Replaced the taps and 'push lever' waste on a bathroom sink with new
monobloc tap and clicky waste yesterday, but can't get the lower seal on
the waste to, um, seal. The upper seal (to the basin) is fine.

It's one of those combined waste and overflow things with a couple of
notches cut out in the waste body for the overflow. Everything is fine
until I allow water into the overflow, at which point the lower seal
leaks. The actual seal to the bottom of the basin seems to be good, it
seems to be water escaping through the threads of the waste.

What am I missing here? Surely it should be possible to get a good seal
without having to bodge it with silicone?

Thanks for any tips.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Tuesday, 23 February 2016 08:49:44 UTC, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Replaced the taps and 'push lever' waste on a bathroom sink with new
monobloc tap and clicky waste yesterday, but can't get the lower seal on
the waste to, um, seal. The upper seal (to the basin) is fine.

It's one of those combined waste and overflow things with a couple of
notches cut out in the waste body for the overflow. Everything is fine
until I allow water into the overflow, at which point the lower seal
leaks. The actual seal to the bottom of the basin seems to be good, it
seems to be water escaping through the threads of the waste.

What am I missing here? Surely it should be possible to get a good seal
without having to bodge it with silicone?

Thanks for any tips.

You're missing silicone, plumber's mait etc.


NT

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:49:47 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


Replaced the taps and 'push lever' waste on a bathroom sink with new
monobloc tap and clicky waste yesterday, but can't get the lower seal on
the waste to, um, seal. The upper seal (to the basin) is fine.

It's one of those combined waste and overflow things with a couple of
notches cut out in the waste body for the overflow. Everything is fine
until I allow water into the overflow, at which point the lower seal
leaks. The actual seal to the bottom of the basin seems to be good, it
seems to be water escaping through the threads of the waste.

What am I missing here? Surely it should be possible to get a good seal
without having to bodge it with silicone?

How though? There are no mating / natural sealable surfaces under the
overflow part and those threads are a fairly loose fit.

There are many instances where you have to seal threads be it with
fluids or gasses.

Thanks for any tips.

Any suitable sealant. There is no pressure and hopefully won't be
used.

Cheers, T i m

Any suitable sealant. There is no pressure and hopefully won't be
used.

Cheers, T i m



The overflow chamber gets wetted when the plug is removed as well - water
can flow either way through the slots.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:17:49 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:


Any suitable sealant. There is no pressure and hopefully won't be
used.


The overflow chamber gets wetted when the plug is removed as well - water
can flow either way through the slots.

Ah, of course. The required solution for the desired outcome will be
the same though. ;-)

I've been there when a guy re-doing my Mums bathroom struggled for
some time with this very issue. I took it all the bits, worked out
what had to be done (some sealant applied to the thread on the final
nut) and left him to get on with the job. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 23/02/2016 09:02, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:49:47 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


Replaced the taps and 'push lever' waste on a bathroom sink with new
monobloc tap and clicky waste yesterday, but can't get the lower seal on
the waste to, um, seal. The upper seal (to the basin) is fine.

It's one of those combined waste and overflow things with a couple of
notches cut out in the waste body for the overflow. Everything is fine
until I allow water into the overflow, at which point the lower seal
leaks. The actual seal to the bottom of the basin seems to be good, it
seems to be water escaping through the threads of the waste.

What am I missing here? Surely it should be possible to get a good seal
without having to bodge it with silicone?

How though? There are no mating / natural sealable surfaces under the
overflow part and those threads are a fairly loose fit.

There are many instances where you have to seal threads be it with
fluids or gasses.

Thanks for any tips.

Any suitable sealant. There is no pressure and hopefully won't be
used.

Cheers, T i m


If there's a washer of any sort involved, I'd replace that from my pack
of Aldi 500 assorted washers (reducing it to 499). Seriously, the washer
in waste compression joints often looks ok but isn't.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:30:20 +0000, Stuart Noble
wrote:

snip

If there's a washer of any sort involved, I'd replace that from my pack
of Aldi 500 assorted washers (reducing it to 499).

Hehe.

Seriously, the washer
in waste compression joints often looks ok but isn't.

I've also had it where it looks f'd but had to use it and it's worked
fine, but then I guess there are important places and less important
places.

Like, if you have a conventional waste (like on a shower) you only
need to get a good seal around the back on the flange, or the waste
fittings that fasten with a screw from above (so no thread to leak
underneath). However, as soon as you have something like an overflow
(that uses the same final outlet / fitting as an assembly) you don't
need a seal under the flange at all (although you would to stop stuff
getting under there) as it's not actually stopping any water getting
past.

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 23 February 2016 08:49:44 UTC, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
The actual seal to the bottom of the basin seems to be good, it
seems to be water escaping through the threads of the waste.


I have also had that issue a couple of times. A dozen turns of PTFE tape around the thread fixed it for me.

Mike

Thanks for the replies. After asking in the local plumbing supplies
store a bit of goggling, this sorted it - no silicone, no plumber's
mate, no PTFE tape needed. I've seen it described as a "basin mate" and
a "bowl sealer".

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231601813077

It's a rubber wotsit with internal ribs/threads and a conical shape.
You push it onto the bottom of the waste and the conical bit forms the
seal with the bottom hole in the basin. Tightening the securing nut
compresses it, sealing the threads. As a bonus, it centres the plughole
in the top of the basin.

2 quid from BnQ (plumber's store had no stock) and worked a treat.

I've always felt it should be possible to get a good seal without
bodging with silicone or plumber's mate, especially if the surfaces are
clean. A bit of washing up liquid for lubricant, that's all.

This guy uses one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPsf2xTZfc

but also uses silicone, which is cheating IMO

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

I've always felt it should be possible to get a good seal without
bodging with silicone or plumber's mate, especially if the surfaces are
clean. A bit of washing up liquid for lubricant, that's all.

This guy uses one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPsf2xTZfc

but also uses silicone, which is cheating IMO

I agree with your thinking - but in this case the thread itself is the
leakage route.

En el artículo 2,
DerbyBorn escribió:

I agree with your thinking - but in this case the thread itself is the
leakage route.

Yes, I realised that, hence my question.

The "basin mate" rubber bung compresses and seals the threads without
the need for any sealant, plumber's mate or PTFE.

A much more elegant solution, IMO. And it saves me buying a tube of
sealant, of which I'll use a tiny amount for this job and waste the rest
as by the time I come to use it for another job, it'll have solidified
in the tube.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:18:35 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:



I've always felt it should be possible to get a good seal without
bodging with silicone or plumber's mate, especially if the surfaces are
clean. A bit of washing up liquid for lubricant, that's all.

This guy uses one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPsf2xTZfc

but also uses silicone, which is cheating IMO

I agree with your thinking - but in this case the thread itself is the
leakage route.

And I can't see how any 'rubber' (that isn't liquid) will ever fully
seal what is a fairly sharp metal thread, without some additional
sealant?

The only exception would be if the rubber had it's own internal thread
that coincided with the thread on the waste fitting but even then it
would never fully 'sync' (excuse the pun), depending on how much you
compressed the rubber.

It is my prediction that it will still leak, it might just take a bit
of time till it does but then may block itself with gunge as time goes
on.

At least if you applied sealant to the inside of the rubber bush to
seal against the threads you could still easily remove the nut at a
later date.

Cheers, T i m

En el artículo , T i m
escribió:

And I can't see how any 'rubber' (that isn't liquid) will ever fully
seal what is a fairly sharp metal thread, without some additional
sealant?

You wouldn't, would you.

The only exception would be if the rubber had it's own internal thread
that coincided with the thread on the waste fitting

It does.

but even then it
would never fully 'sync' (excuse the pun), depending on how much you
compressed the rubber.

********.

It is my prediction that it will still leak

Left all day with basin full of water. Not a drop.

Read the reviews here.

http://www.diy.com/departments/plumb...-basin-sealer-
dia32mm-set-of-1/178380_BQ.prd#

"Excellent product for under £2. Avoids need to use messy sealants."

"Got a perfect seal without the need for Plumbers Mait"

"Did exactly what was required - no leaks, brilliant"

"After three attempts at trying to stop the water seeping down the
threads of the trap I opted for this. Instant success and it didn't need
anything else added except a bit of soap to lubricate the thread as it's
a tight fit"

etc. etc.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:58:41 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , T i m
escribió:

And I can't see how any 'rubber' (that isn't liquid) will ever fully
seal what is a fairly sharp metal thread, without some additional
sealant?

You wouldn't, would you.

The only exception would be if the rubber had it's own internal thread
that coincided with the thread on the waste fitting

It does.

So how 'rubbery' is the rubber? How much have you compressed it whilst
tightening the fitting?

but even then it
would never fully 'sync' (excuse the pun), depending on how much you
compressed the rubber.

********.

Fact. The fact you can't work it out doesn't make it any less so. If
the rubber had a thread that matched the waste outlet at rest, then
you compressed it 50% of it's original size, what pitch would the
thread be then.

A) 'The same'
B) 'Different'.

It is my prediction that it will still leak

Left all day with basin full of water. Not a drop.

With the plug open?

Remove the trap, blank the end of the waste outlet off, open the plug,
fill the sink with water to the brim and leave *that* for a day and
get back to us. I'm not saying it *will* leak (you can get lucky with
these things), I'm just saying that will be an actual test.


Read the reviews here.

http://www.diy.com/departments/plumb...-basin-sealer-
dia32mm-set-of-1/178380_BQ.prd#

"Excellent product for under £2. Avoids need to use messy sealants."

"Got a perfect seal without the need for Plumbers Mait"

"Did exactly what was required - no leaks, brilliant"

"After three attempts at trying to stop the water seeping down the
threads of the trap I opted for this. Instant success and it didn't need
anything else added except a bit of soap to lubricate the thread as it's
a tight fit"

etc. etc.

I wonder how we ever coped?

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:18:35 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:



I've always felt it should be possible to get a good seal without
bodging with silicone or plumber's mate, especially if the surfaces are
clean. A bit of washing up liquid for lubricant, that's all.

This guy uses one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPsf2xTZfc

but also uses silicone, which is cheating IMO

I agree with your thinking - but in this case the thread itself is the
leakage route.

And I can't see how any 'rubber' (that isn't liquid) will ever fully seal
what is a fairly sharp metal thread, without some additional sealant?

Easy, it just gets compressed into the thread as you tighten the nut etc.

The sharpness is irrelevant if it isnt rotating against the
sharpness as you tighten the nut and that is easy to achieve.

The only exception would be if the rubber had it's own internal
thread that coincided with the thread on the waste fitting

And that is what it has,

but even then it would never fully 'sync' (excuse the pun),
depending on how much you compressed the rubber.

That's not right. It's the compressing of the rubber that does that.

It is my prediction that it will still leak,

Bet it doesn't.

it might just take a bit of time till it does

Why should it take time to do that ?

but then may block itself with gunge as time goes on.

Bet it doesn't leak at all. I never sealed any of mine with
anything and none of them have ever leaked in 40+ years.

At least if you applied sealant to the inside of the rubber bush to
seal against the threads you could still easily remove the nut at a
later date.

And if you don't use any sealant, it will undo fine at a later date.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 06:20:53 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:
snip

And I can't see how any 'rubber' (that isn't liquid) will ever fully seal
what is a fairly sharp metal thread, without some additional sealant?

Easy, it just gets compressed into the thread as you tighten the nut etc.

No, it's obvious you aren't an engineer or comprehend my point (as you
will contradict yourself shortly).


The sharpness is irrelevant if it isnt rotating against the
sharpness as you tighten the nut and that is easy to achieve.

Have you ever actually seen the thread on a metal waste fitting?

The sharpness (and deepness) of the thread is completely relevant
because you might be trying to 'push' rubber over the thread profile
to obtain a seal. eg, for the purpose of a good / easy seal, plain
pipe would be the easiest option, then a gently undulating finish and
lastly (and the most difficult to seal) a deep, sharp, thread.

The only exception would be if the rubber had it's own internal
thread that coincided with the thread on the waste fitting

And that is what it has,

So I understand ... and whilst that would work if the exact same pitch
as the metal fitting, may be an issue if the rubber threads aren't
tessellated fully with the metal ones. A 'spiral' is always more
difficult to seal than just rings or smooth.

but even then it would never fully 'sync' (excuse the pun),
depending on how much you compressed the rubber.

That's not right. It's the compressing of the rubber that does that.

Ok, let's say you have a 1 turn per mm thread on the steel and a one
turn per mm thread on the rubber. Now compress the rubber by 50%, what
is the pitch on the thread on the rubber now?

It is my prediction that it will still leak,

Bet it doesn't.

Time will tell. ;-)

it might just take a bit of time till it does

Why should it take time to do that ?

Because unless Mike actually tests the seal properly (by applying a
'worst case' positive head of water where the waste is blocked) the
chances are the time it takes to empty the basin into a free flowing
outlet won't 'test' the seal very much.

but then may block itself with gunge as time goes on.

Bet it doesn't leak at all.

Time will tell.

I never sealed any of mine with
anything and none of them have ever leaked in 40+ years.

Like I said, assuming you don't initially expose the seal to a proper
pressure test, over time any potentially unnoticed seepage will slowly
block itself in any case.

At least if you applied sealant to the inside of the rubber bush to
seal against the threads you could still easily remove the nut at a
later date.

And if you don't use any sealant, it will undo fine at a later date.

I have used sealant and never had any issues stripping any fitting
sealed with a non-hardening sealant (even Loctite). [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Including safely removing two taps that had been 'set' in putty
and the plumber said he would probably break the basin if *he* tried
to get them out.

On 23/02/16 12:18, DerbyBorn wrote:

I've always felt it should be possible to get a good seal without
bodging with silicone or plumber's mate, especially if the surfaces are
clean. A bit of washing up liquid for lubricant, that's all.

This guy uses one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaPsf2xTZfc

but also uses silicone, which is cheating IMO

I agree with your thinking - but in this case the thread itself is the
leakage route.


I put a load of Plumbers Mait or Boss White (one of the plumber's
puttys) on mine.

Another site clearly showing how ot use the Basin Mate:

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/ho...-waste-fitting

this is how I installed it (before finding this site.)

Hope this helps someone else struggling with the same problem. It seems
to be quite common.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:03:12 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


Another site clearly showing how ot use the Basin Mate:

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/ho...-waste-fitting

this is how I installed it (before finding this site.)

Hope this helps someone else struggling with the same problem. It seems
to be quite common.

Amongst people who don't understand how it all works though I'm
guessing (I'm not suggesting you fall into that category, you just
preferred not to use any sealant). Like the guy who told me he 'had
spent 3 hours trying to stop my mums new basin waste leaking' and I
managed it first go in 10 mins because I *understood* what was
required. He hadn't understood that the washer above the nut didn't
seal the nut.

From your link above:

"The manufacturers instructions for fitting this waste was to seal
around the pop up waste using silicone and then place it into position
and then fit the sealing washer to the bottom and then the large
plastic nut.

I did exactly as the instructions said and the waste leaked and so I
removed it and tried again using even more silicone and it leaked
again, then the retaining nut broke and so off I went to my local DIY
store and I found a much better solution for fitting the waste."

It leaked because they weren't sealing the right thing.

You *don't* need to seal the waste fitting where it goes into the
basin, other than to stop the water leaking out of the basin, past the
plug when it's in place.

You don't (normally) need to seal any other rings (like a non
integrated overflow connection), as long as you use appropriate
(suitably soft and not split) washers on both sides.

You do normally need some sort of sealant between the lower nut but
*only* on the thread.

So, if you assembled the entire fitting, ran a small bead of sealant
around the thread against the lower washer and then did the nut up
(even by hand), the chances are all would be fine (and you wouldn't
'have sealant everywhere' or the nut stuck on.

I and millions of plumbers have done it this way for many many years.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. If you already have the sealant out, many people would run a
smear round each of the mating surfaces 'just in case'.