"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
Principle. That being that in most occasions I'd not keep a receipt for
groceries. So what then?

But you did.

How prescient of you.

Send it to them.

And stop bothering us with your petty, hypothetical 'principles' that
don't even apply in your case.

You seem to me the major cause of all the wasted bandwidth in this thread.
Especially since most of your stuff simply isn't accurate.

Got any evidence of that? If so, what?

What, that you're thick as **** in the neck of a bottle? guffaw

I'll take that as a 'no' then.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Harold Davis" wrote in message
. ..
"Norman Wells" wrote in
:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Harold Davis" wrote in
message ...

Norman, don't you get the point I'm making? If there's a contract
for the additional parking, how much parking does it say is
allowed?

There is no defined amount of extra parking you can have. The
contract to pay the extra £75 applies even if you stay just one
minute over. After that, ...

After what?

After the initial period of 1 hour or whatever is allowed before the
excess charge is payable has expired, of course.

No time limit was specified, so you can stay as long as you like.

No you can't. You no longer have permission to remain there and are
then trespassing.

the contract has run its course and it becomes a matter of trespass.

Well it would do if the contract had a time limit. It doesn't.

The contract has a time limit of whatever is allowed as specified on
the signage,

Do you really think that a time limit is specified on the sign?

Always. It will say 'Parking limited to 1 hour' or similar.

And it will say that overstaying that period will cost £75 or similar.
Meaning that they explicitly allow you to stay longer than the period.
And they don't put a time limit on that.

No, it's a contract term to which you've agreed by parking. Overstay by any time at
all and you're liable for the £75. You are not entitled to overstay by any amount,
whether you pay the £75 or not. The owner gives you no permission to do that. You
are consequently trespassing.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Harold Davis" wrote in message
. ..
"Norman Wells" wrote in
:

You've had one hour's parking for £5. You've had any extra that your
car has been there for £75. As agreed.

"Any extra" - you don't get it.

In addition, your car is not authorised to be there over the first 1
hour, so is trespassing and can be removed.

Well what did the "contract" in which you agreed to pay £75 entitle you to
do then? You *are* "authorised".

You're not listening.

No, you are most certainly not entitled to do anything. You have agreed to
pay a charge if you overstay by however little.

Or however long.

No. Any overstay is a trespass. Any overstay renders you liable to pay the charge
of £75 for overstaying. It does not buy you any extra time atr all.

"tim....." wrote in message
...
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
"Harold Davis" wrote in message
...
Fredxxx wrote in :
On 18/10/2015 16:37, Harold Davis wrote:

Say a company charges £5 for an hour's parking and says there's a £75
fine for staying any longer. They can't issue enforceable fines or
any
other penalty, because they're not a public body, so they call it a
"contract charge", or some such bilge, and they put up signs saying
that when you park there you "agree" to it. That is typical of what's
happening all over the country.

If it's an amount for transgressing by staying longer than an hour,
that's a penalty clause and is unenforceable.

Their only claim could be for breach of contract or for trespass, both
meaning you didn't leave before the hour was up, causing them a loss.

You're missing the point between a charge and a loss. If the charge
wasn't advertised, then I agree with you, the site-owner could only
obtain his loss. In this case the parking is a service at an advertised
rate. By parking there you agree to that, it is a contract, not one of
consequential loss from parking in that spot.

What consideration are they offering for £75?

The parking that you've had, and whatever aditional parking the owner of the land
is prepared to tolerate.

If your view is correct, then say you park there for a fortnight and they
clamp you. What right do they have to do that? You haven't broken any
contract. You're just exercising your rights under the contract (by
staying longer than a hour) and waiting for information on how to pay the
charge (£75).

You are trespassing. The owner of the land is entitled to relieve that trespass
by force if necessary. He can remove your vehicle.

Really?

the last time I was involved in trying to sold this problem we were told that you
can't "get it" removed unless you can show it has been dumped, and part of that
process involved writing to the registered keeper and giving him a reasonable time
(several weeks) to reply and claim his car (or not).

Without a court order that is probably true, on private land at least.

During that time you could do SFA.

No. For all the time the vehicle is there over the time agreed in the contract it
represents a trespass for which accumulating damages can be awarded

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Harold Davis" wrote in
message ...
Fredxxx wrote in :

On 11/10/2015 18:05, Harold Davis wrote:

How long a period of parking are you buying for the additional
"charge",
colloquially referred to as a "fine"? Is that specified on the
"contract"?

Usually for the duration you park there. It's free if you leave
before
the allotted time. Why?

Say a company charges £5 for an hour's parking and says there's a £75
fine for staying any longer. They can't issue enforceable fines or
any
other penalty, because they're not a public body, so they call it a
"contract charge", or some such bilge, and they put up signs saying
that
when you park there you "agree" to it. That is typical of what's
happening all over the country.

and how do you think private parking should be enforced

With proper boom gates that force the users of
the carpark to do what you require them to do.

In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till slip
that
ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the exit
boom gate.

bear in mind that not all of the car parks that need to be enforced
are this model some are "authorised persons only may park here"

Trivial to use a badge system for those.

what's a badge system?

The car has a badge/sticker/RFID thing that the system
has to see before letting that car into the carpark.

(often residential parking that doesn't have the means to install
complicated barriers),

Nothing complicated about a boom gate and

There is if it require PP and the local council say "no"

Plenty of alternatives.

all of which require PP

Nope, gates don't.

There is if it requires the permission of the management company and
they say "no"

Then they get to wear the illegal use of the parking.

They don't care

They couldn't give a Toss about it

Then time they were replaced.

Do you understand?
This is not their problem, it's the resident's and as far as many PAs are
concerned - they can go hang!

Then time they were replaced.

and then there's the issue of providing 24/7 maintenance cover so that
people don't get stuck in or out

Don't need anything like that. Just an override that
any of those who are allowed to park there can use.

and how do you stop AN Other overriding it?

By only being overridable from inside one of the units.

Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

- many companies will just say "no access outside standard working hours
plus a couple either side", but you can't do that with private
residential parking.

Override works fine.

so it's CFU as parking control then, isn't it

Wrong when only residents can use it.

People *reasonably* except to be able to enter/
leave their own property at time day or night.

Trivially easy to ensure that.

they all have the room to install one of those,
particularly one of the ones that use a badge
that sits on the dash of the car or the windscreen.

The technology to open the barrier is irrelevant, It's the barrier
itself which is the problem.

Nope, we've been doing those for centurys now.

Often called gates.

Even easier to use now that they are so easy to automate now.

but they still suffer from miscreant parkers who need to be
discouraged

Would you be happy if someone just decided to park their car on your
drive for the day whilst they were out shopping

That is illegal and you can just get them towed.

No it's not,

Corse it is. You aren't legally free to park in
anyone's driveway you feel like parking in.

It's not illegal.

Corse it is. You aren't legally entitled to drive into
the driveway of any place you feel like doing that.

Its trespass.

and no you can't

Corse you can.

No you bloody well can't (legally anyway)

Corse you can.

You are free to remove it from your property if its trespassing.

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till slip
that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the
exit boom gate.

You don't need to charge up front. Just have the means to stop cars
leaving if the parking hasn't been validated.

Another local store has a large LED sign which says 'welcome (car reg)'
when you arrive and 'goodbye (car reg)' when you leave. So would be
trivial to make it tell you you've not paid or whatever.

How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have, or haven't shopped in the store?

No-one pays for their goods with their car reg - some pay with cash

They are free to wave the till slip at the scanner at the boom gate on
the way out.

Thus wasn't the type of system he was describing

We were discussing what they should have instead.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"tim....." wrote in message

the last time I was involved in trying to sold this problem we were told
that you can't "get it" removed unless you can show it has been dumped,
and part of that process involved writing to the registered keeper and
giving him a reasonable time (several weeks) to reply and claim his car
(or not).

Without a court order that is probably true, on private land at least.

During that time you could do SFA.

No. For all the time the vehicle is there over the time agreed in the
contract it represents a trespass for which accumulating damages can
be awarded.

It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay by any
amount.

The reason you have to pay at all to park on someone else's land is that it gives
you authorisation, which alleviates what would otherwise be trespass. It's what
underlies it all.

The £75 may be clearly stated as due if you overstay the time, but
that's all.

And by then your authorisation has expired, meaning that the situation reverts to a
trespass.

In article ,
tim..... wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once
at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't parked,
forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tim..... wrote:
Another local store has a large LED sign which says 'welcome (car reg)'
when you arrive and 'goodbye (car reg)' when you leave. So would be
trivial to make it tell you you've not paid or whatever.

How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have, or haven't shopped in the store?

By the same method the car park company knows if you've made a suitable
purchase. In the case of this Lidl store, the checkout validates it. When
they remember to ask, of course. With other stores you enter the details
yourself.

--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you have,
or haven't shopped in the store?

It ought to be possible for that to tie in with the till system, just
as, in Canterbury, there is a multistory that recognises your number
plate, and that is what you type in to the machine when you pay for
your parking. And it then recognises your number plate on the way out
and raises the barrier.

Quite. Lots of ways to do it.

But the point I was making was if the 'system' had told me there was a
problem at the time, I'd have sorted it there and then. And not get a
demand for a fine many days later. When under most circumstances I'd have
discarded a grocery receipt.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay
by any amount.

Then it's an unreasonable contract and not enforceable. If it were £10 for
an hour beyond the free time or whatever, that might be considered
reasonable.

Plenty actually signed agreements which included PPI etc. But they were
unreasonable, so void.

--
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay
by any amount.

Then it's an unreasonable contract and not enforceable.

You are perfectly free to enter into whatever 'unreasonable' contracts you want to.
The only contracts that can't be enforced are those that contain terms that are
'unfair' where 'unfair' is defined in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. How much
you agree to pay is excluded from being 'unfair' by The Unfair Terms in Consumer
Contracts Regulations 1999.

If it were £10 for
an hour beyond the free time or whatever, that might be considered
reasonable.

What you think reasonable is irrelevant.

Plenty actually signed agreements which included PPI etc. But they were
unreasonable, so void.

No, they were 'unfair' according to the law. Being 'unreasonable' is not unlawful.

Norman Wells wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Norman Wells wrote

It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay
by any amount.

Then it's an unreasonable contract and not enforceable.

You are perfectly free to enter into whatever 'unreasonable' contracts you
want to. The only contracts that can't be enforced are those that contain
terms that are 'unfair' where 'unfair' is defined in the Unfair Contract
Terms Act 1977.

Wrong, as always.

How much you agree to pay is excluded from being 'unfair' by The Unfair
Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

Wrong, as always.

If it were £10 for an hour beyond the free time or whatever, that might
be considered reasonable.

What you think reasonable is irrelevant.

You in spades.

Plenty actually signed agreements which included PPI etc. But they were
unreasonable, so void.

No, they were 'unfair' according to the law.

Wrong, as always.

Being 'unreasonable' is not unlawful.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

He didn’t say anything about unlawful.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"tim....." wrote in message

the last time I was involved in trying to sold this problem we were told
that you can't "get it" removed unless you can show it has been dumped,
and part of that process involved writing to the registered keeper and
giving him a reasonable time (several weeks) to reply and claim his car
(or not).

Without a court order that is probably true, on private land at least.

During that time you could do SFA.

No. For all the time the vehicle is there over the time agreed in the
contract it represents a trespass for which accumulating damages can
be awarded.

It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay by any
amount.

Yes, we agree on that.

The reason you have to pay at all to park on someone else's land is that it
gives you authorisation, which alleviates what would otherwise be trespass.
It's what underlies it all.

The money has nothing to do with their giving you permission. They do
that because they choose to.

You park according to whatever conditions the landowner prescribes. If you are
there with his permission then it's not trespass. If you don't have his permission
then it is. If he wants you to pay, and you want to park, then you have to pay,
otherwise you don't have his permission.

The £75 may be clearly stated as due if you overstay the time, but
that's all.

And by then your authorisation has expired, meaning that the situation
reverts to a trespass.

No it doesn't. They've given you permission to stay after one hour for
a payment of £75 - for as long as you like. They've not mentioned a
time limit after the one hour, so there is none.

No, that's your misunderstanding. The payment is not for an extension of the
contract but for breach of it. Permission to park expires at the end of the
prescribed period. At that time you have to pay the excess charge agreed in your
contract, but you get nothing extra for it. Moreover, you are then trespassing, and
action can be taken against you for that.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
et...
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"tim....." wrote in message

No. For all the time the vehicle is there over the time agreed in the
contract it represents a trespass for which accumulating damages can
be awarded.

It say that, does it, on the "contract" that you have "agreed" to?

Nope. The contract says that you're liable to pay £75 if you overstay by
any amount.

Yes, we agree on that.

The reason you have to pay at all to park on someone else's land is that it
gives you authorisation, which alleviates what would otherwise be trespass.
It's what underlies it all.

The money has nothing to do with their giving you permission. They do
that because they choose to.

You park according to whatever conditions the landowner prescribes. If you
are there with his permission then it's not trespass. If you don't have his
permission then it is. If he wants you to pay, and you want to park, then
you have to pay, otherwise you don't have his permission.

The É £75 may be clearly stated as due if you overstay the time, but
that's all.

And by then your authorisation has expired, meaning that the situation
reverts to a trespass.

No it doesn't. They've given you permission to stay after one hour for
a payment of £75 - for as long as you like. They've not mentioned a
time limit after the one hour, so there is none.

No, that's your misunderstanding. The payment is not for an extension of the
contract but for breach of it. Permission to park expires at the end of the
prescribed period. At that time you have to pay the excess charge agreed in
your contract, but you get nothing extra for it. Moreover, you are then
trespassing, and action can be taken against you for that.

The contract says (typically):

1) Parking for one hour costs £5 (for example)

2) If you overstay the one hour we will charge an extra fee of £75.

That's all. Nothing about being in breach, of overstaying, no time
limit, no nothing.

Actually, the normal notice is more like this one:

http://www.mayne.org/wp-content/uplo...erlooville.jpg

'Failure to comply' with any of the regulations, including overstaying your welcome,
means you can expect a Parking Charge Notice for the amount stated.

'Failure to comply' is breaching your contract, and it's made abundantly clear that
is what the extra fee is for.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Norman Wells
wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...

The contract says (typically):

1) Parking for one hour costs £5 (for example)

2) If you overstay the one hour we will charge an extra fee of £75.

That's all. Nothing about being in breach, of overstaying, no time
limit, no nothing.

Actually, the normal notice is more like this one:

http://www.mayne.org/wp-content/uplo...-park-waterloo
ville.jpg

'Failure to comply' with any of the regulations, including overstaying your
welcome, means you can expect a Parking Charge Notice for the amount stated.

It doesn't say you have to pay it, though.

But you do.

'Failure to comply' is breaching your contract, and it's made abundantly
clear that is what the extra fee is for.

What contract? There's nothing on the notice about any "contract".

It's the contract you enter into when parking on someone else's land where the
conditions under which you may do so, as on the above sign, are adequately
displayed.

Do I really have to go through basic and elementary law all over again? Or might
you actually read the thread and do a couple of simple searches?

"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
"Harold Davis" wrote in
message ...
Fredxxx wrote in :
On 18/10/2015 16:37, Harold Davis wrote:

Say a company charges £5 for an hour's parking and says there's a £75
fine for staying any longer. They can't issue enforceable fines or
any
other penalty, because they're not a public body, so they call it a
"contract charge", or some such bilge, and they put up signs saying
that when you park there you "agree" to it. That is typical of what's
happening all over the country.

If it's an amount for transgressing by staying longer than an hour,
that's a penalty clause and is unenforceable.

Their only claim could be for breach of contract or for trespass,
both
meaning you didn't leave before the hour was up, causing them a loss.

You're missing the point between a charge and a loss. If the charge
wasn't advertised, then I agree with you, the site-owner could only
obtain his loss. In this case the parking is a service at an
advertised
rate. By parking there you agree to that, it is a contract, not one
of
consequential loss from parking in that spot.

What consideration are they offering for £75?

The parking that you've had, and whatever aditional parking the owner of
the land is prepared to tolerate.

If your view is correct, then say you park there for a fortnight and
they
clamp you. What right do they have to do that? You haven't broken any
contract. You're just exercising your rights under the contract (by
staying longer than a hour) and waiting for information on how to pay
the
charge (£75).

You are trespassing. The owner of the land is entitled to relieve that
trespass by force if necessary. He can remove your vehicle.

Really?

the last time I was involved in trying to sold this problem we were told
that you can't "get it" removed unless you can show it has been dumped,
and part of that process involved writing to the registered keeper and
giving him a reasonable time (several weeks) to reply and claim his car
(or not).

Without a court order that is probably true, on private land at least.

During that time you could do SFA.

No. For all the time the vehicle is there over the time agreed in the
contract it represents a trespass for which accumulating damages can be
awarded

The occurrences I am referring to here are, ex-residents who leave their car
behind in the car park "promising" to come back for it later

there is no contract of charges that they have agreed to

tim

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , tim.....
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till slip
that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the
exit boom gate.

You don't need to charge up front. Just have the means to stop cars
leaving if the parking hasn't been validated.

Another local store has a large LED sign which says 'welcome (car reg)'
when you arrive and 'goodbye (car reg)' when you leave. So would be
trivial to make it tell you you've not paid or whatever.

How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have, or haven't shopped in the store?

It ought to be possible for that to tie in with the till system, just
as, in Canterbury, there is a multistory that recognises your number
plate, and that is what you type in to the machine when you pay for
your parking.

the whole point is, Dave is looking for a system that doesn't require you to
enter your number plate into some point of sale/payment terminal.

he wants that part to be automatic



tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have,
or haven't shopped in the store?

It ought to be possible for that to tie in with the till system, just
as, in Canterbury, there is a multistory that recognises your number
plate, and that is what you type in to the machine when you pay for
your parking. And it then recognises your number plate on the way out
and raises the barrier.

Quite. Lots of ways to do it.

But the point I was making was if the 'system' had told me there was a
problem at the time,

how can the system tell the difference between

someone who "parked there without shopping and is willing to accept the
consequences"

and someone who shopped, but forgot to register their details?

tim

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Harold Davis" wrote in
message ...
Fredxxx wrote in
:

On 11/10/2015 18:05, Harold Davis wrote:

How long a period of parking are you buying for the additional
"charge",
colloquially referred to as a "fine"? Is that specified on the
"contract"?

Usually for the duration you park there. It's free if you leave
before
the allotted time. Why?

Say a company charges £5 for an hour's parking and says there's a
£75
fine for staying any longer. They can't issue enforceable fines or
any
other penalty, because they're not a public body, so they call it a
"contract charge", or some such bilge, and they put up signs saying
that
when you park there you "agree" to it. That is typical of what's
happening all over the country.

and how do you think private parking should be enforced

With proper boom gates that force the users of
the carpark to do what you require them to do.

In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till slip
that
ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the exit
boom gate.

bear in mind that not all of the car parks that need to be enforced
are this model some are "authorised persons only may park here"

Trivial to use a badge system for those.

what's a badge system?

The car has a badge/sticker/RFID thing that the system
has to see before letting that car into the carpark.

(often residential parking that doesn't have the means to install
complicated barriers),

Nothing complicated about a boom gate and

There is if it require PP and the local council say "no"

Plenty of alternatives.

all of which require PP

Nope, gates don't.

There is if it requires the permission of the management company and
they say "no"

Then they get to wear the illegal use of the parking.

They don't care

They couldn't give a Toss about it

Then time they were replaced.

Do you understand?
This is not their problem, it's the resident's and as far as many PAs are
concerned - they can go hang!

Then time they were replaced.

There are far worse "crimes" that MA's commit that cause their tenants to
love to replace them - and fail to be able to do so.

The law in this area is complicated you don't just replace them by saying "I
divorce you" three times.

and then there's the issue of providing 24/7 maintenance cover so that
people don't get stuck in or out

Don't need anything like that. Just an override that
any of those who are allowed to park there can use.

and how do you stop AN Other overriding it?

By only being overridable from inside one of the units.

Oh so that person has to accept being worked up when No 4 wants to leave for
work at 5 am, and no 7 comes back from a theatre visit at 1pm

Well good on that person You won't see me volunteering (and IME, I am one
of the more "interested" members of a block)


Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

- many companies will just say "no access outside standard working
hours plus a couple either side", but you can't do that with private
residential parking.

Override works fine.

so it's CFU as parking control then, isn't it

Wrong when only residents can use it.

People *reasonably* except to be able to enter/
leave their own property at time day or night.

Trivially easy to ensure that.

they all have the room to install one of those,
particularly one of the ones that use a badge
that sits on the dash of the car or the windscreen.

The technology to open the barrier is irrelevant, It's the barrier
itself which is the problem.

Nope, we've been doing those for centurys now.

Often called gates.

Even easier to use now that they are so easy to automate now.

but they still suffer from miscreant parkers who need to be
discouraged

Would you be happy if someone just decided to park their car on your
drive for the day whilst they were out shopping

That is illegal and you can just get them towed.

No it's not,

Corse it is. You aren't legally free to park in
anyone's driveway you feel like parking in.

It's not illegal.

Corse it is. You aren't legally entitled to drive into
the driveway of any place you feel like doing that.

Its trespass.

which is not illegal

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once
at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't parked,
forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

they wont if they have a resale value

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
Another local store has a large LED sign which says 'welcome (car reg)'
when you arrive and 'goodbye (car reg)' when you leave. So would be
trivial to make it tell you you've not paid or whatever.

How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have, or haven't shopped in the store?

By the same method the car park company knows if you've made a suitable
purchase.

That's done by you registering your details at the cash desk

the part that you forgot to do

which AIUI you have repeatedly said in your posts here, should be
"automated"

How?

tim

Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.

I suppose you can't blame them for trying.

Does show that Mr Wells many posts about legally enforceable contracts
doesn't seem to be shared by someone who actually knows.

But does make you wonder if they even read my reply to them.

--
*Broken pencils are pointless.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.

I suppose you can't blame them for trying.

Does show that Mr Wells many posts about legally enforceable contracts
doesn't seem to be shared by someone who actually knows.

How does it do that then?

tim..... wrote
Tim Streater wrote
tim..... wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till slip
that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the
exit boom gate.

You don't need to charge up front. Just have the means to stop cars
leaving if the parking hasn't been validated.

Another local store has a large LED sign which says 'welcome (car reg)'
when you arrive and 'goodbye (car reg)' when you leave. So would be
trivial to make it tell you you've not paid or whatever.

How on earth is it trivial for the ANPR camera system to know that you
have, or haven't shopped in the store?

It ought to be possible for that to tie in with the till system, just
as, in Canterbury, there is a multistory that recognises your number
plate, and that is what you type in to the machine when you pay for
your parking.

the whole point is, Dave is looking for a system that doesn't require you
to enter your number plate into some point of sale/payment terminal.

he wants that part to be automatic

So my approach will work fine.

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim..... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim..... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim..... wrote
Harold Davis wrote
Fredxxx wrote
Harold Davis wrote

How long a period of parking are you buying for the additional
"charge",
colloquially referred to as a "fine"? Is that specified on the
"contract"?

Usually for the duration you park there. It's free if you leave
before
the allotted time. Why?

Say a company charges £5 for an hour's parking and says there's a
£75
fine for staying any longer. They can't issue enforceable fines or
any
other penalty, because they're not a public body, so they call it a
"contract charge", or some such bilge, and they put up signs saying
that
when you park there you "agree" to it. That is typical of what's
happening all over the country.

and how do you think private parking should be enforced

With proper boom gates that force the users of
the carpark to do what you require them to do.

In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a
full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the
till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that
ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once at the exit
boom gate.

bear in mind that not all of the car parks that need to be enforced
are this model some are "authorised persons only may park here"

Trivial to use a badge system for those.

what's a badge system?

The car has a badge/sticker/RFID thing that the system
has to see before letting that car into the carpark.

(often residential parking that doesn't have the means to install
complicated barriers),

Nothing complicated about a boom gate and

There is if it require PP and the local council say "no"

Plenty of alternatives.

all of which require PP

Nope, gates don't.

There is if it requires the permission of the management company and
they say "no"

Then they get to wear the illegal use of the parking.

They don't care

They couldn't give a Toss about it

Then time they were replaced.

Do you understand?
This is not their problem, it's the resident's and as far as many PAs
are concerned - they can go hang!

Then time they were replaced.

There are far worse "crimes" that MA's commit that cause their tenants to
love to replace them - and fail to be able to do so.

Only because they were stupid enough to not have a proper
contract in place that allows them to be flushed where they
belong when they don't to what they are required to do.

The law in this area is complicated

Nope, not with a proper contract in place it isn't.

you don't just replace them by saying "I divorce you" three times.

But with a proper contract in place, they realise that they
wont be the MA for long if they try pulling that stunt.

and then there's the issue of providing 24/7 maintenance cover so that
people don't get stuck in or out

Don't need anything like that. Just an override that
any of those who are allowed to park there can use.

and how do you stop AN Other overriding it?

By only being overridable from inside one of the units.

Oh so that person has to accept being worked up when No 4 wants to leave
for work at 5 am, and no 7 comes back from a theatre visit at 1pm

Nope. If someone is trying to leave for work at 5am, and the
system wont let them drive out, the worst they have to do is
go back into their unit and use the override and then drive out.

Same with coming back at 1am, the worst they have to do is
walk into their unit with the car still outside the gate, use the
override in the unit to open the gate, then park the car.

Well good on that person You won't see me volunteering (and IME, I am one
of the more "interested" members of a block)

Don't need anyone to volunteer for anything.

Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

- many companies will just say "no access outside standard working
hours plus a couple either side", but you can't do that with private
residential parking.

Override works fine.

so it's CFU as parking control then, isn't it

Wrong when only residents can use it.

People *reasonably* except to be able to enter/
leave their own property at time day or night.

Trivially easy to ensure that.

they all have the room to install one of those,
particularly one of the ones that use a badge
that sits on the dash of the car or the windscreen.

The technology to open the barrier is irrelevant, It's the barrier
itself which is the problem.

Nope, we've been doing those for centurys now.

Often called gates.

Even easier to use now that they are so easy to automate now.

but they still suffer from miscreant parkers who need to be
discouraged

Would you be happy if someone just decided to park their car on your
drive for the day whilst they were out shopping

That is illegal and you can just get them towed.

No it's not,

Corse it is. You aren't legally free to park in
anyone's driveway you feel like parking in.

It's not illegal.

Corse it is. You aren't legally entitled to drive into
the driveway of any place you feel like doing that.

Its trespass.

which is not illegal

Corse it is. That's why you can call the cops and have them
removed if they refuse to leave when you tell them to.

tim..... wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
tim..... wrote

In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once
at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't parked,
forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

they wont if they have a resale value

They don't, because the carpark doesn't allow you to park there
all day when you can wave a till slip at the scanner on exit.

If you do want to use the carpark and do more than just
use the Lidl shop, you can just buy the cheapest item in
the lidl shop. No point in offering to pay such a small
amount to someone walking home from the shop and
risk getting caught flouting the system, just buy the
cheapest item in the lidl shop.

In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.

I suppose you can't blame them for trying.

Does show that Mr Wells many posts about legally enforceable contracts
doesn't seem to be shared by someone who actually knows.

How does it do that then?

You've gone on and on that they can legally charge you anything they want
for parking. As by parking there you've accepted their terms without
question.

So why would they ever reduce the amount they demanded as a penalty?

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/10/2015 18:03, tim..... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once
at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't parked,
forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

they wont if they have a resale value

They will.
Where I live it is common to find still valid parking stickers stuck to
the ticket machines. Passing over tickets with time still on them is a
fairly common thing.

Andy

In article , AndyW
wrote:
On 21/10/2015 18:03, tim..... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , tim.....
wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark,
provide a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark
and can wave the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the
barcode on the till slip that ensures that a particular till slip
can only be used once at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't
parked, forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

they wont if they have a resale value

They will. Where I live it is common to find still valid parking stickers
stuck to the ticket machines. Passing over tickets with time still on
them is a fairly common thing.

which is why you often have to enter your registraton number which gets
printed on the ticket.

--
Please note new email address:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.


Illiterates.

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result
of somebody waiving something; a fee etc.

As written above it could be interpreted, at a pinch of an offer
by them, to pay you £20.00, for your trouble.

It might be worth pursuing this line, by explaining that you're
happy to accept a cheque for the above amount.


michael adams

....

michael adams wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.

Illiterates.

Yes.

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result of somebody
waiving something; a fee etc.

As written above it could be interpreted, at a pinch of an offer by them,
to pay you £20.00, for your trouble.

Nope.

It might be worth pursuing this line, by explaining that you're happy to
accept a cheque for the above amount.

They won't, you watch.

They won't even understand the claim.

In message , michael adams
writes

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result
of somebody waiving something; a fee etc.

smile That immediately made me think of Morse, an episode [1] of
which I watched last night.

[1] Complete with Patricia Hodge, always a bonus. Must watch some
Rumpole.
--
Graeme

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , michael adams writes

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result
of somebody waiving something; a fee etc.

smile That immediately made me think of Morse, an episode [1] of which I watched
last night.

Dunno, lately I find Morse a bit irritating myself. Miserable sod.
There's one good episode where Lewis catches him out in something,
having previously been corrected himself; not that old misery guts
can even raise a smile.


[1] Complete with Patricia Hodge, always a bonus. Must watch some Rumpole.

ISTR that's the one with Patsy Byrne, again typecast as "nursey"; same
as in "Blackadder" with Miranda Richardson.


Complete box sets of Rumpole (new) go for around £20 from Amazon
marketplace sellers. The original BBC Play for Today episode used
to be avilable singly, as well, but I can't seem to find it.


michael adams









--
Graeme

In article ,
AndyW wrote:
they wont if they have a resale value

They will.
Where I live it is common to find still valid parking stickers stuck to
the ticket machines. Passing over tickets with time still on them is a
fairly common thing.

If it's a council carpark the tickets usually say non transferrable (or do
round here). Although just how they'd prove it, I'm not sure.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"AndyW" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2015 18:03, tim..... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
In the case of Lidl, charge everyone on entry to the carpark, provide
a full refund of that charge when they leave the carpark and can wave
the till slip at the exit boom gate. And have the barcode on the till
slip that ensures that a particular till slip can only be used once
at the exit boom gate.

I see a black market in used till slips from people who haven't parked,
forming very very quickly

No need - many just leave them in the trolley.

they wont if they have a resale value

They will.
Where I live it is common to find still valid parking stickers stuck to
the ticket machines. Passing over tickets with time still on them is a
fairly common thing.

At home we don't have to pay for parking but in the Car parks in N. Yorks
where we have to pay in advance, we hand them over to incoming cars if we
have any time leftover.


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
AndyW wrote:
they wont if they have a resale value

They will.
Where I live it is common to find still valid parking stickers stuck to
the ticket machines. Passing over tickets with time still on them is a
fairly common thing.

If it's a council carpark the tickets usually say non transferrable (or do
round here). Although just how they'd prove it, I'm not sure.

Quite

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Just had another e-mail from the car park company:-

Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge.

We of course are happy to waiver additional charges and accept a
reduced
charge of £20.00 as full and final settlement for this charge.

I suppose you can't blame them for trying.

Does show that Mr Wells many posts about legally enforceable contracts
doesn't seem to be shared by someone who actually knows.

How does it do that then?

You've gone on and on that they can legally charge you anything they want
for parking. As by parking there you've accepted their terms without
question.

So why would they ever reduce the amount they demanded as a penalty?

because, as has already been explained to you, by more than one person -

enforcing their legally enforceable charge will cost them more than that
charge.

So they are cutting their losses and telling you they will accept a lower
amount because it saves them aggro

It's the problem of employers paying out in bogus discrimination claims
because paying is cheaper than fighting - in reverse

tim

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , michael adams
writes

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result
of somebody waiving something; a fee etc.

smile That immediately made me think of Morse, an episode [1] of which
I watched last night.

Dunno, lately I find Morse a bit irritating myself. Miserable sod.
There's one good episode where Lewis catches him out in something,
having previously been corrected himself; not that old misery guts
can even raise a smile.


[1] Complete with Patricia Hodge, always a bonus. Must watch some
Rumpole.

ISTR that's the one with Patsy Byrne, again typecast as "nursey"; same
as in "Blackadder" with Miranda Richardson.


Complete box sets of Rumpole (new) go for around £20 from Amazon
marketplace sellers.

seems to be on continuous loop on "Drama"

tim

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , michael adams
writes

Waive is the verb, waiver is a noun. A waiver is the result
of somebody waiving something; a fee etc.

smile That immediately made me think of Morse, an episode [1] of which I watched
last night.

Dunno, lately I find Morse a bit irritating myself. Miserable sod.
There's one good episode where Lewis catches him out in something,
having previously been corrected himself; not that old misery guts
can even raise a smile.


[1] Complete with Patricia Hodge, always a bonus. Must watch some Rumpole.

ISTR that's the one with Patsy Byrne, again typecast as "nursey"; same
as in "Blackadder" with Miranda Richardson.


Complete box sets of Rumpole (new) go for around £20 from Amazon
marketplace sellers.

seems to be on continuous loop on "Drama"


Freeview - virtually unwatchable IMO by virtue of commercials every
ten minutes - is about the best advert for cheap DVD box sets its
possible to imagine.


michael adams

....





tim