Does anyone know the location of an online resource I can use to get my head
around how the internals of a toilet flush should work?

It's just that mine is becoming reluctant to flush, despite the float valve
aparently working fine (the cistern fills). One thing which might cause it is
that the washer on the actuator attached to the handle is lifting (I think it
should stay in place sealing the top of the lower chamber). Would this cause
reluctant flushing?

**** description, I know, trouble is I know so little about what the bits are
called that I'm struggling to describe it.

"Abso" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know the location of an online resource I can use to get my
head
around how the internals of a toilet flush should work?

It's just that mine is becoming reluctant to flush, despite the float
valve
aparently working fine (the cistern fills). One thing which might cause
it is
that the washer on the actuator attached to the handle is lifting (I think
it
should stay in place sealing the top of the lower chamber). Would this
cause
reluctant flushing?

**** description, I know, trouble is I know so little about what the bits
are
called that I'm struggling to describe it.


Try Google with: toilet cistern diaphragm

or look at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/bob.bailey2/toilet-t.html

and

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...nks%20etc..htm
scroll to the bottom of this one!

The Mid-Kent quotation of "Only £128.86 includes materials and vat"
www.midken****er.co.uk/services/ household/setprice/toilet.htm
should give you the courage to have a go.

When I had this problem (about 15 years ago) I made a temporary diaphragm
from a piece of stiffish polythene. I come across the replacement from time
to time.

I believe the size and shape of the diaphragm can vary.

Removing the water from the bottom of the cistern can be a pain. I used a
syphon tube intended for beer/wine making. Any water left in the bottom of
the cistern will wet her lovely new bathroom carpet, so be warned!

"John Flax" wrote in message
...

"Abso" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know the location of an online resource I can use to get my
head
around how the internals of a toilet flush should work?

It's just that mine is becoming reluctant to flush, despite the float
valve
aparently working fine (the cistern fills). One thing which might cause
it is
that the washer on the actuator attached to the handle is lifting (I think
it
should stay in place sealing the top of the lower chamber). Would this
cause
reluctant flushing?

**** description, I know, trouble is I know so little about what the bits
are
called that I'm struggling to describe it.


Try Google with: toilet cistern diaphragm

or look at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/bob.bailey2/toilet-t.html

and

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...nks%20etc..htm
scroll to the bottom of this one!

The Mid-Kent quotation of "Only £128.86 includes materials and vat"
www.midken****er.co.uk/services/ household/setprice/toilet.htm
should give you the courage to have a go.
snip

That's really helpful, thanks. I'm now better able to describe the washer I
was talking about above. It sits on the actuator linking the handle to the
diaphragm carrier and seals the point at which the actuator penetrates the
flush chamber. As the handle is operated and the actuator rises, the washer
(which is stuck on the actuator) rises with it, so that some of the
diaphragm's action is wasted by water leaking out of the top of the flush
chamber through the hole. Is this normal, or should the washer remain seated
around the hole, ie. slide down over the actuator shaft? Could this be an
alternative reason for flushing problems?

--
Abso [at] ukrm [dot] net - ignore header email address

Abso wrote:

**** description, I know
^^^^

:-)

--
Ben Blaney
GSF1200 VFR800 CBR600 CD200
"We stopped only for fuel"

http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet.htm

The link describes the type that is common in the USA and being introduced
in the UK now.

I guess the one being described is a siphon cistern which is somewhat
different

--


Regards

John


"R P McMurphy" wrote in message
...
http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet.htm




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/2003

"John" wrote in
:

The link describes the type that is common in the USA and being
introduced in the UK now.

I guess the one being described is a siphon cistern which is somewhat
different

That's right, and I was going to suggest to the OP that if anything needs
renewing, fit a fluidmaster conversion.

I did recently and it's the dogs; dumps the tank in about half the time and
refills - quietly - in well under half the time.

20 ish squid from B&Q

mike r

"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"John" wrote in
:

The link describes the type that is common in the USA and being
introduced in the UK now.

I guess the one being described is a siphon cistern which is somewhat
different

That's right, and I was going to suggest to the OP that if anything needs
renewing, fit a fluidmaster conversion.

I did recently and it's the dogs; dumps the tank in about half the time and
refills - quietly - in well under half the time.

20 ish squid from B&Q

Sounds interesting, I'll check it out.

"Ben Blaney" wrote in message
...
Abso wrote:

**** description, I know
^^^^

:-)

Little things... ;o)

--
Abso [at] ukrm [dot] net - ignore header email address

"Abso" wrote in message
...
"John Flax" wrote in message
...

"Abso" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know the location of an online resource I can use to get
my
head
around how the internals of a toilet flush should work?
---8---
Try Google with: toilet cistern diaphragm
or look at:
http://freespace.virgin.net/bob.bailey2/toilet-t.html
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...nks%20etc..htm
---8---
That's really helpful, thanks. I'm now better able to describe the washer
I
was talking about above. It sits on the actuator linking the handle to
the
diaphragm carrier and seals the point at which the actuator penetrates the
flush chamber. As the handle is operated and the actuator rises, the
washer
(which is stuck on the actuator) rises with it, so that some of the
diaphragm's action is wasted by water leaking out of the top of the flush
chamber through the hole. Is this normal, or should the washer remain
seated
around the hole, ie. slide down over the actuator shaft? Could this be an
alternative reason for flushing problems?

I know what you mean but unless it's an enormously sloppy fit* then as long
as the diaphragm is OK the sheer volume of water being forced up the pipe
should be such that a little bit coming out of that coupling hole won't make
any significant difference.

hth

--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
* looong time ago in Tech one of our lecturers' term for this sort of thing
was 'fitting like a turd in a shirt sleeve'. Just thought you'd like to know
that ;-)

"Abso" wrote in message
...
"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"John" wrote in
:
---8---
... I was going to suggest to the OP that if anything needs
renewing, fit a fluidmaster conversion.

I did recently and it's the dogs; dumps the tank in about half the time
and
refills - quietly - in well under half the time.

20 ish squid from B&Q

Seeing as how this is much more expensive than replacing like with like, I
thought I'd ask - does anyone know how the longevity compares with a
conventional diaphragm flush?

The flapper-type flush valve itself has practically nothing to it so all
there is to replace would be the big washer. The £20 B&Q kit includes a
Fluidmaster bottom entry float valve which you may or may not want. The
flush valve mechanism makes up for being simple by being a bit heavy to
use - it needs quite a push on the button to operate, unlike the vastly
complicated push-button flush valves you get with newer (especially
continental made) close coupled cisterns where the push button operates with
a feather touch. I'd be inclinded to use the flapper valve with an existing
lever handle and bodg^H^H^H^Hengineer a springy extension to the arm inside
the cistern which the lever operates to get a suitable action to work the
valve - that way you'd get a very light lever action, instead of a very
heavy push button one.

OTOH Grahams do a (forget the make) push button operated valve where the
button mechanism is on a flexible linkage (like bike brake/gear cables, but
plastic) and this (a) does have a light action (b) only costs about £12.
Even adding say £5 for a bottom entry equilibrium float valve that's cheaper
than the inferior (IMO) Fluidmaster kit. It also has two flush volumes (for
'liquids' and 'solids')



--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
Copyright (c) Sirius Cybernetics Corporation (formerly Microsoft)

The flapper-type flush valve itself has practically nothing to it so
all there is to replace would be the big washer. The £20 B&Q kit
includes a Fluidmaster bottom entry float valve which you may or may
not want. The flush valve mechanism makes up for being simple by being
a bit heavy to use -

Mine isn't - it's really light , the only problem was it didnt quite fit
the hole in the cistern and required a little bo.. engineering

mike r

"Abso" wrote in message
...
"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...
"Abso" wrote in message
...
"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"John" wrote in
:

---8---

OTOH Grahams do a (forget the make) push button operated valve where the
button mechanism is on a flexible linkage (like bike brake/gear cables,
but
plastic) and this (a) does have a light action (b) only costs about £12.
Even adding say £5 for a bottom entry equilibrium float valve that's
cheaper
than the inferior (IMO) Fluidmaster kit. It also has two flush volumes
(for
'liquids' and 'solids')

It's this one:

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm

I was just going to say that (having found my stock one whilst having a
rootle around in the van)

Which I now have in front of me having visited Grahams this am after
reading
your post. Thanks for the recommendation, it was £12.98 from Grahams and
seems a better bet than the Fluidmaster if only because of the water
saving
split flush button (I'm on a water meter).

Cheers for your contribution, and if it doesn't work at least I have
someone
to blame.. ;o)

[ducks]

:-)



--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
Bob the builder / it'll cost yer
Bob the builder / loadsa dosh

"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...
"Abso" wrote in message
...
snip
It's this one:

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm

I was just going to say that (having found my stock one whilst having a
rootle around in the van)

Ideal. Perhaps you can tell me whether the yellow slider should be clipped on
so that the scooped handle on it makes a smiley face or a sad face when viewed
with the unit in its normal orientation? It's just that it had become
detached in transit and the instructions and website aren't clear on this.
Maybe it makes no difference.

Ta.

--
Abso [at] ukrm [dot] net - ignore header email address

"Abso" wrote in :


Focus DIY were charging £23.98 for a Fluidmaster flush valve (without
float valve) this morning. The same is £13.95ish from Screwfix.. Hmm,
left that one on the shelf..!

B&Q do the whole kit for about that, but I go on Wednesday for me 10% off.


snip
OTOH Grahams do a (forget the make) push button operated valve where
the button mechanism is on a flexible linkage (like bike brake/gear
cables, but plastic) and this (a) does have a light action (b) only
costs about £12. Even adding say £5 for a bottom entry equilibrium
float valve that's cheaper than the inferior (IMO) Fluidmaster kit.
It also has two flush volumes (for 'liquids' and 'solids')

It's this one:

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm
AFAICS they only do complete cisterns, and Graham's wabsite, ahich is a
helluva job to find doesn't own up to havong them, a general google got
nowhere.

Thanks for the recommendation, it was £12.98 from
Grahams and seems a better bet than the Fluidmaster if only because of
the water saving split flush button (I'm on a water meter).

Cheers for your contribution, and if it doesn't work at least I have
someone to blame.. ;o)

And where were all you lot two weeks ago, then?

mike r

"Abso" wrote in message
... "John Stumbles"
] wrote in message
...
"Abso" wrote in message
...
snip
It's this one:

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm

I was just going to say that (having found my stock one whilst having a
rootle around in the van)

Ideal. Perhaps you can tell me whether the yellow slider should be
clipped on
so that the scooped handle on it makes a smiley face or a sad face when
viewed


Sad

with the unit in its normal orientation? It's just that it had become
detached in transit and the instructions and website aren't clear on this.
Maybe it makes no difference.


I'd think it makes no difference though - looks as if the slider just opens
or closes that hole.


--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+

"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...
snip
with the unit in its normal orientation? It's just that it had become
detached in transit and the instructions and website aren't clear on this.
Maybe it makes no difference.


I'd think it makes no difference though - looks as if the slider just opens
or closes that hole.

Yep, reckon you're right. I put it on in the sad position FWIW.

All fitted now, the Multikwik flush flapper and a Fluidmaster float valve on
the filling side. It all works (although I had a bit of a moment when my
inlet isolating valve started unscrewing as I tried to tighten the connection
to the underside of the float valve assembly. Gave the wall a wash at least..
)

Things I've noticed so far:

1 - Flushing the toilet with the lid up splashes the carpet (out of the bowl)
due to the increased flow,
2 - The lid to the cistern doesn't fit properly as it's held off by the
locking nut to the rear of the flush button,
3 - With each flush there are a few dribbles of leakage from the underside of
the close coupled union at the base of the cistern.

1 and 2 don't fuss me overly, although it would be nice to get the cistern lid
so it's level and doesn't rock to and fro. Might have to open out the flush
button mounting hole (downwards) to lower the whole mounting arrangement
(looks like a bugger to drill though).

3 is an issue and probably down to me not replacing the large rubber washer in
the conversion process (no new one in either kit, see..). I guess I'll have
to source one and pull it all apart again (. Can anyone tell me the
standard size so I can get one in without having to take it apart and measure?
TIA.

--
Abso [at] ukrm [dot] net - ignore header email address

"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"Abso" wrote in :


Focus DIY were charging £23.98 for a Fluidmaster flush valve (without
float valve) this morning. The same is £13.95ish from Screwfix.. Hmm,
left that one on the shelf..!

B&Q do the whole kit for about that, but I go on Wednesday for me 10% off.

I bought the fluidmaster float valve there today for £8.33 (bargain), but
didn't see the complete kits although I was looking for them.

snip
OTOH Grahams do a (forget the make) push button operated valve where
the button mechanism is on a flexible linkage (like bike brake/gear
cables, but plastic) and this (a) does have a light action (b) only
costs about £12. Even adding say £5 for a bottom entry equilibrium
float valve that's cheaper than the inferior (IMO) Fluidmaster kit.
It also has two flush volumes (for 'liquids' and 'solids')

It's this one:

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm
AFAICS they only do complete cisterns, and Graham's wabsite, ahich is a
helluva job to find doesn't own up to havong them, a general google got
nowhere.

Their website is well hidden. I only found it indirectly (via another site
which had come up in a Google-search).

Thanks for the recommendation, it was £12.98 from
Grahams and seems a better bet than the Fluidmaster if only because of
the water saving split flush button (I'm on a water meter).

Cheers for your contribution, and if it doesn't work at least I have
someone to blame.. ;o)

And where were all you lot two weeks ago, then?

Erm.. can't remember - why, what happened?

--
Abso [at] ukrm [dot] net - ignore header email address

"Abso" wrote in :



Their website is well hidden. I only found it indirectly (via another
site which had come up in a Google-search).

Yep, I found the website, but I can't find multiflush in the pesky website


And where were all you lot two weeks ago, then?

Erm.. can't remember - why, what happened?

I was looking to upgrade me bog, and didn't know about multiquick.

Still, if this thread hadn't occurred I would have been well happy with
fluidmaster - (stick with that thought,)

mike r

"Abso" wrote in :


Things I've noticed so far:

1 - Flushing the toilet with the lid up splashes the carpet (out of
the bowl) due to the increased flow,
Wow
2 - The lid to the cistern doesn't fit properly as it's held off by
the locking nut to the rear of the flush button,
Shoulda gotta fluidmaster Nyaah nyaah (although I had to butcher my button
to get it in the orifice
3 - With each flush there are a few dribbles of leakage from the
underside of the close coupled union at the base of the cistern.


Things I've noticed so far:

1 - Flushing the toilet with the lid up splashes the carpet (out of
the bowl) due to the increased flow,
Wow
2 - The lid to the cistern doesn't fit properly as it's held off by
the locking nut to the rear of the flush button,

Shoulda gotta fluidmaster (Nyaah nyahh) though I had to butcher the button
to get it in the orifice. I certainly didnit want to risk attacking the
ceramic cistern!

3 - With each flush there are a few dribbles of leakage from the
underside of the close coupled union at the base of the cistern.

I got more of a flood, the builder gorillas had really graunched it down
and folded the doughnut, and seepage had stuck it to the metal bit so I
thought it was one unit


3 is an issue and probably down to me not replacing the large rubber
washer in the conversion process (no new one in either kit, see..). I
guess I'll have to source one and pull it all apart again (. Can
anyone tell me the standard size so I can get one in without having to
take it apart and measure? TIA.

A good plumbers merchant - I don't know if there's an industry standard, my
man just said "Ideal, righto, 2 and a half squid" and gave me an enormously
fat and sassy one, which unfortunately I had to pull down more than I
wanted to to reach the pipework. ISTM it should seal with little more than
it's own weight, but tell *that* to a builder

m r

"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"Abso" wrote in :

http://www.multikwik.com/multiflush.htm
AFAICS they only do complete cisterns,

It's definitely available separately - I've had 2 from Grahams, and the OP's
bought one there as well.



--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+