Just musing over whether bathrooms in flats are plumbed differently to
regular houses......

I'm fitting a bathroom suite for someone on a ground floor flat
presently. I really can't believe the original plumber got paid to do
the job he did, but maybe it's just a feature of flat installations
that I haven't previously seen.

Problem 1 is that the hot flow is extremely slow. Reason being that
the hot tank has a head of water about 1 foot above the bath, so it
almost dribbles out of the hot tap.

Problem 2 is that the waste pipe to the stack is about 6 inches off
the ground, and the water level is equal to the top of the bath
plughole - so when the bath is emptied it stops emptying at the top of
the plughole. Emptying the bath is of course extremely slow.

With problem 2 the situation is exacerbated by the waste pipe being
run horizontally for several feet to the stack.

I thought at the outset that I might be able to lower the waste pipe
and introduce an incline so as to improve the waste flow. No such deal
was available once I'd exposed the pipework behind the wall, I'd have
had to do some serious structural work to accomplish that little feat.

Why oh why did the idiot who did the plumbing in the flat originally
not use a couple of braincells?

Fscking plumbers.....

PoP

"PoP" wrote in message
...
Just musing over whether bathrooms in flats are plumbed differently to
regular houses......

I'm fitting a bathroom suite for someone on a ground floor flat
presently. I really can't believe the original plumber got paid to do
the job he did, but maybe it's just a feature of flat installations
that I haven't previously seen.

Problem 1 is that the hot flow is extremely slow. Reason being that
the hot tank has a head of water about 1 foot above the bath, so it
almost dribbles out of the hot tap.

Problem 2 is that the waste pipe to the stack is about 6 inches off
the ground, and the water level is equal to the top of the bath
plughole - so when the bath is emptied it stops emptying at the top of
the plughole. Emptying the bath is of course extremely slow.

With problem 2 the situation is exacerbated by the waste pipe being
run horizontally for several feet to the stack.

I thought at the outset that I might be able to lower the waste pipe
and introduce an incline so as to improve the waste flow. No such deal
was available once I'd exposed the pipework behind the wall, I'd have
had to do some serious structural work to accomplish that little feat.

Why oh why did the idiot who did the plumbing in the flat originally
not use a couple of braincells?

Fscking plumbers.....

PoP


The hot water flow could be made a bit better with some 28mm pipe for as
much of the run as is possible before connecting to the tap.

Also, is there room for a clamp on boss under the branch on the main waste
stack ?

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:38:26 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

The hot water flow could be made a bit better with some 28mm pipe for as
much of the run as is possible before connecting to the tap.

That's useful information - though not for this particular job. Reason
being the structural arrangement. It's currently fed from 22mm so I
would guess the 28mm would only be marginally better.

Also, is there room for a clamp on boss under the branch on the main waste
stack ?

As above. I'd have to tear down walls (or at least give them some
serious treatment with my SDS drill) to get to the stack. I don't
precisely know where the stack is in this flat, though I have a
suspicion it is probably at the back of the airing cupboard - with 2
large water tanks in front of it (and 5 control valves with pipe
running in different directions) so I'm not about to expose it.

The other issue is that being a flat there are other properties in the
building, and I'm cautious about inflicting damage in this
arrangement. Bringing down a load bearing wall in a single dwelling
might be an acceptable if unlikely risk, but relieving several people
of their home is not something that's on my to-do list

The clamp-on boss suggestion is good idea though!

Just can't understand how any plumber could get away with such an
installation! It would have been so easy to fix these problems at
build time. I'll bet the original site manager wasn't up to speed on
this development.

PoP

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:38:26 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"PoP" wrote in message
...
Just musing over whether bathrooms in flats are plumbed differently to
regular houses......

I'm fitting a bathroom suite for someone on a ground floor flat
presently. I really can't believe the original plumber got paid to do
the job he did, but maybe it's just a feature of flat installations
that I haven't previously seen.

Problem 1 is that the hot flow is extremely slow. Reason being that
the hot tank has a head of water about 1 foot above the bath, so it
almost dribbles out of the hot tap.

Problem 2 is that the waste pipe to the stack is about 6 inches off
the ground, and the water level is equal to the top of the bath
plughole - so when the bath is emptied it stops emptying at the top of
the plughole. Emptying the bath is of course extremely slow.

With problem 2 the situation is exacerbated by the waste pipe being
run horizontally for several feet to the stack.

I thought at the outset that I might be able to lower the waste pipe
and introduce an incline so as to improve the waste flow. No such deal
was available once I'd exposed the pipework behind the wall, I'd have
had to do some serious structural work to accomplish that little feat.

Why oh why did the idiot who did the plumbing in the flat originally
not use a couple of braincells?

Fscking plumbers.....

PoP



The reason the bath waste is wrong is for exactly the reason you say - it
would have taken some serious work to put right.
There must have been a reasonable run for the bath waste when it was new
what has changed (the bath has been turned around 180 so the plug is not
near the waste? - Odds on I'd say).

Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a
silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot
tap on a good day.

Combi boilers are the solution, or if no gas, electric unvented.


Plumbing in flats is no different from elsewhere except that 30 years ago
the industry tried to include the same equipement as for house and then
flatten it. Previously the method was to install large tanks at roof level
which worked well but requires lots of 'management' when any work need
doing.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:11:38 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

There must have been a reasonable run for the bath waste when it was new
what has changed (the bath has been turned around 180 so the plug is not
near the waste? - Odds on I'd say).

No, it was the original bath I took out earlier in the week. The lady
who owns the flat has had the drainage and fill problems all the time
she's been there.

Plus it would be physically impossible to run the waste under the full
length of the bath, unless the bath was mounted at least 9 inches off
the floor - where the waste enters the wall it comes out and hits the
bottom of the bath, so you have to turn the pipe down to get to the
trap under the bath! The plumber must have been on chapter 1 of his
good plumbing guide when he did this job - or there's another problem
at the stack end of the waste pipe (which I can't get to) which
explains why it is so high. Maybe there's a big joint or elbow at the
stack end which makes this waste mounted so high.

This new bath is a shallow job about 4in lower than a regular bath,
specifically chosen because the lady is severely disabled (spina
bifida) and needed to have the side of the bath she climbs over as low
as possible - I've raised it as far as is reasonable for the
installation, any higher and this lady would have extreme difficulty
getting in/out.

Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a
silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot
tap on a good day.

I'd say that was about right.

PoP

PoP wrote:
Just musing over whether bathrooms in flats are plumbed differently to
regular houses......

I my limited experience this sort of thing is standard for a conversion,
especially in London. At my current flat, the WC waste was actually on
a slight upward slope! Amazingly, it only blocked occasionally. The
same bloke must have done the flat below, because nearly two square
metres of the inner layer of the exterior wall was demolished to make a
small hole for a 110mm vent. This left several joists under a cupboard
unsupported in my flat, and it very nearly collapsed when I converted
that space into a kitchen...

PoP wrote:

I'm fitting a bathroom suite for someone on a ground floor flat
presently. I really can't believe the original plumber got paid to do
the job he did, but maybe it's just a feature of flat installations
that I haven't previously seen.

Problem 1 is that the hot flow is extremely slow. Reason being that
the hot tank has a head of water about 1 foot above the bath, so it
almost dribbles out of the hot tap.

Problem 2 is that the waste pipe to the stack is about 6 inches off
the ground, and the water level is equal to the top of the bath
plughole - so when the bath is emptied it stops emptying at the top of
the plughole. Emptying the bath is of course extremely slow.

With problem 2 the situation is exacerbated by the waste pipe being
run horizontally for several feet to the stack.

I think your flat was plumbed by the same plumber as ours, you've just
described almost exactly the problems I have at our flat.

--
Chris Green )

PoP wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:38:26 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

The hot water flow could be made a bit better with some 28mm pipe for as
much of the run as is possible before connecting to the tap.

That's useful information - though not for this particular job. Reason
being the structural arrangement. It's currently fed from 22mm so I
would guess the 28mm would only be marginally better.

The 'feed' side of our flat has been improved since the old system was
completely ripped out and a boiler with a flue fan installed. This
means that the boiler is now in a much more sensible position than the
old one and the feeds from it to the bathroom etc. are reasonable.


Also, is there room for a clamp on boss under the branch on the main waste
stack ?

As above. I'd have to tear down walls (or at least give them some
serious treatment with my SDS drill) to get to the stack. I don't
precisely know where the stack is in this flat, though I have a
suspicion it is probably at the back of the airing cupboard - with 2
large water tanks in front of it (and 5 control valves with pipe
running in different directions) so I'm not about to expose it.

Yes, as I said earlier in the thread, this is exactly our problem.
The waste stack is in a brickbuilt service duct which is very
difficult to access.


The clamp-on boss suggestion is good idea though!

Just can't understand how any plumber could get away with such an
installation! It would have been so easy to fix these problems at
build time. I'll bet the original site manager wasn't up to speed on
this development.

Our 'piece de resistance' was the junction-box/timer for the bathroom
extract fan. It's in the service duct well out of reach of either of
the access panels. It must have been put there and wired up as the
service duct was built as there's no way you can get to it now.

--
Chris Green )

Ed Sirett wrote:

The reason the bath waste is wrong is for exactly the reason you say - it
would have taken some serious work to put right.
There must have been a reasonable run for the bath waste when it was new
what has changed (the bath has been turned around 180 so the plug is not
near the waste? - Odds on I'd say).

I don't believe ours could *ever* have worked well. Bothe bath and
washbasin have long near horizontal runs.


Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a
silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot
tap on a good day.

Well ours is 1960s I think, but near enough.


Combi boilers are the solution, or if no gas, electric unvented.

Yes, that fixed our 'feed' side problems very elegantly.

--
Chris Green )

PoP wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:11:38 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:

There must have been a reasonable run for the bath waste when it was new
what has changed (the bath has been turned around 180 so the plug is not
near the waste? - Odds on I'd say).

No, it was the original bath I took out earlier in the week. The lady
who owns the flat has had the drainage and fill problems all the time
she's been there.

Yes, us too, the bath I've just replaced is (I'm pretty certain) the
original, as is the washbasin. Neither of them drains well.

--
Chris Green )

PoP wrote:

Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a
silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot
tap on a good day.

I'd say that was about right.

Having found we have almost identical problems maybe we can look for
solutions together. My thread of a few days ago didn't get very far
except some people said that pumped waste isn't totally impossible.
If I can find a practical pump solution for the waste that would be
good for us, do you think it would make sens in your situation too?

--
Chris Green )

On 15 Dec 2003 09:46:35 GMT, wrote:

Our 'piece de resistance' was the junction-box/timer for the bathroom
extract fan. It's in the service duct well out of reach of either of
the access panels. It must have been put there and wired up as the
service duct was built as there's no way you can get to it now.

Referring to another thread for a second - perhaps Channel 5 ought to
do a program 'Incompetent Professional Installations', instead of the
DIY program they are promoting?

Sounds very iffy what you describe.

PoP

On 15 Dec 2003 09:53:18 GMT, wrote:

Having found we have almost identical problems maybe we can look for
solutions together. My thread of a few days ago didn't get very far
except some people said that pumped waste isn't totally impossible.
If I can find a practical pump solution for the waste that would be
good for us, do you think it would make sens in your situation too?

Probably, though I'm not sure I'd be up for installing this pump
arrangement.

I can just imagine installing a pump on the outflow. This pump
increases the pressure on the pipe, which meets up with the stack. Due
to a future blockage in the stack everyone's loo, pedestal unit and
bath get a huge pile of everyone else's pooh filling up......

Alternatively, connecting the wires the wrong way round might result
in the bath being filled with pooh.....

PoP

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On 15 Dec 2003 09:53:18 GMT, wrote:

Having found we have almost identical problems maybe we can look for
solutions together. My thread of a few days ago didn't get very far
except some people said that pumped waste isn't totally impossible.
If I can find a practical pump solution for the waste that would be
good for us, do you think it would make sens in your situation too?

Probably, though I'm not sure I'd be up for installing this pump
arrangement.

I can just imagine installing a pump on the outflow. This pump
increases the pressure on the pipe, which meets up with the stack. Due
to a future blockage in the stack everyone's loo, pedestal unit and
bath get a huge pile of everyone else's pooh filling up......

Alternatively, connecting the wires the wrong way round might result
in the bath being filled with pooh.....

PoP


Saw a DSC (drain cleaning service) so called engineer put a jet washer unit
the up the wrong pipe in a manhole. The people in the block of flats were
not amused as they got their rooms full of the best smelly stuff. :-)) Oh
Boy !!! How we laughed at the look on his face.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message on.co.uk...
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:38:26 +0000, BigWallop wrote:

Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a
silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot
tap on a good day.

Combi boilers are the solution, or if no gas, electric unvented.


Just to re-inforce what has been written.

My situation was: 70's purpose built ground-floor flat. Large HW
cylinder / tank, heated by electric immersion. Under floor electric
heating. All the latest in the 1970's.

It took me two seconds to decide to rip it all out and go for a
Vaillant combi. Ever since I have hot water at mains pressure and I
reclaimed a cupboard from the water tank. Never regretted the decision
- but I was lucky - I had a great plumber and I had bags of time (he
was not instantly available). I think I overpaid for the flat given
the work that had to be done to make it habitable.

My parents have a four bedroom house and run that off a condensing
combi !!

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On 15 Dec 2003 09:46:35 GMT, wrote:

Our 'piece de resistance' was the junction-box/timer for the bathroom
extract fan. It's in the service duct well out of reach of either of
the access panels. It must have been put there and wired up as the
service duct was built as there's no way you can get to it now.

Referring to another thread for a second - perhaps Channel 5 ought to
do a program 'Incompetent Professional Installations', instead of the
DIY program they are promoting?

The BBC do that - Rogue Traders!

PoP wrote:

On 15 Dec 2003 09:53:18 GMT, wrote:


Having found we have almost identical problems maybe we can look for
solutions together. My thread of a few days ago didn't get very far
except some people said that pumped waste isn't totally impossible.
If I can find a practical pump solution for the waste that would be
good for us, do you think it would make sens in your situation too?


Probably, though I'm not sure I'd be up for installing this pump
arrangement.

I can just imagine installing a pump on the outflow. This pump
increases the pressure on the pipe, which meets up with the stack. Due
to a future blockage in the stack everyone's loo, pedestal unit and
bath get a huge pile of everyone else's pooh filling up......

Alternatively, connecting the wires the wrong way round might result
in the bath being filled with pooh.....

PoP


Oh my, overrun with small furry bears that have a penchant for hunny ;-)

Velvet

"Sparks" wrote
| "PoP" wrote
| Referring to another thread for a second - perhaps Channel 5
| ought to do a program 'Incompetent Professional Installations',
| instead of the DIY program they are promoting?
| The BBC do that - Rogue Traders!

And ITV do House of Horrors.

Perhaps we could get a new series - Property Developers From Hell - a
builder takes a run-down house and does as much bodging as possible; a
surveyor does a valuation survey ignoring all the bodges; the house goes on
the market; and the closing moments of the programme are the tears running
down the faces of the new purchasers as they get told they've just bought a
property done up by The Developers From Hell and they've no come-back
because their surveyor passed it!

Following the success of the first series set in Britain, it could be
relocated overseas and we see the tears running down the faces of the new
purchasers as they realise they've bought a property done up by The
Developers From Hell In The Sun.

Home makeover + sadism television - should be a winner. (c) reserved just in
case it is.

Owain

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:35 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

Saw a DSC (drain cleaning service) so called engineer put a jet washer unit
the up the wrong pipe in a manhole. The people in the block of flats were
not amused as they got their rooms full of the best smelly stuff. :-)) Oh
Boy !!! How we laughed at the look on his face.

Yeah, well, happens to the best of us......

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job,
went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up
everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of
the aquavac......

So easy to do! Mind you, you do tend to do it one time only.

PoP

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:35 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

Saw a DSC (drain cleaning service) so called engineer put a jet washer
unit
the up the wrong pipe in a manhole. The people in the block of flats
were
not amused as they got their rooms full of the best smelly stuff. :-))
Oh
Boy !!! How we laughed at the look on his face.

Yeah, well, happens to the best of us......

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job,
went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up
everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of
the aquavac......

So easy to do! Mind you, you do tend to do it one time only.

PoP

......try it with a toner vac - not nice, trust me!

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:35:11 +0000, PoP
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:07:35 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

Saw a DSC (drain cleaning service) so called engineer put a jet washer unit
the up the wrong pipe in a manhole. The people in the block of flats were
not amused as they got their rooms full of the best smelly stuff. :-)) Oh
Boy !!! How we laughed at the look on his face.

Yeah, well, happens to the best of us......

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job,
went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up
everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of
the aquavac......

Have they changed the location then? On my aquavac the suck pipe fits
into the body of the machine and you only use the lid if you need to
blow.....
--
cheers,

witchy/binarydinosaurs

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:18:06 +0000, Witchy
wrote:

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job,
went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up
everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of
the aquavac......

Have they changed the location then? On my aquavac the suck pipe fits
into the body of the machine and you only use the lid if you need to
blow.....

That's what I was referring to - I plugged the pipe into the lid
receptacle whilst my mind was wandering aimlessly.....

PoP

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:41:25 +0000, PoP
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:18:06 +0000, Witchy
wrote:

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job,
went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up
everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of
the aquavac......

Have they changed the location then? On my aquavac the suck pipe fits
into the body of the machine and you only use the lid if you need to
blow.....

That's what I was referring to - I plugged the pipe into the lid
receptacle whilst my mind was wandering aimlessly.....

In other news, after reading your post I cracked open my aquavac after
realising it hadn't actually been used in anger for perhaps counts on
fingers 7 years, so there was practically *vintage* dust in there!
Perhaps I can sell it on ebay

The time before THAT it was used in anger was by my parents, who used
it to suck out all the wasps from a nest that had been built in the
loft and has been discussed here......

The Missus said 'put it in the shed, and if it's still there unused
this time next year we'll chuck it'
--
cheers,

witchy/binarydinosaurs