Hello,
I know this question has been addressed a few years ago, but wanted to
check on the current regulations.

I have a downstairs toilet whose waste goes directly into a soil pipe
running down into the concrete floor. I would like to replace the
toilet and add a basin, but there is no easy plumbing route for the
basin waste.

Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

Also, is it desirable to do this, or is it the kind of thing that gets
surveyors twitchy when I eventually come to sell the house?

Thanks,
Richard

Richard Hamer wrote:
Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

Pan connector with boss, such as part# 12718 from www.bes.ltd.uk
The larger B&Q outlets stock these.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

On 19 Jul 2004 16:11:18 -0700, Richard Hamer wrote:

Hello,
I know this question has been addressed a few years ago, but wanted to
check on the current regulations.

I have a downstairs toilet whose waste goes directly into a soil pipe
running down into the concrete floor. I would like to replace the
toilet and add a basin, but there is no easy plumbing route for the
basin waste.

Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

McAlpine's do a wide range of pan connectors. Pop into a builder's
merchant and ask for a leaflet, or google for their address and give 'em
a bell. At least you'll be able to see which one you're looking for.

Personally, I'd avoid any flexible or 'concertina' type connectors if
you can. I don't like the idea of those corrugations trapping waste.

I think I saw in one website that these are for "vented" waste pipes,
though I'm not sure about this.

Can I just connect the sink waste directly to this, or are there
special parts needed such as anti-siphon traps, or any other special
requirements? This sounds all too good to be true ...!

"Toby" wrote in message ...
Pan connector with boss, such as part# 12718 from www.bes.ltd.uk
The larger B&Q outlets stock these.

"Richard Hamer" wrote in message
om...
Hello,
I know this question has been addressed a few years ago, but wanted to
check on the current regulations.

I have a downstairs toilet whose waste goes directly into a soil pipe
running down into the concrete floor. I would like to replace the
toilet and add a basin, but there is no easy plumbing route for the
basin waste.

Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

Also, is it desirable to do this, or is it the kind of thing that gets
surveyors twitchy when I eventually come to sell the house?

WC Connectors are availablre with braches for smaller waste pipes. The
basin "must" have a HepVO trap, then no problems.

http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk

(Richard Hamer) wrote in message . com...
Hello,
I know this question has been addressed a few years ago, but wanted to
check on the current regulations.

I have a downstairs toilet whose waste goes directly into a soil pipe
running down into the concrete floor. I would like to replace the
toilet and add a basin, but there is no easy plumbing route for the
basin waste.

Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

Also, is it desirable to do this, or is it the kind of thing that gets
surveyors twitchy when I eventually come to sell the house?

Thanks,
Richard

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

--
Grunff

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:39:28 +0100, Grunff strung
together this:

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

Or sink the WC pan into the floor.....
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Richard Hamer" wrote in message
om...
Hello,
I know this question has been addressed a few years ago, but wanted to
check on the current regulations.

I have a downstairs toilet whose waste goes directly into a soil pipe
running down into the concrete floor. I would like to replace the
toilet and add a basin, but there is no easy plumbing route for the
basin waste.

Is it still acceptable to route the basin waste directly into the
toilet waste pipe, and if so where can I get such connectors (and what
are they called?!?)

Also, is it desirable to do this, or is it the kind of thing that gets
surveyors twitchy when I eventually come to sell the house?

Thanks,
Richard

This is not really a serious answer to your problem but the plumbers might
find it interesting.

Last year I visited Tyntesfield, the Victorian pile south of Bristol that
the National Trust bought for £24,000,000 and are now asking for squillions
more to refurbish.

In the only toilet that I found, the drain from the hand wash basin was led
around the wall and into the 'throne' between the wooden seat and the
flushing rim!

I wonder whether this will be preserved.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:39:28 +0100, Grunff wrote:

N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

Go for a Japanese (or in some areas, French) toilet, with the hole in
the floor and two places to put your feet.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Grunff wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

As long as the top of the water level in the cistern is at or below
the water level in the sink trap it will work. That gives satisfactory
sink and cistern levels in most cases. You cant use this setup if your
sink's below the cistern.

If the water height difference is only small, and the plumbing long,
emptying would be slower, but usually sink is near loo.

Also if you have the trap below the top of the cistern you may need to
drill a hole in the cistern to take the sink pipe. Also some cisterns
have the wrong type of overflow for this setup. So its not as
straightforward as the more conventional setup.

According to folks that have grey water systems feeding the loo
cistern, the detergent content in the sink water increases the time
intervals between bowl cleaning.


Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Grunff wrote in message
...
N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

As long as the top of the water level in the cistern is at or below
the water level in the sink trap it will work. That gives satisfactory
sink and cistern levels in most cases. You cant use this setup if your
sink's below the cistern.

If the water height difference is only small, and the plumbing long,
emptying would be slower, but usually sink is near loo.

Also if you have the trap below the top of the cistern you may need to
drill a hole in the cistern to take the sink pipe. Also some cisterns
have the wrong type of overflow for this setup. So its not as
straightforward as the more conventional setup.

According to folks that have grey water systems feeding the loo
cistern, the detergent content in the sink water increases the time
intervals between bowl cleaning.

If the basin was not used much, the toilet cistern may run out of water. You
need at normal water supply to the cistern in case. Then how do you
prioritise? How do you use fresh water to fill when no grey water? having a
normal ballcock will mean fresh and grey water fill at the same time. You
would need a separate grey water tank.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:29:40 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:39:28 +0100, Grunff wrote:

N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

Go for a Japanese (or in some areas, French) toilet, with the hole in
the floor and two places to put your feet.

Have a button, which when pressed, raises the (motorised) basin upwards so it can drain into the
cistern. Preferably accompanied by a cool futuristic whirring noise and maybe a few pretty flashing
lights (blue of course ;-)

Andy Hall wrote:

Go for a Japanese (or in some areas, French) toilet, with the hole in
the floor and two places to put your feet.


Hmmm... Doesn't really appeal, you know?

--
Grunff

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:29:40 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Go for a Japanese (or in some areas, French) toilet, with the hole
in the floor and two places to put your feet.

Or Chinese, actually thats quite posh for public loos in rural China.
Personally I find the squat position for defecating much more
comfortable than sitting, it is after all the natural position.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

--


Regards

John


"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Grunff wrote in message
...
N. Thornton wrote:

Or you could direct sink waste into toilet cistern, and have your
cistern overflow go down the pan. Reduces water use and avoids the
problem you mention.

I like that idea - but how do you do it when most cistern rims are
higher than the trap? Mount your basin really high?

As long as the top of the water level in the cistern is at or below
the water level in the sink trap it will work. That gives satisfactory
sink and cistern levels in most cases. You cant use this setup if your
sink's below the cistern.

If the water height difference is only small, and the plumbing long,
emptying would be slower, but usually sink is near loo.

Also if you have the trap below the top of the cistern you may need to
drill a hole in the cistern to take the sink pipe. Also some cisterns
have the wrong type of overflow for this setup. So its not as
straightforward as the more conventional setup.

According to folks that have grey water systems feeding the loo
cistern, the detergent content in the sink water increases the time
intervals between bowl cleaning.


Regards, NT


---
All of my outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release Date: 19/07/2004

On 20 Jul 2004 20:30:41 GMT, Huge wrote:

Personally I find the squat position for defecating much more
comfortable than sitting, it is after all the natural position.

Dying of typhoid's "natural", too.

I shan't be doing that any time soon, either.

Neither shall I, I've have had at least two courses of jabs for
Typhoid. Cholera is another matter, IIRC the jab for that isn't
particulary effective or long lasting...

Of course the only part of me to touch anything in these facilities
was the soles of my shoes and I followed all the normal precautions of
what not to eat/drink when in less well sanitised areas of the world.
In 3 months of traveling through rural China, Thailand, Malaysia, Bali
I only got the squitters once and I put that down to an OD of chilli
in Thailand. I now can't eat chillis without setting of really rather
powerful hicoughs.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"John" wrote in message ...
Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

Why would you describe grey water recycling system as a bodge? I think
it should be common practice, our present setups are pointlessly
wasteful, and using grey water in loo cisterns has a proven history of
working fine.

What a surveyor thinks of it is going to depends on level of
knowledge, and for the ignorant ones, whether you point out that its a
grey water recycling system. In reality water recycling is a positive
feature.


Regards, NT

"John" wrote in message
...
Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would
anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

There are off the shelf greywater re-cycling systems around. In the BENELUX
countries it is standard in new builds to have a large tank under the ground
to collect rainwater from the roof.

There are a few packaged waste water units, I recall they are mostly
German. There is an American shower waste that is copper with a spiral of
pipe around the outside. The waster shower water spirals around the outside
of the waste pipe and passes heat to the incoming cold shower water in
effect it extends your cylinder size with making it larger.
http://www.endlessshower.com/ This unit really works. If you are clever
enough you can spiral soft copper around a large copper pipes and solder it
up.

It is effective as the hot shower waste water is dumped at the same time as
you are inputting cold water. You can dump a bath full of water and if no
one is using incoming water then it is wasted, unless it is stored in an
insulated tank.

Also concentrating on using less water, when on a meter, is very wise. We
spend as much on water as on gas, yet we all go ape about gas boiler/system
efficiencies and forget the water bills. Most water appliances, electrical,
toilets, basins (do you really need a large wash basin?) , etc can be low
usage. Power showers do not have to be 15 litres/min, 10 and less will do
as the power force of the water against the skin is what people want not so
much the volume. Environmentalist are lobbying ministers to restrict power
showers. Also restrict water volume into basins and the likes, where high
flows means more goes down the drain.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:02:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"John" wrote in message
...
Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would
anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

There are off the shelf greywater re-cycling systems around. In the BENELUX
countries it is standard in new builds to have a large tank under the ground
to collect rainwater from the roof.

There are a few packaged waste water units, I recall they are mostly
German. There is an American shower waste that is copper with a spiral of
pipe around the outside. The waster shower water spirals around the outside
of the waste pipe and passes heat to the incoming cold shower water in
effect it extends your cylinder size with making it larger.
http://www.endlessshower.com/ This unit really works.

Do you have one or is it just that the web site says so?


Also concentrating on using less water, when on a meter, is very wise. We
spend as much on water as on gas, yet we all go ape about gas boiler/system
efficiencies and forget the water bills. Most water appliances, electrical,
toilets, basins (do you really need a large wash basin?) , etc can be low
usage. Power showers do not have to be 15 litres/min, 10 and less will do
as the power force of the water against the skin is what people want not so
much the volume.

You may do. Not everybody else does. Multiple head showers would
not sell if your hypothesis were true.

Environmentalist are lobbying ministers to restrict power
showers. Also restrict water volume into basins and the likes, where high
flows means more goes down the drain.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 21 Jul 2004 03:54:12 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

"John" wrote in message ...
Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

Why would you describe grey water recycling system as a bodge? I think
it should be common practice, our present setups are pointlessly
wasteful, and using grey water in loo cisterns has a proven history of
working fine.

What a surveyor thinks of it is going to depends on level of
knowledge, and for the ignorant ones, whether you point out that its a
grey water recycling system. In reality water recycling is a positive
feature.


Regards, NT

No doubt that this would work. One could redirect waste water from
baths, showers and handbasins into a tank and use it for toilet
flushing. To do it properly so that it is not intrusive and does
not look like a bodge is going to require some work. Then there is
the issue that filtering and a pump is going to be required, so it is
not without maintenance and running cost.

It may be positive to you. To other people it represents re-use of
dirty water and be a turn off with respect to buying a house,
especially if done badly.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On 21 Jul 2004 03:54:12 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:
"John" wrote in message ...

Toby gave a good response. Bear in mind that houses get sold - would anyone
want to buy a house with some of the weird bodges suggested?

Well done Toby.

Why would you describe grey water recycling system as a bodge? I think
it should be common practice, our present setups are pointlessly
wasteful, and using grey water in loo cisterns has a proven history of
working fine.

What a surveyor thinks of it is going to depends on level of
knowledge, and for the ignorant ones, whether you point out that its a
grey water recycling system. In reality water recycling is a positive
feature.


Regards, NT

No doubt that this would work. One could redirect waste water from
baths, showers and handbasins into a tank and use it for toilet
flushing. To do it properly so that it is not intrusive and does
not look like a bodge is going to require some work. Then there is
the issue that filtering and a pump is going to be required, so it is
not without maintenance and running cost.

It may be positive to you. To other people it represents re-use of
dirty water and be a turn off with respect to buying a house,
especially if done badly.

I know. Some will like it, most wont... if you have a collection of
features like that you may get a buyer that loves it. Just one such
feature would turn 99% of buyers off probably. Shame folk are so
shallow.

Regards, NT

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:02:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

There are off the shelf greywater re-cycling systems around. In the BENELUX
countries it is standard in new builds to have a large tank under the ground
to collect rainwater from the roof.

There are a few packaged waste water units, I recall they are mostly
German. There is an American shower waste that is copper with a spiral of
pipe around the outside. The waster shower water spirals around the outside
of the waste pipe and passes heat to the incoming cold shower water in
effect it extends your cylinder size with making it larger.
http://www.endlessshower.com/ This unit really works.

Do you have one or is it just that the web site says so?

Actually some folks have gone thru the calculations and hes right this
time, its an excellant idea. Its a simple cross flow heat exchanger:
warm waste preheats the cold supply so less hot is needed. Cuts hot
use quite a bit.

ISTR paybacks of about 6 months. I posted on a thread about it
somewhere, not sure which ng though.


Also concentrating on using less water, when on a meter, is very wise. We
spend as much on water as on gas, yet we all go ape about gas boiler/system
efficiencies and forget the water bills. Most water appliances, electrical,
toilets, basins (do you really need a large wash basin?) , etc can be low
usage. Power showers do not have to be 15 litres/min, 10 and less will do
as the power force of the water against the skin is what people want not so
much the volume.

You may do. Not everybody else does. Multiple head showers would
not sell if your hypothesis were true.

maybe, maybe not... prestige and image is big for most buyers.

Regards, NT

"IMM" wrote in message ...

If the basin was not used much, the toilet cistern may run out of water. You
need at normal water supply to the cistern in case. Then how do you
prioritise? How do you use fresh water to fill when no grey water? having a
normal ballcock will mean fresh and grey water fill at the same time. You
would need a separate grey water tank.


You've got 2 fills, the mains with ballcock as usual, plus sink waste.
So it fills even if you never wash your paws.

With mains fill at full speed, there is grey water use for a minute or
so after flush. If you want to capture 100% of grey for longer you can
slow the mains fill, if you wish. Very simple, works. No tank, or all
the costs associated with it.


Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
Andy Hall wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:02:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

There are off the shelf greywater re-cycling systems around. In the
BENELUX
countries it is standard in new builds to have a large tank under the
ground
to collect rainwater from the roof.

There are a few packaged waste water units, I recall they are mostly
German. There is an American shower waste that is copper with a spiral
of
pipe around the outside. The waster shower water spirals around the
outside
of the waste pipe and passes heat to the incoming cold shower water in
effect it extends your cylinder size with making it larger.
http://www.endlessshower.com/ This unit really works.

Do you have one or is it just that the web site says so?

Actually some folks have gone thru the calculations and hes right this
time,

Right all the time.

its an excellant idea. Its a simple cross flow heat exchanger:
warm waste preheats the cold supply so less hot is needed. Cuts hot
use quite a bit.

ISTR paybacks of about 6 months. I posted on a thread about it
somewhere, not sure which ng though.


Also concentrating on using less water, when on a meter, is very wise.
We
spend as much on water as on gas, yet we all go ape about gas
boiler/system
efficiencies and forget the water bills. Most water appliances,
electrical,
toilets, basins (do you really need a large wash basin?) , etc can be
low
usage. Power showers do not have to be 15 litres/min, 10 and less will
do
as the power force of the water against the skin is what people want
not so
much the volume.

You may do. Not everybody else does. Multiple head showers would
not sell if your hypothesis were true.

maybe, maybe not... prestige and image is big for most buyers.

Regards, NT