http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

On 08/06/16 13:43, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

There is no such thing as an independent view of the referendum.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:44:20 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.


NT

On 08/06/16 13:50, wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:44:20 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.


NT

Well yes. It's just propaganda.

First of all comes the innocent sounding assumption. That this is a Very
Important Economic Decision.

It isn't. Its a very important ideological social and political
decision. Its economic impact is probably less than whether to buy a
smart phone or not.


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:44:20 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.

'It’s the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make. It affects
our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty.
Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through
our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.'


Love to know what you think is wrong with that.

And the article is as balanced a view as I've read anywhere.

--
*Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 08/06/2016 13:43, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

The summary in today's I was quite useful.

Mike

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 14:35:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:44:20 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.

'Its the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make.

I don;t believ it is as big as when I brought my flat or even my Mac.


It affects
our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty..

But I'm not the only one deciding one in a few million isn't very convincing if you want me to believe my vote has importance.

I know both sides are lying and niether will tell the truth unless it suites them, and then whether or not we stay or leave, things will still change depending on those situations and I doubt I'll be able to vote on them.




Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through
our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.'


Love to know what you think is wrong with that.

And the article is as balanced a view as I've read anywhere.

--
*Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
'It‘s the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make.

I don;t believ it is as big as when I brought my flat or even my Mac.

Which assumes the decision will have no effect and you'll continue to be
able to afford both. Suppose it caused your job to disappear?


It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security
and sovereignty.

But I'm not the only one deciding one in a few million isn't very
convincing if you want me to believe my vote has importance.

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

I know both sides are lying and niether will tell the truth unless it
suites them, and then whether or not we stay or leave, things will still
change depending on those situations and I doubt I'll be able to vote on
them.

--
*Young at heart -- slightly older in other places

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:49:18 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/06/16 13:43, dennis@home wrote:

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

There is no such thing as an independent view of the referendum.

Of course.


NT

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 14:35:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 13:44:20 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.

'Its the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make.

It's not a consumer decision, it's a decision that affects basic human liberties.


Love to know what you think is wrong with that.

And the article is as balanced a view as I've read anywhere.

Probably seems that way to those only thinking of whether it will change living costs by 5%. Talk about trivialising the issue.


NT

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't criticise
anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
'It€˜s the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make.

I don;t believ it is as big as when I brought my flat or even my Mac.

Which assumes the decision will have no effect and you'll continue to be
able to afford both. Suppose it caused your job to disappear?

Your point is?



It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security
and sovereignty.

But I'm not the only one deciding one in a few million isn't very
convincing if you want me to believe my vote has importance.

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.


I know both sides are lying and niether will tell the truth unless it
suites them, and then whether or not we stay or leave, things will still
change depending on those situations and I doubt I'll be able to vote on
them.

"Muddymike" wrote in message
o.uk...

On 08/06/2016 13:43, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

The summary in today's I was quite useful.

Spent ages trying to find how you were quite useful today, but have given
up.

On 08/06/16 18:47, Richard wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum


Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't
criticise anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

Nope. It all depenmds to what experiences one has been subjected and
whom one puts ones trust it, and that can be a very moveable feast.

Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Those who have managed to grow up and take responsibility for their
lives will vote leave. Its pretty much that simple.



--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

And whist we have joined and know what that brings (both good and
bad), don't know what leaving will mean as we haven't done so before.

Given no one has the facts (especially harry) very few can make what
could be the best decision for *everyone*, across all topics, with a
single Yes / No vote.

So, I'll just have to go along with whatever happens and just hope
that it's *is* the best for all of us, at least I won't be part of
making the wrong decision.

Cheers, T i m

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 08/06/16 13:43, dennis@home wrote:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

There is no such thing as an independent view of the referendum.

Bull****. That one is quite rational and independent.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
wrote
dennis@home wrote

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

a twonk that misses the point. Even his first sentence is wrong.

'It's the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make. It affects
our economy, foreign policy, immigration policy, security and sovereignty.
Our vote on whether the UK should leave the EU will reverberate through
our lifetimes, and those of our children and grandchildren.'

Love to know what you think is wrong with that.

The first sentence is just plain wrong. A much bigger consumer decision
any of us will ever make is whether to buy a house or rent forever.

That decision will have a much bigger effect on most people's
lives than how they vote in the referendum given that no one's
personal vote will make any difference at all to the question of
whether Britain leaves the EU or not.

And the article is as balanced a view as I've read anywhere.

True, and he says it more clearly than most manage too.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
whisky-dave wrote

'It's the biggest consumer decision any of us will ever make.

I don;t believ it is as big as when I brought my flat or even my Mac.

Which assumes the decision will have no effect

Nope, JUST that whatever effect it does have will be much
less than the decision whether to buy the flat or the Mac did.

He's right about that.

and you'll continue to be able to afford both.

Of course he will be able to regardless
of whether Britain leaves the EU or not.

Yes, there might be some effect on the British economy
but it wont see anymore much not being able to afford
the flat they own or the Mac in spades.

Suppose it caused your job to disappear?

It won't with almost all jobs. It might for some unskilled
ag workers but even with those it is much more likely that
stopping all those EU citizens prepared to do that sort of
work from coming to Britain will actually see more of those
jobs available for those who want to do that sort of work.

Its very unlikely that with Britain outside the EU that that will
have any effect on the number of rich chinese who choose to
pay for their kids to get an decent education in Britain.

It affects our economy, foreign policy, immigration
policy, security and sovereignty.

But I'm not the only one deciding one in a few million isn't very
convincing if you want me to believe my vote has importance.

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph
of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing'

Even sillier than you usually manage. Nothing evil
about leaving the EU to staying in the EU either.

I know both sides are lying and niether will tell the truth unless it
suites
them, and then whether or not we stay or leave, things will still change
depending on those situations and I doubt I'll be able to vote on them.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

Why bother to show up at all if that is what you believe ?

And whist we have joined and know what that brings (both good and
bad), don't know what leaving will mean as we haven't done so before.

But we do know that others have done fine outside the EU and
that Britain is much more economically significant than them
and did once do fine outside any block of european countrys.

Given no one has the facts (especially harry) very few
can make what could be the best decision for *everyone*,
across all topics, with a single Yes / No vote.

And no single vote will make any difference anyway.

So, I'll just have to go along with whatever happens
and just hope that it's *is* the best for all of us, at
least I won't be part of making the wrong decision.

So why bother to show up and spoil your paper ?

Complete waste of time even if you do a postal vote etc.

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 20:57:22 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

You actually think anyone will notice or care?
Apart from the counter who puts it in the pile with the other brain dead.
Just idleness.

"T i m" wrote in message ...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

And whist we have joined and know what that brings (both good and
bad), don't know what leaving will mean as we haven't done so before.

Given no one has the facts (especially harry) very few can make what
could be the best decision for *everyone*, across all topics, with a
single Yes / No vote.

So, I'll just have to go along with whatever happens and just hope
that it's *is* the best for all of us, at least I won't be part of
making the wrong decision.

Cheers, T i m

Your choice.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

On 08/06/16 18:47, Richard wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum


Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't
criticise anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

Nope. It all depenmds to what experiences one has been subjected and whom
one puts ones trust it, and that can be a very moveable feast.

Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Those who have managed to grow up and take responsibility for their lives
will vote leave. Its pretty much that simple.

Your point, in relation to my comment is?

You cannot have an independent view, neigher can you be sure you are right
as nobody knows how the future will pan out either way. end of story, this
is why so many people are undecided. You might as well toss a coin.
However you know more about staying in than going out so logically this
should be what you do at least for now.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

On 08/06/2016 20:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/06/16 18:47, Richard wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum



Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't
criticise anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

Nope. It all depenmds to what experiences one has been subjected and
whom one puts ones trust it, and that can be a very moveable feast.

Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Losers who hate "foreigners" and think that they will all disappear and
leave an idyllic little island will ignore everything else and vote leave.


Those who have managed to grow up and take responsibility for their
lives will vote leave.

Those who have grown up and can see the benefits in having diverse
peoples will look at the economic case and probably vote to stay.

Its pretty much that simple.

Yes it really is that simple.

On 09/06/16 08:54, Brian Gaff wrote:
You cannot have an independent view, neigher can you be sure you are right
as nobody knows how the future will pan out either way. end of story, this
is why so many people are undecided. You might as well toss a coin.
However you know more about staying in than going out so logically this
should be what you do at least for now.
Brian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBz6y6ZrmD8

--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On 09/06/16 09:26, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2016 20:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/06/16 18:47, Richard wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum




Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't
criticise anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

Nope. It all depenmds to what experiences one has been subjected and
whom one puts ones trust it, and that can be a very moveable feast.

Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Losers who hate "foreigners" and think that they will all disappear and
leave an idyllic little island will ignore everything else and vote leave.


What on earth are you talking about Denise? No one is like that in the
real world.


Those who have managed to grow up and take responsibility for their
lives will vote leave.

Those who have grown up and can see the benefits in having diverse
peoples will look at the economic case and probably vote to stay.

Oh dear, you have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker haven't you?

Why don't you ask an Amerindian or Australian aborigine what the
benefits of European Immigration were?


Its pretty much that simple.

Yes it really is that simple.




--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:40:29 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

Why bother to show up at all if that is what you believe ?

Because I wish to retain the right to vote, should anything come up
where I have knowledge (based on facts) or an opinion either way. If I
don't 'bother' it could be taken as laziness. If I turn up and spoil
my paper (explicitly) it still gets counted as 'an attendant', but
with a spoiled paper.

X votes out (I'll not affect).
Y votes in (I'll not affect).
Z% attendance (I'll affect).
$ spoiled papers (I'll affect).


And whist we have joined and know what that brings (both good and
bad), don't know what leaving will mean as we haven't done so before.

But we do know that others have done fine outside the EU and
that Britain is much more economically significant than them
and did once do fine outside any block of european countrys.

But what of all the counter arguments?

Given no one has the facts (especially harry) very few
can make what could be the best decision for *everyone*,
across all topics, with a single Yes / No vote.

And no single vote will make any difference anyway.

It *could* (albeit highly unlikely).

So, I'll just have to go along with whatever happens
and just hope that it's *is* the best for all of us, at
least I won't be part of making the wrong decision.

So why bother to show up and spoil your paper ?

See above.

Complete waste of time even if you do a postal vote etc.

Only if you don't understand *why*. Hopefully you do now. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 22:48:02 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 20:57:22 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

You actually think anyone will notice

Yes, as it will be counted as an attendance and as a spoiled paper.

or care?

The thing is harry, you can't comprehend anything outside black and
white and that's why you seem very happy to steal FIT tariffs off of
people who often can't afford it and were not given the choice. Unlike
you though I *do* have a moral compass and so even if no-one cares
(other than you of course) if I spoil my paper, I will know that at
least I 'bothered' to attend and make my mark.

Apart from the counter who puts it in the pile with the other brain dead.

What happens to the ballot paper is of no concern to me, nor the
opinion of anyone.

Imagine if others had the intellect to do that rather than just put
their cross on the paper randomly or based on some bogus hype they
read in the press or some nutter on the Internet.

Provide me the unquestionable facts FOR AND AGINST (not just one or
the other) and give me an iron clad guarantee that everything offered
*will* happen as advertised and I'll think again.

Just idleness.

No, 'idleness' would be not attending at all, not that you will be
able to compute that, you aren't wired that way. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:02:31 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message ...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:50:54 +0100, "Richard"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing'

What a load of ********. Unless of course you mean for someone to step up
and kill some evil-doer.

I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

And whist we have joined and know what that brings (both good and
bad), don't know what leaving will mean as we haven't done so before.

Given no one has the facts (especially harry) very few can make what
could be the best decision for *everyone*, across all topics, with a
single Yes / No vote.

So, I'll just have to go along with whatever happens and just hope
that it's *is* the best for all of us, at least I won't be part of
making the wrong decision.

Cheers, T i m

Your choice.

Quite (thanks) and it is supposed to be a democratic process (one I
would like to retain, however broken) and part of that and in this
country right now is 'not bothering to even turn up is a legal right.

But I'm not 'not bothering', I will bother to attend my local polling
station, offer up my card, take my paper, go into the booth and write
'SPOILED' across it, so that if anyone does read it they will realise
that it was spoiled intentionally, I didn't just make a mistake (by
putting a cross in both or neither etc).

So, do I have no opinion on any of it? No of course I do but my
uneducated 'opinion' shouldn't be used to potentially negatively
impact England, the UK, Europe or the world.

Uneducated because I'm not interested? No, uneducated because like the
vast majority I'm not in possession of the *FACTS* and if I was, I'm
not sure I'm fully aware of the 'bigger picture' to then put those
facts into perspective.

So, I could ask my local councilor (that I didn't vote in for the same
reasons (I spoiled my paper)) to propose a change in the voting system
where you are obliged to answer correctly 10 simple political
questions and if you don't get them right you aren't allowed to vote
because you wouldn't have shown sufficient 'sills' in the subject
matter. Exactly the same way they hand out driving licences or nearly
any other indication that you are 'worthy' of such status.

Unfortunately, what you would get then is those with a particular
political motive or agenda making the decision without the vast
majority making their random mark diluting or impacting (with no valid
justification) the outcome.

I'll vote out because I'm old and don't like foreigners or change.

I'll vote in because I'm young and might want to work or travel freely
in Europe and appreciate that we need more young people working here
to pay the pensions of the locals.

But that's democracy for you. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Brian Gaff wrote

You cannot have an independent view,

BULL****.

neigher can you be sure you are right as nobody knows how the future will
pan out either way.

That's what he said.

end of story,

Nope.

this is why so many people are undecided.

Nope.

You might as well toss a coin.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

However you know more about staying in than going out so logically this
should be what you do at least for now.

Even sillier than you usually manage.


"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum

On 09/06/2016 09:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Oh dear, you have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker haven't you?

Why don't you ask an Amerindian or Australian aborigine what the
benefits of European Immigration were?

Comments like that show you for what you are.

On 09/06/16 12:55, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/06/2016 09:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Oh dear, you have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker haven't you?

Why don't you ask an Amerindian or Australian aborigine what the
benefits of European Immigration were?

Comments like that show you for what you are.

Indeed they do. Someone who doesnt let bigotry and prejudice prevent
them from facing the facts.

Amerindian and Aboriginal culture was wiped out by mass European
immigration.

And any culture that is faced with such will suffer the same fate ifg it
lacks the means or the will to defend itself

You may feel that is how history works, and we shouldn't oppose it. That
is your prerogative. But don't pretend that if we let unlimited amounts
of people who have very little idea of what we would term normal civic
behaviour flood this country, the likes of you or I will remain as
comfortable as we are.

Its very easy to claim the moral high ground with virtue signalling
cultural diversity claptrap. But frankly, only you care about he moral
high ground. I am more concerned about the technological high ground,
where I can defend a way of life that actually ALLOWS us to even
CONTEMPLATE mass immigration.




--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
I'm probably going to do something, I'm probably going to spoil my
paper as no one so far has said *anything* that I believe, believe
will make any difference (the vote will actually effect) and more
importantly, has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt (pretty
difficult with all the lies, BS and FUD being bandied about) that
deciding one way or the other is *the* right decision.

What on earth is the point in going to the bother of voting if you're
going to 'spoil the paper'?

When I hear of spoilt papers I immediately imagine the voter is either
drunk or thick.

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Richard wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

On 08/06/16 18:47, Richard wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...-eu-referendum


Oddly enough, my independent view is to vote out.
I wouldn't try to tell anyone which way to vote, and I wouldn't
criticise anyone for whichever way they choose to vote.

Nope. It all depenmds to what experiences one has been subjected and
whom one puts ones trust it, and that can be a very moveable feast.

Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Those who have managed to grow up and take responsibility for their
lives will vote leave. Its pretty much that simple.

Right. Which means Turnip is voting in. Given he blames everyone else and
anything for his woes. Never himself.

Your point, in relation to my comment is?

It's Turnip.

--
*Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
You cannot have an independent view, neigher can you be sure you are
right as nobody knows how the future will pan out either way. end of
story, this is why so many people are undecided. You might as well toss
a coin.

You could also ask yourself how you'd hope things would turn out if we
leave, and see if you can find any evidence to support or deny those hopes.

In no particular order:-

1) Will immigration be reduced to a trickle if we leave?
2) Will existing EU immigrants be sent home within a reasonably short time?
3) Will other immigrants who've not been here for over x years be sent
home too?
4) If we intend to continue trading with the EU, will it be possible to
negotiate a better deal than we have at present?
5) Will the human rights of UK citizens be protected?
6) Will the working conditions of UK citizens be protected?
7) Who is going to do all those jobs currently staffed by 'immigrants'?



However you know more about staying in than going out so logically
this should be what you do at least for now.

That is so. The status quo is just that. What may happen in the future
mere speculation.

--
*Cleaned by Stevie Wonder, checked by David Blunkett*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Losers who hate "foreigners" and think that they will all disappear and
leave an idyllic little island will ignore everything else and vote
leave.

And then strive for the rights of all 'minorities' to be limited too.

Little Englanders have tiny minds filled with prejudice. Against
everything but themselves.

--
*To steal ideas from *one* person is plagiarism; from many, research*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/06/2016 13:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/06/16 12:55, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/06/2016 09:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Oh dear, you have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker haven't you?

Why don't you ask an Amerindian or Australian aborigine what the
benefits of European Immigration were?

Comments like that show you for what you are.

Indeed they do. Someone who doesnt let bigotry and prejudice prevent
them from facing the facts.

Amerindian and Aboriginal culture was wiped out by mass European
immigration.

They were wiped out by disease and murders not by mass immigration.
The immigrants were a tiny minority when they started killing.


And any culture that is faced with such will suffer the same fate ifg it
lacks the means or the will to defend itself

We have the means to defend ourselves but who do you want to kill first?
The Germans, the French, the Poles?
Maybe someone else here thinks you should go as they can trace their
heritage back ten years farther than you?


You may feel that is how history works, and we shouldn't oppose it. That
is your prerogative. But don't pretend that if we let unlimited amounts
of people who have very little idea of what we would term normal civic
behaviour flood this country, the likes of you or I will remain as
comfortable as we are.

Its very easy to claim the moral high ground with virtue signalling
cultural diversity claptrap. But frankly, only you care about he moral
high ground. I am more concerned about the technological high ground,
where I can defend a way of life that actually ALLOWS us to even
CONTEMPLATE mass immigration.

I don't see why we can't have both.
We have been managing it for a long time now.

On 09/06/16 15:58, dennis@home wrote:
I don't see why we can't have both.

The number of things you can't or won't see dennis, is manifold.

I've got a picture of you..


We have been managing it for a long time now.

and here it is

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20...itics/Okay.png

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 09/06/16 18:48, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Losers who want everything sorted out by people they want to trsut
will
'see them right' will vote 'remain'.

Losers who hate "foreigners" and think that they will all disappear and
leave an idyllic little island will ignore everything else and vote
leave.

And then strive for the rights of all 'minorities' to be limited too.

Little Englanders have tiny minds filled with prejudice. Against
everything but themselves.

As I've never met any "Little Englanders", whatever they may be, thanks
for letting me know.


I think I may have met one once when canvassing for UKIP.


He was voting BNP.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 09/06/16 18:51, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:

On 09/06/2016 13:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/06/16 12:55, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/06/2016 09:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Oh dear, you have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker haven't you?

Why don't you ask an Amerindian or Australian aborigine what the
benefits of European Immigration were?

Comments like that show you for what you are.

Indeed they do. Someone who doesnt let bigotry and prejudice prevent
them from facing the facts.

Amerindian and Aboriginal culture was wiped out by mass European
immigration.

They were wiped out by disease and murders not by mass immigration.
The immigrants were a tiny minority when they started killing.

And any culture that is faced with such will suffer the same fate if it
lacks the means or the will to defend itself

We have the means to defend ourselves but who do you want to kill first?
The Germans, the French, the Poles?

I don't think TNP has said he wants to kill anybody. Neither has anyone
else on this ng. Are you becoming a trouble-maker, Den - y'know,
stirring it up? Are you BNP or a communist or something?

All of the above probably. Definitely 'disturbed' anyway


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx