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 16/12/16 10:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html

ROFLMFAO.

So why do they need subsidies again harry?






--
An elderly British gentleman of 83 arrived in Paris by plane. At the French
customs desk he took a few minutes to locate his passport in his carry-on
bag. 'You have been to France before, Monsieur?' the customs officer asked
sarcastically.
The elderly gentleman admitted he had been to France previously.
'Then you should know enough to 'ave your passport ready,' the customs
officer said. The elderly gentleman replied, 'The last time I was here, I
didn't have to show it.'
'Impossible! The British always have to show their passports on arrival in
France !'
The Man gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then he quietly explained;
'Well, when I came ashore on the Beach on D-Day in 1944, I couldn't find any
****ing Frenchmen to show it to...!!

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:32:09 -0000, alan_m wrote:

On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html


Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when it's
dark factored in?

It's windy when it's dark.


--
Foreploy (v): Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of getting laid.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 11:21:35 -0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 09:50:51 +0000, RJH wrote:

On 16/12/2016 10:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/12/16 11:32, alan_m wrote:
On 16/12/2016 08:50, harry wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7477096.html




Are the costs for storage or an for alternative source for when it's
dark factored in?


Course not.


Yes, they are. They use Powerpacks.

Never heard of Powerpacks; looked them up; a Tesla system.
https://www.tesla.com/powerpack Scroll down nearly to the bottom for
overall system specs: 210kWh, 50kW, per Powerpack. So just over four
hours before it's flat at that 50kW rate. Assuming average annual
domestic electricity consumption of 3,300kWh, i.e. a rate of 0.377kW,
gives a battery capacity of 557 hours if connected to a single
household, or 23 houses for 24 hours.

Assuming a UK power consumption of 55GW early on a cold January
evening, and no wind or nasty CO2-producing CCGT power stations, it
would take 1.1 million Powerpacks to tide us over for a few hours. Is
that worth having? A matter of opinion, I guess, but I don't see
anything about how much a Powerpack costs, nor do I see anything about
their lifetimes (but I've not looked very hard for either).

I also see there's a company called Camborne* that's installing one of
these systems in Somerset http://tinyurl.com/zrf3fhs . It will power
'over 500 homes' they say. But for how long? Hours? Weeks? The usual
misleading stuff from the alternative energy brigade anxious to cash
in on the public concern about AGW and climate change. I'm surprised
they don't claim to be able to power all the homes in the UK, which
would be true, after all, even if only for a few seconds!

*confused me at first because Camborne is a town not far from me in
West Cornwall.

People will just have to stop being wimps and wasting energy on heating. Energy should be used for productive things like TV sets.

--
What do you call kinky sex with chocolate?
S&M&M

En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Batteries do not store electricity.

That's the most extreme form of pedantry I've seen for a while. You
should be in Pedant's Corner in Private Eye.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")