http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number
of meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I've been in intermittent talks with EDF about this for nearly three years.
I say, perhaps now we can have a talking meter or at least a talking
interfacce controller as you can now get from third parties for central
heating.
They say, all we can offer is wifi and large lcds.
I say, but even tvs can talk now, it is not rocket science.
They say, no call for it.
I say, have you asked blind people?
They say they will pass it down to the implementation team.
If this scenario is being repeated over and over about other potential
features etc, then its no wonder we are where we are now. Lots of waffle not
much do.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number
of meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Perhaps we could rewrite that Katie Meluar song about bicycles?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number
of meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

It was rewritten.

http://www.theguardian.com/education...ereducation.uk

Adam

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Perhaps we could rewrite that Katie Meluar song about bicycles?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number
of meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

And here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhxDDY1GYI


"ARW" wrote in message
...
It was rewritten.

http://www.theguardian.com/education...ereducation.uk

Adam

In article ,
Chris Hogg writes:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really

Neither can Germany. They said they won't be doing it.

expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

Tests have shown the effect lasts less than 3 months. Then it
backfires when people realise that boiling a kettle, running the
washing machine, etc costs vastly less than they would have guessed
beforehand, they stop worrying about energy use and consumption
goes up.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

Not really.

The only real use is for reverse auction for supply, something the
energy companies are not interested in at all.
e.g. I auction my 500W base load - bid for the supply of that, and
the cheapest bidder (or some other critera I choose) supplies it.
(As a base load, I pay for it regardless if I use it or not, but
get it at a cheaper rate than unpredictable loading.)
I want to run my 3kW immersion heater for 2 hours every night -
someone bid for that and they can choose the time it runs each night.
I want to run my washing machine sometime in next 48 hours -
someone else bids for that and specifies the time it runs.

None of the consumer side of smart metering is being rolled out
at all.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 26/03/16 08:10, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening.

It won't. I've studied my readings for a period to calculate what size
radiations I will need (looking at energy put out by electric heaters).

After that, I don't give a XXXX.

If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

Or if they are really tight on money and need to force-budget, there are
key meters.


The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.


Remember when the meter reader came quarterly?

There are other objectives here I think - such as being able to ramp
costs up and down in the day according to demand, as they will not be
able to generate enough in a few years.

On 26/03/2016 08:10, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.


Looks to me like a typical case of a British Politician modus operandi:

- Maths/science and facts are for geeks - I didn't do that as part of
PPE at Oxford, and ignoring it has never stopped me in the past

- I made a decision, and as bad as it may be, it would be better to
continue regardless of the evidence, as stopping it would make me look
bad and may prevent me from winning my seat at the next election

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 09:11:55 UTC, JoeJoe wrote:

Looks to me like a typical case of a British Politician modus operandi:

- Maths/science and facts are for geeks - I didn't do that as part of
PPE at Oxford, and ignoring it has never stopped me in the past

- I made a decision, and as bad as it may be, it would be better to
continue regardless of the evidence, as stopping it would make me look
bad and may prevent me from winning my seat at the next election

Or I made an idiotic decision and am sure it's a great one, voters will love me for saving the planet and the other 98% of you that don't want to go along I'll coerce into doing so. Just another useless jerk that thinks they know best.


NT

In article ,
JoeJoe wrote:
On 26/03/2016 08:10, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.


Looks to me like a typical case of a British Politician modus operandi:

- Maths/science and facts are for geeks - I didn't do that as part of
PPE at Oxford, and ignoring it has never stopped me in the past

- I made a decision, and as bad as it may be, it would be better to
continue regardless of the evidence, as stopping it would make me look
bad and may prevent me from winning my seat at the next election


an excellent summary - you should go into politics ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 26/03/2016 09:25, charles wrote:
In article ,
JoeJoe wrote:
On 26/03/2016 08:10, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.


Looks to me like a typical case of a British Politician modus operandi:

- Maths/science and facts are for geeks - I didn't do that as part of
PPE at Oxford, and ignoring it has never stopped me in the past

- I made a decision, and as bad as it may be, it would be better to
continue regardless of the evidence, as stopping it would make me look
bad and may prevent me from winning my seat at the next election


an excellent summary - you should go into politics ;-)


That's what my wife says quite often ;-)

My ready-made answer to her is that I lack the very basic requirement
though - the ability to look somebody straight in the eye and lie...

On 26/03/16 08:59, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg writes:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really

Neither can Germany. They said they won't be doing it.

expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

Tests have shown the effect lasts less than 3 months. Then it
backfires when people realise that boiling a kettle, running the
washing machine, etc costs vastly less than they would have guessed
beforehand, they stop worrying about energy use and consumption
goes up.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

Not really.

The only real use is for reverse auction for supply, something the
energy companies are not interested in at all.
e.g. I auction my 500W base load - bid for the supply of that, and
the cheapest bidder (or some other critera I choose) supplies it.
(As a base load, I pay for it regardless if I use it or not, but
get it at a cheaper rate than unpredictable loading.)
I want to run my 3kW immersion heater for 2 hours every night -
someone bid for that and they can choose the time it runs each night.
I want to run my washing machine sometime in next 48 hours -
someone else bids for that and specifies the time it runs.

None of the consumer side of smart metering is being rolled out
at all.


I wonder how many of our heading-towards-3rd-world-standards roads 11
billion would fix

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

The other obvious useful feature is that you can charge a different
rate for electricity used when there is surplus electricity available,
to encourage people to do the high load stuff like drying clothes
when there wont be any need to use the high cost power generators
at peak demand times etc.

On 26/03/16 02:58, Dave Liquorice wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).


The odd few will get electrocuted ...

--
Adrian C

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/16 02:58, Dave Liquorice wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).


The odd few will get electrocuted ...

Doesn’t matter, you already have a surplus of very odd people indeed.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Perhaps we could rewrite that Katie Meluar song about bicycles?

if you need it re-written the guilty party is Mike Batt (of Wombles "fame")

tim

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...


The only real use is for reverse auction for supply, something the
energy companies are not interested in at all.
e.g. I auction my 500W base load - bid for the supply of that, and
the cheapest bidder (or some other critera I choose) supplies it.
(As a base load, I pay for it regardless if I use it or not, but
get it at a cheaper rate than unpredictable loading.)
I want to run my 3kW immersion heater for 2 hours every night -
someone bid for that and they can choose the time it runs each night.
I want to run my washing machine sometime in next 48 hours -
someone else bids for that and specifies the time it runs.

None of the consumer side of smart metering is being rolled out
at all.

but that's because it requires smart appliances - which no-one makes,
because no-one can use...

Which is the classic chicken and egg problem for which someone has to broker
a solution (or not).

tim

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...


None of the consumer side of smart metering is being rolled out
at all.


I wonder how many of our heading-towards-3rd-world-standards roads 11
billion would fix

As the consumer has show a complete aversion to road "tolling" there would
be no way of collecting this extra 11 billion to fix the roads.

I can't see the leccy companies stumping it up via fuel bills (which is how
it is going to be collected for this initiative)


tim

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...



Or if they are really tight on money and need to force-budget, there are
key meters.

being on a key meter is the last way to solve a "tight budget" problem

tim

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

The other obvious useful feature is that you can charge a different
rate for electricity used when there is surplus electricity available,
to encourage people to do the high load stuff like drying clothes
when there wont be any need to use the high cost power generators
at peak demand times etc.

We already have meters that do that

They are "dumb" in the sense that the period of time that charges a lower
rate is fixed, but realistically that is how it has to be if you are going
to encourage culture shift, and there is no reason why they can't be
adjusted to have more than one "fixed" period/rate

Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint gonna
work

tim

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 11:28:43 UTC, tim... wrote:

Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint gonna
work

There will always be a few that care, but 99% of the population just isn't going to take much notice of price shifts through the day. If the price doubles at dinner time guess what... you still need to eat dinner.


NT

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice scribbled


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."



Those figures are incorrect. There are 26 million homes,

homes AND small businesses

tim

On 26/03/16 11:28, tim... wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

The other obvious useful feature is that you can charge a different
rate for electricity used when there is surplus electricity available,
to encourage people to do the high load stuff like drying clothes
when there wont be any need to use the high cost power generators
at peak demand times etc.

We already have meters that do that

They are "dumb" in the sense that the period of time that charges a
lower rate is fixed, but realistically that is how it has to be if you
are going to encourage culture shift, and there is no reason why they
can't be adjusted to have more than one "fixed" period/rate

Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work


What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

The problem of course is how much consumption is 'dispatchable' in the
sense that it can be time shifted without affecting economic activity.

I can see the underground stopping for half an hour while we wait for
the tide to come in etc.

Not.
tim





--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 11:58:48 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

The problem of course is how much consumption is 'dispatchable' in the
sense that it can be time shifted without affecting economic activity.

I'd say that's the best option. Freezers, hot water and to a limited extent space heating & fridges can shift their target slightly according to price.. And kettles perhaps. Washing machines & dishwashers can sometimes run when cheapest. But most load can't be moved around. Whether those will chase price depends on whether the feature is worth its cost - when it's just software it probably will be.


NT

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/16 11:28, tim... wrote:


Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work


What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

But we need the smart appliances

and they currently don't exist

and even when they do, they aren't likely to bought by consumers just for
the spurious benefits of time shifting power use. They have to have some
more compelling reason

Hence all the techno numpty babble about fridges that can tell you what
recopies you can make and what things need to go on your shopping list.

Like that's going to cut it - Not!

(and in the mix with the above is the appliance manufactures, seeing what
has happened in mobile devices, thinking that "smarts" will allow them to
charge more and for consumers to "upgrade" more frequently - they are in for
a nasty surprise there IMHO)

tim

On 26/03/16 12:54, tim... wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/16 11:28, tim... wrote:


Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work


What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to
the price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have
very smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of
wind hits scotland.

But we need the smart appliances

and they currently don't exist

and even when they do, they aren't likely to bought by consumers just
for the spurious benefits of time shifting power use. They have to have
some more compelling reason

well if the electricity is charged on a cots plus basis according to te
spot price of the moment, you could then, with a smart appliance,
monitor that and adjust consumption accordingly. I mean if the spot
price jumps to £200/MWh at a given point its a good idea not to boil
that kettle or heat the water tank.

Technically its do-able. Its probably cheaper though to build ten
nuclear power stations and pay all the renewable energy operators to
shut down and go away forever



--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

tim... wrote:

Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint gonna
work

It needs intelligent white goods etc. that would be able to be
activated by the smart meter. ... but then what's the point of the
smart meter, just get a message from the generating system to say "we
have some spare capacity".

Smart meters are pointless. :-)

--
Chris Green
·

tim... wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/16 11:28, tim... wrote:


Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work


What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

But we need the smart appliances

.... but the smart meter is pointless in this case. The information
that "electricity is cheap now" is coming from the electricity
supplier. It can go direct to the appliance. We have this clever
thing called the internet for doing such things.

--
Chris Green
·

tim... wrote:

but that's because it requires smart appliances - which no-one makes,
because no-one can use...

Which is the classic chicken and egg problem for which someone has to broker
a solution (or not).

Has anyone even agreed the tariff regime which might be
implemented to take advantage of this potential mechanism?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Tests have shown the effect lasts less than 3 months. Then it
backfires when people realise that boiling a kettle, running the
washing machine, etc costs vastly less than they would have guessed
beforehand, they stop worrying about energy use and consumption
goes up.

How many boil a kettle just for the fun of it? Do a washing load because
they're bored and it didn't need doing?

If you had electric heating an the meter told you that lowering the
temperature would save you money, some might take notice. But do they
really need to be told that leaving things on when not needed wastes money?

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/03/16 15:01, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 13:49:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Technically its do-able. Its probably cheaper though to build ten
nuclear power stations and pay all the renewable energy operators to
shut down and go away forever

Pay them? Nah! Just remove their subsidy; they'd soon disappear!

Their lawyers would not.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

In article ,
Chris J Dixon writes:
tim... wrote:

but that's because it requires smart appliances - which no-one makes,
because no-one can use...

Which is the classic chicken and egg problem for which someone has to broker
a solution (or not).

Has anyone even agreed the tariff regime which might be
implemented to take advantage of this potential mechanism?

There was a program on Radio 4 around lunchtime on this.
Suppliers said they'll offer variable charging tarrifs when there
are more people on smart meters. Austrialia has been offering them
for 5 years and there's only a 1% uptake. I think they said 39% of
those who switched to them found themselves worse off.

Also, tarrifs changing through the day will only apply to
electricity. There is no variation in gas prices through the day,
as the pressurised supply pipework stores several days worth of
gas.

The other thing the program mentioned is that there's still no
agreement between suppliers on smart meter technology to be used,
so at the moment, you need to assume your smart meter will become
a dumb meter if you switch supplier.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"tim..." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 02:58:29 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

analysis snipped

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

I can't see the benefit for most people. Is the government really
expecting people to be looking at their meters every few hours to see
what electricity they're using, and thereby cutting back? I can't see
it happening. If people aren't aware of what kit uses how much
electricity, they're unlikely to be interested in the usage at any one
moment, or what is using it. If people are sufficiently interested,
they either know what uses large amounts, or they can go out and buy a
monitor that tells them.

The only useful smart meter would be one that can be interrogated
remotely from some central computer, so that it's not necessary to
employ someone to come and read it every six months.

The other obvious useful feature is that you can charge a different
rate for electricity used when there is surplus electricity available,
to encourage people to do the high load stuff like drying clothes
when there wont be any need to use the high cost power generators
at peak demand times etc.

We already have meters that do that

I meant do it better than those do.

They are "dumb" in the sense that the period of time that charges a lower
rate is fixed,

And is just a very crude once a day block of time with
the devices that use that cheaper power not being normal
appliances like say clothes driers which can be used at
cheap or more expensive electricity rates depending
on when the user chooses to use the appliance.

but realistically that is how it has to be if you are going to encourage
culture shift,

Yes, but currently you can't run the clothes drier etc
at the cheap rate because the cheap rate use is
determined by the electricity supply authority
choosing to turn the use of the electricity on
or off for water heating and other stuff like
heatbanks and under floor heating etc.

and there is no reason why they can't be adjusted to have more than one
"fixed" period/rate

Yes, but that is only half the problem. The other half
of the problem is that the meter needs to be able to
charge for ALL the power used at the cheaper rate
when the consumer chooses to use the appliance
during that time band.

Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work

Sure, but no one was suggesting anything like that.

What a smart meter can do and the meter it replaces
doesn't do is charge ALL the power used in a particular
time band at a particular rate. The systems that already
have smart meters doing it like that normally have 3
price bands, peak rate, intermediate rate and cheapest
rate and all the power used is charged at the appropriate
rate depending on the time of day the power is used.

wrote
tim... wrote

Telling people that at some random part of the day
their electricity is going to be cheaper and that they
should "look out for it", just aint gonna work

There will always be a few that care, but 99% of the population just
isn't going to take much notice of price shifts through the day. If the
price doubles at dinner time guess what... you still need to eat dinner.

But it will work fine with clothes drying, dishwashing etc
where its fine to do it at the cheapest rate in the middle
of the night. Same with water heating and heatbanks
and would allow charging at the higher cost when you
run out of hot water etc without needing to duplicate
the heating elements as you do currently.

That's how the systems that already have smart meters do it.

Whether that warrants the substantial cost
of the smart meter is a quite different question.

"tim..." wrote in message
...

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice scribbled


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."



Those figures are incorrect. There are 26 million homes,

homes AND small businesses

It's unlikely that there are just as many small businesses as homes.

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 26 March 2016 11:58:48 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

The problem of course is how much consumption is 'dispatchable' in the
sense that it can be time shifted without affecting economic activity.

I'd say that's the best option.

IMO it's better to allow the consumer to choose when to run the
appliances based on when it's viable to use the cheaper power.

Sure, most consumers won't bother, but its not feasible to have
the system turn things off and on when it decides to do that.

Freezers, hot water and to a limited extent space heating
& fridges can shift their target slightly according to price.

Not just slightly with stuff like clothes driers and dishwashers
and to a lesser extent clothes washing because many do more
than one load sequentially with clothes washing and that isnt
going to be very convenient done when you are sleeping.

And kettles perhaps. Washing machines & dishwashers
can sometimes run when cheapest.

Can usually with dishwashers and clothes driers.

But most load can't be moved around.

What matters is the higher power loads and most
of those can be. The main exception is cooking
and to a lesser extent stuff like fan heaters and
radiators.

Whether those will chase price depends on whether the feature
is worth its cost - when it's just software it probably will be.

The problem isnt the cost of the smart meter it's the cost of
installing it.

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 02:58:33 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020
Today: 26 Mar 2016
Days reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000
Meters/day: 30443
Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers
does 6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years.
With no holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number
of meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by
2020 as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it
too expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I don't think there are 53 million households in the UK.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 11:22:41 -0700, harry wrote:

On Saturday, 26 March 2016 02:58:33 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35894922

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

Hum, 53 million by end 2020.

Finished by: 31 Dec 2020 Today: 26 Mar 2016 Days
reamining: 1741
Meters: 53000000 Meters/day: 30443 Meters/man/day: 6
Installers: 5074

5075 installers where are they going to come from? And the above
calculation assumes that every single ones one of those installers does
6 installs/day everyday from now to 31 Dec 202, 4 3/4 years. With no
holidays, no sick, no days off (aka weekends...).

Another target they ain't going to meet. Even if you half the number of
meters to 25 million (about the actual number of households in the
country) they still aren't going to make it.

"The EU has said that all its members must provide smart meters by 2020
as long as there is a positive economic case to do so."

Economic case for whom, energy companies or consumers?

Germany said no on ecomonic grounds, Austraila and Canada found it too
expensive and of little benefit.

--
Cheers Dave.

I don't think there are 53 million households in the UK.

Read it again.

"The British government has committed to getting 53 million smart
meters into our homes and small businesses by the end of 2020, at an
estimated cost of £11bn."

wrote in message ...
tim... wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/16 11:28, tim... wrote:


Telling people that at some random part of the day their electricity
is
going to be cheaper and that they should "look out for it", just aint
gonna work


What is both possible and practical is to key the mains frequency to
the
price, or have some online access to live markets, and then have very
smart appliances that gobble up e,g. freezer power when a gust of wind
hits scotland.

But we need the smart appliances

... but the smart meter is pointless in this case. The information
that "electricity is cheap now" is coming from the electricity
supplier. It can go direct to the appliance. We have this clever
thing called the internet for doing such things.

The smart meter is still needed to record the fact that
the power was used when the electricity was cheap.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 21:07:29 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


The other obvious useful feature is that you can charge a different
rate for electricity used when there is surplus electricity available,
to encourage people to do the high load stuff like drying clothes
when there wont be any need to use the high cost power generators
at peak demand times etc.

There's an idea - only put the clothes driers on when the wind is just
the right speed to turn the windmills...