On 07/08/2016 21:50, Roger Mills wrote:
On 07/08/2016 12:45, Maurice wrote:


I've never seen a chamber with such a projecting flange.


I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.

What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?

I have a similar lid in my drive - which is clad with imprinted concrete
rather than crazy paving. Mine doesn't screw down though, but it *does*
have a couple of holes into which cranked T-bars can be inserted to lift
it. My holes look like what I imagine your 4 holes would look like if
you removed(!) the screws. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow in
case they help.

Lids are only normally screwed down when they're inside a building and
need to be completely sealed against odors and surcharging. These
invariably have a rubber gasket underneath. I have a spare (cast iron -
not paved) lid and frame of that sort, and will post some pictures of
that, too, if I've got time tomorrow.


Its a double sealed inspection cover.
There are loads of different ones here...

https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk...le-covers.html

The double sealed ones have four screws just like the OP has and they
hold the cover down.

The others have holes for keys to remove the lid.

The double seal ones you can use a "J" key that hooks into the hole
between the top and the threaded hole in the frame.

They are something like
http://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-o...ing-keys/6650k
but you need to check the size of the hole under the screw.

On 08/08/2016 10:26, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/08/2016 21:50, Roger Mills wrote:
On 07/08/2016 12:45, Maurice wrote:


I've never seen a chamber with such a projecting flange.


I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.

What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?

I have a similar lid in my drive - which is clad with imprinted concrete
rather than crazy paving. Mine doesn't screw down though, but it *does*
have a couple of holes into which cranked T-bars can be inserted to lift
it. My holes look like what I imagine your 4 holes would look like if
you removed(!) the screws. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow in
case they help.

Lids are only normally screwed down when they're inside a building and
need to be completely sealed against odors and surcharging. These
invariably have a rubber gasket underneath. I have a spare (cast iron -
not paved) lid and frame of that sort, and will post some pictures of
that, too, if I've got time tomorrow.


Its a double sealed inspection cover.
There are loads of different ones here...

https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk...le-covers.html


The double sealed ones have four screws just like the OP has and they
hold the cover down.

The others have holes for keys to remove the lid.

The double seal ones you can use a "J" key that hooks into the hole
between the top and the threaded hole in the frame.

They are something like
http://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-o...ing-keys/6650k
but you need to check the size of the hole under the screw.


This is almost certainly what the OP has got:
https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk...-10-tonne.html

[Don't know about the exact size, but this sort of thing]

The screws hold the lid down to tapped holes in the under-frame. When
they are removed, two sets of J keys can be inserted onto the holes to
lift the lid - a two person job in this case.

All the OP needs to do is to remove the screws(!)

I don't think the photos which I was going to take would add anything
useful to that, so I won't bother unless the OP specifically wants me to.
--
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Roger
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On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 21:50:54 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.

What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?

Of course there's a (narrow) flange to stop the cover falling in.

But the size of flange required to take the screw shown would have to be
wider than that flange, and I've never seen one like that (yet).

Here is the reply I got from the previous owner, by the way:

"..the cover you are talking about does not need special tools or
handles, only a large screwdriver. Suggest a good thump in the
centre
of the drain with a large piece of wood (fence post?) then just
lever
it out with something like a spade."

- which appears to be saying that it *is* screwed down.

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On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 14:13:46 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

This is almost certainly what the OP has got:

Looks like it! An internal fixture used on a patio.

Ah well - time to order the impact driver...

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On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:57:45 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

This looks like a job for an impact driver.

Numerous applications of PlusGas and Impact Driver* did the trick!

The 'screws' are actually 1/4" dia 2" bolts with a circular slotted head.
Cleaned the gunge off, applied silicon spray to thread and bolthole and
replaced them.

Looks as though the bottom 1/2" of the thread screws into a flange
projecting
from the side of the chamber, but what I still need to check is whether
or
not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
unscrewung
from flange.
If it does, then perhaps there's a handle of some kind that could screw
into that (or try tying rope round bolt head, but head isn't all that
wide).

What might do the trick - if it exists - is a lifting spindle with spring
arms at the end, that could be passed down through the bolthole until it
comes out of the lower edge of the lid, at which point the spring arms
would
shoot out and provide lifting capability. (Once lid lifted out,
retract arms to retrieve spindle.)
But probably not enough clearance between lid and chamber flange for
arms
to operate.

Tomorrow will get a screw out and see if it still grips inside the lid on
the
way out. Too exhausted to do any more today...

In the meantime, anyone know of lifting gadgets for these situations,
please?

(* Draper kit; head setting for unscrew quite ambiguous. Trial and
error...)

--
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Maurice wrote:
On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:57:45 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

This looks like a job for an impact driver.

Numerous applications of PlusGas and Impact Driver* did the trick!

The 'screws' are actually 1/4" dia 2" bolts with a circular slotted head.
Cleaned the gunge off, applied silicon spray to thread and bolthole and
replaced them.

Looks as though the bottom 1/2" of the thread screws into a flange
projecting
from the side of the chamber, but what I still need to check is whether
or
not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
unscrewung
from flange.

Unlikely I would have thought at that would interfere with the screws
clamping force.

Tim

--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

On 15/08/2016 17:26, Maurice wrote:
On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:57:45 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

This looks like a job for an impact driver.

Numerous applications of PlusGas and Impact Driver* did the trick!

The 'screws' are actually 1/4" dia 2" bolts with a circular slotted head.
Cleaned the gunge off, applied silicon spray to thread and bolthole and
replaced them.

Looks as though the bottom 1/2" of the thread screws into a flange
projecting
from the side of the chamber, but what I still need to check is whether
or
not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
unscrewung
from flange.
If it does, then perhaps there's a handle of some kind that could screw
into that (or try tying rope round bolt head, but head isn't all that
wide).

What might do the trick - if it exists - is a lifting spindle with spring
arms at the end, that could be passed down through the bolthole until it
comes out of the lower edge of the lid, at which point the spring arms
would
shoot out and provide lifting capability. (Once lid lifted out,
retract arms to retrieve spindle.)
But probably not enough clearance between lid and chamber flange for
arms
to operate.

Tomorrow will get a screw out and see if it still grips inside the lid on
the
way out. Too exhausted to do any more today...

In the meantime, anyone know of lifting gadgets for these situations,
please?

(* Draper kit; head setting for unscrew quite ambiguous. Trial and
error...)


Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.

Or a trolley jack at one end and a human at the other ...

On 15/08/2016 22:47, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.

Or a trolley jack at one end and a human at the other ...


For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath, Once raised this far and is supported with the wood
just lift one edge by hand so that the the cover is vertical and then
just swing it to one side.


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alan_m wrote:

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

But is it filled with umpty kilos of stone/cement? And has it been
sitting there for years getting sand wedged into all its crevices?

On 15/08/2016 23:22, Andy Burns wrote:
alan_m wrote:

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

But is it filled with umpty kilos of stone/cement? And has it been
sitting there for years getting sand wedged into all its crevices?


It's bloody heavy - probably the original from 100+ years ago.

--
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath,

The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
time
to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.

Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
there.
Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
utility bar could get its claw in.

--
/\/\aurice
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Maurice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath,

The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
time
to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.

Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
there.
Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
utility bar could get its claw in.


Are you just trolling or are you wilfully ignoring the suggestion to use J
keys as suggested (and link provided) earlier on?

It's clear that the clearances down the sides are too narrow for any prying
device so you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the
screw holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal. Hardly rocket science to
improvise something if you don't fancy buying keys.

Tim

--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:42:17 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.

I can't find anything there that is other than hook/T-end,D-end - no
use.
None for threaded situation.

The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
this on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva

but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

--
/\/\aurice
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Maurice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:42:17 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.

I can't find anything there that is other than hook/T-end,D-end - no
use.

How do you know? A hook/J-ended bar seems to be exactly what you need.

None for threaded situation.

As I've already explained, the cover is almost certainly unthreaded. A
threaded lifting bar is probably not what you want.



The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
this on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva

but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

Look on eBay for "lifting bars". Pick a J shaped one that looks like it
will fit through the holes.

Tim

--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 16:26:23 +0000, I wrote:

what I still need to check is whether
or not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
unscrewing from flange.


Sadly, it doesn't, although there may be a gadget that has a slightly
larger screw thread that would grip the side of the bolt hole.
(Or one of those expanding bolts (e.g. Rawlplug) that are inserted and
then
expanded to grip.)
That might be the only 'lifting' solution.

What might do the trick - if it exists - is a lifting spindle with
spring arms at the end, that could be passed down through the bolthole
until it comes out of the lower edge of the lid, at which point the
spring arms would shoot out and provide lifting capability.
But probably not enough clearance between lid and chamber flange for
arms to operate.

No, not enough...

--
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On 15/08/2016 22:47, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.

Or a trolley jack at one end and a human at the other ...


I don't see how that would help. You need two hands on each pair of
keys, angling them towards each other as you lift.
--
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Roger
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On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:54:01 +0100, Phil L wrote:

It should have handles that pull up so that the whole thing, paving and
all lifts out, but the handles won't be under those screws - it looks
like they've pointed over them.

I suspect you are right!

But I'm reluctant to remove the infill, as the cover is currently flush
with
the often-used paved patio, so the lat resort is to try to lever the lid
out
with e.g. a spade, although the gap between cover and frame is small
(e.g.
3mm) at best..

--
/\/\aurice
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On 15/08/2016 23:19, alan_m wrote:
On 15/08/2016 22:47, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.

Or a trolley jack at one end and a human at the other ...


For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath, Once raised this far and is supported with the wood
just lift one edge by hand so that the the cover is vertical and then
just swing it to one side.



But, in this case, the lid is effectively a box which is a fairly tight
fit inside another box. You need to left it out square - otherwise it
will jam.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 16/08/2016 15:17, Maurice wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath,

The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
time
to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.

Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
there.
Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
utility bar could get its claw in.


Pressure washer, to wash the crud out?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 16/08/2016 15:44, Maurice wrote:
The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
this on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva

but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

Forget the bl**dy threads! The holes in the lid are almost certainly not
threaded. Even if they were, the J keys will hook onto the undersides of
the holes, allowing the lid to be lifted.

[Insert the hooked end of the keys into the holes with the handles
almost horizontal and facing each other. Then move the handles towards
the upright position - and lift.]
--
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Roger
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On 16/08/2016 17:37, Roger Mills wrote:
On 16/08/2016 15:44, Maurice wrote:
The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
this on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva

but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

Forget the bl**dy threads! The holes in the lid are almost certainly not
threaded. Even if they were, the J keys will hook onto the undersides of
the holes, allowing the lid to be lifted.

[Insert the hooked end of the keys into the holes with the handles
almost horizontal and facing each other. Then move the handles towards
the upright position - and lift.]

I will post another link to show what the handles look like but to be
honest I don't think it will help do so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-.../dp/B01589XXNS

dennis@home wrote:

I will post another link to show what the handles look like but to be
honest I don't think it will help do so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-.../dp/B01589XXNS

I'd expect those to buckle at the mere sight of a stone filled cover,
even before I saw they were Silverline.

On 16/08/2016 20:52, Andy Burns wrote:
dennis@home wrote:

I will post another link to show what the handles look like but to be
honest I don't think it will help do so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-.../dp/B01589XXNS


I'd expect those to buckle at the mere sight of a stone filled cover,
even before I saw they were Silverline.


I did say look like.
They claim to be hardened so they should be quite strong.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.

Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.

As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
down
that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
hole,
what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?

It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
flange
into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
a
grip.
That's why I didn't pursue 'J' keys (or 'T; keys or 'D' keys).

And that's why I suspect - as I postulated earlier - something like an
expanding rawlplug might do the trick, by clamping within the bolt hole,
but
for all I know the bolt hole may be just a gap in the infill below which
the
receiving threaded flange sits, rather than a hole in a solid that could
cope
with the pressure of an expanding plug.

Still awaiting reply from www.manholecovers.co.uk w.r.t. their product:

"All trays manufactured locked with 4 galvanised
steel screws as standard. When unlocked screw holes act as lifting
eyes."

as to HOW the screw holes act as 'lifting eyes'...

Failing all else, I shall have to leave the situation as is, so that
if/when the drain unblocking guy next comes he will be able to remove the
bolts (which he failed to do on his first visit)...

Many thanks to all who have responded - much appreciated!

Perhaps there is still time to find a solution to 'take gold'...

--
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Maurice wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.

Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.

The penny drops!


As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
down
that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
hole,
what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?

It's called "poking it in and wiggling it until it jams".


It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
flange
into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
a
grip.

Obvious (to me anyway), you're not going to insert it into the threaded
parts of the hole.

From looking at the pictures of the new lid posted previously the screws
pass through a square section hole before reaching the threaded hole in the
lower flange. Just poke the J key through the hole and jam it up against
the side of the square section of tube.

That's why I didn't pursue 'J' keys (or 'T; keys or 'D' keys).

And that's why I suspect - as I postulated earlier - something like an
expanding rawlplug might do the trick, by clamping within the bolt hole,
but
for all I know the bolt hole may be just a gap in the infill below which
the
receiving threaded flange sits, rather than a hole in a solid that could
cope
with the pressure of an expanding plug.

Still awaiting reply from www.manholecovers.co.uk w.r.t. their product:

"All trays manufactured locked with 4 galvanised
steel screws as standard. When unlocked screw holes act as lifting
eyes."

as to HOW the screw holes act as 'lifting eyes'...

I think I've covered that.


Failing all else, I shall have to leave the situation as is, so that
if/when the drain unblocking guy next comes he will be able to remove the
bolts (which he failed to do on his first visit)...

Many thanks to all who have responded - much appreciated!

Perhaps there is still time to find a solution to 'take gold'...


Given the minimal price of lifting keys on eBay, just buy some and try
them.

Tim

--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

On 17-Aug-16 12:10 PM, Maurice wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.

Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.

As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
down
that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
hole,
what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?

It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
flange
into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
a
grip.

Now you have the bolts out, you can use a thin screwdriver to work out
what is down there. Or shine a light down.

Are you over-thinking this problem?