On Friday, 17 June 2016 15:28:56 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia, China or India to name but a few.

So your saying if we vote out I wn;t be able to order a New Mac or buy a
T-shirt from china.

If we don't have a trade deal with china how can we buy their steel ?

Why do you think anyone would refuse to sell you anything?

if someone bullied you into not letting you sell stuff such by putting in tarriffs on vital products like food.
That is what tarriffs are for isn't it ?



It's getting others to buy your goods that is the difficult bit.

Apparently we have a company that makes good hovercraft (we invented them didn;t we) countries outsite the EU want to buy then but teh EU refuse to let us sell them unless we add 50K to the price. Perhaps this is because Germany can;t compete.


So you
have money to buy the things you want.

--
*If you lived in your car, you'd be home by now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 17 June 2016 15:31:38 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since there
are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other nation.
We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of it,
assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was negotiated
and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

I think a trade 'deal' is an agreement between the seller and purchaser.

Unless of course a trade deal requires you to grease the areholes of polititions in brussels.


Of course a newly exited UK could trade without any trade deals in place,
but it wouldn't be very competitive, compared to those nations and groups
of nations between which there were deals in place.

On 17/06/16 16:27, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:46:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 17/06/16 14:38, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:24:04 +0100, Robin wrote:


Eg a quick look at the map at

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/149622.htm

will show the *EU* does not have "trade deals" in force with the USA,
NZ, Australia, China or India. But it is more advanced than the UK
since we can't do owt separate from the EU.

Oh, the source? Right, its the Vote Leave campaign literature.

Are you serious? That is an official EU website!

What are you saying? That the EU supports the point made by the Vote
Leave literature and you don't like that?

No that it does and I do like that.


I was referencing the Vote Leave document.



--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 17/06/16 16:51, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 17/06/16 15:31, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and
that the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

The blatancy of your lying is staggering

Of course a newly exited UK could trade without any trade deals in
place, but it wouldn't be very competitive, compared to those nations
and groups of nations between which there were deals in place.


Which are very very few and far between in reality.

the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't benefit
from it at all.

It means that UK manufacturer goods or services don't attract additional
taxation when sold/proviided to the rest of the EU. If you don't know
that, then you shouldn't be discussing the subject.

It will have almost no impact when we leave.

It will have amajor impact on sales to thn EU

Not if the pound drops against the Euro by the amount of the tarriff. It
wuill have NO effect.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mark Allread wrote:
But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals. Reference was
made to India as an example but what I have seen clearly states that we
have no current trade deal with India.

Of course it doesn't *have* to negotiate any trade deals. Most countries
do allow trade with others. It's the terms of that trade which need a
deal.

For example, India might put a tarrif on all imports from countries where
it hasn't got a deal.

India is a member of the WTO

It cannot randomly put tariffs on items willy-nilly, it has to follow WTO
rules, or risk being thrown out (it has been a member of GATT since 1948, so
seems reasonable to assume it does want to stay in the club)

Say 25%. Obviously they'd be happy to *sell* to the
UK tarrif free. But this would put the UK at a trade disadvantage over
another country that had a deal with India to sell to them tarrif free.

which countries would that be (we have learnt that it doesn't include the
EU)?

Such trade deals tend to take ages to negotiate. Some ongoing for many
many years. Even more so between a large country like India and a small
one like the UK. A large country is going to be keener to make a deal with
another large one.

The measure of "size" for trade deals has to be based upon GDP. On that
measure the UK is a large country.

It is pointless India putting more effort into a deal with Bangladesh than
the UK on the basis that Bangladesh had 3 times the population, because all
of these, almost 200 million people, are poor and don't have the money to
buy much of what India has to sell.

tim

i

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:03:37 +0100, tim... wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and
that the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

Most of the Remainers

"Most" is quite a broad-brush to wave about.

But the fact is that anybody who thinks that - whichever side they're on
- is wrong.

Of course a newly exited UK could trade without any trade deals in
place, but it wouldn't be very competitive, compared to those nations
and groups of nations between which there were deals in place.

there are hundreds of country pairs that happily trade with each other
without a separate deal in place. the idea that it is difficult is
nonsense

Nobody said it was difficult...

Look, it's very simple.

If you import something from the US you pay duty, 10% normally.

If we (UK or EU) had a free trade deal with the US that said "zero duty
on this category of product", you would not pay duty. The US would be
more competitive than a random other source - Canada, say - that we
didn't have that deal with.

That's how free trade deals work.

It's also why we separate trade deals are utterly pointless while we're
in the EU - because if the UK applied zero duty to US goods in a
category, but Germany didn't, we could buy the same things through
Germany and not pay the duty.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't benefit
from it at all.


I did NOT write that, Poor snipping by someone

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

charles wrote:
In , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/06/16 15:31, Adrian wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,


and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and
that the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.


Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.


You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.


Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?


You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.


We dont.


The blatancy of your lying is staggering


Of course a newly exited UK could trade without any trade deals in
place, but it wouldn't be very competitive, compared to those nations
and groups of nations between which there were deals in place.



Which are very very few and far between in reality.


the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't benefit
from it at all.

It means that UK manufacturer goods or services don't attract additional
taxation when sold/proviided to the rest of the EU. If you don't know
that, then you shouldn't be discussing the subject.


It will have almost no impact when we leave.

It will have amajor impact on sales to thn EU


No, because we buy more from them than they buy from us and we
have alternative sources of product available.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
there are hundreds of country pairs that happily trade with each other
without a separate deal in place. the idea that it is difficult is
nonsense

Can you name a pair of countries that trade happily with no formal trade
deal?

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/06/16 17:29, Adrian wrote:
It's also why we separate trade deals are utterly pointless while we're
in the EU - because if the UK applied zero duty to US goods in a
category, but Germany didn't, we could buy the same things through
Germany and not pay the duty.


I have read the above three times, and am still scratching my head.

If the UK applied zero duty to US goods they would be *cheaper* here
than Germany.

Which is why the EU wont allow us to.

This was the who ****storm that went down when we entered the EU, and NZ
lamb and butter had to have a tarriff applied, and we bankrupted NZ farmers.



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 17/06/16 17:30, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't benefit
from it at all.


I did NOT write that, Poor snipping by someone

No, I did


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Why do you think anyone would refuse to sell you anything?

if someone bullied you into not letting you sell stuff such by putting
in tarriffs on vital products like food. That is what tarriffs are for
isn't it ?

Let me get this right. They're going to put tarrifs on the good they sell
to us? Care to explain?

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/06/16 16:51, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 17/06/16 15:31, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and
that the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the
basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

The blatancy of your lying is staggering

Of course a newly exited UK could trade without any trade deals in
place, but it wouldn't be very competitive, compared to those nations
and groups of nations between which there were deals in place.


Which are very very few and far between in reality.

the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't benefit
from it at all.

It means that UK manufacturer goods or services don't attract additional
taxation when sold/proviided to the rest of the EU. If you don't know
that, then you shouldn't be discussing the subject.

It will have almost no impact when we leave.

It will have amajor impact on sales to thn EU

Not if the pound drops against the Euro by the amount of the tarriff.
It wuill have NO effect.


More likely to go the other way IMO.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't
benefit from it at all.


I did NOT write that, Poor snipping by someone

Go back and read the next line. Explains it all. ;-)

--
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/2016 12:54, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the
UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ, Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

We are still a member of WTO (twice in fact, directly as the UK where we
pay the membership fees, and indirectly as a member of the EU where no
fees are paid) so that would give as a basic trade deal with other WTO
members.

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate those,
the two years for the EU exit process is rather short for the usual
negotiations, but the carrot to the EU to get their finger out would be
continuing to sell their cars (and windmills, etc) to us without duty
slapped on the price.



As I understand it, you don't *have* to have trade deals in order to trade
with other countries - but it sometimes helps.

Again, as I understand it, neither the UK nor the EU currently has a trade
deal with the USA - this is what TTIP is all about, but hasn't yet been
agreed. But we *still* do a lot of trade with the US.

[As far as I can see, TTIP would be bad news for us anyway - so if we're
not in the EU at the time when it's finally agreed, so much the better!]

As currently "leaked" it seems to be a bad deal for many of the countries of
the EU.

The negotiators seem to be doing a **** poor job at representing the
interests of the countries that they are negotiating for and what they end
up with stands every chance of being voted down when it gets to the council
of ministers - in 30 years time :-)

tim

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Roger Mills writes:
On 17/06/2016 12:54, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the
UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

We are still a member of WTO (twice in fact, directly as the UK where we
pay the membership fees, and indirectly as a member of the EU where no
fees are paid) so that would give as a basic trade deal with other WTO
members.

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate those,
the two years for the EU exit process is rather short for the usual
negotiations, but the carrot to the EU to get their finger out would be
continuing to sell their cars (and windmills, etc) to us without duty
slapped on the price.

It's *much* more important for the EU to ensure that we fail if we're
outside the EU than it is to sell extra German cars to us.

This is the fine line that they will have to walk with their renegotiation

I am not as convinced as you that the German car manufactures (and don't
forget component manufactures) will lose that discussion.

Failure to
ensure we struggle outside the EU will lead to rapid collapse of the whole

It will take 10 years for us to show that being outside can be a success.

Lots of other world events will have happened by then.

tim

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 17 June 2016 14:07:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:33 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

Correct. And that's been the situation since we joined the common market
in 1973.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

The EU has no trade deal with the USA - that's what TTIP will be.

I can go into the Apple store in stratford 'city' and by a computer.

I'm not into cars but I'mm pretty sure I could buy a car made in the USA.

The EU has no trade deal with Australia or NZ - last year, there was an
announcement that discussion towards one would be starting in 2017.

So no boomerans until, no fosters lager :-@ then how will we survive.

The only part of "Fosters lager" that has been imported is the brand name

it's made here

tim

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:38:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It's also why we separate trade deals are utterly pointless while we're
in the EU - because if the UK applied zero duty to US goods in a
category, but Germany didn't, we could buy the same things through
Germany and not pay the duty.

I have read the above three times, and am still scratching my head.

Sorry. You're right. What I meant to say was that if the UK applied duty,
but Germany didn't.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Why do you think anyone would refuse to sell you anything?

if someone bullied you into not letting you sell stuff such by putting
in tarriffs on vital products like food. That is what tarriffs are for
isn't it ?

Let me get this right. They're going to put tarrifs on the good they sell
to us?

no that isn't what he said

read it again

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
there are hundreds of country pairs that happily trade with each other
without a separate deal in place. the idea that it is difficult is
nonsense

Can you name a pair of countries that trade happily with no formal trade
deal?

I meant other than standard WTO rules

(I rather thought that was obvious in the context of my other contributions)

tim

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

We will use standard WTO rules until we can negotiate something better.

We will almost certainly, unilaterally remove import tariffs from stuff that
we "need" to import, such as food!

tim

On 17/06/16 17:55, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

WE already don't have any trade deals at all with the majority of the
people we trade with in cash terms

You don't heed a trade deal to trade.



--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 17/06/16 17:56, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:38:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It's also why we separate trade deals are utterly pointless while we're
in the EU - because if the UK applied zero duty to US goods in a
category, but Germany didn't, we could buy the same things through
Germany and not pay the duty.

I have read the above three times, and am still scratching my head.

Sorry. You're right. What I meant to say was that if the UK applied duty,
but Germany didn't.

Why on earth would we?
Brexit is all about getting out from a trade cartel that only allows
free trade between its members, and is incapable of doing a deal with
anyone else.

Since we trade more with NON EU poeple its to our davnage not to put up
barriers to trade with them.

We USED to have pretty much free trade with te commonwealth. The EU puts
a stop to that. Big mistake. The commonwealth is now a far far bigger
market.


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:32:06 +0100, tim... wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis
of it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows
that but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit
supporters do not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

We will use standard WTO rules until we can negotiate something better.

Great, so we're all agreed. Lovely.

On 17/06/16 18:32, tim... wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

We will use standard WTO rules until we can negotiate something better.

We will almost certainly, unilaterally remove import tariffs from stuff
that we "need" to import, such as food!


Cheap NZ butter and lamb, and the return of IXL tinned fruit.

YAY!

tim









--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

"Mark Allread" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:54:40 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia, China or India to name but a few.

We are still a member of WTO (twice in fact, directly as the UK where we
pay the membership fees, and indirectly as a member of the EU where no
fees are paid) so that would give as a basic trade deal with other WTO
members.

Yep, I get that.

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and
that the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

It wouldnt, it would be free to trade under the WTO rules,
just like the US, China etc does with the EU currently.

Reference was made to India as an example but what I have
seen clearly states that we have no current trade deal with India.

And dont need to have any to trade with India with Britain outside the EU.

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 07:31:19 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since there are
no deals in place currently between the UK and any other nation. We could
ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of it, assuming that's
what we wanted to have, but until that was negotiated and agreed, there
would be nothing in place.

There doesnt need to be anything to trade. That is the whole point of the
WTO rules.

"Mark Allread" wrote in message
o.uk...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:24:04 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 17/06/2016 13:31, Mark Allread wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:54:40 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we
aren't allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia, China or India to name but a few.

We are still a member of WTO (twice in fact, directly as the UK where
we pay the membership fees, and indirectly as a member of the EU where
no fees are paid) so that would give as a basic trade deal with other
WTO members.

Yep, I get that.

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals. Reference was
made to India as an example but what I have seen clearly states that we
have no current trade deal with India.


This is supposed to be a DIY group so can people please consider doing a
bit of research rather than posting "a bloke in the pub said" stuff? And
also please cite your sources?

Eg a quick look at the map at

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/149622.htm

will show the *EU* does not have "trade deals" in force with the USA,
NZ, Australia, China or India. But it is more advanced than the UK
since we can't do owt separate from the EU.

Oh, the source? Right, its the Vote Leave campaign literature.

Odd how they say we don't have any trade deals but Brexiteers on the
Group have claimed we do.

Trivial to check what trade deals Britain and the EU currently have.

"Mark Allread" wrote in message
o.uk...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:11:37 +0000, Adrian wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 07:31:19 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate
those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals.

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since there
are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other nation. We
could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis of it, assuming
that's what we wanted to have, but until that was negotiated and agreed,
there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that but
sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do not.

Nothing to know. Britain would be free to trade under the WTO rules and that
is in fact how the trade between Britain and the EU and the US happens now.
Between Britain and the EU and China happens too. Clearly that works fine.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Mark Allread wrote

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate those,

and that is where I was told I was wrong (along with others) and that
the UK would *not* need to re-negotiate any trade deals. Reference was
made to India as an example but what I have seen clearly states that we
have no current trade deal with India.

Of course it doesn't *have* to negotiate any trade deals.
Most countries do allow trade with others.

In fact there are none that don’t.

It's the terms of that trade which need a deal.

Nope, if there is no bilateral trade agreement, trade is done
under the WTO rules. That is the whole point of the WTO.

For example, India might put a tarrif on all imports
from countries where it hasn't got a deal. Say 25%.

No country that matters does that.

Obviously they'd be happy to *sell* to the UK tarrif free.

But this would put the UK at a trade disadvantage over another
country that had a deal with India to sell to them tarrif free.

Such trade deals tend to take ages to negotiate. Some
ongoing for many many years. Even more so between
a large country like India and a small one like the UK.

It isnt the size of the country that matters with that.

A large country is going to be keener
to make a deal with another large one.

It’s the size of the economy that matters and
clearly there isnt any trade agreement between
the EU and China or the EU and the US either
and trade works fine anyway.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Roger Mills writes:
On 17/06/2016 12:54, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the
UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

We are still a member of WTO (twice in fact, directly as the UK where we
pay the membership fees, and indirectly as a member of the EU where no
fees are paid) so that would give as a basic trade deal with other WTO
members.

But it wouldn't be a *free* trade deal, we'd have to re-negotiate those,
the two years for the EU exit process is rather short for the usual
negotiations, but the carrot to the EU to get their finger out would be
continuing to sell their cars (and windmills, etc) to us without duty
slapped on the price.

It's *much* more important for the EU to
ensure that we fail if we're outside the EU

Not even possible for the EU to do that. The most it
can ever do is impose massive trade barriers with the
EU and it can even legally do that given the WTO
rules that requires the EU to have the SAME tariffs
for everyone with a particular class of goods.

Yes, the EU can certainly treat Britain the same
way as it does all other countries outside the
EU with stuff they sell to the EU, instead of the
current tariff and quota free trade with Britain,
but that can't possibly see Britain fail. The most
that it might do is cripple British agricultural
exports to the EU and see the car manufacturers
that currently manufacture in Britain move those
car plants to the EU so they can continue to ship
those cars and engines etc tariff free to the EU.
That isnt going to see Britain fail.

than it is to sell extra German cars to us. Failure
to ensure we struggle outside the EU will lead
to rapid collapse of the whole EU,

BULL****. France and Germany arent going
to leave because they are the ones that set it
up. Spain, Italy Greece etc arent going to leave
because they would then have no one to bail
them out when their banks implode spectacularly.

A few like Holland and some Scandinavian countries
might well prefer the sort of arrangement that Denmark
and Switzerland have, but the EU would survive them
leaving fine.

The more recent joiners arent going to leave whatever
Britain does, because they get far more from the EU
than they have to pay the EU, that is why they joined
and that was so recently that few would have decided
that it was a bad move to join.

something the commission knows only too well. In any case,
even without any duty, German cars will almost certainly
become significantly more expensive as the pound slides.

But they still leave the alternatives for dead and if the
pound does slide, all the alternatives would increase in
price anyway except for the yank crap still made in Britain.

(I think the EU will eventually collapse either way, but I'd much
rather we were a key part of repairing it than outside it.)

Makes a lot more sense to be out of the EU when it is desperately
attempting to keep the eurozone working and then rejoin the EU
once it has collapsed and has fixed the problem that caused the
collapse, don't bother with a common currency anymore and
have a much more democratic process for deciding EU policy.

As I understand it, you don't *have* to have trade deals in
order to trade with other countries - but it sometimes helps.

You need trade deals if you want duty-less trade.

Nope, the current fashion is to reduce duty levels unilaterally.

There's a duty applied to many goods imported from the
US, and they do likewise to many goods we export to them.

But that duty rate isn't very high now. Low enough so that
even with that duty, almost all the computers/smartphones
and all sorts of other technology and cars and aircraft are
imported anyway.

Also, the regulatory issues make that more expensive
for manufacturers, as individual trade deals each have
to meet completely different product standards, which
is not the case in the EU free trade area due to standards
harmonisation.

Nothing to stop Britain from continuing to export what
complies with the EU standards like they do now.

Again, as I understand it, neither the UK nor the EU currently has a
trade deal with the USA - this is what TTIP is all about, but hasn't yet
been agreed. But we *still* do a lot of trade with the US.

[As far as I can see, TTIP would be bad news for us anyway - so if we're
not in the EU at the time when it's finally agreed, so much the better!]

I don't think there's any chance the EU countries will agree to TTIP
as currently leaked.

And it is unlikely that once the govt changes in the US it will persist
with it anyway, regardless of whether Trump or Hitlary is President.

I would be much more concerned about our
government agreeing to it if we're outside the EU.

Its not going to happen now.

"Mark Allread" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:45 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 17 June 2016 14:07:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:33 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we
aren't allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

Correct. And that's been the situation since we joined the common
market in 1973.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ,
Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

The EU has no trade deal with the USA - that's what TTIP will be.

I can go into the Apple store in stratford 'city' and by a computer.

I'm not into cars but I'mm pretty sure I could buy a car made in the
USA.

You do understand what a trade agreement is don't you?

The EU has no trade deal with Australia or NZ - last year, there was an
announcement that discussion towards one would be starting in 2017.

So no boomerans until, no fosters lager :-@ then how will we survive.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-to-australia/
exporting-to-australia

Contact a UKTI Australia export adviser for a free consultation if
youre interested in exporting to Australia.

Great - have you considered what a trade agreement is and what it means?

why don't they say "No chance you ****wit if you live in the UK..
"Over 1,000 British businesses operate in Australia, including
well-known companies like BP, HSBC, Virgin, British Airways and BT, as
well as hundreds of small and medium sized companies. Australia is
ranked by the World Bank as the 10th easiest country in which to do
business. You can set up a new business in Australia within 2 days."

Hmm 2 of those listed are not UK owned of course so its arguable that
they are British businesses


Now you tell us why it takes 2+ YEARS for a trade deal with the EU

Because if we opt out then its not in their interests to have a trade
deal with us.


we have about 80 chineses research studetns about one a week get's
their PHD from us at this moment in time.

??? since when was a Chinese student a trade agreement??? They come here
because of the benefits of a UK university - but how long will such
benefits be around once the EU pulls its grants for research?

For as long as the chinese economy allows
their parents to pay for that education. And
they do **** all in the way of research there.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
charles wrote

the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man.
WE don't benefit from it at all.

Right. That explains why we were desperate to join

Britain wasn’t desperate to join, just wanted to do that.

- and no government of any colour since has wanted to take us out.

But plenty like Corbyn did.

So Turnip right - the vast majority of those directly involved, wrong.

It means that UK manufacturer goods or services don't attract
additional taxation when sold/proviided to the rest of the EU.
If you don't know that, then you shouldn't be discussing the subject.

It will have almost no impact when we leave.

It will have amajor impact on sales to thn EU

It will have a major impact on lots of things.

Bet it doesn’t. It will certainly have a major impact
on agriculture and immigration from the EU, but
I bet that is the only major effect it does have.

If there really were no trade benefits from being in the
EU, every single UK manufacturer would have said so.

Most don’t get involved in politics.

After all, why put up with EU regs etc if
nothing in it for them at the end of the day?

Some of them just prefer the lower risk of doing nothing
but are in fact still taking considerable risk with what will
happen to the eurozone if the EU can't work out how to
make it work.

whisky-dave wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
whisky-dave wrote

This means that we currently have no trade deal with
USA, NZ, Australia, China or India to name but a few.

So your saying if we vote out I wn;t be able to
order a New Mac or buy a T-shirt from china.

If we don't have a trade deal with china how can we buy their steel ?

Why do you think anyone would refuse to sell you anything?

if someone bullied you into not letting you sell stuff
such by putting in tarriffs on vital products like food.
That is what tarriffs are for isn't it ?

Nope, the current relatively low tariffs are just
about making the local suppliers of whatever
it is more competitive than those outside the EU.

It's getting others to buy your goods that is the difficult bit.

Apparently we have a company that makes good hovercraft (we
invented them didn;t we) countries outsite the EU want to buy then
but teh EU refuse to let us sell them unless we add 50K to the price.

That is a lie. Nothing like that happened.

Perhaps this is because Germany can;t compete.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

So you have money to buy the things you want.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
the whole 'EU free trade' issue is a total straw man. WE don't
benefit
from it at all.


I did NOT write that,

He didn’t say you did. Count the s, stupid.

Poor snipping by someone

Poor comprehension by you, actually.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
tim... wrote

there are hundreds of country pairs that happily trade with each other
without a separate deal in place. the idea that it is difficult is
nonsense

Can you name a pair of countries that trade happily with no formal trade
deal?

All of the EU/USA, EU/China, EU/India, USA/China, USA/India,
Australia/EU, New Zealand/EU, Australia/Britain, Australia/China
until very recently, Australia/USA until quite recently, etc etc etc.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/16 17:56, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:38:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It's also why we separate trade deals are utterly pointless while we're
in the EU - because if the UK applied zero duty to US goods in a
category, but Germany didn't, we could buy the same things through
Germany and not pay the duty.

I have read the above three times, and am still scratching my head.

Sorry. You're right. What I meant to say was that if the UK applied duty,
but Germany didn't.

Why on earth would we?
Brexit is all about getting out from a trade cartel that only allows free
trade between its members, and is incapable of doing a deal with anyone
else.

Since we trade more with NON EU poeple its to our davnage not to put up
barriers to trade with them.

We USED to have pretty much free trade with te commonwealth. The EU puts a
stop to that.

Yes.

Big mistake. The commonwealth is now a far far bigger market.

Not for what Britain still exports it isnt. They all get what they need
from China and Japan and the US now instead of from Britain.

There are a few exceptions like scotch and BBC and ITV
programs, but not very many of them left at all now.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/16 18:32, tim... wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Of course the UK would need to negotiate any trade deals, since
there are no deals in place currently between the UK and any other
nation. We could ask for any pre-existing EU deal to be the basis
of
it, assuming that's what we wanted to have, but until that was
negotiated and agreed, there would be nothing in place.

You know that and I know that and the Vote Leave campaign knows that
but sadly from the exchanges on here too many Brexit supporters do
not.

Indeed we do not, because it is not true!

You don't need a trade deal to trade.

Who - apart from Whisky Dave - ever thought you did?

You, when you said we needed to negotiate any trade deals.

We dont.

We certainly do.

Unless we're not going to have any trade deals at all.

We will use standard WTO rules until we can negotiate something better.

We will almost certainly, unilaterally remove import tariffs from stuff
that we "need" to import, such as food!


Cheap NZ butter and lamb, and the return of IXL tinned fruit.

IXL doesnt do tinned fruit anymore.

YAY!

Still does not stop individual companies from getting pally whth wheoever
they wish. BP and Russian ooilccompany for example.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:33 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

I just picked up a snippet of information showing that those who said
the UK is already negotiating its own trade deals is wrong as we aren't
allowed to do so whilst in the EU.

Correct. And that's been the situation since we joined the common market
in 1973.

This means that we currently have no trade deal with USA, NZ, Australia,
China or India to name but a few.

The EU has no trade deal with the USA - that's what TTIP will be.

The EU has no trade deal with Australia or NZ - last year, there was an
announcement that discussion towards one would be starting in 2017.

The EU has no trade deal with China - this year, there's been some
discussion about starting to think about one.

The EU has no trade deal with India - negotiations started in 2007, but
stalled when Modi came into government in 2014. There's some discussion
that they might restart.